EPTNASL: Koreans? Top Koreans? - Page 87
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crms
United States11933 Posts
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thebig1
248 Posts
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Brian333
657 Posts
I think the foreign competition is going to need to change their approach to the game and I think rightfully so. Many foreign teams are already in the process of establishing team houses or further organizing an environment that breeds improvement and success like the Koreans have been doing for a decade and I think that this is great. If the type of preparation, livelihood, and professionalism that is required to be a pro-gamer is detailed and shown to casual spectators, I think it will help with the perception of e-sports and the elevation of SC2 into the stratosphere of intellectual competition that it deserves. | ||
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Bart
494 Posts
My country is a country where protectionism for the aborigines is enshrined in the constitution. The aborigines (ie original ppl of the land) get special discounts when buying property, car etc. They are allocated 90% of the local university places. It is a requirement that all local and foreign companies operating in my country must have a certain percentage of aborigines on their board of directors. Do you know what this did to the aborigines in my country? It made them lazy. It made them lazy to the point that the passing rate for exams at all lvls from primary school to university level is lowered every year so that they can pass. It made the other races in the country (non-aborigines) work harder than ever to prove themselves which caused jealousy on both sides, ie jealous of favourtism (other races) and fear of being overtaken economically and acadamically (aborigines). At the current state, both sides are wary of one another and everybody is scared that one small thing said or done could be blown up into a huge racial thing and there will be civil war. Take the example above and replace "aborigines" and "other races" with "NA and EU players" and "Korean players". Do you want what is happening in my country to happen to SC2? Why can't we be like Singapore where everybody is of equal status and given equal opportunity? Where ppl know that there is no favourtism and hard work pays off. | ||
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PepperoniPiZZa
Sierra Leone1660 Posts
You guys would be totally fine with them attending if they would look like americans. What other reason is there for not having koreans attend? They're beatable if you're willing to commit to it, they don't cheat, they're very mannered, they work hard and they show the very best games in the world. | ||
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underdawg
United States399 Posts
On March 17 2011 13:39 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: The people arguing for not inviting any koreans are pathetic racists. You guys would be totally fine with them attending if they would look like americans. What other reason is there for not having koreans attend? They're beatable if you're willing to commit to it, they don't cheat, they're very mannered, they work hard and they show the very best games in the world. not to mention assuming that europeans are more marketable than koreans. why? because of their command of the english language? oh because they're white huh | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On March 17 2011 13:39 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: The people arguing for not inviting any koreans are pathetic racists. You guys would be totally fine with them attending if they would look like americans. What other reason is there for not having koreans attend? They're beatable if you're willing to commit to it, they don't cheat, they're very mannered, they work hard and they show the very best games in the world. I hope you're joking, I don't think any level headed person here is racist towards koreans. Most people at TL are huge fans of korean players... | ||
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
If there was a qualifier instead of an invite system, no one would bitch about Koreans. If there was one big national qualifier tournament, say the top 50 people are chosen from one large 5000 person national tournament scheduled in like California in a day. As horrible as this system would be, it is more fair than the invite system. If a Korean player flew in from Korean to the United States, sent in their video application, and then fought through to make top 50 in a qualifier, no one would be crying about Koreans. Everyone will admit that they earned their spot. Instead, because a korean players get auto invited because they are already in GSL, we get debates such as this one over whether or not to invite Korean players. The invite system is the only part of the NASL I find to be pretty stupid. It's inclusive and elitist. First, is conflict of Interest. No offense to InControl, I'm sure he is a great player, and on par with even korean players, but he doesn't have any major tournament wins. You can bet your ass though, with him being the "face" of the NASL, if he or any player in EG or any of his friends without any tournament results get chosen as one of the 50, there is going to be a shitstorm. There are going to be tons of conflict of interests accusations going around. There are going to be tons of "the only reason he got in was because he's friends with Incontrol." Secondly, this invite system, to an outside observer, seems like one big circle jerk between the current top starcraft players and sponsorship money. Why should the top current players get a free pass to a 100k prize pool straight off the bat? Because they won a tournament 3 months ago? They should play to earn it, just like how GSL held 3 qualifier tournaments to establish Code S and Code A. That is the most fair system. Granted, such a qualifier introduces a lot of randomness into the equation. An extremely worthy player, as an example lets say Liquid'Tyler might be unlucky and be unable to qualify. He is obviously one of the best players in America, but he failed the qualifier and couldn't get in. This shouldn't be a problem because if he really is one of the best players he will eventually qualify for the NASL. Maybe it'll take him 2 season, but it requires work and dedication. But you know, as players and spectators we are constantly asked to be patient and trust that good things will come. Shouldn't this be applied to players as well. If they really are good enough and deserving to get into the NASL, shouldn't they also be patient and wait until they finally manage to get top 8 in the 1024 person qualifier. St_Bomber is arguably one of the strongest terrans in the world, but he's been in Code B for 2 seasons now. But he'll keep working on it, because that is what is fair. This will also serve to make the NASL more competitive, and more competition = better quality of play from North American players. Honestly, that 5000 player one weekend qualifier in California is such a terrible idea, but still so much better than the invite system. You could seed it, make it best of 5s, make it double elimination, to try to eliminate randomness. Maybe turn it into 5 large qualifiers throughout the nation and take the top 10 from both. If you really are one of the best players in NA, then you should be confident that you're a good enough to make top 10 or top 50 in such a large tournament. And it shows, that if you're from out of the country or some other part of America, and still travel to that qualifier, that you are serious about competing in Starcraft and that 100k prize pool. But you know, it's probably way too late to change the system now. But Xeris and Incontrol should know, that it is because of their invite system you get issues like this. | ||
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dtz
5834 Posts
btw ogs guys submitted their applications and i think they showed PLENTY of characters. Ensnare : " IdrA called me faggot. I.don't.forget MC : I am perfect. No weakness. Nada : People call me Genius Terran. Remember me. I think when they interact with the foreigners like Huk, we can see their less "formal" side and that makes it very endearing | ||
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
On March 17 2011 13:42 avilo wrote: I hope you're joking, I don't think any level headed person here is racist towards koreans. Most people at TL are huge fans of korean players... I think the vast majority are not racist against Korean players, but I think there is some cultural bias. That whole "Koreans will be boring" thing, and "Koreans can't speak English" IS racism, just not at all the racism that Pepperoni seems to be talking about. It's more focused on the cultural divide, which might prove to be a barrier to "creating interesting storylines," whatever that means. But no, I don't think very many, if anyone here, is thinking "THEY'RE NOT WHITE, GET THEM OUT." Maybe, "they don't speak English, how will they interact?" is more appropriate. | ||
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Bart
494 Posts
On March 17 2011 13:42 GhostFall wrote: I feel like this Korean issue stems from the invite system for season 1 of NASL. BAM I think GhostFall hit the nail on the head. | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
On March 17 2011 13:44 DeckOneBell wrote: I think the vast majority are not racist against Korean players, but I think there is some cultural bias. That whole "Koreans will be boring" thing, and "Koreans can't speak English" IS racism, just not at all the racism that Pepperoni seems to be talking about. It's more focused on the cultural divide, which might prove to be a barrier to "creating interesting storylines," whatever that means. But no, I don't think very many, if anyone here, is thinking "THEY'RE NOT WHITE, GET THEM OUT." Maybe, "they don't speak English, how will they interact?" is more appropriate. It's a euphemism at best. The entire "they can't interact" concept is utter crap. Players like Cella interact plenty enough. | ||
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
On March 17 2011 13:48 Zeke50100 wrote: It's a euphemism at best. The entire "they can't interact" concept is utter crap. Players like Cella interact plenty enough. I don't necessarily disagree, I'm just underlining the point. I want to see more Koreans in the NASL, personally. I'd think around 15 would be AWESOME. Still, it's not a racist point. It's fair enough to say that you won't get non-English speakers bantering with each other. There are some exceptions like Cella, but he's hardly top tier. The top tier Koreans seem to be the ones that people are against being present in the NASL. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5256 Posts
On March 17 2011 13:50 DeckOneBell wrote: I don't necessarily disagree, I'm just underlining the point. I want to see more Koreans in the NASL, personally. I'd think around 15 would be AWESOME. Still, it's not a racist point. It's fair enough to say that you won't get non-English speakers bantering with each other. There are some exceptions like Cella, but he's hardly top tier. The top tier Koreans seem to be the ones that people are against being present in the NASL. I agree that it is definitely not intentionally racist, but approaching that line is quite jarring to be honest; it is one thing to talk about the problems of having non-English speakers able to interact with the English speakers, but many, many people bleed it into "koreans are boring and only good mannered" or "koreans dont belong in a north american tournament". The problem with this debate is that both true skill and interactiveness of koreans has not been fully tested, imo, as they have not had the opportunity to fully interact with the foreginer community. The opportunities they HAVE had seem to be quite entertaining, would you say that Moon's quote "koreans own white dudes" was not banter? If I was one of those "white dudes", I would want to own Moon and prove his ass wrong. Even in BW there have been many numerous displays of hilarity; a simple language barrier should not stop this. Give them the chance, and the Koreans will entertain. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On March 17 2011 12:29 avilo wrote: I just sorta skimmed, but i'll add my two cents, tho i'm sure i'm just echoing some other person's opinion that's posted already  I don't understand why some people would just wanna watch 50 koreans play. Technically, right now i'm sure if you wanted the "best" players you could just have 50 koreans from the SC2 korean teams play in this, as they train in houses together and are generally better obviously... But what would the point of that be? We want to catch up to the koreans, and the only way that can happen is if more tournaments are formed here with prizes and sponsors and teams offering salaries...as that makes people train to be better. It would be pretty boring to just watch the koreans own everyone in NASL. I don't mind korean players playing, but the only reason they would be playing in this would be for the money, not to help develop NAesports which they already have access to in a e-sports atmosphere that's already been developed in korea for 10 + years. Also, how does it help attract public attention to the sport when spectators in the end would just be left with, "oh yeah, sc2, i've heard of that tournament in cali. I'd watch but it's boring when those asian guys always win." NA needs to do the same that korea did to develop e-sports here...so imo it's pretty stupid people want to just see "NA koreadominationleague" league instead of actual north americans playing in it... I'm not in favor of gsl 2 in NA by just inviting 50 koreans to fill the spots for the tournament. I don't really believe anyone in this thread wants that and I've read the entire thread. Also it seems that many of the posts are in favor of seeing some of those guys come here and play. Quite a few have been playing since broodwar and I'm sure they have fans that would like to see them play, say hello, wish them well etc. Of course they are interested in the money. Many have stated that in their video they posted asking for entry for that sole purpose. They do this for a living. This isn't just for fun for them. Well yeah some people may feel that way but the gsl doesn't get that reaction from what I've seen. You gotta remember also that more people in the United States typically play FPS/sports/console games. RTS isn't for everyone and it's unrealistic to believe just because of one tournament that may or may not get dominated by international players is gonna get ruined or become a national sensation. I don't know what you mean by we should do what the koreans did to get esports to develop here? You mean by getting all the teams onboard with a committee to make rules for players/tournaments/teams and basically losing money year after year so the kids can watch/play starcraft? If so sounds good to me and I don't think this will be much different here. Give it time. Good luck to you in the NASL. | ||
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LuckyMacro
United States1482 Posts
On March 17 2011 13:43 dtz wrote: http://www.youtube.com/user/haypro btw ogs guys submitted their applications and i think they showed PLENTY of characters. Ensnare : " IdrA called me faggot. I.don't.forget MC : I am perfect. No weakness. Nada : People call me Genius Terran. Remember me. I think when they interact with the foreigners like Huk, we can see their less "formal" side and that makes it very endearing LOL i loved those so much! MC with his trademark "confidence" and Nada with bed hair in front of the camera ahahaha. Top: I have good decision making. -thinks GSL game vs. FD- hehe... | ||
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acker
United States2958 Posts
On March 17 2011 13:42 avilo wrote: I hope you're joking, I don't think any level headed person here is racist towards koreans. Most people at TL are huge fans of korean players... The other explanation is that NASL is punishing people for practicing more, and that all of these people just happen to be of Mongolian descent and live in a country shaped like a rabbit. Because this issue doesn't exist for people like Idra or Jinro. "Positive" discrimination is still discrimination, and a lot of people...well, not a lot of people, but some people...on TL seem to subconciously believe that Koreans are born good at Starcraft or something. ...Unless, of course, NASL isn't shooting for "the best of the best". Which is perfectly understandable. But if that's their take, they should really change their branding. | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
I've lived between the US and Asia for my entire life and I'll just say that this talk about the cultural divide or barrier is just either ignorance, or thinly veiled racism. When i watch a sport here at a bar here in Taiwan, there is no cultural divide. I could be watching soccer, cheering in English for players that speak in Spanish while someone else next to me has a conversation in Mandarin, and someone a bit away jokes around in Taiwanese. You know what is the uniting factor here? The sport. Just because you speak English, Korean, French, German, etc does not mean the game of Starcraft is any different and that is the bottom line. Starcraft should not be used to divide people, it should be something they can unite around and the same should be true of e-sports. If someone is better than you and devotes themselves to the game more, there should be nothing but respect because it should not be about the individuals, it should be about the game. If in his hands, the game is a beautiful thing, that should not be seen as a threat, it should be seen within the bigger picture of helping e-sports blossom. If you wanted to help yourself, you should've just stuck to school and a "conventional" job. Don't forget that you are where you are because you love the games you play and the culture you are a member of. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On March 17 2011 12:49 adeezy wrote: To avilo's post, it's reasonable to say that if you have a league without them, you won't catch them. It'll be a big fish in a small pond, gotta expand to the ocean if you really wan't to catch up. If you practice against better players you will get better, as simple as that. Also gotta remember his bias if he get's to play in it. Be a man like tyler lol I never said koreans should not be allowed to play in it. I just was saying that it's ludicrous that some people want it to be 50 koreans as the entire tournament because "koreans are better." The reason everyone knows why koreans dominate SC1 is because they get paid to play on professional teams where they practice 12 hrs a day and can exchange knowledge right there with each other face to face. I'm just coming from the viewpoint that it does not help NA e-sports if you simply make NASL 50 korean players, as most likely they will win a large percentage of the time because they already have all of the resources and atmosphere to be able to train at a professional level in korea. Although I think foreigners can easily compete with koreans right now in SC2, so I'm sorta contradicting myself there, but that's not the point. The point is to build up the NA e-sports scene. Then we can get to a point where it's not "lulz it's gonna be a korean vs korean final again." | ||
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Bijan
United States286 Posts
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