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On May 25 2011 02:53 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 01:03 Dommk wrote:On May 25 2011 00:54 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:On May 24 2011 10:39 Silverion wrote:
I just want to see one thing: LURKERS. I never really understood this, I mean the only logic for: "we want the lurker back" is that they were good in Brood War. I honestly don't believe that lurkers would be good in SC2, I mean, now you have things like marauders for Terran which should be able to chew up lurkers--as for Protoss, now that we have things like colossus stalker balls and immortals the splash damage of the lurker would be extremely useless. I mean the only thing that kept Protoss from just massing goons versus lurkers was DS, I just can't see lurkers being useful without DS--the only thing new for Zerg they bring to the table is a better detection threat versus the other races. I understand why people miss the awesome power of the lurker, but I think they fail to realize that the context of SC2 is different from Brood War; just because it was good in Brood War doesn't mean it will be good in Starcraft II. Indeed, people are looking at some of the older units with Rose-tinted glasses and failing to realize how they would actually fit in Starcraft 2 as it is now. ridiculous. that same logic u are using can be applied to siege tanks and templars. ive played a alot of custom melee games were lurkers were edited for the zerg race and they worked fine. the main thing lurkers provide is stopping power AND the ability to actually make more offensive pushes. the main reason to why blizz didnt put lurkers in SC2, from my understanding and what i read, was because they didnt want them to "outshadow" the new unit called baneling. they also had trouble with where the lurker should be placed in the tier because hydras are tier 2 in SC2. however lurkers provided alot of uses for the match ups. in TvZ a zerg could actually contain a terran with proper lurker placement and it forced terrans to use more scans and in PvZ FFs werent as effective against zerg because lurkers atks could easily bypass FFs. so the tosses couldnt just up and roll a zerg with the col+zealot+stalker+sentry death ball since they had to be more cautious of lurkers. TL;DR lurkers provide alot of pushing power and defense power for zerg mid game. something they otherwise really dont have without lurkers. for zerg lurkers do what cols do for toss. for zerg lurkers do what siege tanks do for terran. get it now? there a long ranged siege unit with a linear splash radius. something zerg doesnt have with the exception of brood lords which take insanely long to tech to.
That is what the unit *does*, now how about where it fits?
The alpha version of the Lurker had 15dmg + 15dmg to armored, how does that work with Marines now having 55HP (as opposed to BW 40hp and 20dmg lurkers)? What about medics no longer being a ground unit? How about the new smart AI tanks with 13 range (as opposed to 12 in Broodwar)? Or Marauders? How would Banshees now play into all this?
The unit in theory does what certain long range units do, but in practice it is much worse. You have no dark swarm to cover your lurkers, Colossus match Lurker range. Terrans use scans to get rid of Tumors these days, they would hardly be reeling if they had to use it on Lurkers. Then you add in the fact that a Raven is significantly easier to get for a Terran than a Science Vessel and shares the same tech tree as Banshees and Medivacs which both do well against Lurkers.
You can't just assume it would work out the way you envision it. The reason it was removed because people weren't using the Lurker, it was being overshadowed by Banelings and Roaches.
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On May 25 2011 03:00 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 02:54 Scila wrote:On May 24 2011 10:28 Sapphire.lux wrote:
And a FACTORY unit that is good against armored air.
That is all i want for Christmas! OMG yes. It's really stupid that Mech in SC2 doesn't have a good response to air at all because Thor air damage sucks. They should've just kept it at 40 as it was in Beta. Why is it so difficult to build a Starport and get Vikings?
haha chill people it's not about balance (you could argue that late game T(mech)VP the carrier transitions are much stronger coz of chrono boost P will/ should always be ahead in upgrades. To little data to make a definite claim though. Mech is to rare for that) . I could go in to more detail why IMO, Terran could use a factory unit like this but i don't want to turn this thread in to balance shit-talk.
Functionality wise though, i'd say Terran lacks a fast flying unit. Don't care what this flying unit would be good at (fighting wise) but it would be of great benefit at scouting 
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On April 22 2011 11:48 littlejunior wrote:
Bring back Lurker's and Defiler's!
THIS.... so much this!!!
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So when are we getting new info?
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If lurkers were to come back they would definitly need to be atleast what they were in bw. Tier 3 and 15 + 15 to armored simply wouldn't work.
Also their base range would need a boost since all ground infantry got a boost.
I still would like to see them added, they would atleast be good in zvz against roaches I think and who knows once they're in and people start experimenting they might see good use.
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I hope blizz doesn't use units like lurkers or w/e from bw. I want them to come out with all new units and make their already amazing game even better.
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On May 25 2011 03:43 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 02:53 Ballistixz wrote:On May 25 2011 01:03 Dommk wrote:On May 25 2011 00:54 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:On May 24 2011 10:39 Silverion wrote:
I just want to see one thing: LURKERS. I never really understood this, I mean the only logic for: "we want the lurker back" is that they were good in Brood War. I honestly don't believe that lurkers would be good in SC2, I mean, now you have things like marauders for Terran which should be able to chew up lurkers--as for Protoss, now that we have things like colossus stalker balls and immortals the splash damage of the lurker would be extremely useless. I mean the only thing that kept Protoss from just massing goons versus lurkers was DS, I just can't see lurkers being useful without DS--the only thing new for Zerg they bring to the table is a better detection threat versus the other races. I understand why people miss the awesome power of the lurker, but I think they fail to realize that the context of SC2 is different from Brood War; just because it was good in Brood War doesn't mean it will be good in Starcraft II. Indeed, people are looking at some of the older units with Rose-tinted glasses and failing to realize how they would actually fit in Starcraft 2 as it is now. ridiculous. that same logic u are using can be applied to siege tanks and templars. ive played a alot of custom melee games were lurkers were edited for the zerg race and they worked fine. the main thing lurkers provide is stopping power AND the ability to actually make more offensive pushes. the main reason to why blizz didnt put lurkers in SC2, from my understanding and what i read, was because they didnt want them to "outshadow" the new unit called baneling. they also had trouble with where the lurker should be placed in the tier because hydras are tier 2 in SC2. however lurkers provided alot of uses for the match ups. in TvZ a zerg could actually contain a terran with proper lurker placement and it forced terrans to use more scans and in PvZ FFs werent as effective against zerg because lurkers atks could easily bypass FFs. so the tosses couldnt just up and roll a zerg with the col+zealot+stalker+sentry death ball since they had to be more cautious of lurkers. TL;DR lurkers provide alot of pushing power and defense power for zerg mid game. something they otherwise really dont have without lurkers. for zerg lurkers do what cols do for toss. for zerg lurkers do what siege tanks do for terran. get it now? there a long ranged siege unit with a linear splash radius. something zerg doesnt have with the exception of brood lords which take insanely long to tech to. That is what the unit *does*, now how about where it fits? The alpha version of the Lurker had 15dmg + 15dmg to armored, how does that work with Marines now having 55HP (as opposed to BW 40hp and 20dmg lurkers)? What about medics no longer being a ground unit? How about the new smart AI tanks with 13 range (as opposed to 12 in Broodwar)? Or Marauders? How would Banshees now play into all this? The unit in theory does what certain long range units do, but in practice it is much worse. You have no dark swarm to cover your lurkers, Colossus match Lurker range. Terrans use scans to get rid of Tumors these days, they would hardly be reeling if they had to use it on Lurkers. Then you add in the fact that a Raven is significantly easier to get for a Terran than a Science Vessel and shares the same tech tree as Banshees and Medivacs which both do well against Lurkers. You can't just assume it would work out the way you envision it. The reason it was removed because people weren't using the Lurker, it was being overshadowed by Banelings and Roaches.
Well, they didn't really give it a chance. Think how bad the game testers were back over a year ago. Players didn't really use ravens (and still don't), but that doesn't mean that over time, someone can't come up with a build that uses the ravens (and similarly the lurker) in a pivotal role. Maybe the lurker doesn't work well within a SC2 context, but saying that "no one was using lurkers, so they removed it" is a dumb reason. Look at queens in BW. They go unused for 11 years, and now they are redefining ZvTmech.
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guys, pls stop to talk about balance, there is a thread for it. pls!
if you want to talk about, ask questions or submit wishes about the upcoming event/campaign/story of hots, feel free to do, but pls no MULTIPLAYER discussion here. the hands-on is only about the campaign, pls stop it!
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That is what the unit *does*, now how about where it fits?
The alpha version of the Lurker had 15dmg + 15dmg to armored, how does that work with Marines now having 55HP (as opposed to BW 40hp and 20dmg lurkers)? What about medics no longer being a ground unit? How about the new smart AI tanks with 13 range (as opposed to 12 in Broodwar)? Or Marauders? How would Banshees now play into all this?
The unit in theory does what certain long range units do, but in practice it is much worse. You have no dark swarm to cover your lurkers, Colossus match Lurker range. Terrans use scans to get rid of Tumors these days, they would hardly be reeling if they had to use it on Lurkers. Then you add in the fact that a Raven is significantly easier to get for a Terran than a Science Vessel and shares the same tech tree as Banshees and Medivacs which both do well against Lurkers.
You can't just assume it would work out the way you envision it. The reason it was removed because people weren't using the Lurker, it was being overshadowed by Banelings and Roaches. Most importantly the lurker would bring the best thing it brought from BW, and something sorely lacking for zerg in SC2: Terrain control.
Go look at what two lurkers can do on the bridges of Destination, or from the top of most ramps.
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On May 25 2011 03:47 Wrath 2.1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 11:48 littlejunior wrote:
Bring back Lurker's and Defiler's! THIS.... so much this!!!
Then remove Infestors and banelings though? >.< If not, don't you think it would be too much?
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On May 25 2011 03:43 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 02:53 Ballistixz wrote:On May 25 2011 01:03 Dommk wrote:On May 25 2011 00:54 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:On May 24 2011 10:39 Silverion wrote:
I just want to see one thing: LURKERS. I never really understood this, I mean the only logic for: "we want the lurker back" is that they were good in Brood War. I honestly don't believe that lurkers would be good in SC2, I mean, now you have things like marauders for Terran which should be able to chew up lurkers--as for Protoss, now that we have things like colossus stalker balls and immortals the splash damage of the lurker would be extremely useless. I mean the only thing that kept Protoss from just massing goons versus lurkers was DS, I just can't see lurkers being useful without DS--the only thing new for Zerg they bring to the table is a better detection threat versus the other races. I understand why people miss the awesome power of the lurker, but I think they fail to realize that the context of SC2 is different from Brood War; just because it was good in Brood War doesn't mean it will be good in Starcraft II. Indeed, people are looking at some of the older units with Rose-tinted glasses and failing to realize how they would actually fit in Starcraft 2 as it is now. ridiculous. that same logic u are using can be applied to siege tanks and templars. ive played a alot of custom melee games were lurkers were edited for the zerg race and they worked fine. the main thing lurkers provide is stopping power AND the ability to actually make more offensive pushes. the main reason to why blizz didnt put lurkers in SC2, from my understanding and what i read, was because they didnt want them to "outshadow" the new unit called baneling. they also had trouble with where the lurker should be placed in the tier because hydras are tier 2 in SC2. however lurkers provided alot of uses for the match ups. in TvZ a zerg could actually contain a terran with proper lurker placement and it forced terrans to use more scans and in PvZ FFs werent as effective against zerg because lurkers atks could easily bypass FFs. so the tosses couldnt just up and roll a zerg with the col+zealot+stalker+sentry death ball since they had to be more cautious of lurkers. TL;DR lurkers provide alot of pushing power and defense power for zerg mid game. something they otherwise really dont have without lurkers. for zerg lurkers do what cols do for toss. for zerg lurkers do what siege tanks do for terran. get it now? there a long ranged siege unit with a linear splash radius. something zerg doesnt have with the exception of brood lords which take insanely long to tech to. That is what the unit *does*, now how about where it fits? The alpha version of the Lurker had 15dmg + 15dmg to armored, how does that work with Marines now having 55HP (as opposed to BW 40hp and 20dmg lurkers)? What about medics no longer being a ground unit? How about the new smart AI tanks with 13 range (as opposed to 12 in Broodwar)? Or Marauders? How would Banshees now play into all this? The unit in theory does what certain long range units do, but in practice it is much worse. You have no dark swarm to cover your lurkers, Colossus match Lurker range. Terrans use scans to get rid of Tumors these days, they would hardly be reeling if they had to use it on Lurkers. Then you add in the fact that a Raven is significantly easier to get for a Terran than a Science Vessel and shares the same tech tree as Banshees and Medivacs which both do well against Lurkers. You can't just assume it would work out the way you envision it. The reason it was removed because people weren't using the Lurker, it was being overshadowed by Banelings and Roaches.
thats a ALPHA lurker ur talking about. something like dmg can be tweaked to work if thought out enough. also no zergs do not have dark swarm to protech lurkers anymore, but what they do have is fungal growth to soften up units which makes the lurkers and there splash dmg that much more effective. also u fail to mention that browder him self said that the lurker was actually "to powerful" in some circumstances and "to weak" in others. that was another reason why they didnt put lurkers in because they were simply frustrated more then anything.
also it was being over shadowed by roaches in BETA. in BETA roaches had 2 armor and costed 1 supply, so roaches outshadowed everything in beta. that is no longer the case. banelings also did significantly more dmg then they do now in beta.
what ppl need to understand about banelings is that its a SUICIDE unit. ones u use it its gone and has to be remade. sure u may kill a entire group of marines, but ur banelings are also dead. cols and tanks have that same effect. they can take out a entire group of units in a matter of seconds but the key difference is that A) there range is 9 or higher, and B) they remain on the field.
also a raven hardly matters. them being cloaked is just a added benefit. lurkers are not glass cannons like DTs. they have about the same HP as a tank of not more with +1 armor. lurkers are not used because they can be burrowed, they are used for either defense or offensive purposes.
for example drops. puting 2 or 3 lurkers at ur mineral lines and now drops are almost negated. a terran would have to either bring a raven with the drop or use scan to get rid of the lurkers, and even if they do the lurkers already did there job and that was to delay the harass long enough for back up units to arrive
and ya cols may match lurker range but why does that matter at all? spread out ur lurkers good enough and cols would be completely ineffective because of the way cols atk. cols atk in a left to right sweeping motion strait in front of them. so at best if u spread the lurkers out just right (as u did in BW) the cols might only be able to atk 1 or 2 of them. there splash (which is the main thing that makes cols strong) will be negated because lurkers DO NOT suffer from that 1 mass ball syndrome. u can place lurkers strategically and spread them out to where splash wont effect them.
ppl seen the same thing in BW when lurkers were up against tanks/reavers. like ive said ive experimented with lurkers as if they were implemented in the current game and ive had nothing but success with them. they actually work great with infestor+bling play.
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On May 25 2011 04:12 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +That is what the unit *does*, now how about where it fits?
The alpha version of the Lurker had 15dmg + 15dmg to armored, how does that work with Marines now having 55HP (as opposed to BW 40hp and 20dmg lurkers)? What about medics no longer being a ground unit? How about the new smart AI tanks with 13 range (as opposed to 12 in Broodwar)? Or Marauders? How would Banshees now play into all this?
The unit in theory does what certain long range units do, but in practice it is much worse. You have no dark swarm to cover your lurkers, Colossus match Lurker range. Terrans use scans to get rid of Tumors these days, they would hardly be reeling if they had to use it on Lurkers. Then you add in the fact that a Raven is significantly easier to get for a Terran than a Science Vessel and shares the same tech tree as Banshees and Medivacs which both do well against Lurkers.
You can't just assume it would work out the way you envision it. The reason it was removed because people weren't using the Lurker, it was being overshadowed by Banelings and Roaches. Most importantly the lurker would bring the best thing it brought from BW, and something sorely lacking for zerg in SC2: Terrain control. Go look at what two lurkers can do on the bridges of Destination, or from the top of most ramps.
So true... The closest thing zergs have to "terrain control" is fungal growth, which is a soild 4 game seconds of "control." Big woop. There is no unit for zerg (besides fungal) that can force an army to have to take another path (like siege tanks, ravens, forcefields, and (kind of) collosi do).
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For the lurker to come back, the baneling would have to go away. Blizzard already posted a while ago saying this and that it is out of question, so might as well just wait for the new units and stop hoping for lurker comeback which unfortunately is not going to happen.
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On May 25 2011 04:13 arew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 03:47 Wrath 2.1 wrote:On April 22 2011 11:48 littlejunior wrote:
Bring back Lurker's and Defiler's! THIS.... so much this!!! Then remove Infestors and banelings though? >.< If not, don't you think it would be too much?
I would happily remove infestors and blings for lurkers and defilers. Not only would it make zerg stronger, but lurkers and defilers were WAY more fun to control.
But yes, with lurkers, defilers, blings, and infestors, zerg would be massively OP. But just give the other two races a couple other badass units and we are all set. No sense in not adding awesomeness to the game 
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I'd much rather see new units and a new dynamic, rather than going back to the 90s to solve all our problems. Think outside the square people.
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On May 25 2011 04:20 k!llua wrote:
I'd much rather see new units and a new dynamic, rather than going back to the 90s to solve all our problems. Think outside the square people.
Spoken like someone who missed out on the awesomeness that was the defiler... I've played 6 RTS's for about 12 years now, and no unit even comes close to the defiler in terms of fun, adding depth to the game, spectator excitement, and overall badass-ness
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On May 25 2011 00:54 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:I never really understood this, I mean the only logic for: "we want the lurker back" is that they were good in Brood War. I honestly don't believe that lurkers would be good in SC2, I mean, now you have things like marauders for Terran which should be able to chew up lurkers--as for Protoss, now that we have things like colossus stalker balls and immortals the splash damage of the lurker would be extremely useless. I mean the only thing that kept Protoss from just massing goons versus lurkers was DS, I just can't see lurkers being useful without DS--the only thing new for Zerg they bring to the table is a better detection threat versus the other races. I understand why people miss the awesome power of the lurker, but I think they fail to realize that the context of SC2 is different from Brood War; just because it was good in Brood War doesn't mean it will be good in Starcraft II.
Wall of text incoming, I apologize for my english, I'm from Spain and I have to improve it a bit =P
First of all, I have to clarify that in Brood War I wasn't a great player, actually I'm too young to have some competitive experience on it (I'm about twenty, as many pros in Starcraft 2 today), but I played it Zerg in BW enough to fall in love with 'em by its game mechanics, and to realize a few things today:
First of all, Starcraft 2 will have improved many things. Has removed the high micro skill requirement that wasn't reasonable at all, it has improved in the map design, the art direction is better ... but I think there is a serious problem today with Zerg and its mechanics.
It is assumed that Zerg is a very dangerous alien race that spreads very easily by their ability to assimilate forms of life to improve their own genetic material, so we assume that Zerg is an aggressive and hazard enemy if allowed to expand too much. They share a hive mind and its units are purely biological, so a plenty of that huge mass of creatures will suicide looking for penetrate in our bases or cause pure damage.
While this concept is implemented in Starcraft 2 quite well with the Banelings, one of the new units, management of the far more dynamic creep, the concept of the queen as a permanent figure on the Zerg bases (reminiscent of the Queen concept of, for instance, Aliens) and the Zerg ability to expand (I prefer calling it 'adaptability of Zerg players to find a satisfactory way to play the metagame as such does not provide it directly'), on the other hand we had that the Zerg expansion on the map doesn't scare the enemy players of other races because a Zerg base is a weak bastion of meat and creep that can be broken down easily. The expansion of the creep all over the map becomes useless once the game reaches a certain point and all the supposed advantage that gives you expand and control the map vanishes because destroying a Creep Tumor is amazingly easy just owning a mobile detector unit, which are not exactly expensive and difficult to move (especially for Protoss), and if we add the use of a Colossus you may clean the map previously to a lategame confrontation that will decide the game by far.
And then there's the fact that Zerg players aren't the only who have found new, better or just different ways to approach the games. Protoss and Terran have begun to make greedy builds consisting on fast expansions with equal or even surpassing the economy of the Zerg, the latter being required to coordinate many more bases, which added to the natural weakness of the Zerg units (even the concept of 'em is about mass weak units) leaves us with the situation that Z does not win because you have played well the way a Zerg should do, a Zerg wins because obviously while you have a macro exponentially greater you control so many more resources and then you get a huge advantage. Furthermore, as I said before, Zerg do not have it as easy as Protoss or Terran to intimidate those who dare to try to harass an expansion. Siege Tanks have no fear because of its range, photon cannons can deal with air and land and also detect invisible units. We have no possibility of waping in units exactly when we need to on the exact place we need on your expansion (as was done with the Khaydarin and can be done with DT). We have static defenses, yes, but after the 20 minute mark I doubt seriously if 5, 10 or 15 spinecrawlers will be a challenge to a line of siege tanks who can shoot from the moon or a couple of Colossi than can do as well.
My point is that's the point where we need Lurkers. While the place in the metagame for an Anti-Tier 1 unit is already covered by the Baneling, the Lurker has the ability to, (1), still being useful once the Colossi/Stimpack have been researched or there's a critical mass of Siege tanks/Sentrys on the field. Also has the perfect capability of intimidating a Terran or Protoss who dares to walk around the map easily wrecking down expansions by A + Click. And, of course, while a Zerg bioball can be dangerous in certain situations, any Zerg player at any level is terrified of a bunch of Terran Mech or a Protoss Deathball by the simple fact that even flanking or microing there is the chance of causing insignificant enough damage to fight toe to toe in a second wave. A Lurker is the perfect unit for making any enemy think twice before leaving the base without detectors, or A+Move everywhere he wants to, even the Lurker has the perfect ability to punish the other races reducing significantly the margin of error they have. And for least, we can even use them as siege unit seeing that the Ultralisks nowadays are the worst cost/efficient unit at the game.
Finally, although it is impossible for Lurkers become an advanced unit being morphed from the Hydras because of the change in the Tier 1, the nature of the Roaches makes them perfect to be the unit that evolves in the new Lurkers. In addition, Zerg is the only race that has no anti-armor unit yet, a role that can suit the new Lurker pretty well.
Will HOTS Lurkers be the nightmare of the Terran Mech and the possibility of facing a Protoss Deathball with guarantee? Is it perhapsthe Tier 3 anti-air unit we need? Because yes, Zerg has Mutalisks, you can make drops to harass, has the fastest unit in the game (Speedlings)...but P and T have the same capabilities (they can also drop, make aerial harassment which cost about equal or less than Mutas, etc) and is only a matter of time that Protoss and Terran players evolve in their mechanics enough to making Zerg unable to take a victory without needing a miracle.
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On May 25 2011 04:20 k!llua wrote:
I'd much rather see new units and a new dynamic, rather than going back to the 90s to solve all our problems. Think outside the square people.
this is what they're going to do anyway you can hope for lurkers but blizzard isn't gonna add units they removed in the first place, try to enjoy what units they put into the game instead of of thinking about past units they will probably not add anymore.
With that said imo blizzard should just replace the colussus with something more fun or give the colossus something that makes it more fun most people hate the unit anyway ^^.
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On May 25 2011 04:19 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 04:13 arew wrote:On May 25 2011 03:47 Wrath 2.1 wrote:On April 22 2011 11:48 littlejunior wrote:
Bring back Lurker's and Defiler's! THIS.... so much this!!! Then remove Infestors and banelings though? >.< If not, don't you think it would be too much? I would happily remove infestors and blings for lurkers and defilers. Not only would it make zerg stronger, but lurkers and defilers were WAY more fun to control. But yes, with lurkers, defilers, blings, and infestors, zerg would be massively OP. But just give the other two races a couple other badass units and we are all set. No sense in not adding awesomeness to the game
True Lurkers and defilers would make the game more skilled than lucky-wised though. In case, a Reaver instead of Colossi and medics instead of medivacs would be even better, IMO.
Still, lets wait and see! 
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On May 25 2011 04:28 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 04:20 k!llua wrote:
I'd much rather see new units and a new dynamic, rather than going back to the 90s to solve all our problems. Think outside the square people. this is what they're going to do anyway you can hope for lurkers but blizzard isn't gonna add units they removed in the first place, try to enjoy what units they put into the game instead of of thinking about past units they will probably not add anymore. With that said imo blizzard should just replace the colussus with something more fun or give the colossus something that makes it more fun most people hate the unit anyway ^^.
To be fair, lurkers were going to be in sc2 and removed quite late, possibly with the intention of re-introducing them in the zerg-themed expansion. Don't rule anything out here
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EPT
