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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 05 2011 02:17 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:10 ridonkulous wrote:On May 05 2011 02:00 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 01:58 Mercury- wrote:On May 05 2011 01:36 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 01:21 Mercury- wrote:On May 05 2011 00:21 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 00:14 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:28 Yaotzin wrote:On May 04 2011 23:19 Mercury- wrote:
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Carriers, magic boxed voids, chargelots work too if your economy is much better (which it should be because Thors can't really punish you from taking lots of expos) since you can instantly rebuild with WGates. All of which die to that pesky marine unit that Terrans sometimes build. Make a Colossus or Templar? We're meant to go carrier/void AND collossus or templar to stop thor/marine? How is that supposed to work? Do you have any idea how much that shit costs? Yeah in lategame it's not a problem because you can do that. With a timing push it is a problem. All that expensive stuff you need just can't be got in time. What kind of timing attack do you mean? 1 base Thor rushes only beat extremely greedy sentry expands, and against 8-10 Thor pushes you should have either Colos or Temps to take care of the marines and your choice of anti Thor unit. Well there's several variations on it. Basically it's a 2base Thor/marine push at heart, often with tanks or something else added. If you go collo you can kill the marines, but then the thors finish you off. Same with templar. If you go all out anti-thor units - say mass immortal so even 250mm can't kill them all - then the marines/other stuff kills you. You really need two high tech units to stop it - voids + templar/collo ideally. But of course you can't get that off 2 base. As you say, very early Thors and lategame Thors aren't really a problem. The former just because there isn't really enough oomph, and the latter because you can afford both the high tech units you need. It's the timing of it that kills you. So basically it's a random timing. How's it any different than 6gate pushes? It's not random wtf. It comes at the point where Terran has enough bio that you HAVE to get aoe, and it includes Thors which counteract any aoe you get. Any later and you can afford the tech to kill it;any earlier and the marines don't have the critical mass required.
Oh right, on the ladder. I guess I'll have to take this incredebly vague testimony and description as proof that its OP, despite the fact that such play has not showing up in any pro play.
I never said it was proof it was OP.
You mention the Thorzain push, but I'm not sure if you realize that what Thorzain did was nothing what you described? He didn't have a single marine, and instead opted for a timing with hellion/thor/viking and a raven. He did an excellent job at denying scouting with his raven/viking which allowed him to survive the early game and catch his opponents less prepared. "2 base thor marine based timing push" doesn't even begin to describe what he did.
My bad, misremembered. So there are 2 builds toss can't really stop, both based around Thors. Funny that. any proof ? i mean i havent seen terrans crushing every protoss going mass thors except 2 thorazin games with questionable protoss reponse (they definately were surprised by that tactic) People misunderstand: the issue wasnt Thors, it was the strike cannons. the Strike cannons made the thors extremely hard to kill since you couldnt really have anything to kill them effectively when the strike cannon removes the high dps units you have. Making this initial 2 thor cannon marine push come later makes it more likely to hold an early expansion or to kill the thors during that early push. They also do not want a 2 strike cannon thor walking around with 100 energy for the spell. So they decided 150 wherein it pushes the initial cannon push farther back. The problem is that 150 seems a little too high for more than one usage :/ I think 100 energy could be useful with a 45 second cooldown but we will see how this turns out
Well if the Cannon was the Problem remove the damn thing or at least make it 75/100 or something. Now it's never going to be heard of again. And 2 Strike Cannons definitly won't be a problem . I mean 1 strike Cannons takes ages to do. Once the first one is done the battle most likely will be almost over. A second Strike Cannon if you get your Thors to survive that long would be kind of well not that bad would it be ?
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On May 04 2011 23:55 rmAmnesiac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 23:49 flodeskum wrote:
I think the thor change is reasonable. Thors are just a stupid unit and don't really belong in a game like sc2.
I really don't want to see mech in tvp if said mech involves mostly thors and a few helions. I'd much rather see changes to tanks and marauders to make mech more viable. would you care to explain your post? i'm afraid 'i don't know how to counter them' isn't really a response if that's what you were going to go for.
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Where do you see a balance complaint in there? I just don't like thors as a unit. I hate how they can't be microed, how slow and boring they are and the fact that that they are just walking mammoth tanks. But that's just my opinion of the thor, nothing to do with balance.
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why the f must blizzard try to destroy every single terran strategy involving anything else than bio and tanks.
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On May 05 2011 02:23 Zaixer wrote:
why the f must blizzard try to destroy every single terran strategy involving anything else than bio and tanks.
It really feels like it.
Just watch, people will start utilizing mass Banshees with Raven/Viking support like we've seen a few Terrans already doing then once it gets too popular: "HEY, WHAT YOU GUYS DOING PLAYING WITH STARPORTS? WHY ARENT YOU MAKING MARAUDERS?!"-- Blizzard <3
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Thors getting nerf is the last thing TvP needs. TvP at its current state hugely favours P especially on maps like Tal and Crevasse. P deathball have to be addressed at some point and P ability to chrono units like collo out at double speed have to be corrected too.
Most P rely on timing attack and just A-move their way to win by doing things like FF the ramp... P skill level should be as demanding as it is now right after the removal of amulet and uprising of thor openings. The statistic are showing the better toss players are learning the game instead of 4 gating, 5 gate nexus cancel, 6 gate. These brainless builds getting nullified actually make this game more enjoyable. I have no idea why blizzard wants to make sc2 a game so newbie friendly till its no longer exciting on tournament level. I mean when was the last time you see a normal macro PvZ, PvT on ladder.
For PvZ i think the fundamental problem lies on the chrono boost exponential benefits, P is the only race that can match Z in production and that should never be the case. Constant Chrono on units like collo is ridiculous, it just speeds up the building up of a deathball where P sits behind their natural safely, Unless Z comes out with risky strategies like roach all in, Z will always be behind even if macro is matched due to P units > Z units.
P.S. Building up Collo is 3x faster than building thor army. Dont be ridiculous.
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Templar vs Thor energy is perfectly fair. I still don't really like the change and would prefer they just make strike cannon damage hit the immortal's shield, or make it so you could pick up an immortal with a warp prism while it was being cannon'd. (You can't, I tried it.)
I'm not entirely convinced that Thor needed a change in PvT. The build has really only been popular for a month and it hasn't been dominating tournaments, marauder/medivac hellion is still more widely used.
Templar cost 150 gas to build. Thors cost 200. Using a 150 gas unit to do between 50-200 damage doesn't exactly scream hard counter. Nor is storm/archon going to be good against a thor/mech composition. The only thing i'm a little annoyed at is it's very easy to warp in templar purely for feedback, and it seems a little lame that a protoss can be ready for a thor push simply by having a templar archives built and no upgrades researched.
Long story short, the change is fair but uncreative.
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On May 05 2011 02:20 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:19 statikg wrote:On May 05 2011 01:36 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 01:21 Mercury- wrote:On May 05 2011 00:21 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 00:14 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:28 Yaotzin wrote:On May 04 2011 23:19 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:17 clownzim wrote:On May 04 2011 23:15 R3N wrote:
Strange thors aren't widely used against P but still gets nerfed :o really hope blizzard know what they're doing here. atm p has no "counter" to thors... if terran get like 10-12 thors gg toss :D Carriers, magic boxed voids, chargelots work too if your economy is much better (which it should be because Thors can't really punish you from taking lots of expos) since you can instantly rebuild with WGates. All of which die to that pesky marine unit that Terrans sometimes build. Make a Colossus or Templar? We're meant to go carrier/void AND collossus or templar to stop thor/marine? How is that supposed to work? Do you have any idea how much that shit costs? Yeah in lategame it's not a problem because you can do that. With a timing push it is a problem. All that expensive stuff you need just can't be got in time. What kind of timing attack do you mean? 1 base Thor rushes only beat extremely greedy sentry expands, and against 8-10 Thor pushes you should have either Colos or Temps to take care of the marines and your choice of anti Thor unit. Well there's several variations on it. Basically it's a 2base Thor/marine push at heart, often with tanks or something else added. If you go collo you can kill the marines, but then the thors finish you off. Same with templar. If you go all out anti-thor units - say mass immortal so even 250mm can't kill them all - then the marines/other stuff kills you. You really need two high tech units to stop it - voids + templar/collo ideally. But of course you can't get that off 2 base. As you say, very early Thors and lategame Thors aren't really a problem. The former just because there isn't really enough oomph, and the latter because you can afford both the high tech units you need. It's the timing of it that kills you. What do you mean, you can easily take 2 tech paths off of 2 bases, MC has taken 3 before in some of his games. You don't need a ton of each, you just need 2-3 void rays to draw the air prioritizing shots which do no damage at all, and you immediately win. If they're a terrible player who can't even focus fire, then that might work. MC has made templar, colossi and void/phoenix from 2 base? Replay/vod please.
Wow do you know stupid that suggestion is. It takes 3 shots from thors to kill most protoss units, if you have 10 in your army how are you going to focus fire all of them. If you are suggesting to focus fire the air units, then thats the dumbest thing you can do. As well terran is extremely battle micro intensive its not just A move and cast gaurdian shield with zealots in front. You can't spend all your time focus firing your thors you have to micro your lower hp units such as marines so they don't get completely owned and ravens for PDD and ghosts for emp etc. Even if all you had was marines and thors you still need to pay signfiicant attention to the marines.
I think it was against Jinro in gsl 3, but I'm not sure and I'm not going to do the research for a random hack like you who has made a ton of totally wrong and incorrect protoss. I believe it might have been the game where he got bunker contained and then busted out with a ton of immortals.
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Is there any PTR, videos or better still Streams? Id really like to see how these changes look in a real game (EU Client here), especially the Archon buff.
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On May 05 2011 02:30 statikg wrote:
Wow do you know stupid that suggestion is. It takes 3 shots from thors to kill most protoss units, if you have 10 in your army how are you going to focus fire all of them.
Could you read the the discussion before responding? We're talking about a 2base timing attack. It doesn't come with 10 thors.
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On May 05 2011 02:30 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:20 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 02:19 statikg wrote:On May 05 2011 01:36 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 01:21 Mercury- wrote:On May 05 2011 00:21 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 00:14 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:28 Yaotzin wrote:On May 04 2011 23:19 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:17 clownzim wrote:
[quote]
atm p has no "counter" to thors... if terran get like 10-12 thors gg toss :D Carriers, magic boxed voids, chargelots work too if your economy is much better (which it should be because Thors can't really punish you from taking lots of expos) since you can instantly rebuild with WGates. All of which die to that pesky marine unit that Terrans sometimes build. Make a Colossus or Templar? We're meant to go carrier/void AND collossus or templar to stop thor/marine? How is that supposed to work? Do you have any idea how much that shit costs? Yeah in lategame it's not a problem because you can do that. With a timing push it is a problem. All that expensive stuff you need just can't be got in time. What kind of timing attack do you mean? 1 base Thor rushes only beat extremely greedy sentry expands, and against 8-10 Thor pushes you should have either Colos or Temps to take care of the marines and your choice of anti Thor unit. Well there's several variations on it. Basically it's a 2base Thor/marine push at heart, often with tanks or something else added. If you go collo you can kill the marines, but then the thors finish you off. Same with templar. If you go all out anti-thor units - say mass immortal so even 250mm can't kill them all - then the marines/other stuff kills you. You really need two high tech units to stop it - voids + templar/collo ideally. But of course you can't get that off 2 base. As you say, very early Thors and lategame Thors aren't really a problem. The former just because there isn't really enough oomph, and the latter because you can afford both the high tech units you need. It's the timing of it that kills you. What do you mean, you can easily take 2 tech paths off of 2 bases, MC has taken 3 before in some of his games. You don't need a ton of each, you just need 2-3 void rays to draw the air prioritizing shots which do no damage at all, and you immediately win. If they're a terrible player who can't even focus fire, then that might work. MC has made templar, colossi and void/phoenix from 2 base? Replay/vod please. Wow do you know stupid that suggestion is. It takes 3 shots from thors to kill most protoss units, if you have 10 in your army how are you going to focus fire all of them. If you are suggesting to focus fire the air units, then thats the dumbest thing you can do. As well terran is extremely battle micro intensive its not just A move and cast gaurdian shield with zealots in front. You can't spend all your time focus firing your thors you have to micro your lower hp units such as marines so they don't get completely owned and ravens for PDD and ghosts for emp etc. Even if all you had was marines and thors you still need to pay signfiicant attention to the marines. I think it was against Jinro in gsl 3, but I'm not sure and I'm not going to do the research for a random hack like you who has made a ton of totally wrong and incorrect protoss. I believe it might have been the game where he got bunker contained and then busted out with a ton of immortals.
I feel like I remember these games, long time ago.
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On May 05 2011 01:31 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:18 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2011 01:14 kickinhead wrote:
What is different in those two Examples other than Protoss having a much easier time to play defensively and get to the Deathball against Zerg than Terran does against Protoss, making it even more powerful?
Terran has Bunkers and PF and Tanks and Repair. For a Protoss attacking a Meching Terran directly is suicide. And Protoss has Force-Fields, Cannons, Wall-in's/Wall-Off's and Zerg's Units are mostly low-ranged or Melee, you really think that's easier? Besides; Meching requires a lot of Gas and it takes a longer time to build up than other Terran-Builds AND Toss has a much easier time scouting a Terran than Zerg does against Toss.
But besides you being wrong, the point you're making isn't even relevant. Tyler argued that there is no Problem that a certain race has an almost unbeatable Unit-composition but then differentiated in his Opinion when talking about PvT rather than PvZ, which leads me to believe that his opinion isn't only flaved, but also very biased towards Protoss.
funny how fast he agreed with thor being nerfed despite of any proof its actualy overpowered only because he was on the other side of the barricade(seriously where are all the dominant terrans using thors and crushing protoss in tourneys or even ladder) , disappointing how different apporoach to balancing he decides to take when its about PvZ.
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On May 05 2011 02:17 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:15 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 05 2011 02:07 s3rp wrote:On May 05 2011 02:04 Whitewing wrote:
Thors are still the highest single target dps unit in the game, and they still tear shit up, even without strike cannons. Just EMP the high templar late game and laugh, or for extreme baller points, EMP your own Thors so he can't feedback you. Hightest single target DPS doesn't mean squat in big battles of low HP Units. Right now in Sc2 you basically mass Low Tech Units and add some High Tech Units. Thors suck vs mass lowtech Units and don't have the range to be able to reach the Hightech Units in the back. Yes in some timing pushes when both armies are still pretty small Thors are great. Other then that ? I Don't think so. Erm, the only thing that thors arent great against are zealots. Every other "low hp" (or "lowtech") unit that protoss has thors are great against o.O They are pretty mediocre against masses of Stalker just like against masses of Roaches. Combine that with Zealots its not pretty.
Umm, lol? Is this post serious? 6 thors and 10 SCV's repairing (2300 minerals, 1200 gas, 46 supply) beats 25 stalkers (3125 minerals, 1250 gas, 50 supply) easily, even with stalkers focus firing the thors and nothing but 1a for the thor/scv army. Increasing those numbers to 11 thors and still 10 SCV you crush 40 stalkers easily. Stalkers are not cost efficient at killing thors unless they drastically outnumber them
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On May 05 2011 01:37 [NoiSe] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:32 space_yes wrote:
If thors > immortals was the issue they would have nerfed strike cannons. This is about HT imo.. This is a nerf to strike cannons. Thors in PvT were very very difficult to deal with, especially when strike cannons nullified any immortals on the field. You'd need to be producing 2 or 3 immortals for every thor to even come close to killing them all off, and the synergy of terran units made any thor all-in incredibly difficult to stop IMO. Giving the protoss another option to use versus thors is a good thing. It's not really an issue about the high templars, its more giving toss another way to combat thors.
Strike cannons still do the same dmg etc... Sure, indirectly it is a nerf b/c it allows toss to deny strike cannon usage but the real kick in the balls for terran players is losing a unit that can tank the burst dps of the toss deathball. A 100/150/2 unit with no upgrades can immediately do 50-200 dmg to a 300/200/6 unit that is fully upgraded. Fucking stupid really.
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I'd like to revoke my vote on the post in the right sidebar.
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On May 05 2011 02:35 ridonkulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:31 kickinhead wrote:On May 05 2011 01:18 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2011 01:14 kickinhead wrote:
What is different in those two Examples other than Protoss having a much easier time to play defensively and get to the Deathball against Zerg than Terran does against Protoss, making it even more powerful?
Terran has Bunkers and PF and Tanks and Repair. For a Protoss attacking a Meching Terran directly is suicide. And Protoss has Force-Fields, Cannons, Wall-in's/Wall-Off's and Zerg's Units are mostly low-ranged or Melee, you really think that's easier? Besides; Meching requires a lot of Gas and it takes a longer time to build up than other Terran-Builds AND Toss has a much easier time scouting a Terran than Zerg does against Toss.
But besides you being wrong, the point you're making isn't even relevant. Tyler argued that there is no Problem that a certain race has an almost unbeatable Unit-composition but then differentiated in his Opinion when talking about PvT rather than PvZ, which leads me to believe that his opinion isn't only flaved, but also very biased towards Protoss. funny how fast he agreed with thor being nerfed despite of any proof its actualy overpowered only because he was on the other side of the barricade(seriously where are all the dominant terrans using thors and crushing protoss in tourneys or even ladder) , disappointing how different apporoach to balancing he decides to take when its about PvZ.
He kept on his stance. He didn't say it was a needed change, or that it was imbalanced at all.
He just said it's easier for him to accept such a chance, because he spares time to figure out how
to deal with that build / strategy. And who wouldn't, it only helps him.
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wow, way to make thor 250mm cannon almost impossible to use. seriously, 150 energy to use, start with 50, require research time, and just sit around for 100 seconds before being to fire it off ONCE, and never again from the slowest unit in the game? will I be refunded the energy if the unit walks out while i take 5 seconds to do my cast animation? and with feedback, will ANY thors ever reach 150 energy? this makes the 250mm cannon almost ridiculous to pick up, WHY would you ever get it. to 3 shot a nexus that would've likely died to regular attacks anyways? completely superficial spell now that will never see gameplay. needs to be thought about further on PTR imo.
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interesting changes.. infestor speed decrease seems to make sense.. they WERE speedy little buggers after all.
interesting thor change too.. I think it will be weird seeing a small pylon radius.. makes sense though.. wonder if all the changes will stick around.
XD
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I still don't see why people see the infestor change as a nerf. IdrA and Machine made a pretty good point on SotG last night by saying that it is actually a good thing for zerg since they can now have better control of the infestor in the sense that it won't be as common for them to run in front of units and get killed. They can now be more managed where they can stay in the back easier and cast removing the rush of casting before they are killed. Not saying a .25 speed nerf will make them slow as shit but they compared the use to templars in the sense that you want them in the back casting so they can't be sniped easily. This will help zerg achieve that to an extant now. People just see "decreased" and think nerf.
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On May 05 2011 02:43 Kazeyonoma wrote:
wow, way to make thor 250mm cannon almost impossible to use. seriously, 150 energy to use, start with 50, require research time, and just sit around for 100 seconds before being to fire it off ONCE, and never again from the slowest unit in the game? will I be refunded the energy if the unit walks out while i take 5 seconds to do my cast animation? and with feedback, will ANY thors ever reach 150 energy? this makes the 250mm cannon almost ridiculous to pick up, WHY would you ever get it. to 3 shot a nexus that would've likely died to regular attacks anyways? completely superficial spell now that will never see gameplay. needs to be thought about further on PTR imo.
You should research it so you can use it on some destructible rocks before a battle, that way you'll lose less HP to feedback.
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On May 05 2011 02:44 Treva wrote:
I still don't see why people see the infestor change as a nerf. IdrA and Machine made a pretty good point on SotG last night by saying that it is actually a good thing for zerg since they can now have better control of the infestor in the sense that it won't be as common for them to run in front of units and get killed. They can now be more managed where they can stay in the back easier and cast removing the rush of casting before they are killed. Not saying a .25 speed nerf will make them slow as shit but they compared the use to templars in the sense that you want them in the back casting so they can't be sniped easily. This will help zerg achieve that to an extant now. People just see "decreased" and think nerf.
well you know there's always the build time "decreased"
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EPT
