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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 05 2011 01:36 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:21 Mercury- wrote:On May 05 2011 00:21 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 00:14 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:28 Yaotzin wrote:On May 04 2011 23:19 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:17 clownzim wrote:On May 04 2011 23:15 R3N wrote:
Strange thors aren't widely used against P but still gets nerfed :o really hope blizzard know what they're doing here. atm p has no "counter" to thors... if terran get like 10-12 thors gg toss :D Carriers, magic boxed voids, chargelots work too if your economy is much better (which it should be because Thors can't really punish you from taking lots of expos) since you can instantly rebuild with WGates. All of which die to that pesky marine unit that Terrans sometimes build. Make a Colossus or Templar? We're meant to go carrier/void AND collossus or templar to stop thor/marine? How is that supposed to work? Do you have any idea how much that shit costs? Yeah in lategame it's not a problem because you can do that. With a timing push it is a problem. All that expensive stuff you need just can't be got in time. What kind of timing attack do you mean? 1 base Thor rushes only beat extremely greedy sentry expands, and against 8-10 Thor pushes you should have either Colos or Temps to take care of the marines and your choice of anti Thor unit. Well there's several variations on it. Basically it's a 2base Thor/marine push at heart, often with tanks or something else added. If you go collo you can kill the marines, but then the thors finish you off. Same with templar. If you go all out anti-thor units - say mass immortal so even 250mm can't kill them all - then the marines/other stuff kills you. You really need two high tech units to stop it - voids + templar/collo ideally. But of course you can't get that off 2 base. As you say, very early Thors and lategame Thors aren't really a problem. The former just because there isn't really enough oomph, and the latter because you can afford both the high tech units you need. It's the timing of it that kills you. So basically it's a random timing. How's it any different than 6gate pushes?
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On May 05 2011 01:50 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:41 Bagi wrote:On May 05 2011 01:36 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 01:21 Mercury- wrote:On May 05 2011 00:21 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 00:14 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:28 Yaotzin wrote:On May 04 2011 23:19 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:17 clownzim wrote:On May 04 2011 23:15 R3N wrote:
Strange thors aren't widely used against P but still gets nerfed :o really hope blizzard know what they're doing here. atm p has no "counter" to thors... if terran get like 10-12 thors gg toss :D Carriers, magic boxed voids, chargelots work too if your economy is much better (which it should be because Thors can't really punish you from taking lots of expos) since you can instantly rebuild with WGates. All of which die to that pesky marine unit that Terrans sometimes build. Make a Colossus or Templar? We're meant to go carrier/void AND collossus or templar to stop thor/marine? How is that supposed to work? Do you have any idea how much that shit costs? Yeah in lategame it's not a problem because you can do that. With a timing push it is a problem. All that expensive stuff you need just can't be got in time. What kind of timing attack do you mean? 1 base Thor rushes only beat extremely greedy sentry expands, and against 8-10 Thor pushes you should have either Colos or Temps to take care of the marines and your choice of anti Thor unit. Well there's several variations on it. Basically it's a 2base Thor/marine push at heart, often with tanks or something else added. If you go collo you can kill the marines, but then the thors finish you off. Same with templar. If you go all out anti-thor units - say mass immortal so even 250mm can't kill them all - then the marines/other stuff kills you. You really need two high tech units to stop it - voids + templar/collo ideally. But of course you can't get that off 2 base. As you say, very early Thors and lategame Thors aren't really a problem. The former just because there isn't really enough oomph, and the latter because you can afford both the high tech units you need. It's the timing of it that kills you. Funnily enough I've never seen this imba 2-base thor push in action. In fact the only time I've seen thors used in a decisive manner TvP has to be when Thorzain did it. And trust me, as someone who tries to incorporate alot of thors into his play, I've seen and tried many things. Some replays would be cool to evaluate whether this push has any merits, because theorycrafting only goes so far. It's pretty common on ladder. I don't know of replays/vods other than the Thorzain one. There was like one pro game of the void/3gate push back when they got nerfed. But it exploded in popularity on ladder, and it was indeed OP. It got nerfed. Thors are rightly being too.
Oh right, on the ladder. I guess I'll have to take this incredebly vague testimony and description as proof that its OP, despite the fact that such play has not showing up in any pro play.
You mention the Thorzain push, but I'm not sure if you realize that what Thorzain did was nothing what you described? He didn't have a single marine, and instead opted for a timing with hellion/thor/viking and a raven. He did an excellent job at denying scouting with his raven/viking which allowed him to survive the early game and catch his opponents less prepared. "2 base thor marine based timing push" doesn't even begin to describe what he did.
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On May 05 2011 01:58 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:36 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 01:21 Mercury- wrote:On May 05 2011 00:21 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 00:14 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:28 Yaotzin wrote:On May 04 2011 23:19 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:17 clownzim wrote:On May 04 2011 23:15 R3N wrote:
Strange thors aren't widely used against P but still gets nerfed :o really hope blizzard know what they're doing here. atm p has no "counter" to thors... if terran get like 10-12 thors gg toss :D Carriers, magic boxed voids, chargelots work too if your economy is much better (which it should be because Thors can't really punish you from taking lots of expos) since you can instantly rebuild with WGates. All of which die to that pesky marine unit that Terrans sometimes build. Make a Colossus or Templar? We're meant to go carrier/void AND collossus or templar to stop thor/marine? How is that supposed to work? Do you have any idea how much that shit costs? Yeah in lategame it's not a problem because you can do that. With a timing push it is a problem. All that expensive stuff you need just can't be got in time. What kind of timing attack do you mean? 1 base Thor rushes only beat extremely greedy sentry expands, and against 8-10 Thor pushes you should have either Colos or Temps to take care of the marines and your choice of anti Thor unit. Well there's several variations on it. Basically it's a 2base Thor/marine push at heart, often with tanks or something else added. If you go collo you can kill the marines, but then the thors finish you off. Same with templar. If you go all out anti-thor units - say mass immortal so even 250mm can't kill them all - then the marines/other stuff kills you. You really need two high tech units to stop it - voids + templar/collo ideally. But of course you can't get that off 2 base. As you say, very early Thors and lategame Thors aren't really a problem. The former just because there isn't really enough oomph, and the latter because you can afford both the high tech units you need. It's the timing of it that kills you. So basically it's a random timing. How's it any different than 6gate pushes?
It's not random wtf. It comes at the point where Terran has enough bio that you HAVE to get aoe, and it includes Thors which counteract any aoe you get. Any later and you can afford the tech to kill it;any earlier and the marines don't have the critical mass required.
btw 6gate isn't a random timing rofl.
Oh right, on the ladder. I guess I'll have to take this incredebly vague testimony and description as proof that its OP, despite the fact that such play has not showing up in any pro play.
I never said it was proof it was OP.
You mention the Thorzain push, but I'm not sure if you realize that what Thorzain did was nothing what you described? He didn't have a single marine, and instead opted for a timing with hellion/thor/viking and a raven. He did an excellent job at denying scouting with his raven/viking which allowed him to survive the early game and catch his opponents less prepared. "2 base thor marine based timing push" doesn't even begin to describe what he did.
My bad, misremembered. So there are 2 builds toss can't really stop, both based around Thors. Funny that.
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If a protoss wants to open with templar tech to show off the new and improved archon and gets hit with a thor timing push, they'll be up shit creek. The energy change makes it possible to deal with that timing without canceling your expo and scraping together as many immortals as you can get. In other words, being able to defend with that build without having to sink a ton of resources into a different tech tree and delay the composition P is looking to get before taking a third.
I do see the thor being pretty laughable in the late game because of this, but we'll see. I think a simpler solution is to have hardened shields remove the "hold still while I kill the shit out of you" effect of the strike cannons, but that's just me.
I don't mind the thor in pvt for the most part, but some of those timing pushes are just downright silly. And I would love to see protoss tech in that (and every) match up flow a little more, rather than the mad collosi dash and then retro-tech to phoenixes. If templar tech makes a good opening, then we'll see a lot of things bloom in protoss style, namely warp prisms and more observers since getting them won't cut into your unit composition too much in the mid game and we might actually start seeing more drops and mid game aggression from people who aren't the top protoss players *cough*whitera*cough*
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I don't understand the thor change at all, it didn't seem like a problem to me. I really hope that change gets revoked, and they are just testing it out to see if it results in more templars and less collosus in TvP. I'd like to see replays where the thor was broken because of strike cannon, as I find it very slow and easily stopped.
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United States7483 Posts
Thors are still the highest single target dps unit in the game, and they still tear shit up, even without strike cannons. Just EMP the high templar late game and laugh, or for extreme baller points, EMP your own Thors so he can't feedback you.
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On May 05 2011 02:04 Whitewing wrote:or for extreme baller points, EMP your own Thors so he can't feedback you.
twice
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On May 05 2011 02:04 Whitewing wrote:
Thors are still the highest single target dps unit in the game, and they still tear shit up, even without strike cannons. Just EMP the high templar late game and laugh, or for extreme baller points, EMP your own Thors so he can't feedback you.
Hightest single target DPS doesn't mean squat in big battles of low HP Units. Right now in Sc2 you basically mass Low Tech Units and add some High Tech Units. Thors suck vs mass lowtech Units and don't have the range to be able to reach the Hightech Units in the back.
Yes in some timing pushes when both armies are still pretty small Thors are great. Other then that ? I Don't think so.
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On May 05 2011 02:00 Yaotzin wrote:
My bad, misremembered. So there are 2 builds toss can't really stop, both based around Thors. Funny that.
No, actually you are just claiming that there are 2 builds that protoss cannot stop while trying to reason this change.
And you have no real proof for either.
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ok.. now that archons are usable.. im probably cool (begrudgingly) with the amulet nerf
i love that zealots will be able to charge in front, archons behind them, and stalkers behind them. very natural flowing army (like the other races now).
very pleased that thors will be feedbackable because they were sooo hard to deal with before
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Umm, dude, trust me, there really is a super secret Thor build that Protoss cannot defend again, I can't show you the replays but trust me it definitely exists
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On May 05 2011 02:00 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:58 Mercury- wrote:On May 05 2011 01:36 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 01:21 Mercury- wrote:On May 05 2011 00:21 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 00:14 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:28 Yaotzin wrote:On May 04 2011 23:19 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:17 clownzim wrote:On May 04 2011 23:15 R3N wrote:
Strange thors aren't widely used against P but still gets nerfed :o really hope blizzard know what they're doing here. atm p has no "counter" to thors... if terran get like 10-12 thors gg toss :D Carriers, magic boxed voids, chargelots work too if your economy is much better (which it should be because Thors can't really punish you from taking lots of expos) since you can instantly rebuild with WGates. All of which die to that pesky marine unit that Terrans sometimes build. Make a Colossus or Templar? We're meant to go carrier/void AND collossus or templar to stop thor/marine? How is that supposed to work? Do you have any idea how much that shit costs? Yeah in lategame it's not a problem because you can do that. With a timing push it is a problem. All that expensive stuff you need just can't be got in time. What kind of timing attack do you mean? 1 base Thor rushes only beat extremely greedy sentry expands, and against 8-10 Thor pushes you should have either Colos or Temps to take care of the marines and your choice of anti Thor unit. Well there's several variations on it. Basically it's a 2base Thor/marine push at heart, often with tanks or something else added. If you go collo you can kill the marines, but then the thors finish you off. Same with templar. If you go all out anti-thor units - say mass immortal so even 250mm can't kill them all - then the marines/other stuff kills you. You really need two high tech units to stop it - voids + templar/collo ideally. But of course you can't get that off 2 base. As you say, very early Thors and lategame Thors aren't really a problem. The former just because there isn't really enough oomph, and the latter because you can afford both the high tech units you need. It's the timing of it that kills you. So basically it's a random timing. How's it any different than 6gate pushes? It's not random wtf. It comes at the point where Terran has enough bio that you HAVE to get aoe, and it includes Thors which counteract any aoe you get. Any later and you can afford the tech to kill it;any earlier and the marines don't have the critical mass required. Show nested quote +
Oh right, on the ladder. I guess I'll have to take this incredebly vague testimony and description as proof that its OP, despite the fact that such play has not showing up in any pro play.
I never said it was proof it was OP. Show nested quote +
You mention the Thorzain push, but I'm not sure if you realize that what Thorzain did was nothing what you described? He didn't have a single marine, and instead opted for a timing with hellion/thor/viking and a raven. He did an excellent job at denying scouting with his raven/viking which allowed him to survive the early game and catch his opponents less prepared. "2 base thor marine based timing push" doesn't even begin to describe what he did.
My bad, misremembered. So there are 2 builds toss can't really stop, both based around Thors. Funny that.
any proof ?i havent seen terrans crushing every protoss going mass thors ( i tried mass thor on ladder and usualy got crushed bio works way better for me) except 2 thorzain games with questionable protoss reponse (they definately were surprised by that tactic)
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It was supposed to be a sideways change, not a nerf.
Call it whatever you like, "sideways change". To me it was nothing more then a reconsideration of the magnitude to how hard gateways were being nerfed. A reaction likely caused from the recent uproar of Protoss QQ on Bnet.
Maybe Blizzard think Zergs are whiners too.
Zerg are whiners, whats your point? Is Protoss QQ supposed to be more legit then Zerg QQ, why does one broken thing get addressed before another? (one thats had a pin on it for months)
Voids got nerfed because of a void push that existed for a couple of weeks. It's actually not that hard to prove a certain push is virtually unstoppable.
Explain these arcane methods of which you speak. Then I'll tell you to just "be more creative", "just find a way around it", "don't let them get mass thors", or "insert lame metagame excuse here"
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Protoss drops are bad because small groups of protoss units can't fight small groups of the other races' armies, and either can't catch up to workers in any efficient fashion (zealots, compare with speedlings) or else take forever to kill them (stalkers, compare to stimmed MM or hellions). The exception is storm dropping, but that's a second-to-last kind of late game tech, coming well after you need to be well stabilized against a mid-game thor push.
There's also practically no utility to getting more than one warp prism so any protoss drop/warp-in into the enemy base is going to be at least partially a suicide drop.
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On May 05 2011 02:07 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:04 Whitewing wrote:
Thors are still the highest single target dps unit in the game, and they still tear shit up, even without strike cannons. Just EMP the high templar late game and laugh, or for extreme baller points, EMP your own Thors so he can't feedback you. Hightest single target DPS doesn't mean squat in big battles of low HP Units. Right now in Sc2 you basically mass Low Tech Units and add some High Tech Units. Thors suck vs mass lowtech Units and don't have the range to be able to reach the Hightech Units in the back. Yes in some timing pushes when both armies are still pretty small Thors are great. Other then that ? I Don't think so.
Erm, the only thing that thors arent great against are zealots. Every other "low hp" (or "lowtech") unit that protoss has thors are great against o.O
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On May 05 2011 02:15 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:07 s3rp wrote:On May 05 2011 02:04 Whitewing wrote:
Thors are still the highest single target dps unit in the game, and they still tear shit up, even without strike cannons. Just EMP the high templar late game and laugh, or for extreme baller points, EMP your own Thors so he can't feedback you. Hightest single target DPS doesn't mean squat in big battles of low HP Units. Right now in Sc2 you basically mass Low Tech Units and add some High Tech Units. Thors suck vs mass lowtech Units and don't have the range to be able to reach the Hightech Units in the back. Yes in some timing pushes when both armies are still pretty small Thors are great. Other then that ? I Don't think so. Erm, the only thing that thors arent great against are zealots. Every other "low hp" (or "lowtech") unit that protoss has thors are great against o.O
They are pretty mediocre against masses of Stalker just like against masses of Roaches. Combine that with Zealots its not pretty.
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Canada13407 Posts
On May 05 2011 02:10 ridonkulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:00 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 01:58 Mercury- wrote:On May 05 2011 01:36 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 01:21 Mercury- wrote:On May 05 2011 00:21 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 00:14 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:28 Yaotzin wrote:On May 04 2011 23:19 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:17 clownzim wrote:
[quote]
atm p has no "counter" to thors... if terran get like 10-12 thors gg toss :D Carriers, magic boxed voids, chargelots work too if your economy is much better (which it should be because Thors can't really punish you from taking lots of expos) since you can instantly rebuild with WGates. All of which die to that pesky marine unit that Terrans sometimes build. Make a Colossus or Templar? We're meant to go carrier/void AND collossus or templar to stop thor/marine? How is that supposed to work? Do you have any idea how much that shit costs? Yeah in lategame it's not a problem because you can do that. With a timing push it is a problem. All that expensive stuff you need just can't be got in time. What kind of timing attack do you mean? 1 base Thor rushes only beat extremely greedy sentry expands, and against 8-10 Thor pushes you should have either Colos or Temps to take care of the marines and your choice of anti Thor unit. Well there's several variations on it. Basically it's a 2base Thor/marine push at heart, often with tanks or something else added. If you go collo you can kill the marines, but then the thors finish you off. Same with templar. If you go all out anti-thor units - say mass immortal so even 250mm can't kill them all - then the marines/other stuff kills you. You really need two high tech units to stop it - voids + templar/collo ideally. But of course you can't get that off 2 base. As you say, very early Thors and lategame Thors aren't really a problem. The former just because there isn't really enough oomph, and the latter because you can afford both the high tech units you need. It's the timing of it that kills you. So basically it's a random timing. How's it any different than 6gate pushes? It's not random wtf. It comes at the point where Terran has enough bio that you HAVE to get aoe, and it includes Thors which counteract any aoe you get. Any later and you can afford the tech to kill it;any earlier and the marines don't have the critical mass required.
Oh right, on the ladder. I guess I'll have to take this incredebly vague testimony and description as proof that its OP, despite the fact that such play has not showing up in any pro play.
I never said it was proof it was OP.
You mention the Thorzain push, but I'm not sure if you realize that what Thorzain did was nothing what you described? He didn't have a single marine, and instead opted for a timing with hellion/thor/viking and a raven. He did an excellent job at denying scouting with his raven/viking which allowed him to survive the early game and catch his opponents less prepared. "2 base thor marine based timing push" doesn't even begin to describe what he did.
My bad, misremembered. So there are 2 builds toss can't really stop, both based around Thors. Funny that. any proof ? i mean i havent seen terrans crushing every protoss going mass thors except 2 thorazin games with questionable protoss reponse (they definately were surprised by that tactic)
People misunderstand: the issue wasnt Thors, it was the strike cannons. the Strike cannons made the thors extremely hard to kill since you couldnt really have anything to kill them effectively when the strike cannon removes the high dps units you have. Making this initial 2 thor cannon marine push come later makes it more likely to hold an early expansion or to kill the thors during that early push. They also do not want a 2 strike cannon thor walking around with 100 energy for the spell. So they decided 150 wherein it pushes the initial cannon push farther back. The problem is that 150 seems a little too high for more than one usage :/ I think 100 energy could be useful with a 45 second cooldown but we will see how this turns out
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im okay with buffin archons, but i think the way they do it, is wrong. just another no-micro-attack-move unit, for the protoss deathball.
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On May 05 2011 01:36 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:21 Mercury- wrote:On May 05 2011 00:21 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 00:14 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:28 Yaotzin wrote:On May 04 2011 23:19 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:17 clownzim wrote:On May 04 2011 23:15 R3N wrote:
Strange thors aren't widely used against P but still gets nerfed :o really hope blizzard know what they're doing here. atm p has no "counter" to thors... if terran get like 10-12 thors gg toss :D Carriers, magic boxed voids, chargelots work too if your economy is much better (which it should be because Thors can't really punish you from taking lots of expos) since you can instantly rebuild with WGates. All of which die to that pesky marine unit that Terrans sometimes build. Make a Colossus or Templar? We're meant to go carrier/void AND collossus or templar to stop thor/marine? How is that supposed to work? Do you have any idea how much that shit costs? Yeah in lategame it's not a problem because you can do that. With a timing push it is a problem. All that expensive stuff you need just can't be got in time. What kind of timing attack do you mean? 1 base Thor rushes only beat extremely greedy sentry expands, and against 8-10 Thor pushes you should have either Colos or Temps to take care of the marines and your choice of anti Thor unit. Well there's several variations on it. Basically it's a 2base Thor/marine push at heart, often with tanks or something else added. If you go collo you can kill the marines, but then the thors finish you off. Same with templar. If you go all out anti-thor units - say mass immortal so even 250mm can't kill them all - then the marines/other stuff kills you. You really need two high tech units to stop it - voids + templar/collo ideally. But of course you can't get that off 2 base. As you say, very early Thors and lategame Thors aren't really a problem. The former just because there isn't really enough oomph, and the latter because you can afford both the high tech units you need. It's the timing of it that kills you.
What do you mean, you can easily take 2 tech paths off of 2 bases, MC has taken 3 before in some of his games. You don't need a ton of each, you just need 2-3 void rays to draw the air prioritizing shots which do no damage at all, and you immediately win.
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On May 05 2011 02:19 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:36 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 01:21 Mercury- wrote:On May 05 2011 00:21 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 00:14 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:28 Yaotzin wrote:On May 04 2011 23:19 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:17 clownzim wrote:On May 04 2011 23:15 R3N wrote:
Strange thors aren't widely used against P but still gets nerfed :o really hope blizzard know what they're doing here. atm p has no "counter" to thors... if terran get like 10-12 thors gg toss :D Carriers, magic boxed voids, chargelots work too if your economy is much better (which it should be because Thors can't really punish you from taking lots of expos) since you can instantly rebuild with WGates. All of which die to that pesky marine unit that Terrans sometimes build. Make a Colossus or Templar? We're meant to go carrier/void AND collossus or templar to stop thor/marine? How is that supposed to work? Do you have any idea how much that shit costs? Yeah in lategame it's not a problem because you can do that. With a timing push it is a problem. All that expensive stuff you need just can't be got in time. What kind of timing attack do you mean? 1 base Thor rushes only beat extremely greedy sentry expands, and against 8-10 Thor pushes you should have either Colos or Temps to take care of the marines and your choice of anti Thor unit. Well there's several variations on it. Basically it's a 2base Thor/marine push at heart, often with tanks or something else added. If you go collo you can kill the marines, but then the thors finish you off. Same with templar. If you go all out anti-thor units - say mass immortal so even 250mm can't kill them all - then the marines/other stuff kills you. You really need two high tech units to stop it - voids + templar/collo ideally. But of course you can't get that off 2 base. As you say, very early Thors and lategame Thors aren't really a problem. The former just because there isn't really enough oomph, and the latter because you can afford both the high tech units you need. It's the timing of it that kills you. What do you mean, you can easily take 2 tech paths off of 2 bases, MC has taken 3 before in some of his games. You don't need a ton of each, you just need 2-3 void rays to draw the air prioritizing shots which do no damage at all, and you immediately win.
If they're a terrible player who can't even focus fire, then that might work.
MC has made templar, colossi and void/phoenix from 2 base? Replay/vod please.
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EPT
