Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong. It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully.
On May 05 2011 01:14 kickinhead wrote: What is different in those two Examples other than Protoss having a much easier time to play defensively and get to the Deathball against Zerg than Terran does against Protoss, making it even more powerful?
Terran has Bunkers and PF and Tanks and Repair. For a Protoss attacking a Meching Terran directly is suicide.
And Protoss has Force-Fields, Cannons, Wall-in's/Wall-Off's and Zerg's Units are mostly low-ranged or Melee, you really think that's easier?
Besides; Meching requires a lot of Gas and it takes a longer time to build up than other Terran-Builds AND Toss has a much easier time scouting a Terran than Zerg does against Toss.
But besides you being wrong, the point you're making isn't even relevant. Tyler argued that there is no Problem that a certain race has an almost unbeatable Unit-composition but then differentiated in his Opinion when talking about PvT rather than PvZ, which leads me to believe that his opinion isn't only flaved, but also very biased towards Protoss.
The energy change on Thors was a big deal that needed to be done. Thors countering colossus and immortals was ridiculous. And Voidrays aren't a viable option past 1 base vs 1 base play.
If that's a 2-3 base situation, carriers are very viable. No kidding, they are slow to build but large groups of thors are even slower, and carriers may sometimes win at a 1:2 ratio. Thors are even kind enough to prioritise air over ground, even though they do pitiful damage to armored air.
On May 04 2011 23:15 R3N wrote: Strange thors aren't widely used against P but still gets nerfed :o really hope blizzard know what they're doing here.
atm p has no "counter" to thors... if terran get like 10-12 thors gg toss :D
Carriers, magic boxed voids, chargelots work too if your economy is much better (which it should be because Thors can't really punish you from taking lots of expos) since you can instantly rebuild with WGates.
All of which die to that pesky marine unit that Terrans sometimes build.
Make a Colossus or Templar?
We're meant to go carrier/void AND collossus or templar to stop thor/marine? How is that supposed to work? Do you have any idea how much that shit costs?
Yeah in lategame it's not a problem because you can do that. With a timing push it is a problem. All that expensive stuff you need just can't be got in time.
What kind of timing attack do you mean? 1 base Thor rushes only beat extremely greedy sentry expands, and against 8-10 Thor pushes you should have either Colos or Temps to take care of the marines and your choice of anti Thor unit.
Well there's several variations on it. Basically it's a 2base Thor/marine push at heart, often with tanks or something else added. If you go collo you can kill the marines, but then the thors finish you off. Same with templar. If you go all out anti-thor units - say mass immortal so even 250mm can't kill them all - then the marines/other stuff kills you. You really need two high tech units to stop it - voids + templar/collo ideally. But of course you can't get that off 2 base.
As you say, very early Thors and lategame Thors aren't really a problem. The former just because there isn't really enough oomph, and the latter because you can afford both the high tech units you need. It's the timing of it that kills you.
On May 05 2011 01:32 space_yes wrote: If thors > immortals was the issue they would have nerfed strike cannons. This is about HT imo..
Well that would be sad to make Thors be used less so HT's would be great against them if they would be used. It's not like HT's aren't amazing against Terra already .
My problem with the Thor change isn't that it messes with the Immortal/Thor MU, my problem is that having energy means that should you decide to put some thors into your composition... say to deal with Phoenix... and you don't even care about that strike cannon but then you have a bunch of templar move up and nuke em for half their health.
This isn't a situation where like "oooo but the ghost can emp/snipe the templar to keep your thors safe from them", you are talking about trying to protect a slow lumbering unit from a unit with range 9 that warps in with enough energy to nuke it.
I just feel it punishes the player for putting this really cool unit into any composition. I'm just gonna laugh when I see a player 250 his own building or emp their own thor before an engagement.
edit: This feedback vs thors was the original reason the energy bar was removed.
On May 05 2011 01:32 space_yes wrote: If thors > immortals was the issue they would have nerfed strike cannons. This is about HT imo..
This is a nerf to strike cannons. Thors in PvT were very very difficult to deal with, especially when strike cannons nullified any immortals on the field. You'd need to be producing 2 or 3 immortals for every thor to even come close to killing them all off, and the synergy of terran units made any thor all-in incredibly difficult to stop IMO. Giving the protoss another option to use versus thors is a good thing.
It's not really an issue about the high templars, its more giving toss another way to combat thors.
On May 04 2011 23:15 R3N wrote: Strange thors aren't widely used against P but still gets nerfed :o really hope blizzard know what they're doing here.
atm p has no "counter" to thors... if terran get like 10-12 thors gg toss :D
Carriers, magic boxed voids, chargelots work too if your economy is much better (which it should be because Thors can't really punish you from taking lots of expos) since you can instantly rebuild with WGates.
All of which die to that pesky marine unit that Terrans sometimes build.
Make a Colossus or Templar?
We're meant to go carrier/void AND collossus or templar to stop thor/marine? How is that supposed to work? Do you have any idea how much that shit costs?
Yeah in lategame it's not a problem because you can do that. With a timing push it is a problem. All that expensive stuff you need just can't be got in time.
What kind of timing attack do you mean? 1 base Thor rushes only beat extremely greedy sentry expands, and against 8-10 Thor pushes you should have either Colos or Temps to take care of the marines and your choice of anti Thor unit.
Well there's several variations on it. Basically it's a 2base Thor/marine push at heart, often with tanks or something else added. If you go collo you can kill the marines, but then the thors finish you off. Same with templar. If you go all out anti-thor units - say mass immortal so even 250mm can't kill them all - then the marines/other stuff kills you. You really need two high tech units to stop it - voids + templar/collo ideally. But of course you can't get that off 2 base.
As you say, very early Thors and lategame Thors aren't really a problem. The former just because there isn't really enough oomph, and the latter because you can afford both the high tech units you need. It's the timing of it that kills you.
Funnily enough I've never seen this imba 2-base thor push in action. In fact the only time I've seen thors used in a decisive manner TvP has to be when Thorzain did it. And trust me, as someone who tries to incorporate alot of thors into his play, I've seen and tried many things.
Some replays would be cool to evaluate whether this push has any merits, because theorycrafting only goes so far.
I don't really see the synergy between Thors and Bio. Thors often times are kind of in the way of Bio , are too slow to keep up with Bio and need different Upgrades. I don't really see the reason to build them if they even get owned by the same kind of Unit like the rest of my Army.
I know a lot of Terrans are complaining about the Thor change, but the way I see it is this: One feedback can only damage half of the Thor's total HP on a max-energy Thor (please correct me if I'm wrong). If a Terran player incorporates Thors into a fully mech army, then I think most of the time Templars won't even land a feedback before getting pummeled by tanks. If a Terran incorporates a moderate amount of Thors into a biomech army to negate forcefields, then the Protoss has to make choices between storming the bio or feedbacking the Thor. If a Terran goes Thor Ghost + whatever, then obviously he could EMP his own Thors, EMP templars before they get to the Thors, or force the Protoss to use feedback on the Ghost instead of the Thor.
I think the ONLY composition where Terran is truly 100% vulnerable to mass Templar feedbacking is when he goes essentially mass mass Thor (Thorzain style), and IMO that's the wrong way to play the game. It looks cool for a bit but imagine if a Protoss went only mass Voidray and if a Zerg went only mass Brood Lord (Yes I know that there have been many broadcasted matches of players going mass marine/mass stalker/mass roach etc). It would simply look like a game of Fastest Map Possible.
On May 05 2011 01:08 Zato-1 wrote: About time they patched Thors, having them roll over Immortals when Immortals were supposed to be their counter unit was just silly. Will also be nice to see Archons not being such a pushover.
I don't know, aside from owning tanks, Immortals pretty much counter every mech now, and now HTs do too, so yay for more boring bio+ghost play I guess. Can you honestly say that you think Thors were a big problem in PvT and that Protoss were having just too much trouble dealing with the "Terran deathball"?
Yes, I can honestly say Thors were a big problem in PvT because there was no way to counter them. You saw Thors and said, "Damn, he made Thors. What do I do now?" There was no right answer. Thors were strong vs. everything. I'm sorry if you thought this particular playstyle was fun because Thors could roll over every Protoss unit there is.
On May 05 2011 01:31 kickinhead wrote: And Protoss has Force-Fields, Cannons, Wall-in's/Wall-Off's and Zerg's Units are mostly low-ranged or Melee, you really think that's easier?
Besides; Meching requires a lot of Gas and it takes a longer time to build up than other Terran-Builds AND Toss has a much easier time scouting a Terran than Zerg does against Toss.
But besides you being wrong, the point you're making isn't even relevant. Tyler argued that there is no Problem that a certain race has an almost unbeatable Unit-composition but then differentiated in his Opinion when talking about PvT rather than PvZ, which leads me to believe that his opinion isn't only flaved, but also very biased towards Protoss.
Protoss is still the Race with most Gas requirement in Tech or Units. That Drops or Nydus isn't a common tactics, shows that (std.) Zerg neglect that. Zerg aren't even using every of their options, so their QQ-tears are hard to swallow. Drops Play is more or less a BO win against any techheavy Protoss style. Infestor wreck havoc these days on ladder in all Matchups. And all this, while a Straight up Macrogame against Zerg is still impossible to win for both Terran and Protoss.
It funny that Idra crys (SotG) that he can't scout the base of Protoss or Terran and has to guess. While both other races have to do the same at certain stages. A Zerg already has Mapcontrol if he isn't retarded, with better scouting they would be unbeatable. If Zerg macromechanic wasn't as strong as it is both Protoss and Terran would play more macroorientated and less Timing/Deathball-based. Trading Armies with Zerg never really is in favor of Protoss so them staying behind a tight Wall is very understandable.
On May 04 2011 23:15 R3N wrote: Strange thors aren't widely used against P but still gets nerfed :o really hope blizzard know what they're doing here.
atm p has no "counter" to thors... if terran get like 10-12 thors gg toss :D
Carriers, magic boxed voids, chargelots work too if your economy is much better (which it should be because Thors can't really punish you from taking lots of expos) since you can instantly rebuild with WGates.
All of which die to that pesky marine unit that Terrans sometimes build.
Make a Colossus or Templar?
We're meant to go carrier/void AND collossus or templar to stop thor/marine? How is that supposed to work? Do you have any idea how much that shit costs?
Yeah in lategame it's not a problem because you can do that. With a timing push it is a problem. All that expensive stuff you need just can't be got in time.
What kind of timing attack do you mean? 1 base Thor rushes only beat extremely greedy sentry expands, and against 8-10 Thor pushes you should have either Colos or Temps to take care of the marines and your choice of anti Thor unit.
Well there's several variations on it. Basically it's a 2base Thor/marine push at heart, often with tanks or something else added. If you go collo you can kill the marines, but then the thors finish you off. Same with templar. If you go all out anti-thor units - say mass immortal so even 250mm can't kill them all - then the marines/other stuff kills you. You really need two high tech units to stop it - voids + templar/collo ideally. But of course you can't get that off 2 base.
As you say, very early Thors and lategame Thors aren't really a problem. The former just because there isn't really enough oomph, and the latter because you can afford both the high tech units you need. It's the timing of it that kills you.
Funnily enough I've never seen this imba 2-base thor push in action. In fact the only time I've seen thors used in a decisive manner TvP has to be when Thorzain did it. And trust me, as someone who tries to incorporate alot of thors into his play, I've seen and tried many things.
Some replays would be cool to evaluate whether this push has any merits, because theorycrafting only goes so far.
It's pretty common on ladder. I don't know of replays/vods other than the Thorzain one.
There was like one pro game of the void/3gate push back when they got nerfed. But it exploded in popularity on ladder, and it was indeed OP. It got nerfed. Thors are rightly being too.
I'm really disappointed that it took months of QQ to get warpgates nerfed, and then just a few weeks of QQ back from Protoss to lessen the nerf.
Yet watching just a few games of Thorzain raping toss with Thors instantly gets them nerfed HARD (100 energy = ~200sec), because all of a sudden Toss are like "HOLY SHIT WE CANT BEAT THIS" yet Zerg have been complaining about the Protoss deathball for months now with pretty much the same attitude.
Thors becoming popular in PvT still haven't had enough time to be fully studied, why nerf Thors when there hasn't been enough time to extend all Protoss strategies to find a way to counter them? At least, not enough time that Zerg was given to study how to beat the deathball. (we're talking months here, Feb-April)
Nobody incorporates Thors to negate Forcefields. With their slow Movement Speed that would be just silly. Having your Thor slowly walk around during the battle to kill Forcefields.
On May 05 2011 01:50 Jojo131 wrote: I'm really disappointed that it took months of QQ to get warpgates nerfed, and then just a few weeks of QQ back from Protoss to lessen the nerf.
It was supposed to be a sideways change, not a nerf.
Yet watching just a few games of Thorzain raping toss with Thors instantly gets them nerfed HARD (100 energy = ~200sec), because all of a sudden Toss are like "HOLY SHIT WE CANT BEAT THIS" yet Zerg have been complaining about the Protoss deathball for months now with pretty much the same attitude.
Maybe Blizzard think Zergs are whiners too.
Thors becoming popular in PvT still haven't had enough time to be fully studied, why nerf Thors when there hasn't been enough time to extend all Protoss strategies to find a way to counter them? At least, not enough time that Zerg was given to study how to beat the deathball. (we're talking months here, Feb-April)
Voids got nerfed because of a void push that existed for a couple of weeks. It's actually not that hard to prove a certain push is virtually unstoppable.
On May 05 2011 01:52 s3rp wrote: Nobody incorporates Thors to negate Forcefields. With their slow Movement Speed that would be just silly. Having your Thor slowly walk around during the battle to kill Forcefields.
I dunno. Ive had more success with a marine/raven/thor all-in than with the tank equivalent all-in, largely because forcefields no longer do anything.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/toddkw/pylon.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/toddkw/archon.jpg)
