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[D] Imbalance as a spectator. - Page 2
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Chill: This thread is about how the perception of balance is not in-line with hard statistics. If you don't have a comment about that fact, DO NOT post in this thread. | ||
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redFF
United States3910 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
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red_
United States8474 Posts
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GrackGyver
61 Posts
Does this say something about the overall design of protoss units? I think it does, especially when you hear the pros lament about PvP. You can be in denial all you want about the retardedness of colossi and/or FF but I'm pretty sure one or both will be patched down the road. That or other units tweaked to deal with them better. User was warned for this post | ||
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Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
On April 01 2011 23:23 SupastaR wrote: I'm inclined to agree. People used to say to protoss and terran player who put no pressure on zerg and then got overrun 'Well yeah, it's zerg, if you put no pressure and don't force him to make units, he's just going to drone and overrun you, you've got to put pressure.'The reason why Protoss are beating zerg is because zerg aren't doing it right in my opinion. Zerg's cannot just engage a 200/200 protoss deathball without a perfect unit comp and far better upgrades, sometimes that is not even enough. Zerg need's to be harrasing, dropping, nydus worming, pushing before deathball gets up and taking more bases aggresively vs that turtling protoss style, or the deathball will kill them. Now this is sort of the case with protoss, if you just not attack in the mid game, he can get maxed, at that point he's stronger than you, and overrun you, you've got to keep the pressure on. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10950 Posts
PROTOSS VS ZERG is so boring. If the P is not going for some really fancy opening nothing special ever happens (will the Z win in the midgame or will he just get rolled?). Anf when it goes to lategame, no matter how the game started it will look the same anyway. | ||
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GrackGyver
61 Posts
On April 01 2011 23:23 SupastaR wrote: The reason why Protoss are beating zerg is because zerg aren't doing it right in my opinion. Zerg's cannot just engage a 200/200 protoss deathball without a perfect unit comp and far better upgrades, sometimes that is not even enough. Zerg need's to be harrasing, dropping, nydus worming, pushing before deathball gets up and taking more bases aggresively vs that turtling protoss style, or the deathball will kill them. Hahahahaha. "Use nydus more!" Yeah, sounds familiar. And as far as taking more bases, I'm sure anyone following enough pro games right now has seen 5-6-7 base zerg lose to 2-3 base toss deathball. So no, taking more bases doesn't help if the zerg army can't kill anything in the end. | ||
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Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
But as a spectator i fully agree...i am getting soooo depressed when watching ZvP (sometimes even ZvT, when looking at a slow siege/bunker push, and poor zerg not being able to do anything about it). Protoss has several options, starting with a chance to end the game with few cannon, or unscouted hidden pylon in his base. Early poke that can end the game by ff the ramp. Then by doing some kind of 1-2base aggressive push, which doesn't effect them almost at all if zerg is prepared for it, they can just back of and take the 3ed, and if he overdrones...just go kill him. And if not that, there is a window of time where Toss has to turtle up, and push out with maxed army, this is the time where zerg can't do anything to stop it. So yah...i am in the same boat :/ | ||
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Tyree
1508 Posts
...because some Protoss player beat a Zerg? User was warned for this post | ||
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Sakarabu
United Kingdom132 Posts
On April 01 2011 23:17 gavss wrote: get 2-3 bases and defend until you are 200 supply. make colossus and void rays. attack move. win. this is how fun protoss is And zerg can do nothing to stop P getting a third base amiright? This is just a blatant whine thread and should be locked. Really? Taking evidence from only 4 tournys? 56% win rate in that case is amazingly balanced since so many different factors come into play such as player skill, how the player felt that day, build order poker... etc etc TL Buzz word of the day seems to be: Sample Size. So many people seem to totally not understand the concept. As to the OP: You seem to completely miss the dynamic of the ZvP matchup. After watching this new style of Protoss vs. Zerg where Zerg has a huge base lead and creep literally covering half the map, and a 200/200 rolls what looks like on your screen as a massive lead it gets a little disheartening 200 supply of Z was NEVER intended to beat 200 supply of P units (Since they can reinforce alot faster), as soon as you get that viewpoint out of your head you might enjoy spectating alot more. Likewise a Z with a baselead on P or T isn't "a massive lead", it's how the game is designed, Z is always meant to be ahead on bases and it's been like that since BW. The way you are talking right now just makes it look like you lack any kind of game sense or foresight. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
Against 200/200 balls Zerg needs to put more pressure on the home bases. Nydus should become mandatory. Therefore P won't dare to run out with the giant deathball they have now. Simply because P has to keep some units back to defend. Also, Zerg needs to build roach warrands on different hatcheries. My problem with SCII atm: You cant be cost effective with a small number of units against a big number of units. Which is bad for defenders. | ||
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Miketorreza
United States26 Posts
Like what happens in other games, like fighting games for instance, the characters with the easiest match-ups on paper tend to do consistently better than characters with hard ones. It's true! Some characters are actually better than others! Hard to believe, huh? I don't understand the nay saying, blatant denial, and willful ignorance from this community of what could potentially be a humongous problem to a game with such incredibly high stakes(money wise) as this. As a guy who watches a lot of Starcraft, BW and II, and a ton of other competetive games, this definitely puts a damper on things and makes me feel weird about how open Blizzard is to making drastic changes to this game, and nervous about how much money is on the line for something that could potentially be unfair. | ||
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GrackGyver
61 Posts
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gavss
Turkey94 Posts
protoss players were using the "4 gate strategy" a lot in those tournaments. it is a risky strategy. if zerg holds a 4 gate rush without losing too many drones, he wins. therefore protoss players started to use "turtle to get colossus & void" strategy. overlord dropping and nydus worms is not a viable counter to counter strategy. good placed pylons and a few stalkers defend really well. meta game is changing and protoss win rate is increasing. colossus is a broken unit. i don't think protoss needs colossus at all. gateway units and sentry micro is good enough. watch ogsmc. | ||
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frucisky
Singapore2170 Posts
And playing against Protoss with a harass style is very difficult as Zerg. Its very easy for harass to become very all-in-y. When a Terran harasses he has pretty cost efficient units and bunkers to fall back on, if he fails. A Zerg's harass, on the other hand, has to succeed. If damage is not done, protoss can at any time, add a few warpgates and bum rush you. | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
he thought (for example) ZvP were imbalanced as shit, and then realized, that in the few tourneys he saw, it actually was not the perfect, but better balance than he thought. I hop i understood it corrctly. Exactly why I don't like Idra, he makes all Zergs (and other spectators) think the game is so much imbalanced, while in fact there is still a really high chance that any player can win vs any other. | ||
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Olinim
4044 Posts
On April 01 2011 23:32 Koshi wrote: Zerg needs to trow constant aggression it seems. As long as there isn't BW multitasking being used, I am not certain if anyone can yell imbalance. Agreed, there is a different sort of multitasking needed in SCII than in BW. But I am pretty sure more harassing/nydus play is possible. Especially in ZvP, where there are no siege tanks to defend. Against 200/200 balls Zerg needs to put more pressure on the home bases. Nydus should become mandatory. Therefore P won't dare to run out with the giant deathball they have now. Simply because P has to keep some units back to defend. Also, Zerg needs to build roach warrands on different hatcheries. My problem with SCII atm: You cant be cost effective with a small number of units against a big number of units. Which is bad for defenders. Can you elaborate here? Obviously the more another army outnumbers another the less effective the other army will be. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On April 01 2011 23:23 SupastaR wrote: The reason why Protoss are beating zerg is because zerg aren't doing it right in my opinion. Zerg's cannot just engage a 200/200 protoss deathball without a perfect unit comp and far better upgrades, sometimes that is not even enough. Zerg need's to be harrasing, dropping, nydus worming, pushing before deathball gets up and taking more bases aggresively vs that turtling protoss style, or the deathball will kill them. While that is true when you think about it that in itself is a flaw. Why does 1race have to do so much different stuff just to prevent other race from getting an army? Yes i know races are different but the way you said it, it makes it looks even more there actually is a problem with the balance of the game. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10950 Posts
Drop a few lings? Oh, he just warps a few Zealots in, Harass denied... The things you call harass are most of the time damn near Doomdrops or the Z army is actually split in half, small scale harass does not work against Protoss (except with Mutas). The other problem with these "active" styles is... If the Protoss went for something entirely diffrent there is a high chance that your agression will just be crushed by a Protoss that also goes for a strong Push (6 Gate/Blink?). | ||
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