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Chill: This thread is about how the perception of balance is not in-line with hard statistics. If you don't have a comment about that fact, DO NOT post in this thread. |
This topic again!! This will just ensue flaming , you are clearly stating that protoss is imbalance and QQing about Zergs.
If you wanna make topics like this, post it on blizzard's forums.
You know what really bugs me? The fact that every single zerg whines and complains about their race... yet blizzard does nothing about it (Bet you weren't expecting that). It really makes no sense that Zergs would actually whine so much if their race was balanced.
After looking at the Starcraft 2 community, I now understand why politicians get nothing worthwhile done. Look at a collossus for instance. If the colossus is hitting 5 units then its doing 91 dps (excluding upgrades and armor). That's more DPS than any unit in the game. So what does blizzard and our excellent community tell zerg... that they need to make corrupters. Despite being terran, I've watched a lot of zerg vs protoss games and pretty much no matter what, zerg always come out on the bottom end of a final battle with the assurance that once they are on 5-6 bases to a protoss' 3 bases they can remax their army and then the fight is even again... But it never is, because a protoss deathball hard counters a practical zerg army at the loss of 30 food or less (practical, meaning an army that isnt super risky i.e. banelings).
You look at that kind of balance, and say, "Oh, the zerg just haven't figured out how to counter it yet." Does that really matter? This game is balanced in such a way that protoss have one tier 3 unit that is so much better than the counterpart (carriers), and all of their other units, that players would be fools not to get them. And after you get colossus, then the entire ground army that has been mustered throughout the whole game is now just the colossus' meatshield because it does that much damage!
Personally I find it ridiculous that protoss is built so colossus-centric. I think it makes them boring to watch, and definitely makes it look imbalanced when they're watched. That's actually something to think about also. Whenever a PvZ is being shoutcasted, doesn't it seem like all of the attention is on zerg? The shoutcaster will glance at the protoss' base just to make sure they aren't deviating in any way from the standard deathball build, but then the rest of the game, the focus is on zerg to see how zerg will stop this army that they've seen so many times, but have still failed to come up with a way to counter.
Who am I, a gold league terran, to judge the overall balance of a game? It might be balanced, but I think the way it's balanced is incorrect/boring, and it would be super interesting to see a month of what protoss would do if the collossus just didn't exist. We would probably see carriers, definately high templar, probably much more hallucination tactics and harass that is just unnecessary for protoss to do in the current state of colossus but would make them so much more exciting as a race to watch.
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On April 01 2011 23:34 gavss wrote:
actually it is as bad as you think.
protoss players were using the "4 gate strategy" a lot in those tournaments. it is a risky strategy. if zerg holds a 4 gate rush without losing too many drones, he wins.
therefore protoss players started to use "turtle to get colossus & void" strategy. overlord dropping and nydus worms is not a viable counter to counter strategy. good placed pylons and a few stalkers defend really well.
meta game is changing and protoss win rate is increasing. colossus is a broken unit. i don't think protoss needs colossus at all. gateway units and sentry micro is good enough. watch ogsmc.
Yehhhh sooo all we have to do is be able to play like MC the best player in the world :D. Great, how bout you just watch/play like nestea. and im sure you will stomp any of the toss you are currently playing.
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What *actually* will prevent observers from falling asleep is when zergs start using more harass-oriented strats. Roach/hydra is very immobile, while drops/nydus/muta harass/ling run-ins can be very effective. They also prevent P from getting 200/200 to easy -> problem solved
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Not gonna talk about imbalance, but i do agree that ZvP games are just very boring to watch.
It's either a 4/5/6 gate timing attack, or a 200/200 deathball that moves out and the game is decided in 1 big battle. There is rarely any back and forth like in TvZ or (sometimes) TvP.
It just makes for boring one sided games, where you might aswell just skip 3/4 of the game because nothing is happening. Obviously i'm generalizing but that is just how it feels to me (i'm terran).
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On April 01 2011 23:20 Zato-1 wrote:
The OP feels really weird. It starts out like a balance whine, then just as you're getting ready to whip out the statistics to back your balance complaints, you turn around and say "Gee, it's not nearly as bad as I thought". I fail to see the point of the OP or the thread...?
he descried a thought process and how he went on to confirm / deny it. He reported his findings and ended the thread saying he was surprised.
If you recognize yourself in his thought process like I do then this thread gives you a little hope that zergs have a chance.
I do however agree that with that data set you can't show anything and when I watch zvp or play it i still feel there's nothing I can buy with money that will make me feel safe. A feeling I've never had in a strategy game before.
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On April 01 2011 23:23 SupastaR wrote:
The reason why Protoss are beating zerg is because zerg aren't doing it right in my opinion. Zerg's cannot just engage a 200/200 protoss deathball without a perfect unit comp and far better upgrades, sometimes that is not even enough. Zerg need's to be harrasing, dropping, nydus worming, pushing before deathball gets up and taking more bases aggresively vs that turtling protoss style, or the deathball will kill them.
this doesnt change the fact that zergs cant barely win as soon as protoss has the deathball. and in my opinion thats just not how the game is supposed to be.
assuming one player has a huge advantage over the other player in terms of number of bases and economy then he should be able to beat the other player.
but this is barely the case with the current protoss lategame deathball.
and yes hydra drops and nydus shenanigans might be able to crush a protoss. but still its imbalanced that zerg has to execute strategies which are risky and require lots of apm in order to counter protoss' 60apm-25min-turtling-deathball-strat.
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so Protoss is up in both Matchups and Zerg is down in both. Seems balanced!
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On April 01 2011 23:17 gavss wrote:
get 2-3 bases and defend until you are 200 supply. make colossus and void rays. attack move. win.
this is how fun protoss is
Get six bases without putting any agression on your opponent. Build a bunch of roaches and mutas and get ass handed to you by the protoss 200 deathball you've allowed to be built. QQ in TL about imbalance.
This is how fun zerg is.
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I have just gotten my younger brother to start watching sc2 games for the past week. He doesn't understand the game fully yet but he can't understand why anyone would play any other race besides protoss 
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People needs to chill. Wait for MLG this weekend and see how much impact the infestor change had, and we'll talk about it on monday.
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On April 01 2011 23:45 Alexj wrote:
What *actually* will prevent observers from falling asleep is when zergs start using more harass-oriented strats. Roach/hydra is very immobile, while drops/nydus/muta harass/ling run-ins can be very effective. They also prevent P from getting 200/200 to easy -> problem solved
Problem is:
Protoss going for 4/6+ Timing = Z that wanted to play Harass will get killed because he needs Roaches/Hydras to defend against that stuff.
Protoss going for the 200/200 Ball = Z going also for high Econ better finish this with his first attack or it's over.
Z can't play "save/strong" against both this things as it seems... Thats why it ends up boring as hell. If Z prepares against either "baseline" strat (and the map supports that kind of play) the Toss is doing and is right the Toss will probably lose, if not he seems to have an instant win.
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I see this in so many zerg games, both against protoss and terran. The zerg gains a huge food lead and is up like 190 vs 140...and then they sit on their ass while their opponent gets to 200 food uncontested, thus losing any army advantage they had in the mid-game.
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i feel like every time i see protoss lose in this matchup its because they suck at walling off or because they got baneling busted
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On April 02 2011 00:00 Logros wrote:
I see this in so many zerg games, both against protoss and terran. The zerg gains a huge food lead and is up like 190 vs 140...and then they sit on their ass while their opponent gets to 200 food uncontested, thus losing any army advantage they had in the mid-game.
attacking into forcefields and cannoned chokes is generally not worth it
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France45 Posts
Street Fighter 4: some matchups are up to 7-3 or 8-2, meaning someone with a specific character will win only 3 rounds out of ten, while a game is first to 2 (which means roughly 10% chances of winning a game, while some match have been in a first to 10). And yet, well, it was ok. Sagats was a bit EVERYWHERE and it was kind of boring, but no good player in his right mind would bash another for playing it.
Starcraft 2: 6-4 statistics, and best of seven for finals of the highest tournaments.
TL;DR: Get over it, bunch of pussy.
P.S: zerg OP, I got 25% win by 6pooling in diamond.
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Some of the replies here show why balance discussion is best left between the pros and the developers. Players who aren't very good at the game talking about balance as if they know what they are talking about, and in many cases, talking in absolutes or using an opinion of a popular player to justify their own bias is painful to read.
I don't get what people try to achieve by talking about balance on Team Liquid.
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First off, lol at the people who didn't read OP's post and think he's whining.
My thoughts: for some reason, the perceived imbalance makes PvZ the matchup I'm most interested in watching. The full deathball CANNOT be directly engaged, and that is not necessarily game-breaking. I enjoy watching the Zerg efforts to stop the ball from forming and the Protoss efforts to build it up. I enjoy when the Protoss doesn't go for the deathball and tries something that the internet denizens have deemed less effective.
And I like OP's stats. Including only recent games as the benefit of summing up the current metagame, but the detriment of being too small of a sample size to draw authoritative conclusions. Can someone doe the math, but isn't 56% win rate within one standard deviation of 50%?
Edit: What's with the balance whining in this thread? The OP has clarified the point of his post was to build excitement for spectating MLG, and that recent results suggest Protoss victory isn't a foregone conclusion. So...can we talk about whether or not the match-up is exciting and not about "zomg Protoss so imba?!?!"
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I honestly do not think that 1/2 of the posters read the thread OP. I am glad you see the light OP,as a Terran the only thing I hate about how "imbalance" trend effect the game is that I face well over 50% protoss on the ladder right now due to ( I assume) people bandwagoning.
Side not, I am a Bronze player ( I have played about 40 total games in the month I have owned the game) and it is kinda silly the amount of Protoss I face that attack with a gateway force, and throw 2 random force fields in the middle of my army that due absolutely nothing..... Monkey see monkey do!
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I don't believe there is real imbalancce in ZvP. One thing I do think is how it's just a very depressing matchup. From personal experience I know when I win I'm sad and when I lose I'm sad. It's just plain not fun to play.
From a spectator perspective the same applies. I just feel so empty watching ZvP games even when Z wins or P wins. There is no epicness about it. It's Protoss either absorbing pressure than killing Z or doing a timing attack and it's Z either high eco then dying or doing a timing attack.
Honestly nerfing HT did nothing good for the matchup. Protoss SHOULDN'T have to remain in a deathball to be effective. They should be able to engage around the place with smaller forces and be the mobile army we once saw and loved in BW. It's just silly that they have to create this boring dynamic because otherwise there's no hope for them.
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EPT
