So its 6 P.M right now and im posting this because im am unsure of and want everyone to be aware of this i played someone on ladder today in zerg vs zerg matchup and it just doesnt add up ive watched the replay and have had many other higher tier players watch this replay and they have the same feelings i do, the game opened my opponent FE on cross position on shattered temple so i figure i would try to baneling his min lines to put him behind becasue i was unable to expo at that time, but the weird thing of it is he was always one step ahead i had baneling morphing he was getting roaches banelings coming he had his min lines blocked off with 3 evo chambers before he scouted or had even seen what i had in mind it wasnt so much that he did these things its just the timings he did. if you choose to watch the replay keep in mind of whats going on at what time banelings morphing, players cam and vision etc.... so once that bainling pressure had failed we had one engagement at my base this is the tickle, he operated at 40 apm the entire game engagement happens with me being higher tech and higher upgrades better concave with spines he all of a sudden has steady 698 apm with micro like no other while building units in a steady compsure and crushes me. if anyone has any idea of how to this happened or is aware of how to do this please respond it just didnt seem natural = / please educate me on this.
first off this is the wrong forum for hacking posts (there is a thread for it search "tl hacker database" i'm too lazy to link you to it) 2nd, why were you playing 1v1 on gutterhulk-- a 2v2 map? 3rd, did you register an account to just make this post?
lastly, since you got 3 strikes from me I'm simply not going to look at the replay, however, that is odd he went from 40apm to 700, however, quite hillarious nonetheless.
ive put the inside sc2gears and it looked pretty dodgy. his apm was 150 at best below 12 minute mark and suddenly shoots up to 1k and maintaining at 500-600. His actions in sc2gears are very-very spesific and multitasking really2 well. He did like 30 actions per second according to sc2gears. no human can possibly do that.
WTF!?!?! Holy shit that is the most insane thing I have ever seen. He has 1 control group for all of his roaches, he has all of them highlighted/selected and out of nowhere BAM, any Roach that got into red was immediately burrowed while he still has the entire control group selected. How the hell is that even possible?
It is humanly impossible to micro correctly with 500+ apm, because you will actually hurt yourself more than anything, the fact that he did well in the fight is enough to prove that he was a cheater.
I watched the replay and I too am perplexed. If he was map hacking, he never looked into blank space (ie over your base to see through the fog) and he also did scout and never just moved to your exact spawn location so the normal signs of map hacking aren't there. But the 3 evo chambers is REALLY weird. Perhaps he just always assumes bling play in zvz and just always does it? I don't know but I don't think the map hacking can't be confirmed.
The sudden apm spike is really weird to me and I can't for the life of me figure out what happened. I am just as confused about this as you OP.
edit - Just watched again and noticed his queen in the main NEVER missed an injection and never go over 26 energy all game (usually perfect on 25) expect early game when he used it to kill banes. Freaking unbelievable!
It's like whenever a Roach got into the Orange/Red health line it auto burrowed somehow. If you watch the replay closely almost every roach that dies is being killed mid-burrow animation.
On April 07 2011 07:44 Roggay wrote: It is humanly impossible to micro correctly with 500+ apm, because you will actually hurt yourself more than anything, the fact that he did well in the fight is enough to prove that he was a cheater.
yes you're right, july was never clocked at 900 apm while playing broodwar. you sir are right. And i mean, all the people you see with 350 constant apm in sc2 don't really have 350 x 4 = 1400/3 = 470ish REAL apm.
lol are you trolling or so oblivious and ignorant its not even funny?
He actually micros those roaches so fast that the circle around them doesn't appear while burrowing them... But yer he doesn't look at any blank space(except when he's sending the roaches infront of your nat), amd yer this is in the least very dubious...
Watching replay, I'll pop back to this post and document some times where he does something suspicious.
Start-flawless 3-3 drone split 8:30-injects larvae without selecting queen, or selecting it too quickly for the replay to handle. In fact, he does this throughout the game, with the queens hotkey'd to 9 and 0, as if he just needed them hotkey'd somewhere so a program could inject for him 16:50-looks around at places through the fog without action (The high ground third, and his opponent's high ground third far rocks) 18:00-well, the aforementioned god micro. He has all roaches selected throughout the fight yet as soon as a roach reaches red it not only burrows but also moves backwards. Just look at that controll group 1 syndrome! he has burrowed roaches engaging a spinecrawler at one point along side the rest of his army.
As for the theory that this is a Jaedong smurf or something...well just look at all the fundamental mistakes he makes. Namely the camera, I don't think in a single point in the game does he snap the camera using f1 or a hotkey, he scrolls the entire time. No sc1 pro would do this.
What bewilders me is how difficult this kind of program would be to write. That's something often forgotten about some of the ridiculous hack claims, someone had to write this program and get it into the sc2 files without the game reading it as an unknown version. That being said, this is not natural.
There is a project making a programmed AI using directly Direct x 3d pipeline to detect units/ everything on the screen. This seems to be a very elaborate version of some kind of programmed AI. Didn't watch the replay but what your discribing seems like framelike command precision. It could be considered a 'hack'. But this seems to not be a ladder game. The creator might just want to try it on some humans while not messing with the ladder. I'm certainly more impressed than upset by this 'hack'
His selection doesn't even seem to change. He has his larva selected and is making more roaches and then seemingly his roaches burrow themselves as they drop to red health and he continues making roaches with the same selection which is pretty close to reasonably impossible. Look at 17:40-17:44.
New maphacks can lock replay cameras so you won't be able to see him looking through the FOW. Check to see if his screen stops moving around at some random location in his base, probably checkin out yours.
On April 07 2011 07:54 Marradron wrote: There is a project making a programmed AI using directly Direct x 3d pipeline to detect units/ everything on the screen. This seems to be a very elaborate version of some kind of programmed AI. Didn't watch the replay but what your discribing seems like framelike command precision. It could be considered a 'hack'. But this seems to not be a ladder game. The creator might just want to try it on some humans while not messing with the ladder. I'm certainly more impressed than upset by this 'hack'
edit: w00t post 1000
it is a ladder game
Version : 1.3.1.18221 Date : 2011-04-07 04:42:44 Game length : 00:15:11 Game speed : Faster Game type : AutoMM Format : 1v1 Gateway : America Clients : Samyaza, UnKoWnSkiLL Map name : The Shattered Temple Map file : 5e/42/5e426597c525ac57d6a67bae00345517f37e070039b1f34d9d8142d57566af74.s2ma Map size : 160x160 Map playable size: 132x134
What league was this in? If it was diamond/masters, it's not entirely impossible that you played someone who doesn't apm spam and is just really good at micro. Nothing in there was concrete that he was hacking, just insanely good micro really, but who knows, maybe there is some bot that auto burrows your low health roaches.
There definitely were some shenanigans with that roach micro, and it's obviously a third party program. Watch his unit selection while during that big battle -- he has his larvae selected, and he's making more roaches. While he's selecting his larvae, any roach that hits red burrows -- there's no possible way he could have done that.
Well... He did effectively pull you away from your spine crawlers... but WOW. That level of micro was insane, along with the sudden surge up to 600+ apm. That was almost inhuman to watch from his perspective.
July had a momentary apm of 818 once, but i doubt it was for that long. If it wasn't on the ladder and the guy is testing his AI program, there's nothing wrong with that.
On April 07 2011 07:59 HowSoOnIsNow wrote: July had a momentary apm of 818 once, but i doubt it was for that long. If it wasn't on the ladder and the guy is testing his AI program, there's nothing wrong with that.
OP mislabled replay, it was a ladder game on Shattered Temple
On April 07 2011 07:59 HowSoOnIsNow wrote: July had a momentary apm of 818 once, but i doubt it was for that long. If it wasn't on the ladder and the guy is testing his AI program, there's nothing wrong with that.
OP mislabled replay, it was a ladder game on Shattered Temple
I think sc2replayed.com automatically messes it up on any new map, at least it has for me as well.
On April 07 2011 07:59 HowSoOnIsNow wrote: July had a momentary apm of 818 once, but i doubt it was for that long. If it wasn't on the ladder and the guy is testing his AI program, there's nothing wrong with that.
I have to disagree with this. Even if it wasn't a ladder game it strikes me as a fairly unsportsmanlike move to test an AI on an unsuspecting player. At the least he should have told you if he was testing an AI and he should just have done testing with his friends.
Also, is this actually allowed, even if it isn't on ladder?
[Edit] If its on ladder there is no way in hell this should be allowed.
i just googled abt this and its surreal how much illegal software available freely for sc2. hopefully blizzard will handle this problem soon otherwise, ladder will be dead especially on lower level.
This is pretty crazy. I think we might be seeing bots dominating online tournaments in a few months if these guys figure out how to make it not so blatantly obvious.
On April 07 2011 08:03 sicajung wrote: i just googled abt this and its surreal how much illegal software available freely for sc2. hopefully blizzard will handle this problem soon otherwise, ladder will be dead especially on lower level.
I just did this as well. Amazing what some simple Googling pulls up.
Is it just me or have there been a lot more hacker threads popping up recently?
1. The roach micro. I don't think anybody will disagree with me when I say that it's essentially impossible to do that while not having the roaches selected in the first place. 2. Injects. I don't think that even the best player in the world after 20 minutes of macroing would have missed ZERO injects by even one second on 2 base while doing any build even under no pressure. It only looks stranger when you check out the roach battle. Even then no missed injects.
On April 07 2011 08:03 sicajung wrote: i just googled abt this and its surreal how much illegal software available freely for sc2. hopefully blizzard will handle this problem soon otherwise, ladder will be dead especially on lower level.
I just did this as well. Amazing what some simple Googling pulls up.
Is it just me or have there been a lot more hacker threads popping up recently?
It's not just you, and I'm guessing it's somewhat indicative of increasing number of hackers.
On April 07 2011 08:06 Amui wrote: Okay things I found suspicious.
1. The roach micro. I don't think anybody will disagree with me when I say that it's essentially impossible to do that while not having the roaches selected in the first place. 2. Injects. I don't think that even the best player in the world after 20 minutes of macroing would have missed ZERO injects by even one second on 2 base while doing any build even under no pressure. It only looks stranger when you check out the roach battle. Even then no missed injects.
Not missing a single inject during the entire game while keeping up 600apm roach micro. I think the ultimate zerg king of starcraft has finally descended.
I rarely download replays but couldn't resist this one... That was certainly quite interesting. The micro part is quite extraordinary although possible to do in reality if you just really are that good. I don't think anyone is that good to have such flawless control right now, though. The evo chambers point towards cheating more than the micro.
On a side note, imagine the day when micro like that becomes the standard for being the best.
It looks like he's using something that autoburrows his roaches when they get to low health. He doesn't even click on them individually. Watch the battle at 17:25.
edit: Oh and during that battle he doesn't click on his queens (and he doesn't have them hotkeyed either) while still spending their whole energy.
On April 07 2011 08:06 Kantutan wrote: I rarely download replays but couldn't resist this one... That was certainly quite interesting. The micro part is quite extraordinary although possible to do in reality if you just really are that good. I don't think anyone is that good to have such flawless control right now, though.
It is less about the fact that he did it, and more about the inhuman consistency. They all burrow at the same trigger, and all move back the same distance. If it was just a bunch of well timed burrows coming from someone like Jaedong, I would buy it.
This guy has two accounts (one each in NA and SEA) and is currently 22-0 and 32-0 in diamond. We might actually see him at #1 and #2 in the world above MKP in a couple of weeks, lol.
EDIT: nvm. I forgot we don't see losses anymore below master league. He still seems to have a very good ratio though (90%+) judging by his match history.
Everything up to the roach micro could have been very good play/lucky guessing, but I don't doubt there was some software doing the roach micro for him, so it seems reasonable to guess he was also maphacking.
On April 07 2011 07:58 Alokiya wrote: What league was this in? If it was diamond/masters, it's not entirely impossible that you played someone who doesn't apm spam and is just really good at micro. Nothing in there was concrete that he was hacking, just insanely good micro really, but who knows, maybe there is some bot that auto burrows your low health roaches.
Jezus, did you even watch that replay?
No-one plays at 500+ APM and no-one can perfectly burrow every red health roach in a 50 roach vs 50 roach battle. You don't even see him clicking on units, he has his group of roaches selected the entire time but he still somehow manages to burrow them individually.
Seriously, I doubt anyone can watch that and say it's humanly possible to execute..
Just to be clear, the guy isn't just moving fast. His units are operating perfectly and independently. He is not selecting his queens but they are injecting. He doesn't select his roaches but they burrow.
It's either a bug in the replay file (seems unlikely) or a hack.
He's using a new hack that's not too hard to find. In addition to standard map hack it can auto drone, overlord, inject, it can macro up unit combinations like muta/ling for you. Does the sames stuff for Protoss and Terran too. Also a hud that shows your opponent units/supply/etc
And that's the free version, the pay one probably has the micro hacks in it
On April 07 2011 08:20 Jimoteh wrote: Is it possible that this was a custom game played on slow speed? I've never tried, but I assume you can do that and the replay will play on 'faster'.
You think OP would mistake playing a custom game on slowest possible settings with a ladder match on fastest? Good first post
I have heard there is a production tab hack so he does not need to look into blank spaces. This a pretty obvious case of hacking just based on the evos without even mentioning the apm hack.
This might be the coolest hack ever. It would've been awesome if he had named himself something like Jaedong or Flash. Everyone would be freaking out right now. Of course, jd and flash would never play SC2.
On April 07 2011 08:19 Like a Boss wrote: wasnt there a hack that show your opponents production table, that would explain his evo chambers.
that sounds like an answer. so, he had Roach burrow, Queen larva inject and Production tab hack. LOL. I guess, the next hack will be a blink stalker hack and a Marine split hack. I am looking forward to laddering.
Am I the only one who doesn't get why anyone would want all these hacks? (I mean obviously in my opinion it takes a special kind of asshole to cheat or hack in general).
It seems like all of this stuff takes all human functions out of the game. Why bother to play when all you are going to do is watch as the computer takes care of everything for you.
On April 07 2011 07:58 Alokiya wrote: What league was this in? If it was diamond/masters, it's not entirely impossible that you played someone who doesn't apm spam and is just really good at micro. Nothing in there was concrete that he was hacking, just insanely good micro really, but who knows, maybe there is some bot that auto burrows your low health roaches.
Dude, if you're looking for 100% conclusive proof that someone is hacking, nobody will ever be caught no matter what. This dude is obviously hacking. He doesn't even need a map hack, there's a production tab hack according to that Protech dude who was involved in the iGware/Sorcery incident.
On April 07 2011 08:28 FaiL_SaFe wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't get why anyone would want all these hacks? (I mean obviously in my opinion it takes a special kind of asshole to cheat or hack in general).
It seems like all of this stuff takes all human functions out of the game. Why bother to play when all you are going to do is watch as the computer takes care of everything for you.
Winning games and obtaining high ranks. A lot of people would do anything for those.
My favorite part was the part where he never selected a queen one time the entire game to do those perfectly timed 25 energy injects. First time i've see someone using an auto queen injecting bot. Too bad the guy was horrible and couldn't put it to use =P
Rofl, thats so crazy! Yeah hes def hacking, he kept looking at his overlord at rocks thinking its units and he looked at his army for 5 minutes with his army pretending to "A" move thats sad -.-
wow that must be a funky little program that can control all that junk for him. People who hack on ladder deserve to get banned + their accounts closed though. If you want to test your bot do it in a custom at least.
I hope blizz is on top of things and finds + crushes all who cheat on ladder asaply. It would really ruin the game if half your matches were played against people with elaborate macro scripts or bots.
Yeah. The queen part was the first tip off. They inject without being selected. The roach micro would even be more believable if the guy was being very active with a high apm already but it looks so much more like a hack when out of nowhere it kicks up to 400-700apm.
That was a pretty crazy and obvious micro hack. The sad part is that if there are micro helping hacks that are less obvious, players could get away with it so easily.
On April 07 2011 07:54 Marradron wrote: There is a project making a programmed AI using directly Direct x 3d pipeline to detect units/ everything on the screen. This seems to be a very elaborate version of some kind of programmed AI. Didn't watch the replay but what your discribing seems like framelike command precision. It could be considered a 'hack'. But this seems to not be a ladder game. The creator might just want to try it on some humans while not messing with the ladder. I'm certainly more impressed than upset by this 'hack'
On April 07 2011 08:20 Jimoteh wrote: Is it possible that this was a custom game played on slow speed? I've never tried, but I assume you can do that and the replay will play on 'faster'.
You think OP would mistake playing a custom game on slowest possible settings with a ladder match on fastest? Good first post
I'm just saying, if you play on slow you can pull this kind of micro off and look inhumanly fast. Would the OP do that, upload it and pretend it's a ladder game? Probably not, but it's possible.
quick google gave me a reddit thread on this issue:
Edit: on second thought, removed the link here because it might be against TL policy or something @_@
also a battle.net thread on it. Hopefully the guy gets banned soon. But yes, such a thing does exist, and not just for zerg. I'd suggest posting on the battle.net forums too, i'm sure blizzard would be very interested in detecting and banning this type of software.
On April 07 2011 08:28 FaiL_SaFe wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't get why anyone would want all these hacks? (I mean obviously in my opinion it takes a special kind of asshole to cheat or hack in general).
It seems like all of this stuff takes all human functions out of the game. Why bother to play when all you are going to do is watch as the computer takes care of everything for you.
Winning games and obtaining high ranks. A lot of people would do anything for those.
But it is impossible to compete with that higher rank if you don't have skill to back it up....I agree with FaiL_SaFe. I really don't see why people do this.
On April 07 2011 08:24 floor exercise wrote: He's using a new hack that's not too hard to find. In addition to standard map hack it can auto drone, overlord, inject, it can macro up unit combinations like muta/ling for you. Does the sames stuff for Protoss and Terran too. Also a hud that shows your opponent units/supply/etc
And that's the free version, the pay one probably has the micro hacks in it
Jesus Christ, so sad what some people are willing to do to ruin the competitive spirit of this game. Why even buy and play it at all if you just have a bot do everything for you? This guy is obviously map hacking in addition to using whatever program this is. Scary.
But on a more positive note, that would make a pretty amazing practice AI.
On April 07 2011 08:28 FaiL_SaFe wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't get why anyone would want all these hacks? (I mean obviously in my opinion it takes a special kind of asshole to cheat or hack in general).
It seems like all of this stuff takes all human functions out of the game. Why bother to play when all you are going to do is watch as the computer takes care of everything for you.
Haha, why would anybody use any hacks? Obviously its to get the wins they so desperately crave but don't have the skill to do.
What makes this worse is that it can happen in tournaments too and with money on the line, it becomes even more deplorable. I haven't watched the replay yet but I will soon. Funny thing is that even with this, I'm pretty sure a great player can beat this haha.
On April 07 2011 08:28 FaiL_SaFe wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't get why anyone would want all these hacks? (I mean obviously in my opinion it takes a special kind of asshole to cheat or hack in general).
It seems like all of this stuff takes all human functions out of the game. Why bother to play when all you are going to do is watch as the computer takes care of everything for you.
Winning games and obtaining high ranks. A lot of people would do anything for those.
But it is impossible to compete with that higher rank if you don't have skill to back it up....I agree with FaiL_SaFe. I really don't see why people do this.
Really? I have to argue that things like auto-larvae inject and perfect battle micro will definitely allow you to compete at the top of the ladder if you just sort of know what you're doing. iGware/Sorcery got to global #5 with just his maphack/production tab hack when his skill is absolutely nowhere near that level. Imagine adding AI-controlled perfect macro and micro to that.
On April 07 2011 08:28 FaiL_SaFe wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't get why anyone would want all these hacks? (I mean obviously in my opinion it takes a special kind of asshole to cheat or hack in general).
It seems like all of this stuff takes all human functions out of the game. Why bother to play when all you are going to do is watch as the computer takes care of everything for you.
Winning games and obtaining high ranks. A lot of people would do anything for those.
But it is impossible to compete with that higher rank if you don't have skill to back it up....I agree with FaiL_SaFe. I really don't see why people do this.
... That is why they hack, they are not skilled so they substitute skill with hacks...
Pretty damn obvious though, the queen was up to ~18 energy from after the banelings and got brought down to 0 again through pure injects and the roach burrow micro with horrible 1a micro into spines. I sincerely hope it gets patched and banned though, I'm going to have to look back at my replays and see since there's a few games which I think might be suspect as well =/.
On April 07 2011 08:38 floor exercise wrote: Here's what the zerg overlay looks like:
You decide what it makes and whether to inject and make overlords as well
Well. I am not laddering until there's a patch or a post from Blizzard addressing this. Totally shocked something like this could be created, but I'm sure they'll respond quickly.
On April 07 2011 08:20 Jimoteh wrote: Is it possible that this was a custom game played on slow speed? I've never tried, but I assume you can do that and the replay will play on 'faster'.
You think OP would mistake playing a custom game on slowest possible settings with a ladder match on fastest? Good first post
I'm just saying, if you play on slow you can pull this kind of micro off and look inhumanly fast. Would the OP do that, upload it and pretend it's a ladder game? Probably not, but it's possible.
You signed up to teamliquid to say OP could have made a custom slow game, somehow lured a high level player into it, microed perfectly without selecting units and telling his opponent to maintain a playing speed that would seem believeable when replayed on fastest speed, only to make a thread here and pretend he's the other player and claim he's been victimized by hacks.
Right now in SC2 you can't really outplay someone severely enough to counter a smart player with a maphack. It's not exactly like in BW where Day9 could crush some BGH scrub while granting him vision and only using lurkers. Blizzard has to get really, really tough on hackers.
On April 07 2011 08:38 floor exercise wrote: Here's what the zerg overlay looks like:
You decide what it makes and whether to inject and make overlords as well
Well. I am not laddering until there's a patch or a post from Blizzard addressing this. Totally shocked something like this could be created, but I'm sure they'll respond quickly.
I doubt the micro and macro part of it can be patched. Those parts would be out of game resources such as a timer and taking screenshots. Not laddering is a bit of an over reaction as I don't think you will run into this often if at all. If you do run into it you can submit a report against them, which is probably a lot better than inaction (assuming no one else does). The hack doesn't seem complicated and I'm not too surprised that it sprouted up, but I hope the next ban wave catches as close to 100% of the hackers as possible.
On April 07 2011 08:38 floor exercise wrote: Here's what the zerg overlay looks like:
You decide what it makes and whether to inject and make overlords as well
Well. I am not laddering until there's a patch or a post from Blizzard addressing this. Totally shocked something like this could be created, but I'm sure they'll respond quickly.
Going by Blizzard's history with hacks, all they'll do is just issuing ban waves every year or so. Unfortunately, you'll just have to accept that because the hacks will never go away and dealing with hacks has never seemed to be high on Blizzard's priorities.
I really think its hard to tell what this guy is, I don't think he is, just because yes it is possible to micro at 500 or 600 apm, if it was a program I would think that it would unburrow as soon as the roach reaches 100 hp, and he did lose quite a few roaches. As for people saying he injects without looking at his base, I see no problem with that, he could be VERY good at mechanics and you can inject by selecting the queen and v clicking where your hatch is on the mini-map, Infact I would probably use my macro keyboard and assign a G-Key to do 9 v M1 click and just leave my mouse over my hatchery. It just seems like it wouldn't be a computer it's too obvious.
On April 07 2011 08:38 floor exercise wrote: Here's what the zerg overlay looks like:
You decide what it makes and whether to inject and make overlords as well
Well. I am not laddering until there's a patch or a post from Blizzard addressing this. Totally shocked something like this could be created, but I'm sure they'll respond quickly.
I doubt the micro and macro part of it can be patched. Those parts would be out of game resources such as a timer and taking screenshots. Not laddering is a bit of an over reaction as I don't think you will run into this often if at all. If you do run into it you can submit a report against them, which is probably a lot better than inaction (assuming no one else does). The hack doesn't seem complicated and I'm not too surprised that it sprouted up, but I hope the next ban wave catches as close to 100% of the hackers as possible.
Warden (Blizzard's anticheat program) checks for programs running in the background, that's the whole point of it being there.
On April 07 2011 08:38 floor exercise wrote: Here's what the zerg overlay looks like:
You decide what it makes and whether to inject and make overlords as well
Well. I am not laddering until there's a patch or a post from Blizzard addressing this. Totally shocked something like this could be created, but I'm sure they'll respond quickly.
I doubt the micro and macro part of it can be patched. Those parts would be out of game resources such as a timer and taking screenshots. Not laddering is a bit of an over reaction as I don't think you will run into this often if at all. If you do run into it you can submit a report against them, which is probably a lot better than inaction (assuming no one else does). The hack doesn't seem complicated and I'm not too surprised that it sprouted up, but I hope the next ban wave catches as close to 100% of the hackers as possible.
Warden (Blizzard's anticheat program) checks for programs running in the background, that's the whole point of it being there.
It would seem that an experienced hacker would be able to hide his program from warden. It would be silly to do that, though, if he makes it obvious by letting his apm get up to 800. An oversight or he just doesn't care IMO
On April 07 2011 09:01 Dubz wrote: its obviously a bot.. it's like Athene's replay where he beats the insane ai's or whatever, if you watch that replay its obvious bot like this one
Dont give him more credit than is due. He just abused the AI a little in a way that anyone can do with some practice.
On April 07 2011 08:57 HFcinfinity wrote: I really think its hard to tell what this guy is, I don't think he is, just because yes it is possible to micro at 500 or 600 apm, if it was a program I would think that it would unburrow as soon as the roach reaches 100 hp, and he did lose quite a few roaches. As for people saying he injects without looking at his base, I see no problem with that, he could be VERY good at mechanics and you can inject by selecting the queen and v clicking where your hatch is on the mini-map, Infact I would probably use my macro keyboard and assign a G-Key to do 9 v M1 click and just leave my mouse over my hatchery. It just seems like it wouldn't be a computer it's too obvious.
he burrows individual roaches without having them selected
he injects not only without looking at his hatchery, but without having his queen even selected
he does things that are physically impossible. And by that I don't mean "Jaedong could do this if he switched over to SC2". I mean it's literally physically impossible because there's no way to inject without having your queen selected.
On April 07 2011 07:38 majestouch wrote: first off this is the wrong forum for hacking posts (there is a thread for it search "tl hacker database" i'm too lazy to link you to it) 2nd, why were you playing 1v1 on gutterhulk-- a 2v2 map? 3rd, did you register an account to just make this post?
lastly, since you got 3 strikes from me I'm simply not going to look at the replay, however, that is odd he went from 40apm to 700, however, quite hillarious nonetheless.
On April 07 2011 08:57 HFcinfinity wrote: I really think its hard to tell what this guy is, I don't think he is, just because yes it is possible to micro at 500 or 600 apm, if it was a program I would think that it would unburrow as soon as the roach reaches 100 hp, and he did lose quite a few roaches. As for people saying he injects without looking at his base, I see no problem with that, he could be VERY good at mechanics and you can inject by selecting the queen and v clicking where your hatch is on the mini-map, Infact I would probably use my macro keyboard and assign a G-Key to do 9 v M1 click and just leave my mouse over my hatchery. It just seems like it wouldn't be a computer it's too obvious.
he burrows individual roaches without having them selected
he injects not only without looking at his hatchery, but without having his queen even selected
he does things that are physically impossible. And by that I don't mean "Jaedong could do this if he switched over to SC2". I mean it's literally physically impossible because there's no way to inject without having your queen selected.
I didn't realize this. If it is true that is so fucking cool. Why would someone with these skills choose to abuse vs random kids in sc2 i cannot begin to guess.
On April 07 2011 08:57 HFcinfinity wrote: I really think its hard to tell what this guy is, I don't think he is, just because yes it is possible to micro at 500 or 600 apm, if it was a program I would think that it would unburrow as soon as the roach reaches 100 hp, and he did lose quite a few roaches. As for people saying he injects without looking at his base, I see no problem with that, he could be VERY good at mechanics and you can inject by selecting the queen and v clicking where your hatch is on the mini-map, Infact I would probably use my macro keyboard and assign a G-Key to do 9 v M1 click and just leave my mouse over my hatchery. It just seems like it wouldn't be a computer it's too obvious.
Im not sure how dense you are. But ill humour you. May i see a replay of someone well known microing at 500-800 apm and doing perfect injects? Without the queen selected?
On April 07 2011 09:01 Dubz wrote: its obviously a bot.. it's like Athene's replay where he beats the insane ai's or whatever, if you watch that replay its obvious bot like this one
On April 07 2011 09:01 gogogadgetflow wrote:Dont give him more credit than is due. He just abused the AI a little in a way that anyone can do with some practice.
On April 07 2011 08:57 HFcinfinity wrote: I really think its hard to tell what this guy is, I don't think he is, just because yes it is possible to micro at 500 or 600 apm, if it was a program I would think that it would unburrow as soon as the roach reaches 100 hp, and he did lose quite a few roaches. As for people saying he injects without looking at his base, I see no problem with that, he could be VERY good at mechanics and you can inject by selecting the queen and v clicking where your hatch is on the mini-map, Infact I would probably use my macro keyboard and assign a G-Key to do 9 v M1 click and just leave my mouse over my hatchery. It just seems like it wouldn't be a computer it's too obvious.
he burrows individual roaches without having them selected
he injects not only without looking at his hatchery, but without having his queen even selected
he does things that are physically impossible. And by that I don't mean "Jaedong could do this if he switched over to SC2". I mean it's literally physically impossible because there's no way to inject without having your queen selected.
I didn't realize this. If it is true that is so fucking cool. Why would someone with these skills choose to abuse vs random kids in sc2 i cannot begin to guess.
On April 07 2011 08:38 floor exercise wrote: Here's what the zerg overlay looks like:
You decide what it makes and whether to inject and make overlords as well
Well. I am not laddering until there's a patch or a post from Blizzard addressing this. Totally shocked something like this could be created, but I'm sure they'll respond quickly.
I doubt the micro and macro part of it can be patched. Those parts would be out of game resources such as a timer and taking screenshots. Not laddering is a bit of an over reaction as I don't think you will run into this often if at all. If you do run into it you can submit a report against them, which is probably a lot better than inaction (assuming no one else does). The hack doesn't seem complicated and I'm not too surprised that it sprouted up, but I hope the next ban wave catches as close to 100% of the hackers as possible.
Warden (Blizzard's anticheat program) checks for programs running in the background, that's the whole point of it being there.
It would seem that an experienced hacker would be able to hide his program from warden. It would be silly to do that, though, if he makes it obvious by letting his apm get up to 800. An oversight or he just doesn't care IMO
Warden is basically a list of programs that it checks your computer for. It's pretty much legal spyware; you can't "hide" something from it, you can only create newer and newer hacks to get ahead of the curve. I guarantee any hack that random TL members could find easily with google is in Warden's library. Blizzard bans in huge waves partly to entrap those who would hack, but also to keep those who actually make the hacks in the dark as to whether or not their hack has been added to the list yet.
With overlord speed and ventral sacs the bot would only loose roches that get one-shotted.
Gladly i dont think there is to much money to be made with bots so it won't end like DiabloII. Sadly things like this will make automated online tournaments for money a joke.
Damn that's pretty crazy. This is worse than maphacking. At least with maphacks, you could still beat him with good macro and control. With computer assisted micro this is kind of stupid.
On April 07 2011 08:38 floor exercise wrote: Here's what the zerg overlay looks like:
You decide what it makes and whether to inject and make overlords as well
Well. I am not laddering until there's a patch or a post from Blizzard addressing this. Totally shocked something like this could be created, but I'm sure they'll respond quickly.
Going by Blizzard's history with hacks, all they'll do is just issuing ban waves every year or so. Unfortunately, you'll just have to accept that because the hacks will never go away and dealing with hacks has never seemed to be high on Blizzard's priorities.
SC2 is still really new though, they're usually really good about banning hackers right away when the game is still new.
On April 07 2011 09:01 Dubz wrote: its obviously a bot.. it's like Athene's replay where he beats the insane ai's or whatever, if you watch that replay its obvious bot like this one
On April 07 2011 09:01 gogogadgetflow wrote:Dont give him more credit than is due. He just abused the AI a little in a way that anyone can do with some practice.
On April 07 2011 08:57 HFcinfinity wrote: I really think its hard to tell what this guy is, I don't think he is, just because yes it is possible to micro at 500 or 600 apm, if it was a program I would think that it would unburrow as soon as the roach reaches 100 hp, and he did lose quite a few roaches. As for people saying he injects without looking at his base, I see no problem with that, he could be VERY good at mechanics and you can inject by selecting the queen and v clicking where your hatch is on the mini-map, Infact I would probably use my macro keyboard and assign a G-Key to do 9 v M1 click and just leave my mouse over my hatchery. It just seems like it wouldn't be a computer it's too obvious.
he burrows individual roaches without having them selected
he injects not only without looking at his hatchery, but without having his queen even selected
he does things that are physically impossible. And by that I don't mean "Jaedong could do this if he switched over to SC2". I mean it's literally physically impossible because there's no way to inject without having your queen selected.
I didn't realize this. If it is true that is so fucking cool. Why would someone with these skills choose to abuse vs random kids in sc2 i cannot begin to guess.
you're really just not getting it
ok I admit I've never watched an athene replay. I dont get why he would release a botted replay when he can just abuse the AI to victory anyways... so I made an assumption. my bad.
OT I watched the replay just now and I thought it was pretty fucking cool. Maybe its more common than I think because I've never googled for hacks -.-
Judging from the current state of WoW and Warcraft 3, I wouldn't hold your breath on Blizzard dealing with this is an even remotely efficient fashion.
Just be glad that we had a few months of the game being more or less 'pure', before these hacks start to dominate to the point that ladder is nearly unplayable legit.
Definitely a hack, i mean he instantly shoots to 700apm and its STEADY, not just spiking in the heat of a battle.
Obviously to do perfect injects he had to at some point select the queens. The scary thing is, this program does it so fast, and returns to his previous selection, that you actually can't see it happen... because thats over 1000 real apm.
This is actually impossible, in fact MANY KEYBOARDS CANT EVEN IMPUT OVER 500 APM, even if you hold down you command center hotkey. To actually do what hes doing, with a human being, he would need to play with more apm than actually holding down a key. If he could really do this he would be one of the best player's in the world.
The fastest typing speed every recorded was 216 words per minute (around 1000 "actions/characters" a minute). This guy is "playing" faster than that, and he has only one hand on the keyboard.
I wonder if those people who work so hard to try to deny hacks while there is video evidence of them are hacking themselves, and are simply trying to convince other people they really don't exist. It takes a special kind of...blindness... to have video evidence of something in front of you, then deny it exists.
I just watched the replay. It WAS very shady that he all of a sudden had crawlers ready for your banelings. The guy never bothered to scout your expansion until very late. At 16:48 somehow he knew you had already killed the rocks to his third. At 17:04 he decided to attack and paused at your natural for like 8 seconds looking at nothing but the fog of war.
After watching this a few times here are two conclusions:
The program he is using: 1. Burrows roaches after they fall below 45 health and unburrow them after they reach full. 2. The program works only if he has the roaches highlighted. His roaches only burrow and unburrow if he has them selected. 3. He never scouted your base or the lings or the banelings coming but he knew all of the harassments were coming. 4. His queens were perfectly injecting even though he never selected them. 5. His queens continued to inject while no selecting of the queens is necessary. 6. His program does not do his upgrades because his upgrades were delayed.
He doesn't look at his queens injecting, even if you do it through the minimap, you SELECT the queen to do it, the only time he selects his queen in the replay is as soon as they pop to put on a hotkey he never uses.
No human can burrow and move roaches like that, the program that micros obviously has a threshold it puts on how low the hp of a roach can get before burrowing. The only time roaches die is when they are being spotted by the overseer burrowed or when roaches pile on an enemy roach and spit so much damage the program can't burrow the unit in time.
Doesn't scout with an overseer til the 16 min mark....standard for someone with 600 apm. -.-
You can even tell that this guy isn't a top player with his screen movement and army movement. 3 evo chambers blindly to block early speedling baneling pressure into roach. Has a ton of defense but still decides to build a ton of roaches early for no reason. Makes an expansion that isn't used for 5 min of the game while piling roaches on the ramp. The list goes on forever.
On April 07 2011 08:20 Jimoteh wrote: Is it possible that this was a custom game played on slow speed? I've never tried, but I assume you can do that and the replay will play on 'faster'.
You think OP would mistake playing a custom game on slowest possible settings with a ladder match on fastest? Good first post
I'm just saying, if you play on slow you can pull this kind of micro off and look inhumanly fast. Would the OP do that, upload it and pretend it's a ladder game? Probably not, but it's possible.
You signed up to teamliquid to say OP could have made a custom slow game, somehow lured a high level player into it, microed perfectly without selecting units and telling his opponent to maintain a playing speed that would seem believeable when replayed on fastest speed, only to make a thread here and pretend he's the other player and claim he's been victimized by hacks.
Profit?
given how horrible the macro of both players was, i doubt this was the case anyway (well they probably just needed more larvae to spend all of that money) its really really impressive micro, botted or otherwise i immediately think of how awesome the hack is and how it could be improved (if it is indeed a hack), is that just me? (eg. wtf burrow under an enemy overseer) i assume the evo chambers were entirely for blocking
On April 07 2011 09:30 lulzury wrote: . At 16:48 somehow he knew you had already killed the rocks to his third.
If you watch closely, he scouts his opponent and see that he have brought down his rocks to the 3d and then he thought "oh i might do that aswell while im idle". atleast thats what i think. I don't think he's maphacking, its very hard to see if somebody is maphacking if he's doing it well. There's so many explanations for doing stuff that looks a bit fuzzy.
On April 07 2011 08:57 HFcinfinity wrote: I really think its hard to tell what this guy is, I don't think he is, just because yes it is possible to micro at 500 or 600 apm, if it was a program I would think that it would unburrow as soon as the roach reaches 100 hp, and he did lose quite a few roaches. As for people saying he injects without looking at his base, I see no problem with that, he could be VERY good at mechanics and you can inject by selecting the queen and v clicking where your hatch is on the mini-map, Infact I would probably use my macro keyboard and assign a G-Key to do 9 v M1 click and just leave my mouse over my hatchery. It just seems like it wouldn't be a computer it's too obvious.
he burrows individual roaches without having them selected
he injects not only without looking at his hatchery, but without having his queen even selected
he does things that are physically impossible. And by that I don't mean "Jaedong could do this if he switched over to SC2". I mean it's literally physically impossible because there's no way to inject without having your queen selected.
I didn't realize this. If it is true that is so fucking cool. Why would someone with these skills choose to abuse vs random kids in sc2 i cannot begin to guess.
I'm with you on this. This is extremely curious to me from an intellectual perspective. I can't even imagine how someone would begin to program something like this.
I'm torn. The roach micro clearly did not seem right to me. I'm pretty convinced there's some third party something going on there. For the queen injects, he may have had some keyboard macro written where you can recall a series of actions after the first time you do it (like recording it). That way, he may have done the mini-map inject the first time, and then just hit a key to do it insanely fast after that.
I don't think it's 100% bot though. There was distinct human like elements that showed up at times. His inject was late by a few seconds when he was attacked, there was a very random spam click roach move pattern when defending, etc.
Pretty crazy though, I'd like to know what's exactly going on here.
I dont understand why blizzard cant stop these hacks, not in D2, not in War3, and not in Sc2 either. A simple google search and it brings up the exact hack the player in the replay used.
Also, I dont see why people think its so amazing to make a hack like this. Its pretty much the same as writing an AI, when you try to do macro.
Roach micro -> When unit Hp < X, R+Move Command X distance towards Base This of course is provided that you have them all selected or something.
I imagine a marine micro split will be somewhat similar. Bind a function to a key that orders all marines to immediately move x distance away from other marines. Im not a programmer myself, but these codes are definetely not impossible to write, and probably not hard if you know how.
On April 07 2011 08:57 HFcinfinity wrote: I really think its hard to tell what this guy is, I don't think he is, just because yes it is possible to micro at 500 or 600 apm, if it was a program I would think that it would unburrow as soon as the roach reaches 100 hp, and he did lose quite a few roaches. As for people saying he injects without looking at his base, I see no problem with that, he could be VERY good at mechanics and you can inject by selecting the queen and v clicking where your hatch is on the mini-map, Infact I would probably use my macro keyboard and assign a G-Key to do 9 v M1 click and just leave my mouse over my hatchery. It just seems like it wouldn't be a computer it's too obvious.
he burrows individual roaches without having them selected
he injects not only without looking at his hatchery, but without having his queen even selected
he does things that are physically impossible. And by that I don't mean "Jaedong could do this if he switched over to SC2". I mean it's literally physically impossible because there's no way to inject without having your queen selected.
I didn't realize this. If it is true that is so fucking cool. Why would someone with these skills choose to abuse vs random kids in sc2 i cannot begin to guess.
I'm with you on this. This is extremely curious to me from an intellectual perspective. I can't even imagine how someone would begin to program something like this.
This is definitly some sort program or "something", Not to say that nobody will be able to do that, but he's playing litterrally perfect. Even if you practiced this exact same scenario over and over down to the exact last detail (I am not talking about zvz roach vs roach, I mean knowing exactly every single detail about a very specific match) you still wouldn't be able to do this.
His injects are "perfect", look at the queen energy, soon as it's @ 25 it goes off. "WHILE" he is microing the ever living hell out of those roaches and spawning units.
The roach micro? doable, but not the way he's doing it. His entire army is on one hotkey and I don't really see him single targeting and burrowing roaches. This is doable though, no doubt about it. But doing this "while" you're injecting and macroing? Impossible for a human.
wow...this is gone way too far... i thought map hacks where bad but GOD this is off the chart... a hack that does the macro and micro for you? wow i hope this gets dealt whit really soon because its crazy.
and for those saying that the micro can be done by a human....
he went up to 700 apm Steady... remember thats sc2 apm so thats way more than 700... thats not possible for a human using only 1 hand on the keyboard... the keyboard would break before he could do that.
Yep. Found the Terran auto-mule and protoss auto-chrono version. Even lets you change when you want to auto-chrono based on energy reserve. Rofl
Oh and the auto-inject hack includes not ONLY a production tab hack, but also a hack that allows you to follow opponents camera movement, and locking the camera so you wont detect it in replays. Wtf.
What I really don't get, and never had and never will, is how achieving goals in any game by cheating can be satisfying? The reason I play sc2 is because i feel awesome when i did the perfect micro when i won over that guy on ladder. The reason I played CS was how I felt like top of the world when i got that sweet HS. I will never understand a cheaters mindset...
On April 07 2011 09:49 TOCHMY wrote: What I really don't get, and never had and never will, is how achieving goals in any game by cheating can be satisfying? The reason I play sc2 is because i feel awesome when i did the perfect micro when i won over that guy on ladder. The reason I played CS was how I felt like top of the world when i got that sweet HS. I will never understand a cheaters mindset...
people want to:
a) Look gosu, even if its not really them doing it...
b) They think its fun to ruin other people's days... so they hack, make other people lose, and they have fun by making you have no fun.
Why can't blizzard just go to that site, find a bunch of IP addresses and go on a mass banning spree.......
Really pains my heart to know that there are people out there that use this crap.
What I do have to wonder though...just how viable is this style of roach micro? I'm sure the idea that a burrowed roach on the front line no longer takes hit priority, so the burrowing of single units, or small groups (I.E. blinking stalkers), moving them either behind your roaches or their roaches, and unborrowing when able to take a few more hits.
I've never even seen this attempted honestly....wonder if a pro could manage a similar effect with more realistic apm.
same reason why people cheat/lie/steal in real life X_X. When the outcome of win and lose is more important/satisfying then the process of getting that achievement
What I found a bit odd with the replay is that he first moves out at 16 mins to scout with his overseer (if you don't count the first overlord scouting close air), he scouts close land position, and then cross position. Does he do that to throw people off maybe? And he sometimes very briefly moves his camera to places you wouldn't expect, like at the gold. I really hope Blizzard is aware of this, and fixes it immediately, because these programs will ruin the game.
On April 07 2011 08:17 Sein wrote: This guy has two accounts (one each in NA and SEA) and is currently 22-0 and 32-0 in diamond. We might actually see him at #1 and #2 in the world above MKP in a couple of weeks, lol.
EDIT: nvm. I forgot we don't see losses anymore below master league. He still seems to have a very good ratio though (90%+) judging by his match history.
SC2Ranks seems to be glitched, as it has been thrown off by the stupid change in bnet, everyone who isn't in masters is X-0.
Wow this is just ridiculous, this hack has been out since December if my research is correct. Someone asked when they would add a True maphack to this... here is their response.
No because this program is on the outside of starcraft and uses overlays, it is not modifying game code. There is a HUD that shows the opponents buildings,units,resources and the minimap overlay shows the buildings/units. If the program included a true maphack that patched game code then detectability goes through the roof Sad
If you are having trouble seeing attacking units coming at you (Like DTs or Banshee's) You can set a custom marker on them so they are very visable.
God that really pisses me off. Really the only way people can get caught is by us as a community continuing to report all hackers, after thorough analysis of course.
On April 07 2011 08:57 HFcinfinity wrote: I really think its hard to tell what this guy is, I don't think he is, just because yes it is possible to micro at 500 or 600 apm, if it was a program I would think that it would unburrow as soon as the roach reaches 100 hp, and he did lose quite a few roaches. As for people saying he injects without looking at his base, I see no problem with that, he could be VERY good at mechanics and you can inject by selecting the queen and v clicking where your hatch is on the mini-map, Infact I would probably use my macro keyboard and assign a G-Key to do 9 v M1 click and just leave my mouse over my hatchery. It just seems like it wouldn't be a computer it's too obvious.
he burrows individual roaches without having them selected
he injects not only without looking at his hatchery, but without having his queen even selected
he does things that are physically impossible. And by that I don't mean "Jaedong could do this if he switched over to SC2". I mean it's literally physically impossible because there's no way to inject without having your queen selected.
I didn't realize this. If it is true that is so fucking cool. Why would someone with these skills choose to abuse vs random kids in sc2 i cannot begin to guess.
I'm with you on this. This is extremely curious to me from an intellectual perspective. I can't even imagine how someone would begin to program something like this.
? Surely it took a lot of work but it doesn't strike me as anything too crazy. Judging by what I've read in threads about other hacks, it's just a piece of software that checks the outgoing network packets(the way software sends information over your LAN and the internet) from Starcraft 2, makes sure certain conditions are fulfilled, such as the roaches being highlighted and roach HP being under 45, and injects its own commands such as to burrow one and move it back. It probably looks, in the packet, exactly like your own regular human commands look.
For you people who think that this is some crazy feat of programming, go check out the BW AI contests. People have coded bots that learn how to storm dodge with mutalisks. Learn.
We are thinking about limiting the bot. Too overpower as it is now. We want people to play actively sc2.
This thing made me laugh so hard. How can you "play actively" and enjoy starcraft when a bot does all the macroing and microing for you? That doesn't make any sense...
On April 07 2011 09:39 padfoota wrote: Im not a programmer myself, but these codes are definetely not impossible to write, and probably not hard if you know how.
code that can do very specific things for the user and also can insert itself into starcraft 2 without the game thinking it is a different version of the game is VERY difficult to write even if you know how to just an fyi
On April 07 2011 09:51 Panzamelano wrote: wow... thats... disgusting... a site that just gives that hack out? omg...
Would you rather they charge money for it and make a profit off of cheating?
Probably - if nothing else, there would be less people using it and Blizzard might have more legal standing to get the site/ administrators/creators in legal trouble.
Haha that's pretty funny. Also sad considering external maphacks have and will be used in competitive play, in order to steal tournament winnings away from legit players. Sadly, the past has shown us that even the most reputable player could very well be one of those not hesitant to utilize hacks, especially when it's this easy to get away with..
It's a real shame but there's not much anyone can do in order to prevent it.
On April 07 2011 08:03 sicajung wrote: i just googled abt this and its surreal how much illegal software available freely for sc2. hopefully blizzard will handle this problem soon otherwise, ladder will be dead especially on lower level.
I think he was definitely hacking. If you notice, the roaches only unburrow when they're at full or near to full health. Also, he pulled all the red hp roaches away at the exact times, so I definitely think that some hacking is going on.
On April 07 2011 08:03 sicajung wrote: i just googled abt this and its surreal how much illegal software available freely for sc2. hopefully blizzard will handle this problem soon otherwise, ladder will be dead especially on lower level.
Holy crap, its true. I Googled, and found at least 5 maphacks that claimed to be undetectable, observer panel, and macro/micro bots... How sad for the people who would actually use that to get ladder wins... It makes me a sadpanda!
No doubt: hacking. The injects were very weird as well. For the first half of them he manually selected each queen and injected on time, but later in the game his camera wouldn't pan to each base, yet the queens would continue to inject.
On April 07 2011 08:28 FaiL_SaFe wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't get why anyone would want all these hacks? (I mean obviously in my opinion it takes a special kind of asshole to cheat or hack in general).
It seems like all of this stuff takes all human functions out of the game. Why bother to play when all you are going to do is watch as the computer takes care of everything for you.
Winning games and obtaining high ranks. A lot of people would do anything for those.
But it is impossible to compete with that higher rank if you don't have skill to back it up....I agree with FaiL_SaFe. I really don't see why people do this.
... That is why they hack, they are not skilled so they substitute skill with hacks...
Perhaps I was unclear: There are 2 basic reasons to play sc2, money and entertainment. Sure those are pure extremes but bare with me. If this person was playing for entertainment, well I don't see how the games are fun if you just have a bot win it for you. If you were playing for money, then the large production values involved in tournys like, say, the NASL, would catch you one way or another. Just look at the number of spectators, even in this thread alone. It would be impossible to bot your way to a legitimate career.
TL.net is a great place to lurk and use the search feature.. I use the search feature a lot...But I would never ever post on a forum run by a bunch of crappy moderators. Most of them moderating TL.net are just too up themselves for their own good. A bit like gamefaqs.While a posh girl who thinks she is too great might keep looking into a mirror.TL.net moderators go around thinking about how their bans really mean something.
He doesn't need to look thru the fog of war he can just look at the minimap. You could easily prove it was a hack because he has all the roaches selected despite borrowing/unborrowing 1 at a time.
On April 07 2011 08:28 FaiL_SaFe wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't get why anyone would want all these hacks? (I mean obviously in my opinion it takes a special kind of asshole to cheat or hack in general).
It seems like all of this stuff takes all human functions out of the game. Why bother to play when all you are going to do is watch as the computer takes care of everything for you.
Winning games and obtaining high ranks. A lot of people would do anything for those.
But it is impossible to compete with that higher rank if you don't have skill to back it up....I agree with FaiL_SaFe. I really don't see why people do this.
... That is why they hack, they are not skilled so they substitute skill with hacks...
Perhaps I was unclear: There are 2 basic reasons to play sc2, money and entertainment. Sure those are pure extremes but bare with me. If this person was playing for entertainment, well I don't see how the games are fun if you just have a bot win it for you. If you were playing for money, then the large production values involved in tournys like, say, the NASL, would catch you one way or another. Just look at the number of spectators, even in this thread alone. It would be impossible to bot your way to a legitimate career.
Your definition of "entertainment" does not necessarily apply to everyone else. Some people find just winning a bunch of games fun even if they cheated to achieve it. Some people really like ranking high on the ladder and bragging to their friends about it.
Of course, some people take pleasure in just ruining other people's day by cheating.
On April 07 2011 07:44 Roggay wrote: It is humanly impossible to micro correctly with 500+ apm, because you will actually hurt yourself more than anything, the fact that he did well in the fight is enough to prove that he was a cheater.
yes you're right, july was never clocked at 900 apm while playing broodwar. you sir are right. And i mean, all the people you see with 350 constant apm in sc2 don't really have 350 x 4 = 1400/3 = 470ish REAL apm.
lol are you trolling or so oblivious and ignorant its not even funny?
Regardless, you could never use 600 APM just to burrow roaches.
Has anyone stopped to think that maybe the Zerg are starting to gain independence? Maybe the creatures are being tired of being enslaved by the flying cursor and have begun acting independently to dominate the ladder.
On April 07 2011 10:44 sureshot_ wrote: No doubt: hacking. The injects were very weird as well. For the first half of them he manually selected each queen and injected on time, but later in the game his camera wouldn't pan to each base, yet the queens would continue to inject.
Im not saying you're wrong that he wasnt hacking.
But I will say you can inject larvae while not looking at your base via V clicking hatcheries on the minimap.
um if he really had like 700 apm i suppose for the burrowing he could be using the wireframes and going like
1, click on wire frame, R, 1 possibly fast enough to not be recorded or whatever...idk....what's most telling to me is that he starts making a drone at exactly 0:00...you need to be pretty fast for that...but uh, idk i think this is actually pretty interesting as it's made me at least consider what other possible micro mechanics I can implement in my own games to be more efficient
On April 07 2011 10:44 sureshot_ wrote: No doubt: hacking. The injects were very weird as well. For the first half of them he manually selected each queen and injected on time, but later in the game his camera wouldn't pan to each base, yet the queens would continue to inject.
Im not saying you're wrong that he wasnt hacking.
But I will say you can inject larvae while not looking at your base via V clicking hatcheries on the minimap.
True. Can you also explain how he does it without actually selecting the queens at all?
it's not even a question of "whether or not it is a hack"..you dont need to look at the context or the rest of the game, he could have 300 apm all game and that "micro" is actually impossible to do. every single time a roach got to a certain low hp it burrowed and moved away, every single time a burrowed roach got to a nice green hp it unburrowed, and at several points in that long fight it's clear it's actually impossible given the other commands he was doing, such as right clicking away from that area to move other roaches.
may or may not be related: from what I heard, ever since season 2 came up, previously banned users are able to login and play.
The guy has 700 APM because he held down the burrow key with a very high repeat. Kinda like when zerg hold the hotkey to make lings and this peaks their APM at the repeat delay.
TL.net is a great place to lurk and use the search feature.. I use the search feature a lot...But I would never ever post on a forum run by a bunch of crappy moderators. Most of them moderating TL.net are just too up themselves for their own good. A bit like gamefaqs.While a posh girl who thinks she is too great might keep looking into a mirror.TL.net moderators go around thinking about how their bans really mean something.
Its 100% a hack. If you look closely, Every Single Roach pops back up once it regens health back up to 137. Without fail, if you watch closely on Normal speed, and repeatedly click the play/pause menu, you can see roaches move around underground, and Right as they get back up to 137 health, they pop back up. No human would be that observant of each of his roaches health to the point where he can unborrow them at the perfect times.
I honestly use macros since sc1(add w3 to the mix). I like the part where I outsmart my opponent and I just can't play for ten hours straight anymore (I've got some responsabilities) but this is over the top lol.
The 3 evo move before he sees banelings indicates definitely a map hack. But his drone control indicates that was a manual move.
The fact that during the roach fight he has ALL ROACHES SELECTED and manages to burrow just 1 in orange health and move it forward at the same time is absolutely impossible. It seems like has has to have the units selected for the program to micro it.
Blizzard always find the hackers eventually. Instead of banning them, they should write a program so for a player using bots, 45 sec into the game 1000 Bannelings spawn and roll into their base.
Its kind of sad blizzard can't even control these public hacks, where they are free to download it and see exactly how it works. Makes you wonder how many private hackers go unnoticed.
that micro was PRETTY cool, and definitely a bot. That accounts days are numbered
I think that there should be competitions where coders are challenged to make bot programs that play SC2 against other people's bot programs. It'd be a really interesting challenge, definitely. Could you program an AI to know a build order so well that it is never supply blocked, but never has more than 8 excess supply? Yes, you can program a bot to automatically burrow a roach when it has less than 20 health, but can you program it to "think"?
On April 07 2011 13:09 Jonas wrote: that micro was PRETTY cool, and definitely a bot. That accounts days are numbered
I think that there should be competitions where coders are challenged to make bot programs that play SC2 against other people's bot programs. It'd be a really interesting challenge, definitely. Could you program an AI to know a build order so well that it is never supply blocked, but never has more than 8 excess supply? Yes, you can program a bot to automatically burrow a roach when it has less than 20 health, but can you program it to "think"?
That would actually be very cool, as long as you mean a program that doesn't "cheat" (get any knowledge or ingame advantages that humans don't) I imagine making a good high-level AI is very hard, I mean Blizzard couldn't (ok was too lazy/pressed for time to) make an insane AI without it cheating by getting extra minerals and gas. With this we could get a legitimate insane AI and start a sort of Deep Blue Vs. Kasparov thing going, see if anyone can make an AI that can play with the pros.
Personally I think that it would be almost impossible to get a pro level AI, they would obviously have massive micro advantages (doing things like the hacker in OP but for every battle with every unit) but I don't think computers are ready to create or adapt strategies on the fly at a high enough level to beat pros, just look at chess which as almost infinitely fewer possible choices in a game than Starcraft and it still took a very long time for computers to reach human level of play.
I've done some thinking about whether an ai could compete with pros, and I think maybe it could with some abusing. Imagine if the ai goes blink stalkers. With perfect micro. Never takes health damage. I don't know, it seems like there is some possibility they could compete.
On April 07 2011 13:09 Jonas wrote: that micro was PRETTY cool, and definitely a bot. That accounts days are numbered
I think that there should be competitions where coders are challenged to make bot programs that play SC2 against other people's bot programs. It'd be a really interesting challenge, definitely. Could you program an AI to know a build order so well that it is never supply blocked, but never has more than 8 excess supply? Yes, you can program a bot to automatically burrow a roach when it has less than 20 health, but can you program it to "think"?
That would actually be very cool, as long as you mean a program that doesn't "cheat" (get any knowledge or ingame advantages that humans don't) I imagine making a good high-level AI is very hard, I mean Blizzard couldn't (ok was too lazy/pressed for time to) make an insane AI without it cheating by getting extra minerals and gas. With this we could get a legitimate insane AI and start a sort of Deep Blue Vs. Kasparov thing going, see if anyone can make an AI that can play with the pros.
Personally I think that it would be almost impossible to get a pro level AI, they would obviously have massive micro advantages (doing things like the hacker in OP but for every battle with every unit) but I don't think computers are ready to create or adapt strategies on the fly at a high enough level to beat pros, just look at chess which as almost infinitely fewer possible choices in a game than Starcraft and it still took a very long time for computers to reach human level of play.
Maybe because theres no one actually dedicated and paid to do such a thing? People have jobs. They cant work on it full time even if they wanted. Which so far i dont think anyone cares about making a AI to play starcraft when they wanna play themselves.
That was really crazy, its like he suddenly shifted gears into flawless macro and micro with 500+ APM steady no problem, with him being diamond is even more suspicious.
Just watching the end he was microing perfectly, literally perfect injects at the same time without his camera moving back etc.. pretty obvious something is foul play, im not sure what program could do all that honestly.
On April 07 2011 13:09 Jonas wrote: that micro was PRETTY cool, and definitely a bot. That accounts days are numbered
I think that there should be competitions where coders are challenged to make bot programs that play SC2 against other people's bot programs. It'd be a really interesting challenge, definitely. Could you program an AI to know a build order so well that it is never supply blocked, but never has more than 8 excess supply? Yes, you can program a bot to automatically burrow a roach when it has less than 20 health, but can you program it to "think"?
That would actually be very cool, as long as you mean a program that doesn't "cheat" (get any knowledge or ingame advantages that humans don't) I imagine making a good high-level AI is very hard, I mean Blizzard couldn't (ok was too lazy/pressed for time to) make an insane AI without it cheating by getting extra minerals and gas. With this we could get a legitimate insane AI and start a sort of Deep Blue Vs. Kasparov thing going, see if anyone can make an AI that can play with the pros.
Personally I think that it would be almost impossible to get a pro level AI, they would obviously have massive micro advantages (doing things like the hacker in OP but for every battle with every unit) but I don't think computers are ready to create or adapt strategies on the fly at a high enough level to beat pros, just look at chess which as almost infinitely fewer possible choices in a game than Starcraft and it still took a very long time for computers to reach human level of play.
Maybe because theres no one actually dedicated and paid to do such a thing? People have jobs. They cant work on it full time even if they wanted. Which so far i dont think anyone cares about making a AI to play starcraft when they wanna play themselves.
Clearly you guys have never ventured in the the BW forums. There is an annual SC:BW AI competition where teams (from universities all over USA) create bots to play SC:BW at a pretty high level. The winner of last year's competition was a Zerg AI created by the UC Berkeley team called the Overmind. It was so complex that it had the ability to learn to dodge storms. The Overmind had pretty basic learning capabilities. I'd recommend you to search it up and watch some of the videos. They're pretty darn impressive.
This is really scary imo. It disgusts me that people can actually cheat to such an extent. I hope blizzard finds some way to make this type of thing impossible.
Indeed it's hacking, all his injections are PERFECT, as he injects without even needing to select the queen (so it's not even minimap injection). Also, the roaches burrow individually without even them being selected individually.
Map hacks - Yeah most likely, he did suspicious things but he actually didn't look into the fog of war too much. Maybe two or three times in really weird spots. Then again the hack may somehow alter the camera of the POV in replays. I noticed that once he attacked he never ever looked back at his base to inject or anything. Then again he may have auto inject or something, that just dawned on me.
Burrow hack - Definitely. It is so clear that the burrow/unburrow micro is autonomous its not even funny. The all burrow the second they are in red health and they all unburrow the second they reach max health (or he unburrows them himself).
On April 07 2011 14:45 mikell wrote: isn't warden supposed to detect all dll injections? this kind of shit makes me wonder how legitimate some high ranked players are.
The way Blizzard goes about their hack prevention is they "flag" accounts that are detected, and after a certain period of time they ban all flagged accounts. So yes, this guy is playing and hacking right now, but as long as the hack is detectable (I'm sure it is) he will be banned during the next ban wave. The reason for this is they can catch more people at once because hack makers have no way of telling if their hack is detectable or not until a ban wave hits and all the users of the hack are banned anyway.
On April 07 2011 13:09 Jonas wrote: that micro was PRETTY cool, and definitely a bot. That accounts days are numbered
I think that there should be competitions where coders are challenged to make bot programs that play SC2 against other people's bot programs. It'd be a really interesting challenge, definitely. Could you program an AI to know a build order so well that it is never supply blocked, but never has more than 8 excess supply? Yes, you can program a bot to automatically burrow a roach when it has less than 20 health, but can you program it to "think"?
That would actually be very cool, as long as you mean a program that doesn't "cheat" (get any knowledge or ingame advantages that humans don't) I imagine making a good high-level AI is very hard, I mean Blizzard couldn't (ok was too lazy/pressed for time to) make an insane AI without it cheating by getting extra minerals and gas. With this we could get a legitimate insane AI and start a sort of Deep Blue Vs. Kasparov thing going, see if anyone can make an AI that can play with the pros.
Personally I think that it would be almost impossible to get a pro level AI, they would obviously have massive micro advantages (doing things like the hacker in OP but for every battle with every unit) but I don't think computers are ready to create or adapt strategies on the fly at a high enough level to beat pros, just look at chess which as almost infinitely fewer possible choices in a game than Starcraft and it still took a very long time for computers to reach human level of play.
Maybe because theres no one actually dedicated and paid to do such a thing? People have jobs. They cant work on it full time even if they wanted. Which so far i dont think anyone cares about making a AI to play starcraft when they wanna play themselves.
Clearly you guys have never ventured in the the BW forums. There is an annual SC:BW AI competition where teams (from universities all over USA) create bots to play SC:BW at a pretty high level. The winner of last year's competition was a Zerg AI created by the UC Berkeley team called the Overmind. It was so complex that it had the ability to learn to dodge storms. The Overmind had pretty basic learning capabilities. I'd recommend you to search it up and watch some of the videos. They're pretty darn impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcjQhig88wE bot wraith micro against hydras
Please read properly before you respond. He is talking about a fully functional bot not programmed for ONE situation like your talking about but one that knows every single situation and can account for it to the level of a world class player. And able to beat players at the top of the world rankings.
On April 07 2011 08:38 floor exercise wrote: Here's what the zerg overlay looks like:
You decide what it makes and whether to inject and make overlords as well
Well. I am not laddering until there's a patch or a post from Blizzard addressing this. Totally shocked something like this could be created, but I'm sure they'll respond quickly.
Its been this way for years with blizzard games. Free undetectable hacks for a lot of their games that remain that way despite consistent updates to warden. That is what sort of sets the limits to competition to non-lan events
Agree, a macro hack such as auto-inject auto mule auto build supplies. Is really easy to get and quite common. Just google it its not hard.. The burrow one I havent seen before but I mean use your brain its obviously a hack. People who use this shit really are lame. Best thing to do is just ignore them and wait for blizz to upgrade warden and mass ban, seems to me to be just a matter of time.
On April 07 2011 08:38 floor exercise wrote: Here's what the zerg overlay looks like:
You decide what it makes and whether to inject and make overlords as well
Well. I am not laddering until there's a patch or a post from Blizzard addressing this. Totally shocked something like this could be created, but I'm sure they'll respond quickly.
Its been this way for years with blizzard games. Free undetectable hacks for a lot of their games that remain that way despite consistent updates to warden. That is what sort of sets the limits to competition to non-lan events
Didn't seem to be that way in wow. They cracked down hard on that shit almost immediately.
On April 07 2011 13:09 Jonas wrote: that micro was PRETTY cool, and definitely a bot. That accounts days are numbered
I think that there should be competitions where coders are challenged to make bot programs that play SC2 against other people's bot programs. It'd be a really interesting challenge, definitely. Could you program an AI to know a build order so well that it is never supply blocked, but never has more than 8 excess supply? Yes, you can program a bot to automatically burrow a roach when it has less than 20 health, but can you program it to "think"?
That would actually be very cool, as long as you mean a program that doesn't "cheat" (get any knowledge or ingame advantages that humans don't) I imagine making a good high-level AI is very hard, I mean Blizzard couldn't (ok was too lazy/pressed for time to) make an insane AI without it cheating by getting extra minerals and gas. With this we could get a legitimate insane AI and start a sort of Deep Blue Vs. Kasparov thing going, see if anyone can make an AI that can play with the pros.
Personally I think that it would be almost impossible to get a pro level AI, they would obviously have massive micro advantages (doing things like the hacker in OP but for every battle with every unit) but I don't think computers are ready to create or adapt strategies on the fly at a high enough level to beat pros, just look at chess which as almost infinitely fewer possible choices in a game than Starcraft and it still took a very long time for computers to reach human level of play.
Maybe because theres no one actually dedicated and paid to do such a thing? People have jobs. They cant work on it full time even if they wanted. Which so far i dont think anyone cares about making a AI to play starcraft when they wanna play themselves.
Clearly you guys have never ventured in the the BW forums. There is an annual SC:BW AI competition where teams (from universities all over USA) create bots to play SC:BW at a pretty high level. The winner of last year's competition was a Zerg AI created by the UC Berkeley team called the Overmind. It was so complex that it had the ability to learn to dodge storms. The Overmind had pretty basic learning capabilities. I'd recommend you to search it up and watch some of the videos. They're pretty darn impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcjQhig88wE bot wraith micro against hydras
Please read properly before you respond. He is talking about a fully functional bot not programmed for ONE situation like your talking about but one that knows every single situation and can account for it to the level of a world class player. And able to beat players at the top of the world rankings.
I suggest you take your own advice. He IS talking about a fully functional bot.
On April 07 2011 08:38 floor exercise wrote: Here's what the zerg overlay looks like:
You decide what it makes and whether to inject and make overlords as well
Well. I am not laddering until there's a patch or a post from Blizzard addressing this. Totally shocked something like this could be created, but I'm sure they'll respond quickly.
Its been this way for years with blizzard games. Free undetectable hacks for a lot of their games that remain that way despite consistent updates to warden. That is what sort of sets the limits to competition to non-lan events
Didn't seem to be that way in wow. They cracked down hard on that shit almost immediately.
Not really, only 2 banwaves in last 3-4 years worth noting.
Blizzard's method is to ban thousands at a time. Sadly it also means people like this get to run rampant for months at a time before getting shut down. Really with auto-inject, autosupply, maphack and near perfect micro, ANY somewhat average plat player can make top200 with ease.
On April 07 2011 13:09 Jonas wrote: that micro was PRETTY cool, and definitely a bot. That accounts days are numbered
I think that there should be competitions where coders are challenged to make bot programs that play SC2 against other people's bot programs. It'd be a really interesting challenge, definitely. Could you program an AI to know a build order so well that it is never supply blocked, but never has more than 8 excess supply? Yes, you can program a bot to automatically burrow a roach when it has less than 20 health, but can you program it to "think"?
That would actually be very cool, as long as you mean a program that doesn't "cheat" (get any knowledge or ingame advantages that humans don't) I imagine making a good high-level AI is very hard, I mean Blizzard couldn't (ok was too lazy/pressed for time to) make an insane AI without it cheating by getting extra minerals and gas. With this we could get a legitimate insane AI and start a sort of Deep Blue Vs. Kasparov thing going, see if anyone can make an AI that can play with the pros.
Personally I think that it would be almost impossible to get a pro level AI, they would obviously have massive micro advantages (doing things like the hacker in OP but for every battle with every unit) but I don't think computers are ready to create or adapt strategies on the fly at a high enough level to beat pros, just look at chess which as almost infinitely fewer possible choices in a game than Starcraft and it still took a very long time for computers to reach human level of play.
Maybe because theres no one actually dedicated and paid to do such a thing? People have jobs. They cant work on it full time even if they wanted. Which so far i dont think anyone cares about making a AI to play starcraft when they wanna play themselves.
Clearly you guys have never ventured in the the BW forums. There is an annual SC:BW AI competition where teams (from universities all over USA) create bots to play SC:BW at a pretty high level. The winner of last year's competition was a Zerg AI created by the UC Berkeley team called the Overmind. It was so complex that it had the ability to learn to dodge storms. The Overmind had pretty basic learning capabilities. I'd recommend you to search it up and watch some of the videos. They're pretty darn impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcjQhig88wE bot wraith micro against hydras
Please read properly before you respond. He is talking about a fully functional bot not programmed for ONE situation like your talking about but one that knows every single situation and can account for it to the level of a world class player. And able to beat players at the top of the world rankings.
I suggest you take your own advice. He IS talking about a fully functional bot.
The video was of unit micro in a static enviroment. The other guy gave the example of deep blue. Have these "amazing" bots beat any of the best players in the world in bw?
Definately hacking, there is obviously a hack being used with the inject larvae, map hacks and burrowing. Look at it, hes burrowing and moving around in such weird patterns, he's moving around with an overseer right over them, not to mention they all burrow at like exactly 45 hp and then automatically get moved to the back then unburrowed at full hp. Blatant hacking, please ban this guy, get him off our game.
We work hard for our wins (sometimes ), the next thing we'll see is bot.vs.bot league tournament games. Actually, that would be just ridiculously sick to watch -.-.
On April 07 2011 07:38 majestouch wrote: first off this is the wrong forum for hacking posts (there is a thread for it search "tl hacker database" i'm too lazy to link you to it) 2nd, why were you playing 1v1 on gutterhulk-- a 2v2 map? 3rd, did you register an account to just make this post?
lastly, since you got 3 strikes from me I'm simply not going to look at the replay, however, that is odd he went from 40apm to 700, however, quite hillarious nonetheless.
first off, if you're not gonna link dont be rude about it 2nd, maybe it was a custom game, who cares? not relevant 3rd, WTF does that have to do with anything?
lastly, don't post if you're not gonna contribute to a thread, especially if you're post is a monumental troll post.
OT: i think there's no real doubt that the dude was hacking, IMO
Yeah, it's sad that someone would use a map hack for just a game... and there's no way hackers should be allowed to play on ladder. It's gotta be really frustrating for a player who get's destroyed in a game, only to find out later that he was cheating...
But on the other hand, the hack is pretty nifty and cool to watch. I didn't know such complicated bots existed. And I agree, a bot v bot tourney would be sick, haha.
Just watched replay. It's obviously a multi hacker, but I'd never seen that before... At least it shows that skill can help in SC2 (regarding fights management) :p
Arose my curiosity, googled, got on a hack site, just read : «These hacks can give you a huge advantage in multiplayer, and propel you to the Platinum league, or even into cash tournaments.»
It's really sad to see that that kind of speech work... It will PROPEL YOU TO THE PLATINUM LEAGUE.
I mean most people make maphacks and replay tab hacks and the like, but I think hacks like these are more creative and take a bit more thinking than your standard hacks. You know what, there should be custom maps made with auto micro implemented. Also maps where the whole map is revealed.
It's definitely not going to replace ladder, but I think it'd be interesting to see how people play with certain constraints removed.
Just to give some context: the selection of the Queen happens in the same frame as the inject. That's impossibly fast. To add insult to injury, he then selects the Hatchery or other objects in the same frame. That's 1/16th of a (game) second...
On April 07 2011 14:45 mikell wrote: isn't warden supposed to detect all dll injections? this kind of shit makes me wonder how legitimate some high ranked players are.
Thing is. Antivirus programs, streaming programs.. In fact, tons of programs does dllinjections. Its not a difficult task to find dll injects for warden. However if they would ban everyone that does dll injections 100% of the players would be banned.
So what they do is they scan for flagged programs, that warden know is a hack. This, in turn, makes private hacks completley safe against warden. So as long as you have written it yourself and haven't shared with anyone there is no way for warden to actually know that you are cheating, unless you change the sourcecode of a scanned area. And it cant scan the entire sourcecode since that would slow down the game too much. (this would for example be the code that checks if an addon is a blizzard addon or userbuilt addon in wow, thus making it quite much trickier to access the blizzard protected APIs like cast spell by name)
This is how warden works in wow and I would assume its the same for sc2.
There's macro bots out there that warden haven't detected... people use to to inject flawlessly and do roach burrow perfectly like in the replay. All we can hope for is that Blizzard bans these people since new hacks are always getting released =\
imo its obvious that the burrowing roaches and the queen injects are a hack. if u look he never selects them(the roaches burrow without being selected, queen never is selected while injecting) in the replay, his screen never looks at his queen or hatch while injecting. if blizzard sees this replay they should ban his account. maybe the 60 dollars will make him reconcider hacking.
Does Blizzard ban if a hack is obvious on a replay or is it like Valve ( counter-strike etc) and only ban if they get caught by their anti cheat program.
On April 07 2011 18:58 killamane wrote: imo its obvious that the burrowing roaches and the queen injects are a hack. if u look he never selects them(the roaches burrow without being selected, queen never is selected while injecting) in the replay, his screen never looks at his queen or hatch while injecting. if blizzard sees this replay they should ban his account. maybe the 60 dollars will make him reconcider hacking.
It's possible to give the inject command via the minimap if they took control of the queen ( which he might've done so )
On April 07 2011 18:58 killamane wrote: imo its obvious that the burrowing roaches and the queen injects are a hack. if u look he never selects them(the roaches burrow without being selected, queen never is selected while injecting) in the replay, his screen never looks at his queen or hatch while injecting. if blizzard sees this replay they should ban his account. maybe the 60 dollars will make him reconcider hacking.
It's possible to give the inject command via the minimap if they took control of the queen ( which he might've done so )
Wtf, up to about 950APM (~=15 actions per second) at 13. minute mark?! Edit: I searched for "Samyaza" on sc2ranks.com. It seems this guy ladders both on NA and SEA server. According to battle.net he has achieved a 19/2 win-to-loss-ratio on SEA and 17/8 on NA recently (since about April 4/3) while laddering. Since April 5. he has lost altogether only three times.
I took a look at the actual program to see how it works. It's really interesting, it even obfuscates its processes/names to protect itself from Blizz just banning based on program flags.
The program in no way interacts with the SC2.exe, and there are ZERO .dll injections or any other kind of code interference. All it does is just read SC2.exe memory and display it in a overlay. I'm really suprised Blizzard didn't do anything to make it harder for programs to simply read off game data like this. Seems like lazy coding on their part.
Honestly there is no way Warden will be able to detect this hack without Blizz breaking privacy laws. The only way Blizz can possibly prevent this is to change the way the SC2.exe stores game information in its memory.
On April 07 2011 18:58 killamane wrote: imo its obvious that the burrowing roaches and the queen injects are a hack. if u look he never selects them(the roaches burrow without being selected, queen never is selected while injecting) in the replay, his screen never looks at his queen or hatch while injecting. if blizzard sees this replay they should ban his account. maybe the 60 dollars will make him reconcider hacking.
It's possible to give the inject command via the minimap if they took control of the queen ( which he might've done so )
But he never selected a Queen to do so.
I'm really not sure if you can completely override the UI and enter commands by other means. My bet is that the selection window simply cannot process 600apm so you only get to see a fraction of what he's actually doing.
On April 07 2011 18:58 killamane wrote: imo its obvious that the burrowing roaches and the queen injects are a hack. if u look he never selects them(the roaches burrow without being selected, queen never is selected while injecting) in the replay, his screen never looks at his queen or hatch while injecting. if blizzard sees this replay they should ban his account. maybe the 60 dollars will make him reconcider hacking.
It's possible to give the inject command via the minimap if they took control of the queen ( which he might've done so )
But he never selected a Queen to do so.
I'm really not sure if you can completely override the UI and enter commands by other means. My bet is that the selection window simply cannot process 600apm so you only get to see a fraction of what he's actually doing.
They either used direct input. (like BWAPI for BW which gave direct control of every single unit every frame at once). Or used a graphics pipeline with some kind of automated mouse control. By the sophistication, speed and multitasking it appears there's something like BW:API floating arround for SC2.
it is quite sad and what is worse is if it is just scanning the graphics pipeline or the sc2 memory image, then there is no detection possible, detection would be allowing blizzard to inspect your whole computer and anyway could be easily circumvented by an updated hack faster than blizzard could roll out new versions of sc2.exe
Even the giveaway - perfect burrow micro, very high APM, could be suppressed with options if it ever became a tell and a problem for the player. The bot could just pad out your APM to whatever you want. Eg, you select "give me 200 APM". It could also do imperfect borrow micro, imperfect enough to be plausible but way better than the natural skill of the player.
Prediction: the hacks will be several steps ahead of blizzard and will also be increasingly hard to detect even when looking at a replay file other than a vague suspicion that a person playing that well should be in tournaments.
Pretty sad, really but was there a single popular PC multiplayer game that completely resisted cheats?
Looks like a network injection program. i wrote something similar for Lineage 2 a long time ago and it is a lot easier to design and a lot more versatile than input based bots. The only real difficulty is getting the protocol and decrypting the packets, something that can be done easily enough. And in SC2 it will be even easier because the server actually sends global information to the client, so you don't even have to guess anything.
Its a lot harder to detect also by warden because the bot doesn't have to live on the same machine, it can be on a different network altogether.
On April 07 2011 22:05 nyc863 wrote: it is quite sad and what is worse is if it is just scanning the graphics pipeline or the sc2 memory image, then there is no detection possible, detection would be allowing blizzard to inspect your whole computer and anyway could be easily circumvented by an updated hack faster than blizzard could roll out new versions of sc2.exe
Even the giveaway - perfect burrow micro, very high APM, could be suppressed with options if it ever became a tell and a problem for the player. The bot could just pad out your APM to whatever you want. Eg, you select "give me 200 APM". It could also do imperfect borrow micro, imperfect enough to be plausible but way better than the natural skill of the player.
Prediction: the hacks will be several steps ahead of blizzard and will also be increasingly hard to detect even when looking at a replay file other than a vague suspicion that a person playing that well should be in tournaments.
Pretty sad, really but was there a single popular PC multiplayer game that completely resisted cheats?
AFAIK, Guild Wars had bots, but nothing outside of that, but the game, due to the way it works, wouldn't provide any advantages for faster inputs or whatever, and you can't trick the game into teleporting you like you can in Counter Strike, since player locations/stats/etc. are all calculated server side, and sent to the client.
It sucks, but you're right, there's probably never going to be a way to fix this, especially if the people doing it are privately writing their own programs.
No really, of course he selects the queen, hatchery and roaches. The bot just does it so fast that it doesn't get rendered. The game isn't 1<->1 relation between engine and graphics. The engine moves a lot faster than it can draw so the replay will never show those actions (when the bot takes over the APM is probably in the thousands - 3k+ - for a couple of actions).
On April 07 2011 18:58 killamane wrote: imo its obvious that the burrowing roaches and the queen injects are a hack. if u look he never selects them(the roaches burrow without being selected, queen never is selected while injecting) in the replay, his screen never looks at his queen or hatch while injecting. if blizzard sees this replay they should ban his account. maybe the 60 dollars will make him reconcider hacking.
It's possible to give the inject command via the minimap if they took control of the queen ( which he might've done so )
But he never selected a Queen to do so.
This has been addressed. He did select the queen, but injected and then selected something else within the same frame, so you won't ever see the queen highlighted.
Your WTF said it all for me. Having played at the top of the ladder i can say i have never seen anything come close to that macroing whilst borrowing roaches with them not selected i smell foul play. Is this the guy http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2602385/1/Samyaza/
If it is read hes post history on the bnet forum exspecially the one bad mouthing Tl and its moderator
Those who is wondering if some pros might do it, I think some might be and is using/tried it. But most of them who is competing on a LAN or so can't possibly do this, I mean like MLG for a instance or GSL. I don't think they would be able to get away with such things unnoticed. So maybe for the guys playing offline tournaments all the time this could work - if they are very careful and not like this guy.
It upsets me to see stuff like this. During Brood war, there were pros caught hacking in a tournament. Its bound to happen again in SC2. I am pretty sure hackers are always one step ahead. Blizzard has to be 5 steps ahead of them then. But it seems banning in waves don't do much. We should make a thread about hacking in general, so we can get their attention.
On April 07 2011 23:04 redviper wrote: Looks like a network injection program. i wrote something similar for Lineage 2 a long time ago and it is a lot easier to design and a lot more versatile than input based bots. The only real difficulty is getting the protocol and decrypting the packets, something that can be done easily enough. And in SC2 it will be even easier because the server actually sends global information to the client, so you don't even have to guess anything.
Its a lot harder to detect also by warden because the bot doesn't have to live on the same machine, it can be on a different network altogether.
Yes, a lot of popular hacks also for Diablo 2 were based on network injection, so it wouldn't surprise me if this was the same. I guess what makes these hacks difficult is that first the SC2 client has to be reverse engineered (to a certain extent) in order to understand the packets sent between server/client. I'm pretty sure if Blizzard used an encryption algorithm to protect the packets sent between client and server, that would make network injections much harder to write; at least that's what the solution is in general for client-server applications.
On April 07 2011 23:04 redviper wrote: Looks like a network injection program. i wrote something similar for Lineage 2 a long time ago and it is a lot easier to design and a lot more versatile than input based bots. The only real difficulty is getting the protocol and decrypting the packets, something that can be done easily enough. And in SC2 it will be even easier because the server actually sends global information to the client, so you don't even have to guess anything.
Its a lot harder to detect also by warden because the bot doesn't have to live on the same machine, it can be on a different network altogether.
Yes, a lot of popular hacks also for Diablo 2 were based on network injection, so it wouldn't surprise me if this was the same. I guess what makes these hacks difficult is that first the SC2 client has to be reverse engineered (to a certain extent) in order to understand the packets sent between server/client. I'm pretty sure if Blizzard used an encryption algorithm to protect the packets sent between client and server, that would make network injections much harder to write; at least that's what the solution is in general for client-server applications.
Yeah its pretty interesting what you can find out with a archive manager and a decompiler. Reverse engineering software has been around for ever, but when you get to the nuts and bolts, all software is just files executed on your computer, this machine code can be easily converted back to source(albeit semi-readable) and encryptions can be broken given enough time/power. The tools are out there to do it... It just makes me sad that people do. Whats the fun in having the computer play for you? So you can flex your e-peen to all your friends?
He clearly has an bot program for the roach micro look att 17:57~15:58 he burrow a single roach while having all his roaches in one hotkey, simply not possible.
Btw, on another note why build more than 5 banelings when going for a banelings bust? Get ling speed and start massings lings instead of those extra banes they were not helping, not only is you opponent going to be prepared next time you attack. You are setting yourself in an all-in:ish situation. If you go for bane bust in zvz, the banes are there to kill his economy(drones) while you flood with lings to prevent him for building up drones again. This is not an early game pressure type of build, so following it up with an expansion is weird. And this is the main cause for your loss, is the fact that the game is 21 minutes long, and you let him catch up to you the time he moves out he had more workers and even amount of roaches. Of course he hade perfect injects however that is something other player could have without hacking aswell. That purely rely on your opponents to remember the injection rather than actual apm. That he hacks is just an iceing on the cake, if you done the build correctly you would had won right then and there. Besides just listen to his response to your banelings bust,3evo and 3 spines, sound like a real low-class player, and he could not withstand a ling follow up.
This guy actually has an SC2 replayed account and has upped a couple of reps. The ones he loaded (early march) are indicative of your average diamond zerg, his camera is panning all over his base like a normal person would. Not just the hovering over his main hatch during the replay the OP posted.
What's funny is that HE has one he uploaded call "hacker" so I imagine this is just another frustrated zerg who decided to go the dark route of hacking.
At first I thought maybe "oh, it's zvz, maybe this is something they do since it usually starts banelings. Later on, regardless of the roach micro and the 700+ apm, he sneaks a few looks through the fog at your army before he leaves, your rocks by your 3rd to see if they are broken down or you expanded, and the outer rocks of his 3rd without looking actually scouting.
Replays like this always make me wonder how many hackers I have played/lost/beat
Did anyone check this thing out? Maybe the guy was using some bot like the one used here.
Well did you check this out? That topic is about something created with the SC2 editor. It is an AI in a custom map, it is not a third party program and has nothing to do with hacking.
Did anyone check this thing out? Maybe the guy was using some bot like the one used here.
Well did you check this out? That topic is about something created with the SC2 editor. It is an AI in a custom map, it is not a third party program and has nothing to do with hacking.
Ahh, sorry. I did check out both videos and read the beginning xO and since he said that they were micro bots, I started thinking something along the lines of a runescape bot. Sorry. Yeah, so no way that could be related to this replay.
On April 07 2011 13:09 Jonas wrote: that micro was PRETTY cool, and definitely a bot. That accounts days are numbered
I think that there should be competitions where coders are challenged to make bot programs that play SC2 against other people's bot programs. It'd be a really interesting challenge, definitely. Could you program an AI to know a build order so well that it is never supply blocked, but never has more than 8 excess supply? Yes, you can program a bot to automatically burrow a roach when it has less than 20 health, but can you program it to "think"?
That would actually be very cool, as long as you mean a program that doesn't "cheat" (get any knowledge or ingame advantages that humans don't) I imagine making a good high-level AI is very hard, I mean Blizzard couldn't (ok was too lazy/pressed for time to) make an insane AI without it cheating by getting extra minerals and gas. With this we could get a legitimate insane AI and start a sort of Deep Blue Vs. Kasparov thing going, see if anyone can make an AI that can play with the pros.
Personally I think that it would be almost impossible to get a pro level AI, they would obviously have massive micro advantages (doing things like the hacker in OP but for every battle with every unit) but I don't think computers are ready to create or adapt strategies on the fly at a high enough level to beat pros, just look at chess which as almost infinitely fewer possible choices in a game than Starcraft and it still took a very long time for computers to reach human level of play.
Maybe because theres no one actually dedicated and paid to do such a thing? People have jobs. They cant work on it full time even if they wanted. Which so far i dont think anyone cares about making a AI to play starcraft when they wanna play themselves.
Clearly you guys have never ventured in the the BW forums. There is an annual SC:BW AI competition where teams (from universities all over USA) create bots to play SC:BW at a pretty high level. The winner of last year's competition was a Zerg AI created by the UC Berkeley team called the Overmind. It was so complex that it had the ability to learn to dodge storms. The Overmind had pretty basic learning capabilities. I'd recommend you to search it up and watch some of the videos. They're pretty darn impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcjQhig88wE bot wraith micro against hydras
Please read properly before you respond. He is talking about a fully functional bot not programmed for ONE situation like your talking about but one that knows every single situation and can account for it to the level of a world class player. And able to beat players at the top of the world rankings.
I suggest you take your own advice. He IS talking about a fully functional bot.
The video was of unit micro in a static enviroment. The other guy gave the example of deep blue. Have these "amazing" bots beat any of the best players in the world in bw?
I suggest you click on the eis.ucsc.edu link I gave you. That contains videos of fully functional bots playing against one another. At that webpage, there is also another link to the winning bot (the Overmind) playing (and beating) a human player (Oriol) who had been to the 2009 WCG.
I didn't want to link too many videos but since some people just can't read I will + Show Spoiler +
I was watching this and drinking a soda and I almost dropped my soda on the floor when I saw him kill you with roaches against your roach, spine crawler, infestor composition with that burrow micro. He's APM during that was 700 and that burrow micro seemed un-human, I am thinking that he is indeed hacking but wow, good find. Very fishy.
Whats the fun in having the computer play for you? So you can flex your e-peen to all your friends?
Actually for L2 atleast, I found it atleast as much fun to write the bot than play the game myself. Figuring out the best ways for the AI to deal with situations is really interesting, and keeping up with the changes in protocol every 6 months was also quite fun.
And plus there is the money incentive. Imagine if you made the perfect bot, undetectable, flawless. You could sell thousands of copies and easily make a living wage for a couple of years.
How are people just ''thinking'' he is hacking, I would gladly like an explanation on how you burrow roaches without selecting them and how you inject with queens also without selecting them.
this cant be serious
theres nothing ''fishy'' to this, I mean seriously, what do people need more...are you only going to agree that hes hacking if he starts making battlecuirsers when hes playing protoss ? or is that also just fishy...
Wow watched the replay, this is quite similar to automine and other hacks that were prevalent in Broodwar. Except the programmer took it a dozen steps further and made auto inject auto burrow. Not going to lie it's quite an interesting bit of programming. If this is an isolated incident, banning the creator wont actually accomplish anything because if he's a programmer he will not have a problem buying multiple accounts for himself, If it's released online privately it again wont matter (low userbase) as he will use it to support a potential private cheat business. Both of these I feel will not have a large impact on players. However if this hack is already public, I feel it's going to hit SC2 hard like some of the other maphacks. I find the publicity some of these map hackers have gotten as of late are promoting this evolution of SC2 hacks. Really a shame. Really could use a replay flag system like bwchart had, but server sided on blizzards servers. I think blizzard could handle the bandwidth and computing requirements.
On April 08 2011 05:17 Phayze wrote: Wow watched the replay, this is quite similar to automine and other hacks that were prevalent in Broodwar. Except the programmer took it a dozen steps further and made auto inject. Not going to lie it's quite an interesting bit of programming. If this is an isolated incident, banning the creator wont actually accomplish anything because if he's a programmer he will not have a problem buying multiple accounts for himself, If it's released online privately it again wont matter (low userbase) as he will use it to support a potential private cheat business. Both of these I feel will not have a large impact on players. However if this hack is already public, I feel it's going to hit SC2 hard like some of the other maphacks. I find the publicity some of these map hackers have gotten as of late are promoting this evolution of SC2 hacks. Really a shame. Really could use a replay flag system like bwchart had, but server sided on blizzards servers. I think blizzard could handle the bandwidth and computing requirements.
Except every bronze league player who loses a game ever will instantly flag it causing a flood. Perhaps require an actual explanation of why you think the person is hacking...Don't get me wrong I want hackers out of the game, or at least confined to playing other hackers...but a simple flag system would probably just result in problems :/
Deffinetly hack no doubts, I must say he wasn't really good with hiding that. That burrow micro part, queen larvae inject and also building 3 evos to block his mineral lines before he even knew or saw you were going banelings pretty much speaks for itself.
I don't know about other people but in my opinion is very easy to spot, this one was crystal clear.
Oh wow, if you go into one of the replays Samyaza (the hacker) uploaded at the beginning of March, his caption is "A Zerg with self respect". A sad day for the swarm indeed.
On April 07 2011 23:55 Sensator wrote: Yeah after a long search (by long I mean googling SC2 hacks), I found exactly what these hacks are capable of. Check out the d3scene sc2 section :S.
Maybe I was naive but damn, didn't think you could hack RTS that in depth, and that quickly.
This guy has all his roaches selected, but they automatically burrow themselves individually if they fall below a certain health level. Not only that, they systematically unburrow themselves when they reach full HP (and not at any other level, even if it may have been more advantageous to have more attacking roaches). Notice that since he never unselects the roaches (to select individual ones), when he gives a focus fire command, even the burrowed roaches approach that target, but remain burrowed. Also notice that when the infested marines are shooting at the burrowed roaches, doing only pinpricks of damage, it keeps the roaches from reaching 100% hp, and they never automatically unburrow for him, even though he could wipe them out. Perhaps most glaringly of all, he selects his hatchery and very very slowly taps his roach hotkey, all the while you can see that his burrow/unburrow roach script is still running, and playing the game for him.
Even if he really was some gosu player who had ungodly micro, he makes relatively large mistakes that would only characterize players who play only in an a-click manner.
On April 08 2011 01:26 lowlypawn wrote: Can't download replay
Could someone please upload it again?
Got it to DL, sorry my cookies were disabled.
Just watched it and it's pretty amazing. I think this is just the start of what we can expect. Once the hackers have it figured out then they will add delays, randomness and a 250 APM cap to make it look legit. Then it will be really hard to detect.
Once the hackers have it figured out then they will add delays, randomness and a 250 APM cap to make it look legit. Then it will be really hard to detect.
QFT
Anyone capable of writing this current bot could trivially adjust it to add a realism slider and then the replay wouldn't show squat, it would just show a very good player in certain aspects of his macro and micro.
Even a second monitor or pop-up window showing the fully exposed unit placement would be undetectable, and a smart cheater would incorporate that information into his game without making it too obvious. He'd be a battle.net hero, but never compete in tourneys.
Not ganna matter to the top 200 ladder at all, he can never make it to top 200, game's not win with micro / macro at high level, it always comes down to decision making. People who has good decision making ability use hacks can push them over the top of the other legit players, however even without the hacks those players can already hold their own. There are a couple example of current big names of sc2 that was a once hacker turned legit and doing very well with hard work to redeem themselves.
i just wanted to address something that people are continually saying... he burrows roaches without selecting them individually, or injects larva while never selecting queens, etc etc...
someone on the first page mentioned this as a writeable program based on frames...
assuming this is true, the reason the replay doesnt show the selections is because of the hundreds and thousands of frames that fit into every second and minute... meaning the replay system shows no change in selection because of a possible write along the lines of '/checkframe(x) burrow all roach < 25% health'
to add a more childish analogy, the same way a magician does something so fast with his hands that the eye cant follow... the written program does something so fast that the replay system cant follow, or that it does perhaps follow it but in a single frame out of hundreds of thousands, thus technically executing the action, but too quickly to show the change in selection
im not saying this IS what is going on, but if it was a frame based written program this is a way of writing those kind of commands, although the ability for someone to sneak this into the SC2 registry files and past any sort of file checking performed by blizzard upon launch of the application is beyond my knowledge
i did not read the entire discussion, so i do not know if this has already been said
On April 07 2011 07:58 Alokiya wrote: What league was this in? If it was diamond/masters, it's not entirely impossible that you played someone who doesn't apm spam and is just really good at micro. Nothing in there was concrete that he was hacking, just insanely good micro really, but who knows, maybe there is some bot that auto burrows your low health roaches.
Why would you even post something like this? Watch the replay.
i have yet to hear of anyone getting banned for hacking.... GOOD JOB blizz. keep up the good work you fucking idiots. if they actually put forth any effort at all these people would be insanely easy to identify on bnet and could be banned litterally days after they started hacking.
as is though there is really nothing to deter these jerk offs and so the ladder is becoming increasingly pointless to play on. does anyone remember battlenet for Brood War???? you couldnt barely find anyone at all that didnt play with hacks on, and so noone would play on it cept noobs and hackers.
to all the people posting in the defense of the hacker, watch the replay befor you post.
i just played a guy who i think might have the same hack? he makes like 7 spines against my unscouted 4 gate, and his queen injects were ridiculous. he also had like 700 apm but that could be done by a macro script or whatever. too bad he still cant win the game with hacks loooool
On April 08 2011 12:21 akalarry wrote: i just played a guy who i think might have the same hack? he makes like 7 spines against my unscouted 4 gate, and his queen injects were ridiculous. he also had like 700 apm but that could be done by a macro script or whatever. too bad he still cant win the game with hacks loooool
Haven't read all replies but notice his queens are out of sync. Yet he doesnt miss a single inject the whole game (always at 25 or 26 energy as i seen) even during that insane micro.
Obviously a hacker if his apm was 40 but then went to 1k >.>
At first though with the timings, that's obviously possible because of skill and whatnot or just a well thought out build order or even coincidence, but the micro... yea.
Not sure if you are serious or not; but obvious auto inject, 2800 apm etc doesn't really fall under "shady", but rather ridiculously blatant. You should report him.
On April 08 2011 12:21 akalarry wrote: i just played a guy who i think might have the same hack? he makes like 7 spines against my unscouted 4 gate, and his queen injects were ridiculous. he also had like 700 apm but that could be done by a macro script or whatever. too bad he still cant win the game with hacks loooool
Not sure if you are serious or not; but obvious auto inject, 2800 apm etc doesn't really fall under "shady", but rather ridiculously blatant. You should report him.
On April 08 2011 12:21 akalarry wrote: i just played a guy who i think might have the same hack? he makes like 7 spines against my unscouted 4 gate, and his queen injects were ridiculous. he also had like 700 apm but that could be done by a macro script or whatever. too bad he still cant win the game with hacks loooool
i just watched it again, it's not the same nvm. still shady though, although maybe he was just doing mass spines into mutas
well 2800 apm and stuff could just be from a macro script by just holding down 1 button. also, i wasn't sure about the queen inject since it isn't same as the op. i'm not too familiar with it so i'm not sure if it could possibly be just from macros on the computer. he wasn't injecting at 25 energy every single time
I dont understand why people think that hacking their way up the ladder will make them good. Yeah, they have some bragging rights, but people who legitly go and compete (like I do, MLG PROVIDENCE NOVEMBER 2011 BABY!) are the people who matter in the pro world. Yes it is annoying to play hackers on the ladder, which is why I play a mix of ladder + custom.
Its blatenly obvious the guy was hacking, and it makes me sad when Blizzard wont do anything about it. (Im mad them banning forum trolls like me takes priority over hackers and stuff, although I admit i got what I deserved on the Bnet forums)
Blizzard needs to focus more on SC2 but I feel that wont happen as much because of the oodles of cash they make off World of Warcraft. Theyre much more concerned about making WoW players happy I feel.
On April 08 2011 13:37 Drunkasarous wrote: Blizzard needs to focus more on SC2 but I feel that wont happen as much because of the oodles of cash they make off World of Warcraft. Theyre much more concerned about making WoW players happy I feel.
They're completely different teams, WoW has almost nothing to do with Starcraft.
On April 08 2011 13:37 Drunkasarous wrote: Blizzard needs to focus more on SC2 but I feel that wont happen as much because of the oodles of cash they make off World of Warcraft. Theyre much more concerned about making WoW players happy I feel.
They're completely different teams, WoW has almost nothing to do with Starcraft.
I didnt know. Starcraft 2 is my first ever time interacting with blizzard so for lack of a better term, I dont know shit.
Believing what you wrote, I now feel we need to light fires under the chairs of the Starcraft 2 Blizzard team
On April 08 2011 13:37 Drunkasarous wrote: Blizzard needs to focus more on SC2 but I feel that wont happen as much because of the oodles of cash they make off World of Warcraft. Theyre much more concerned about making WoW players happy I feel.
They're completely different teams, WoW has almost nothing to do with Starcraft.
I didnt know. Starcraft 2 is my first ever time interacting with blizzard so for lack of a better term, I dont know shit.
Believing what you wrote, I now feel we need to light fires under the chairs of the Starcraft 2 Blizzard team
Do you honestly think they sit around at HQ twiddling their thumbs? It's okay if you don't know how things work on their turf, but to blindly say that they're not making effort to fix problems is stupid.
What I find suspicious is that, despite his flawless roach micro / spawn larvae injection / simcity in the beginning, he lacks a lot in his playstyle: there are no overlord spread, no map awareness, almost no scout after 8 min...
On April 08 2011 13:37 Drunkasarous wrote: Its blatenly obvious the guy was hacking, and it makes me sad when Blizzard wont do anything about it. (Im mad them banning forum trolls like me takes priority over hackers and stuff, although I admit i got what I deserved on the Bnet forums)
They ban hackers in waves, as is standard industry practice.
Their forum admins and their people working on Warden are uh, completely different. They can do both at the same time.
To people saying that he burrowed roaches/injected larva without selecting the units, that is incorrect. sc2gears registers that he did select the units. He just did it so fast that you aren't able to tell by watching it.
(I'm not denying that it's a bot, but people should really stop making such stupid statements)
It's probably impossible to write AI's that can beat top players, but I imagine that with the help of these various tools that seem to pop up, someone like, say, me, should never have to lose a game again. Any master level player that is given not just perfect injects as zerg, free scouting, automated burrow, but also the added time you don't have to bother with those things, could easily become the best player in the world. You can just focus purely on strategy and unit positioning, and since those aren't too hard when you have perfect information, it's pretty much impossible to beat you.
Also, these kind of things are why they should require pro's to provide a private stream of their play for online tournaments for the admins to check. Suppose that you find a way to make use of these programs less blatant, or you just practice enough with them so that you learn how to mask the appearance of cheating, then you can win the TSL and 30k dollar just like that. Given that the TSL3 had qualifiers, essentially anyone could have joined, there's no way to only allow top players who you're sure are legit.
Just watch the replay. Yeah definate a hack. OP better report this to Blizzard. @Okiesmokie: You are the one making a useless statement. He didn't select any queens, that the bot did select the queen in like 1ms. People are right about the fact the samyaza didn't select his queens to inject.
On April 08 2011 19:41 Caphe wrote: Just watch the replay. Yeah definate a hack. OP better report this to Blizzard. @Okiesmokie: You are the one making a useless statement. He didn't select any queens, that the bot did select the queen in like 1ms. People are right about the fact the samyaza didn't select his queens to inject.
Did you not look at the screenshot? Go open the replay up in sc2gears.
The point was that people are saying he was doing things that are impossible in the game engine. (Burrowing roaches/injecting larva without selecting the units.) When infact he was selecting the units. Sure it is physically impossible to do it that fast, but that wasn't what was being argued.
On April 08 2011 19:41 Caphe wrote: Just watch the replay. Yeah definate a hack. OP better report this to Blizzard. @Okiesmokie: You are the one making a useless statement. He didn't select any queens, that the bot did select the queen in like 1ms. People are right about the fact the samyaza didn't select his queens to inject.
Did you not look at the screenshot? Go open the replay up in sc2gears.
The point was that people are saying he was doing things that are impossible in the game engine. (Burrowing roaches/injecting larva without selecting the units.) When infact he was selecting the units. Sure it is physically impossible to do it that fast, but that wasn't what was being argued.
Well yes the hack is selecting the units so fast that it doesn't show in the game but that doesn't really mean people are wrong when they say HE didn't select any units.
On April 08 2011 19:41 Caphe wrote: Just watch the replay. Yeah definate a hack. OP better report this to Blizzard. @Okiesmokie: You are the one making a useless statement. He didn't select any queens, that the bot did select the queen in like 1ms. People are right about the fact the samyaza didn't select his queens to inject.
Did you not look at the screenshot? Go open the replay up in sc2gears.
The point was that people are saying he was doing things that are impossible in the game engine. (Burrowing roaches/injecting larva without selecting the units.) When infact he was selecting the units. Sure it is physically impossible to do it that fast, but that wasn't what was being argued.
Well yes the hack is selecting the units so fast that it doesn't show in the game but that doesn't really mean people are wrong when they say HE didn't select any units.
You're arguing semantics. People in this thread were saying the units weren't selected at all. It doesn't matter if "he" or "the bot" selected them, the fact is that they were selected.
"He injected without selecting the queen" - If they meant what you are implying, then they're contradicting themselves, because "he" didn't inject either.
On April 08 2011 20:21 fizzgig_ wrote: Ok, I think we can actually prove this is hacking; I just noticed the queen gets selected off-screen to do the inject without using a hotkey....
You can inject on the minimap, but I do not think you can select a unit off-screen without a hotkey?
(for reference, I am looking at the instructions in the actual replay file, so I know for a fact no hotkey was used for it)
Clearly a D3D Bot. There is lots of evidence previous posters already seen and wrote.
Too bad TehWarden actually can't do anything against this. Doing a hack via D3D bridge has wonderful tendency not to write anything in SC2 process memory map. It only reads from it. So, Warden doesn't see anything when it scans for known or random hack offsets. Disadvantage is a bit ugly hack (because it is either windowed or needs a second monitor or clumps existing) but 100% Warden proof. Maybe if Blizz implements reading various process handles, it will get detected. But that would mean scanning your entire process block. I think they can't do that because of "privacy" reasons.
TeamLiquid Forum should offer Blizz their community support. in cases like this, the community proved with facts that this guy hacks. Now blizz only needs to bann him.
Tons of qualified SC2 experts here to analyze replays and give blizz a hand in identifying hackers. and for free!!
Blizz! please direct-bann for hackers identified by the TL-community!
You can inject on the minimap, but I do not think you can select a unit off-screen without a hotkey?
You can do this actually.
Would you mind telling how?
Select queen (hotkey), click inject (hotkey), click on minimap where your hatchery is. It takes practice to do it quickly, because on big maps it can be a pain in the ass. edit: whoops misunderstood. yeah I'd like to know how too
On April 07 2011 23:04 redviper wrote: Looks like a network injection program. i wrote something similar for Lineage 2 a long time ago and it is a lot easier to design and a lot more versatile than input based bots. The only real difficulty is getting the protocol and decrypting the packets, something that can be done easily enough. And in SC2 it will be even easier because the server actually sends global information to the client, so you don't even have to guess anything.
Its a lot harder to detect also by warden because the bot doesn't have to live on the same machine, it can be on a different network altogether.
Yes, a lot of popular hacks also for Diablo 2 were based on network injection, so it wouldn't surprise me if this was the same. I guess what makes these hacks difficult is that first the SC2 client has to be reverse engineered (to a certain extent) in order to understand the packets sent between server/client. I'm pretty sure if Blizzard used an encryption algorithm to protect the packets sent between client and server, that would make network injections much harder to write; at least that's what the solution is in general for client-server applications.
Yeah its pretty interesting what you can find out with a archive manager and a decompiler. Reverse engineering software has been around for ever, but when you get to the nuts and bolts, all software is just files executed on your computer, this machine code can be easily converted back to source(albeit semi-readable) and encryptions can be broken given enough time/power. The tools are out there to do it... It just makes me sad that people do. Whats the fun in having the computer play for you? So you can flex your e-peen to all your friends?
It is because enjoyment is largely outcome dependent. The complex roach micro that the bot does and the culminating battle entertain the player. While the more elite players want to achieve it through difficult manual control, some of the lower level players will settlefor the more primitive control as used by cheaters
This could explain why I see ALOT of zergs right now and ALOT of roach openings from them. Im gunna have to watch these replays. im high diamond trying for masters.. and have notice a rather extreme spike in macro/skill of my zerg friends.
On April 09 2011 00:33 Meldrath wrote: This could explain why I see ALOT of zergs right now and ALOT of roach openings from them. Im gunna have to watch these replays. im high diamond trying for masters.. and have notice a rather extreme spike in macro/skill of my zerg friends.
......seriously? lol
People are roaching more because of Mondragon's games on TSL man >.>
On April 09 2011 00:33 Meldrath wrote: This could explain why I see ALOT of zergs right now and ALOT of roach openings from them. Im gunna have to watch these replays. im high diamond trying for masters.. and have notice a rather extreme spike in macro/skill of my zerg friends.
These kinds of control hacks existed in BW, and I'm sure they're both possible and in fact exist in SC2. Because of the large number of players, this kind of thing will definitely be in demand.
BTW...wow. Please learn to use punctuation, OP. That made my head hurt.
On April 09 2011 02:46 PH wrote: These kinds of control hacks existed in BW, and I'm sure they're both possible and in fact exist in SC2. Because of the large number of players, this kind of thing will definitely be in demand.
BTW...wow. Please learn to use punctuation, OP. That made my head hurt.
Haha for sure.. this must be the biggest thread that a WALL (cliche, yes. But in this case the topic was brick and mortar, air tight) of text with no punctuation has ever drawn.
It's kind of scary that there were two instances reported so quickly. I hope it's not spreading I want to ladder today!
Wow, I was perusing my favorite D2 hack site (Don't hate >), and I saw there was an SC2 hacks forum. Low and behold, there is the same bot, readily available, and free. I was angered, and a lot of people had already downloaded it.
Horrible horrible thing. I absolutely hate hacks in competitive games...
On April 09 2011 04:00 Alejandrisha wrote: ... It's kind of scary that there were two instances reported so quickly. I hope it's not spreading I want to ladder today!
On April 09 2011 04:00 Alejandrisha wrote: ... It's kind of scary that there were two instances reported so quickly. I hope it's not spreading I want to ladder today!
Holy shit... just looked at the micro... theres no way that is humanly possible. he pretty much had a roach disadvantage, + against 4 infestors and still won... strong wtf. doesnt even switch screens to inject or anything. clearly hacking. I doubt a pro with even the best micro could come anywhere close
On April 09 2011 04:00 Alejandrisha wrote: ... It's kind of scary that there were two instances reported so quickly. I hope it's not spreading I want to ladder today!
Blizzard needs to act real quick. This is a master leaguer fell victim to the hack. This guy deserve no second chance. If Blizzard take the action, make it permanent ban. But there is some crazy nuts out there, they will just buy the game once more and hack AGAIN.
If I know this hacker in person, I would punch the hell out of him -_-.
Orrrrrrrr, this guy has widescreen and quick fingers<_< Edit: and if you hold ''R'' and click roaches, you could get a serious spike in apm, because of holding down a button+clicking.
The evo chamber block is justified. I can give him the benefit of the doubt and say he put one down for ups then put the other two down as he saw the blings. But he did not cancel at the end....
The micro is definitely botted. Never selects queens and they auto inject.
The 800 amp roach micro was happing wile he was macroing at his base.
On April 07 2011 07:38 majestouch wrote: first off this is the wrong forum for hacking posts (there is a thread for it search "tl hacker database" i'm too lazy to link you to it) 2nd, why were you playing 1v1 on gutterhulk-- a 2v2 map? 3rd, did you register an account to just make this post?
lastly, since you got 3 strikes from me I'm simply not going to look at the replay, however, that is odd he went from 40apm to 700, however, quite hillarious nonetheless.
This is pretty interesting. I believe this is the first actual sign of a legitimate hacker at work on SC2.(could be completely wrong here). I'm not sure what kind of programming would be required to execute these actions though, it must be pretty in depth, and I'd like to see the code of it to see what how they did it.
I would assume it's basically a game inside of a game, since everything is so precise. This sucks to see this in SC2, but it's fairly interesting.
On April 09 2011 23:55 Newtonz wrote: This is pretty interesting. I believe this is the first actual sign of a legitimate hacker at work on SC2.(could be completely wrong here). I'm not sure what kind of programming would be required to execute these actions though, it must be pretty in depth, and I'd like to see the code of it to see what how they did it.
I would assume it's basically a game inside of a game, since everything is so precise. This sucks to see this in SC2, but it's fairly interesting.
Eh, nothing really interesting about it really. Looking at the replay he is using at least 3 hacks. An auto inject for queen, a map overlay/hack (with replay screen lock), and the roach micro bot. The Roach one is used by simply targeting all roaches you want to micro, and presetting parameters, such as "burrow at 15 HP, move away from battle, un-burrow at 50 HP" ect
This is all assumption however. Although there is absolutely no doubt about the fact that the hacks/bots are going on. If I where the type I would try and call him out on it if I played him in ladder/ say a post from him on the official forums. We simply have to hope that all hackers are reported by every player they play. The more we report the easier it is for Blizzard to mass them up for a banning wave.
Now what i'm worried about is are these kind of hacks easily detectable? The hacker in OP's replay is making it a bit too obvious but what would happen if the hacks were a bit more 'subtle' and harder to notice during gameplay?
On April 09 2011 23:55 Newtonz wrote: This is pretty interesting. I believe this is the first actual sign of a legitimate hacker at work on SC2.(could be completely wrong here). I'm not sure what kind of programming would be required to execute these actions though, it must be pretty in depth, and I'd like to see the code of it to see what how they did it.
I would assume it's basically a game inside of a game, since everything is so precise. This sucks to see this in SC2, but it's fairly interesting.
Eh, nothing really interesting about it really. Looking at the replay he is using at least 3 hacks. An auto inject for queen, a map overlay/hack (with replay screen lock), and the roach micro bot. The Roach one is used by simply targeting all roaches you want to micro, and presetting parameters, such as "burrow at 15 HP, move away from battle, un-burrow at 50 HP" ect
This is all assumption however. Although there is absolutely no doubt about the fact that the hacks/bots are going on. If I where the type I would try and call him out on it if I played him in ladder/ say a post from him on the official forums. We simply have to hope that all hackers are reported by every player they play. The more we report the easier it is for Blizzard to mass them up for a banning wave.
I was more thinking about how the program would recongnize the fact the roaches needed to be borrowed. For instance did the program keep count of the energy of the Queen or did it simply note it was at 25 energy and then injected. And did the roaches get burrowed and moved based of the color of their health or the actual number of life left. I find it interesting on a programming view of it, just because there's a few ways to actually go about doing it.
On April 07 2011 09:39 padfoota wrote: Also, I dont see why people think its so amazing to make a hack like this. Its pretty much the same as writing an AI, when you try to do macro.
Roach micro -> When unit Hp < X, R+Move Command X distance towards Base This of course is provided that you have them all selected or something.
agreed. anyone who thinks this is a mind blowing program has no programming experience.
I think the evo chambers and spine crawlers are a little fishy but not completely unreasonable. In a regular game if you saw that you'd shrug it off as overly cautious but since he's clearly hacking with the insane micro and macro, he's probably hacking across the board
So at first I didnt believe such a hack even existed. Googled it, instantly found it. Seems to be less than a week old judging by their advertisements. They are using GSL footage to advertise their hack...lol. "Idra fails to kill 20 siege tanks with 100 zerglings? We can fix that!".
This is bad news, really bad news. But since the bot routines are easily detectable by Blizzard's anti-cheat software, it shouldnt take too long for the bans to start rolling out.
On April 10 2011 08:51 MrBadMan wrote: So at first I didnt believe such a hack even existed. Googled it, instantly found it. Seems to be less than a week old judging by their advertisements. They are using GSL footage to advertise their hack...lol. "Idra fails to kill 20 siege tanks with 100 zerglings? We can fix that!".
This is bad news, really bad news. But since the bot routines are easily detectable by Blizzard's anti-cheat software, it shouldnt take too long for the bans to start rolling out.
Uh, that's not a hack, that's a custom map someone's programmed that AI into.
in europe, there was recently a competition to write a SC2 bot, and there was a whole tournament between universities. maybe this is one of them. but the fact that he perfectly injects while having 700+ apm WITHOUT looking at the queens and while having all roaches selected, makes me think this was just a straight hack
Yep, thats legit map that some guys made and are asking for more ideas in thread on tl, for now its 100 lings vs 20 tanks. I don't think it's connected;)
Also, biggest proofs this is hack, is that he didnt select roaches to burrow. You can see what units he is selecting, and he never selected single roach. He always had whole control groups.
2nd thing, he never selected queens i believe.
3rd, this micro he did isnt possible, but even if it would, no human would make perfect injecting while microing 30 roaches singularily, and this guy injected at 25 energy moment while in middle of battle;)
I don't often speak smth is a hack, but this is for sure. Especially this guy quite sucked tbh. Minor thing is lack of any scout, in zvz after hatch first scouting is crucial. So i guess he had hack but didnt want to show in at camera replays, or he just knew he cant lose after getting burrowed roaches, so he knew only thing that can kill him is banelings before he has roaches+burrow. So he blind countered them, but timing was rly fishy as well;)
A little research on the internet will show you that there are auto-larvae spawners, burrow triggers, and more. Someone has built an API that lets you script against SC2, and tons of people are using it for "evil". I'm sure Blizzard will knock it out in a ban wave, but I expect we'll be seeing more of these on the ladder as time goes on. Generally, these people tend to suck at the game and stick to the lower leagues, but you never know where a few will end up.
On April 10 2011 09:33 PantsSC2 wrote: A little research on the internet will show you that there are auto-larvae spawners, burrow triggers, and more. Someone has built an API that lets you script against SC2, and tons of people are using it for "evil". I'm sure Blizzard will knock it out in a ban wave, but I expect we'll be seeing more of these on the ladder as time goes on. Generally, these people tend to suck at the game and stick to the lower leagues, but you never know where a few will end up.
We simply need a "Cheater League" , so this guys can battle it out without hurting anyone.
If a fair amount of players actual "want" to use Cheats and Hacks, give them what they want.
Fighting the "Hacks" is pretty much pointless , as there is allways a "next one" no matter how much you bann / especially as you never bann the "good ones" that really hurt you the most, just the super crazy bad public hacks which you can find simply by google.
*But some of the Hacks just show what peops could really "need".
A auto-larva inject is something the game could easily support on its own; if it would be slighty slow, it would give noobs a help and pros would ignore it as they can do it faster anyway.
*Say Auto-Larva inject has a delay of 3 seconds, but you can't forget it; or it consumes "more" energy than manually inject. Peops are happy in lower leagues and you they don't "need" a hack for it.
**Ofcourse they could "learn" , but thats the point of Hacks, you want your reward without learning.
On April 08 2011 19:38 Okiesmokie wrote: To people saying that he burrowed roaches/injected larva without selecting the units, that is incorrect. sc2gears registers that he did select the units. He just did it so fast that you aren't able to tell by watching it.
(I'm not denying that it's a bot, but people should really stop making such stupid statements)
to be fair anyone watching the replay from the first person view would not see it as u pointed out the action happened so quickly that it was not appearable without the use of a program such as sc2gears which breaks down specific actions. This is not a sign of stupidity it is more a lack of tools which allow the possession of information.
On April 10 2011 09:33 PantsSC2 wrote: A little research on the internet will show you that there are auto-larvae spawners, burrow triggers, and more. Someone has built an API that lets you script against SC2, and tons of people are using it for "evil". I'm sure Blizzard will knock it out in a ban wave, but I expect we'll be seeing more of these on the ladder as time goes on. Generally, these people tend to suck at the game and stick to the lower leagues, but you never know where a few will end up.
We simply need a "Cheater League" , so this guys can battle it out without hurting anyone.
If a fair amount of players actual "want" to use Cheats and Hacks, give them what they want.
Fighting the "Hacks" is pretty much pointless , as there is allways a "next one" no matter how much you bann / especially as you never bann the "good ones" that really hurt you the most, just the super crazy bad public hacks which you can find simply by google.
*But some of the Hacks just show what peops could really "need".
A auto-larva inject is something the game could easily support on its own; if it would be slighty slow, it would give noobs a help and pros would ignore it as they can do it faster anyway.
*Say Auto-Larva inject has a delay of 3 seconds, but you can't forget it; or it consumes "more" energy than manually inject. Peops are happy in lower leagues and you they don't "need" a hack for it.
**Ofcourse they could "learn" , but thats the point of Hacks, you want your reward without learning.
But these guys are like smurfs. All they want to do is stomp on the little people. Except they're not even good enough to smurf, so they have to rely on cheats.
The brutal fact is that a lot of this Automaton works allready as 3rd Party Add-Ons, without the need of a custom Map or ingame AI.
Bots in the internet have significant features for Macro and Micro.
On one side i would love to see "bots" battle it out under each other in a "bot league" ; just to get the most insane SC2 action you could ever imagine, no human could ever do that.
But ofcourse it sucks if players use this tools to gain an advantage against others, thats not fair.
On April 07 2011 20:57 Dsn4001 wrote: I took a look at the actual program to see how it works. It's really interesting, it even obfuscates its processes/names to protect itself from Blizz just banning based on program flags.
The program in no way interacts with the SC2.exe, and there are ZERO .dll injections or any other kind of code interference. All it does is just read SC2.exe memory and display it in a overlay. I'm really suprised Blizzard didn't do anything to make it harder for programs to simply read off game data like this. Seems like lazy coding on their part.
Honestly there is no way Warden will be able to detect this hack without Blizz breaking privacy laws. The only way Blizz can possibly prevent this is to change the way the SC2.exe stores game information in its memory.
QFT. And Blizzard has made some changes in the past year regarding how the game stores data in RAM but none of them were targeted at stopping this sort of thing. They seem content to just ban the obvious maphacker kiddies and sue the people that make (unstoppable) external hacks.
It presents interesting discussions from a programming standpoint because to encrypt that data would introduce all kinds of latency to what is already a CPU-intensive game. There are other ways of going about it but seriously Blizzard does not seem to consider this a priority - not that they could stop easily if they wanted to.
On April 10 2011 09:22 SCBadger wrote: in europe, there was recently a competition to write a SC2 bot, and there was a whole tournament between universities. maybe this is one of them. but the fact that he perfectly injects while having 700+ apm WITHOUT looking at the queens and while having all roaches selected, makes me think this was just a straight hack
what league was this game btw?
No It can't be a AI, because not only can you easily tell it's a player playing aside from the injects and roach micro, but because it's not easy at all to have an AI script in SC2 run as a player, in fact it's virtually impossible as far as I know. You'd have to go under a completely different approach of reading the game's memory and directly injecting commands into the game from there (the AI would use any sort of 3rd party code like C). That is essentially what they did in Starcraft 1 as far as I know, and it took a long time. The biggest example is called the Brood War Application Programming Interface (BWAPI), and it resulted in some extremely amazing AIs that can beat semi-professional players (without cheating, not even map hack). They were the result of a similar sort of competition like you mentioned.
I'm actually interested to hear more about this SC2 AI competition, I haven't heard much about such things, and think it has a lot of potential. I'm actually surprised at how little progress people seem to be making in this respect considering the year SC2 has been around for— then again that's nothing compared to the many years of SC1.
On April 10 2011 21:38 NeoR wrote: That was insane micro, it could be hack but I'm no expert.
If that second line wasn't also sarcasm, I could explain it, since there might be many people around that can't understand how this is different than human ability/behavior.
All the roaches are ordered to burrow at a certain health level, told to move back (from what I heard, haven't verified the move command), and only unburrowed exactly when they hit full health. All this WHILE doing PERFECTLY timed queen injects.
While a human probably couldn't even burrow the roaches as fast as this, the biggest issue is the individual/personalized un-burrowing of the roaches. Simultanious un-burrowing of roaches combined with the burrowing is impossible for a human to do when you are constantly unburrowing them at PRECISELY 100% health, no later, no earlier, and constantly burrowing roaches at low health of a certain health level, never higher.
There's also rather clear lack of continuity between the automatic actions of the roaches, and what the player wants to do with his units.
Reminds me of the D2 LoD days.. there were rune bots around who navigated using either the graphics engine or by running pattern recognition scripts on the screen graphics. Either way, shit was sick. Wasn't detected by Blizz either, at least not for a long time. I imagine this could be similar.
On April 08 2011 19:38 Okiesmokie wrote: To people saying that he burrowed roaches/injected larva without selecting the units, that is incorrect. sc2gears registers that he did select the units. He just did it so fast that you aren't able to tell by watching it.
(I'm not denying that it's a bot, but people should really stop making such stupid statements)
wow many actions in 1 second! I wish scgears had a feature to show milliseconds
Please not this is not a 3rd party program - all the code was written in Blizzard's World Editor.
I didnt mean that the "Automaton" is just translated and does exactly the same.
I just mean that 3rd Party Tools can actual read the Memory and send commands, which gives you comparable results.
The Roach Micro in the clip is an example, as its auto-inject and all that stuff.
Just google for SC2MapPro and stuff like that ; i would even say thats "exactly" the tool that is used in the clip, as the feature are provided by it.
To be true its allmost shocking how much Hacks exist for this game, and all of them have some features to hide themself.
I mean, the obvisious thing is that someone does crazy amounts of actions in just 1 second, if the commands are intentionally delayed, nobody will see it; and so the features are allready marked as "risky".
Its like MapHacks , some still look in the dark, click stuff they can't see and that makes it super easy to detect them; but others don't do this stuff, or cheat around the Replay Recorder.
I would never say "no it doesnt" , pretty much everything works right now, or is just a matter of time to become a real problem.
No It can't be a AI, because not only can you easily tell it's a player playing aside from the injects and roach micro, but because it's not easy at all to have an AI script in SC2 run as a player, in fact it's virtually impossible as far as I know. You'd have to go under a completely different approach of reading the game's memory and directly injecting commands into the game from there (the AI would use any sort of 3rd party code like C). That is essentially what they did in Starcraft 1 as far as I know, and it took a long time. The biggest example is called the Brood War Application Programming Interface (BWAPI), and it resulted in some extremely amazing AIs that can beat semi-professional players (without cheating, not even map hack). They were the result of a similar sort of competition like you mentioned.
I'm actually interested to hear more about this SC2 AI competition, I haven't heard much about such things, and think it has a lot of potential. I'm actually surprised at how little progress people seem to be making in this respect considering the year SC2 has been around for— then again that's nothing compared to the many years of SC1.
And the game was diamond league I think.
Its a player with a 3rd Party Tool. The tool is able to switch "on/off" , so at the start its on and does the split of workers and stuff like that; than at some point its switched off / maybe just MapHacks are active ; and the player plays on its own. Some "features" will only activate on some circumstances; like the Roach Burrow ; others are just Auto Inject and stuff like that.
Its not a complete automatic AI; while it actual "could" do that aswell, currently this tool seems to be just a massive Hack collection to "support" a human player.
The SC2 API doesnt exist as crazy as in SC1 , but its damn near ; SC2 structs are really not complicated enough to make it difficult to build a API for it (especially as you have the Map Editor to get some details of how the game works in detail; so its easier to search for them in the game memory).
*However, its a pretty difficult task for Blizzard to do something against this "trend" , theirs really no protection at all beside carefull players that look for them.
I think us non-hackers (aka those of us who have self-respect) should just be vigilant and every time we find a hacker we should report him and then go through his match history and get as many people as possible to report him based on their own replays.
the gamespeed was set to slowest. However when you watch the replay, its default set to normal so you really dont have any idea how they play it out in what gamespeed in reality.
Thus its possible to acheive 200-700 apm streaming since u are theorically doing much faster.
I know this for a fact since i did the same thing for the marine split challenge.
After reading through this, it seems like there are a lot of people calling for blizz to ban, or worried that these guys will never get caught, blizz's method of banning is that they do it in huge waves, this means it takes the hackers longer to catch up with blizz's new detection methods. If they just banned one by one it they would be giving away what they knew about with each ban
bahaha, and people say that SC2 can't be micro intensive. if SC2 is still around in 10 years; I believe tip-top pros will be able to micro similar to the replay and the automaton vids.
making macro easier? well that apm has to go somewhere. which amounts to unit control.
though i totally agree that this is a hack and anyone associated with it should be banned.
On April 14 2011 12:14 tronix wrote: bahaha, and people say that SC2 can't be micro intensive. if SC2 is still around in 10 years; I believe tip-top pros will be able to micro similar to the replay and the automaton vids.
making macro easier? well that apm has to go somewhere. which amounts to unit control.
though i totally agree that this is a hack and anyone associated with it should be banned.
maybe in this specific replay people might be able to micro close to it if the pros get A LOT better but the maker of the automaton videos has said that his bot was playing at 15000 apm to do the things it was doing... i dont think any existing mouse/keyboard can support 15000 clicks per minute and lets not even bring in the topic of effective apm lol
On April 14 2011 12:14 tronix wrote: bahaha, and people say that SC2 can't be micro intensive. if SC2 is still around in 10 years; I believe tip-top pros will be able to micro similar to the replay and the automaton vids.
making macro easier? well that apm has to go somewhere. which amounts to unit control. .
No. Players will never be able to replicate such micro, because it's just not humanly possible. SC1 has been out for more than 10 years and even the best players are nowhere close to micro bot(s) with 10k apm. You can control few units similarly to bot's perfect micro, but you simply can't control 20 units like that.
its absolutely funny how ppl are still saying slowest gamspeed oh he is trolling etc , im not gunna post a lie guys just keep in mind that there are hacks for sc2 and ppl use them on ladder to win why would i post a random video and make a paragraph on this topic im not asking anyone to beelvie what im saying im simply just making you guys aware of whast out there and just to show you guys what to look for when hackers attack this guy is clearly modding his sc2 with hacks so just be aware of what there is thats all im saying in this post but this guy was cheating and it was a ladder game letting you all know to clear that up thnks for feedback and hopefully we can get hackers banned thnx for reading everyone!
EPT
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