EPTOn May 25 2011 05:12 Zerksys wrote:
Have you ever noticed that it was removed in the alpha? What are the reasons that the lurker was removed in the alpha. Surely blizzard could have tinkered around with the values a bit to make the lurker to try to fit. Maybe instead of 15+15 how about 20+10 or 25+5. The reason they removed it was because they couldn't make it fit in with the lore. It's not because it was being overshadowed by banelings and roaches. Zerg are missing a unit which does decent splash to armored units. This was where (i think) the lurker was supposed to fit in, but due to hydras being tier 2, blizzard couldn't figure out how to make this fit into the lore of the lurker coming from the hydra. They tried to up the range to 9 to try to mediate this, but in the end they just scrapped it because the lurker is a lair tech unit at heart and not a hive tech one as they had it in the alpha.
As for your specific examples
1. Medics not being a ground unit - what does this have to do with the lurker
2. Marauders - bonus damage to armored? Also it's not like you're ever going to go pure lurker. Lurker ling would completely destroy marauders. Add in a couple of banelings and you got yourself a siege on a terran.
3. Scans - I don't get what your problem is here. Your argument kind of makes an assumption that when you scan a lurker and move forward to attack it, the zerg player will just keep his lurkers burrowed there and not unburrow and move them. Newsflash: lurkers are not like creep tumors. They can move. That's the whole point of lurkers. You scan them, they unburrow and move back to further stall your push.
4. Banshees - banshee production means that you've dedicated a starport to producing banshees. Meaning less medivacs (going back to point 1). Plop down a spire. Get 3 mutas. Also I could even envision some spore crawlers making their way up to a siege line.
Here are some of my examples of why the lurker would be good.
1. Excellent damage output due to the fact that the lurker splash would be huge. Running a marine ball into 8 lurkers with 15 damage each for their splash is suicide.
2. Excellent army compositions - just imagine a lurker contain with lings and banelings. Throw in 2 infestors and you've got yourself an almost unbreakable contain.
3. Unit that forces selective use of force fields. In a mid game push thus far by protoss, there is not really any situation where using force fields can hurt you. That's why you see tosses at all levels just spam force fields without retribution. A unit like the lurker could make those force fields deadly if you find yourself in a lurker trap.
4. Siege potential - Zergs would be able to effectively contain terran and protoss players to make them push out slowly instead of the current A move to victory.
5. More opportunities for traps - burrowed banelings are good, but the problem is that if a scan goes off the banelings are dead. With lurkers there's a chance to get away.
6. (most important) A potential for aggressive play from the zerg. The zerg metagame won't just be defend harass and drone up any more. It can be, I'm going to make an effective timing push with lurkers before the terran has siege researched.
Cons: (what I feel)
1. Lurkers may overshadow banelings a bit - I still think banelings will see use in tvz and sometimes in zvp, but with lurkers the only thing that banelings will be used over lurkers for is going to be marines.
2. May overlap with the infestor - the infestor was recently buffed to do bonus damage to armored. The infestor's ability to do such damage would overlap with the lurker in the midgame and I feel like the infestor will see a lot less use because the lurker will do exactly what the infestor does, but with more range.
3. Could make zvz a complete shit fest of a matchup. Currently zvz is ling baneling into roach, hydra/infestor. I could see zvz turning into a complete rock paper scissors match up. Roaches are useless vs. lurkers which then forces the mutas which then forces infestors etc...
4. Could make for quite an OP zerg. The zerg metagame is all about getting the most drones possible early on. With the advent of a siege capable zerg army, it's a lot easier to know exactly when the push is going to hit your base because the protoss and terran player will have to slow push across the map. By the time they get to a place where they can actually do damage, the zerg player has already made more than enough units.
Edit: this post is addressing a lair level lurker, not a hive one.
Have you ever noticed that it was removed in the alpha? What are the reasons that the lurker was removed in the alpha. Surely blizzard could have tinkered around with the values a bit to make the lurker to try to fit. Maybe instead of 15+15 how about 20+10 or 25+5. The reason they removed it was because they couldn't make it fit in with the lore. It's not because it was being overshadowed by banelings and roaches. Zerg are missing a unit which does decent splash to armored units. This was where (i think) the lurker was supposed to fit in, but due to hydras being tier 2, blizzard couldn't figure out how to make this fit into the lore of the lurker coming from the hydra. They tried to up the range to 9 to try to mediate this, but in the end they just scrapped it because the lurker is a lair tech unit at heart and not a hive tech one as they had it in the alpha.
As for your specific examples
1. Medics not being a ground unit - what does this have to do with the lurker
2. Marauders - bonus damage to armored? Also it's not like you're ever going to go pure lurker. Lurker ling would completely destroy marauders. Add in a couple of banelings and you got yourself a siege on a terran.
3. Scans - I don't get what your problem is here. Your argument kind of makes an assumption that when you scan a lurker and move forward to attack it, the zerg player will just keep his lurkers burrowed there and not unburrow and move them. Newsflash: lurkers are not like creep tumors. They can move. That's the whole point of lurkers. You scan them, they unburrow and move back to further stall your push.
4. Banshees - banshee production means that you've dedicated a starport to producing banshees. Meaning less medivacs (going back to point 1). Plop down a spire. Get 3 mutas. Also I could even envision some spore crawlers making their way up to a siege line.
Here are some of my examples of why the lurker would be good.
1. Excellent damage output due to the fact that the lurker splash would be huge. Running a marine ball into 8 lurkers with 15 damage each for their splash is suicide.
2. Excellent army compositions - just imagine a lurker contain with lings and banelings. Throw in 2 infestors and you've got yourself an almost unbreakable contain.
3. Unit that forces selective use of force fields. In a mid game push thus far by protoss, there is not really any situation where using force fields can hurt you. That's why you see tosses at all levels just spam force fields without retribution. A unit like the lurker could make those force fields deadly if you find yourself in a lurker trap.
4. Siege potential - Zergs would be able to effectively contain terran and protoss players to make them push out slowly instead of the current A move to victory.
5. More opportunities for traps - burrowed banelings are good, but the problem is that if a scan goes off the banelings are dead. With lurkers there's a chance to get away.
6. (most important) A potential for aggressive play from the zerg. The zerg metagame won't just be defend harass and drone up any more. It can be, I'm going to make an effective timing push with lurkers before the terran has siege researched.
Cons: (what I feel)
1. Lurkers may overshadow banelings a bit - I still think banelings will see use in tvz and sometimes in zvp, but with lurkers the only thing that banelings will be used over lurkers for is going to be marines.
2. May overlap with the infestor - the infestor was recently buffed to do bonus damage to armored. The infestor's ability to do such damage would overlap with the lurker in the midgame and I feel like the infestor will see a lot less use because the lurker will do exactly what the infestor does, but with more range.
3. Could make zvz a complete shit fest of a matchup. Currently zvz is ling baneling into roach, hydra/infestor. I could see zvz turning into a complete rock paper scissors match up. Roaches are useless vs. lurkers which then forces the mutas which then forces infestors etc...
4. Could make for quite an OP zerg. The zerg metagame is all about getting the most drones possible early on. With the advent of a siege capable zerg army, it's a lot easier to know exactly when the push is going to hit your base because the protoss and terran player will have to slow push across the map. By the time they get to a place where they can actually do damage, the zerg player has already made more than enough units.
Edit: this post is addressing a lair level lurker, not a hive one.
ZvZ already is a r/p/s matchup imo. I actually think having a lurker in zvz would open up more use for the hydra, and make play less centered on massing infestors.
