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Map/Micro Bot Hack? - Page 12

Forum Index > SC2 General
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AeonStrife
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States918 Posts
April 07 2011 15:03 GMT
#221
It upsets me to see stuff like this. During Brood war, there were pros caught hacking in a tournament. Its bound to happen again in SC2. I am pretty sure hackers are always one step ahead. Blizzard has to be 5 steps ahead of them then. But it seems banning in waves don't do much. We should make a thread about hacking in general, so we can get their attention.
Whats worse...US Poltics or SC2 Balance Talks...
ferry
Profile Joined December 2010
27 Posts
April 07 2011 15:07 GMT
#222
On April 07 2011 23:04 redviper wrote:
Looks like a network injection program. i wrote something similar for Lineage 2 a long time ago and it is a lot easier to design and a lot more versatile than input based bots. The only real difficulty is getting the protocol and decrypting the packets, something that can be done easily enough. And in SC2 it will be even easier because the server actually sends global information to the client, so you don't even have to guess anything.

Its a lot harder to detect also by warden because the bot doesn't have to live on the same machine, it can be on a different network altogether.


Yes, a lot of popular hacks also for Diablo 2 were based on network injection, so it wouldn't surprise me if this was the same. I guess what makes these hacks difficult is that first the SC2 client has to be reverse engineered (to a certain extent) in order to understand the packets sent between server/client. I'm pretty sure if Blizzard used an encryption algorithm to protect the packets sent between client and server, that would make network injections much harder to write; at least that's what the solution is in general for client-server applications.
genrlPatTen
Profile Joined January 2011
United States35 Posts
April 07 2011 15:28 GMT
#223
On April 08 2011 00:07 ferry wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2011 23:04 redviper wrote:
Looks like a network injection program. i wrote something similar for Lineage 2 a long time ago and it is a lot easier to design and a lot more versatile than input based bots. The only real difficulty is getting the protocol and decrypting the packets, something that can be done easily enough. And in SC2 it will be even easier because the server actually sends global information to the client, so you don't even have to guess anything.

Its a lot harder to detect also by warden because the bot doesn't have to live on the same machine, it can be on a different network altogether.


Yes, a lot of popular hacks also for Diablo 2 were based on network injection, so it wouldn't surprise me if this was the same. I guess what makes these hacks difficult is that first the SC2 client has to be reverse engineered (to a certain extent) in order to understand the packets sent between server/client. I'm pretty sure if Blizzard used an encryption algorithm to protect the packets sent between client and server, that would make network injections much harder to write; at least that's what the solution is in general for client-server applications.



Yeah its pretty interesting what you can find out with a archive manager and a decompiler. Reverse engineering software has been around for ever, but when you get to the nuts and bolts, all software is just files executed on your computer, this machine code can be easily converted back to source(albeit semi-readable) and encryptions can be broken given enough time/power. The tools are out there to do it... It just makes me sad that people do. Whats the fun in having the computer play for you? So you can flex your e-peen to all your friends?
"Genius might be the ability to say a profound thing in a simple way."
MegaBUD
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada179 Posts
April 07 2011 15:47 GMT
#224
Woah... auto inject larva... maybe next expension...
TurpinOS
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada1223 Posts
April 07 2011 15:57 GMT
#225
This thread is pure gold.

The amount of people that are dead-on thinking that this was not hacking really made my day !

OT : didnt know hacks had gone so far, but i got to say it was pretty interesting to watch lol
http://eve.znaor.hr/pimpmydomi/
Elldar
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden287 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 16:35:58
April 07 2011 16:01 GMT
#226
He clearly has an bot program for the roach micro look att 17:57~15:58 he burrow a single roach while having all his roaches in one hotkey, simply not possible.

Btw, on another note why build more than 5 banelings when going for a banelings bust? Get ling speed and start massings lings instead of those extra banes they were not helping, not only is you opponent going to be prepared next time you attack. You are setting yourself in an all-in:ish situation. If you go for bane bust in zvz, the banes are there to kill his economy(drones) while you flood with lings to prevent him for building up drones again. This is not an early game pressure type of build, so following it up with an expansion is weird.
And this is the main cause for your loss, is the fact that the game is 21 minutes long, and you let him catch up to you the time he moves out he had more workers and even amount of roaches. Of course he hade perfect injects however that is something other player could have without hacking aswell. That purely rely on your opponents to remember the injection rather than actual apm. That he hacks is just an iceing on the cake, if you done the build correctly you would had won right then and there. Besides just listen to his response to your banelings bust,3evo and 3 spines, sound like a real low-class player, and he could not withstand a ling follow up.
Moonling
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States987 Posts
April 07 2011 16:16 GMT
#227
Its funny how easy this is to acquire, and use. The program code is interesting though
1% of koreans control 99% of starcraft winnings. #occupykorea.
lowlypawn
Profile Joined January 2009
United States241 Posts
April 07 2011 16:26 GMT
#228
Can't download replay

Could someone please upload it again?
lulzury
Profile Joined February 2010
United States236 Posts
April 07 2011 16:33 GMT
#229
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210057

Did anyone check this thing out? Maybe the guy was using some bot like the one used here.
SEn hwaiting!!!
Sv1
Profile Joined June 2010
United States204 Posts
April 07 2011 16:34 GMT
#230
This guy actually has an SC2 replayed account and has upped a couple of reps. The ones he loaded (early march) are indicative of your average diamond zerg, his camera is panning all over his base like a normal person would. Not just the hovering over his main hatch during the replay the OP posted.

What's funny is that HE has one he uploaded call "hacker" so I imagine this is just another frustrated zerg who decided to go the dark route of hacking.

At first I thought maybe "oh, it's zvz, maybe this is something they do since it usually starts banelings. Later on, regardless of the roach micro and the 700+ apm, he sneaks a few looks through the fog at your army before he leaves, your rocks by your 3rd to see if they are broken down or you expanded, and the outer rocks of his 3rd without looking actually scouting.

Replays like this always make me wonder how many hackers I have played/lost/beat
blackone
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany1314 Posts
April 07 2011 16:37 GMT
#231
On April 08 2011 01:33 lulzury wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210057

Did anyone check this thing out? Maybe the guy was using some bot like the one used here.

Well did you check this out? That topic is about something created with the SC2 editor. It is an AI in a custom map, it is not a third party program and has nothing to do with hacking.
lulzury
Profile Joined February 2010
United States236 Posts
April 07 2011 17:48 GMT
#232
On April 08 2011 01:37 blackone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 01:33 lulzury wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210057

Did anyone check this thing out? Maybe the guy was using some bot like the one used here.

Well did you check this out? That topic is about something created with the SC2 editor. It is an AI in a custom map, it is not a third party program and has nothing to do with hacking.

Ahh, sorry. I did check out both videos and read the beginning xO and since he said that they were micro bots, I started thinking something along the lines of a runescape bot. Sorry. Yeah, so no way that could be related to this replay.
SEn hwaiting!!!
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
April 07 2011 19:00 GMT
#233
On April 07 2011 17:06 Digamma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2011 16:29 MayorITC wrote:
On April 07 2011 15:30 Digamma wrote:
On April 07 2011 14:14 Ryuu314 wrote:
On April 07 2011 13:51 Digamma wrote:
On April 07 2011 13:25 Navillus wrote:
On April 07 2011 13:09 Jonas wrote:
that micro was PRETTY cool, and definitely a bot. That accounts days are numbered

I think that there should be competitions where coders are challenged to make bot programs that play SC2 against other people's bot programs. It'd be a really interesting challenge, definitely. Could you program an AI to know a build order so well that it is never supply blocked, but never has more than 8 excess supply? Yes, you can program a bot to automatically burrow a roach when it has less than 20 health, but can you program it to "think"?


That would actually be very cool, as long as you mean a program that doesn't "cheat" (get any knowledge or ingame advantages that humans don't) I imagine making a good high-level AI is very hard, I mean Blizzard couldn't (ok was too lazy/pressed for time to) make an insane AI without it cheating by getting extra minerals and gas. With this we could get a legitimate insane AI and start a sort of Deep Blue Vs. Kasparov thing going, see if anyone can make an AI that can play with the pros.

Personally I think that it would be almost impossible to get a pro level AI, they would obviously have massive micro advantages (doing things like the hacker in OP but for every battle with every unit) but I don't think computers are ready to create or adapt strategies on the fly at a high enough level to beat pros, just look at chess which as almost infinitely fewer possible choices in a game than Starcraft and it still took a very long time for computers to reach human level of play.


Maybe because theres no one actually dedicated and paid to do such a thing? People have jobs. They cant work on it full time even if they wanted. Which so far i dont think anyone cares about making a AI to play starcraft when they wanna play themselves.

Clearly you guys have never ventured in the the BW forums. There is an annual SC:BW AI competition where teams (from universities all over USA) create bots to play SC:BW at a pretty high level. The winner of last year's competition was a Zerg AI created by the UC Berkeley team called the Overmind. It was so complex that it had the ability to learn to dodge storms. The Overmind had pretty basic learning capabilities. I'd recommend you to search it up and watch some of the videos. They're pretty darn impressive.

EDIT: I'll link some videos of some old BW AI's for those who are interested. If you want to check out the 2010 BW AI tourney here's the link: http://eis.ucsc.edu/StarCraftAICompetition
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcjQhig88wE
bot wraith micro against hydras



Please read properly before you respond. He is talking about a fully functional bot not programmed for ONE situation like your talking about but one that knows every single situation and can account for it to the level of a world class player. And able to beat players at the top of the world rankings.


I suggest you take your own advice. He IS talking about a fully functional bot.


The video was of unit micro in a static enviroment. The other guy gave the example of deep blue. Have these "amazing" bots beat any of the best players in the world in bw?

I suggest you click on the eis.ucsc.edu link I gave you. That contains videos of fully functional bots playing against one another. At that webpage, there is also another link to the winning bot (the Overmind) playing (and beating) a human player (Oriol) who had been to the 2009 WCG.

I didn't want to link too many videos but since some people just can't read I will
+ Show Spoiler +
DL Overmind v. Oriol BW replays:
http://eis.ucsc.edu/sites/default/files/OriolExhibition.zip

2 bots playing one another:

HEROwithNOlegacy
Profile Joined June 2010
United States850 Posts
April 07 2011 20:10 GMT
#234
I was watching this and drinking a soda and I almost dropped my soda on the floor when I saw him kill you with roaches against your roach, spine crawler, infestor composition with that burrow micro. He's APM during that was 700 and that burrow micro seemed un-human, I am thinking that he is indeed hacking but wow, good find. Very fishy.
SlayerS Fighting!
redviper
Profile Joined May 2010
Pakistan2333 Posts
April 07 2011 20:12 GMT
#235
Whats the fun in having the computer play for you? So you can flex your e-peen to all your friends?


Actually for L2 atleast, I found it atleast as much fun to write the bot than play the game myself. Figuring out the best ways for the AI to deal with situations is really interesting, and keeping up with the changes in protocol every 6 months was also quite fun.

And plus there is the money incentive. Imagine if you made the perfect bot, undetectable, flawless. You could sell thousands of copies and easily make a living wage for a couple of years.
TurpinOS
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada1223 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 20:16:06
April 07 2011 20:14 GMT
#236
How are people just ''thinking'' he is hacking, I would gladly like an explanation on how you burrow roaches without selecting them and how you inject with queens also without selecting them.

this cant be serious

theres nothing ''fishy'' to this, I mean seriously, what do people need more...are you only going to agree that hes hacking if he starts making battlecuirsers when hes playing protoss ? or is that also just fishy...
http://eve.znaor.hr/pimpmydomi/
AGIANTSMURF
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1232 Posts
April 07 2011 20:16 GMT
#237
Woah crazy stuff right there......

Maybe he is just a super mega uber pro smurfing? whats account/statistics look like?
Thats "Grand-Master" SMURF to you.....
Phayze
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2029 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 20:48:58
April 07 2011 20:17 GMT
#238
Wow watched the replay, this is quite similar to automine and other hacks that were prevalent in Broodwar. Except the programmer took it a dozen steps further and made auto inject auto burrow. Not going to lie it's quite an interesting bit of programming. If this is an isolated incident, banning the creator wont actually accomplish anything because if he's a programmer he will not have a problem buying multiple accounts for himself, If it's released online privately it again wont matter (low userbase) as he will use it to support a potential private cheat business. Both of these I feel will not have a large impact on players. However if this hack is already public, I feel it's going to hit SC2 hard like some of the other maphacks. I find the publicity some of these map hackers have gotten as of late are promoting this evolution of SC2 hacks. Really a shame. Really could use a replay flag system like bwchart had, but server sided on blizzards servers. I think blizzard could handle the bandwidth and computing requirements.
Proud member of the LGA-1366 Core-i7 4Ghz Club
Chahta
Profile Joined February 2011
United States148 Posts
April 07 2011 20:50 GMT
#239
On April 08 2011 05:17 Phayze wrote:
Wow watched the replay, this is quite similar to automine and other hacks that were prevalent in Broodwar. Except the programmer took it a dozen steps further and made auto inject. Not going to lie it's quite an interesting bit of programming. If this is an isolated incident, banning the creator wont actually accomplish anything because if he's a programmer he will not have a problem buying multiple accounts for himself, If it's released online privately it again wont matter (low userbase) as he will use it to support a potential private cheat business. Both of these I feel will not have a large impact on players. However if this hack is already public, I feel it's going to hit SC2 hard like some of the other maphacks. I find the publicity some of these map hackers have gotten as of late are promoting this evolution of SC2 hacks. Really a shame. Really could use a replay flag system like bwchart had, but server sided on blizzards servers. I think blizzard could handle the bandwidth and computing requirements.

Except every bronze league player who loses a game ever will instantly flag it causing a flood. Perhaps require an actual explanation of why you think the person is hacking...Don't get me wrong I want hackers out of the game, or at least confined to playing other hackers...but a simple flag system would probably just result in problems :/
I accidentally whole f*cking base
Gladiator6
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden7024 Posts
April 07 2011 20:56 GMT
#240
Deffinetly hack no doubts, I must say he wasn't really good with hiding that. That burrow micro part, queen larvae inject and also building 3 evos to block his mineral lines before he even knew or saw you were going banelings pretty much speaks for itself.

I don't know about other people but in my opinion is very easy to spot, this one was crystal clear.
Flying, sOs, free, Light, Soulkey & ZerO
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