EPTNASL: Koreans? Top Koreans? - Page 85
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shane_danger16
United States40 Posts
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Turgid
United States1623 Posts
Edit: How do you think people make calls about the skill levels of players across periods of time? | ||
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RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
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Dox
Australia1199 Posts
This is very similar to the SEA-SL refusing to allow mOOn-GLaDe, an Australian, to compete simply because he's too good. I understand that you want to encourage competition, but really... these players shouldn't be penalised for their success. | ||
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
This might shock some of you but "Koreans own white guys" so if we ever want to see more than 6 foreigners we have to go out of our way to make sure that most the players are just that. | ||
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imbs
United Kingdom320 Posts
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VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:44 Pudge_172 wrote: If Major League Soccer had all the players in the Premier League, they by default wouldn't be playing in the Premier League. NASL does not need and should not have players who are in GSL Code S and they should have very few players who are in GSL Code A. Comparison makes no sense. I think it is more akin to Tennis or golf where there are tournaments all across the globe and whoever qualifies may attend. The high caliber players get to play in any of the big tournaments. By big i mean high profile which INCLUDES prizemoney. Trying to create a tournament with high quality games requires high quality players regardless of where they are from. Who would go see Wimbledon if the top 10 seeds werent allowed to play? | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
 I don't understand why some people would just wanna watch 50 koreans play. Technically, right now i'm sure if you wanted the "best" players you could just have 50 koreans from the SC2 korean teams play in this, as they train in houses together and are generally better obviously... But what would the point of that be? We want to catch up to the koreans, and the only way that can happen is if more tournaments are formed here with prizes and sponsors and teams offering salaries...as that makes people train to be better. It would be pretty boring to just watch the koreans own everyone in NASL. I don't mind korean players playing, but the only reason they would be playing in this would be for the money, not to help develop NAesports which they already have access to in a e-sports atmosphere that's already been developed in korea for 10 + years. Also, how does it help attract public attention to the sport when spectators in the end would just be left with, "oh yeah, sc2, i've heard of that tournament in cali. I'd watch but it's boring when those asian guys always win." NA needs to do the same that korea did to develop e-sports here...so imo it's pretty stupid people want to just see "NA koreadominationleague" league instead of actual north americans playing in it... | ||
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baoluvboa
743 Posts
On March 17 2011 12:14 Neo.NEt wrote: I'm shocked that everybody clearly wants the best players even if its all Koreans. Last time I checked that league already existed and it's called the GSL... ever heard of it? Truth is I'd rather watch the best players play regardless of who they are but if you only put the best players in the NASL they might as well rename it to the KSL.... if you want to watch Koreans play just watch the GSL, why not have a league for mainly foreigners? This might shock some of you but "Koreans own white guys" so if we ever want to see more than 6 foreigners we have to go out of our way to make sure that most the players are just that. NASL is advertised as the best of the best in the world. Foreigners already have a lot of other leagues MLG Dreamhack ect. It is always interesting to see more top plays instead of just GSL which has big upsets and is so competitive. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On March 17 2011 12:22 imbs wrote: i do not get how people can argue that banning players for being too good is a good idea. its such a joke. "yo europe u better stay shit or they will want to ban you too" Have you seen that WhiteRa guy? I think it's time we dropped the hammer on that Ukraine place. A clear and direct message needs to be sent to the rest of Europe | ||
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Turgid
United States1623 Posts
On March 17 2011 12:29 avilo wrote: Also, how does it help attract public attention to the sport when spectators in the end would just be left with, "oh yeah, sc2, i've heard of that tournament in cali. I'd watch but it's boring when those asian guys always win." Heavy. Kinda interesting that it's predicated on the notion that foreigners would never be competitive with Koreans if being a successful progamer necessitated Korean-level professional devotion. But mainly, when the supposed attitude of the spectators is phrased like this, it's really chilling. | ||
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underdawg
United States399 Posts
On March 17 2011 12:29 avilo wrote: I just sorta skimmed, but i'll add my two cents, tho i'm sure i'm just echoing some other person's opinion that's posted already I don't understand why some people would just wanna watch 50 koreans play. Technically, right now i'm sure if you wanted the "best" players you could just have 50 koreans from the SC2 korean teams play in this, as they train in houses together and are generally better obviously... But what would the point of that be? We want to catch up to the koreans, and the only way that can happen is if more tournaments are formed here with prizes and sponsors and teams offering salaries...as that makes people train to be better. It would be pretty boring to just watch the koreans own everyone in NASL. I don't mind korean players playing, but the only reason they would be playing in this would be for the money, not to help develop NAesports which they already have access to in a e-sports atmosphere that's already been developed in korea for 10 + years. Also, how does it help attract public attention to the sport when spectators in the end would just be left with, "oh yeah, sc2, i've heard of that tournament in cali. I'd watch but it's boring when those asian guys always win." NA needs to do the same that korea did to develop e-sports here...so imo it's pretty stupid people want to just see "NA koreadominationleague" league instead of actual north americans playing in it... i'm not in favor of all koreans either. but how mainstream do you think this stuff is going to be? at best, more casual style gamers will tune into NASL one day. anyone who knows anything about SC1 at all knows that koreans dominated that game and will assume that koreans dominate SC2 as well. "oh yeah, sc2, i've heard of that tourney in cali. i'd watch but i heard that there's no koreans and koreans are the best." why would people automatically not tune in because players are korean? do you really think this tournament is going to be popular in hicksville, USA? because yeah, maybe those guys will only tune in if there's white people. it's casters and organizers' jobs to develop e-sports. the players' jobs are to win. if they want to be an ambassador, good for them, but there are tons of athletes that do a ton for their sports by just playing hard, wanting to win and wanting to get money (i.e. 99.9% of pro players). not to mention NAesports would be complete shit if not for the koreans. because it would barely barely exist. | ||
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On March 17 2011 12:14 Neo.NEt wrote: I'm shocked that everybody clearly wants the best players even if its all Koreans. Last time I checked that league already existed and it's called the GSL... ever heard of it? Truth is I'd rather watch the best players play regardless of who they are but if you only put the best players in the NASL they might as well rename it to the KSL.... if you want to watch Koreans play just watch the GSL, why not have a league for mainly foreigners? This might shock some of you but "Koreans own white guys" so if we ever want to see more than 6 foreigners we have to go out of our way to make sure that most the players are just that. I think it boils down to 2 factors, at least imo: 1.- People want to watch the most exciting players, and while we obviously have our fondness for foreigner players, I believe there are many korean player fans in the foreigner community. For example, I get much more hyped by watching fruitdealer playing, than seeing, say, ret, or satiini, to name a couple. So many people, including me, believe that the most exciting games will be brought by the most exciting players, and many of those happen to be koreans. 2.- In my case, I'm pretty sure that while there is a skill gap slowly growing, many world-class foreigners hold lots of chances against their korean counterparts. While this is still true we might as well take the chance to measure foreigner agains korean skill. The difference is not as huge as to absolutely guarantee korean dominance yet. Imo foreigner SC2 can never be the best show in the world and have the highest skill ceiling if it doesn't include the best players in the world. If many of those are korean, then so be it. This will be the best event in starcraft if and only it can garner the best of the best, foreigner AND korean. | ||
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VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
On March 17 2011 12:14 Neo.NEt wrote: I'm shocked that everybody clearly wants the best players even if its all Koreans. Last time I checked that league already existed and it's called the GSL... ever heard of it? Truth is I'd rather watch the best players play regardless of who they are but if you only put the best players in the NASL they might as well rename it to the KSL.... if you want to watch Koreans play just watch the GSL, why not have a league for mainly foreigners? This might shock some of you but "Koreans own white guys" so if we ever want to see more than 6 foreigners we have to go out of our way to make sure that most the players are just that. NASL inviting the best players doesnt make it the GSL. EVERY big tournament strives to have the BEST players playing in it regardless of where they are from. Look at golf, F1, or tennis, the sports probably most comparable to RTS esports. By inviting the best players, NASL will be a major global tournament in the sc2 circuit allowing for the most talented players to play in an American setting, not a korean setting ala GSL. This is what separates the two. If they created a 100k tourney and excluded any region, how could the casters say with a straight face, "we have some of the best players in the world at this prestigious tourney." It would be so artificial. | ||
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bubblegumbo
Taiwan1296 Posts
Just look at professional golf and tennis, like many have mentioned already. If esport is to become bigger they need to globalize it, not isolated it just like what Korea did with BW. NA players will not get better playing against each other, they will get better after playing against top Koreans and Europeans. Stop asking to be coddled. | ||
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Meta
United States6226 Posts
They should either make it impossible for Koreans to participate all together (top 50 foreigners), or use all of the best Koreans that want to play and fill in the remaining spots with the best foreigners. | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
On March 17 2011 12:14 Neo.NEt wrote: I'm shocked that everybody clearly wants the best players even if its all Koreans. Last time I checked that league already existed and it's called the GSL... ever heard of it? Truth is I'd rather watch the best players play regardless of who they are but if you only put the best players in the NASL they might as well rename it to the KSL.... if you want to watch Koreans play just watch the GSL, why not have a league for mainly foreigners? This might shock some of you but "Koreans own white guys" so if we ever want to see more than 6 foreigners we have to go out of our way to make sure that most the players are just that. Do you actually think you would feel better because you're "seeing more foreigners" knowing that the only reason they're there is because you forced them to be, rather than due to their own training and practice? This is as ridiculous as saying you should restrict Silver+ players from a league that is supposed to contain the best players because you want to see the Bronze players "thriving". Oh, and the GSL is for anybody who is committed and good enough to compete worldwide. Just because Koreans dominate the GSL doesn't mean the GSL is purely for the Koreans (otherwise, you would consider the WCG the same). Oh, and people REALLY need to understand the following: The NASL is named the NASL because it is hosted in North America, not because they want [/i]only[/i] North Americans playing, otherwise Europeans and Koreans would be excluded without any thought given to them at all (which is clearly not the case; they have expressed interest in including many players, including non-Americans). | ||
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
Also gotta remember his bias if he get's to play in it. Be a man like tyler lol | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On March 17 2011 11:24 Kazeyonoma wrote: Ouch. Good to know how you feel about the very people you want in the NASL. Some fan you are. No wonder the western esports world isn't as developed. Apathetic fans sure don't motivate me, how can they motivate players, teams, and sponsors? Go back to your casual life and enjoy it. The people who actually care about esports and want it to grow everywhere especially here in the west will be striving and supporting that which we love, not insult the people who were cheering for. I'm not insulting anyone, I'm stating facts. You on the other hand are probably more of a casual sc fan than I am. The foreign scene as of now is amateur/semi amateur, not professional. I care about e-sports as much as the next guy. That's why I want koreans in NASL. I've already stated my reasons why and I don't feel like typing them up again. I'll be perfectly honest, I'm happy with having only the Korean scene (but I do want the foreigner scene to develop as well). I've lived off of watching korean bw for the past half decade so I know what personally works for me. Doesn't mean I don't want the foreign scene expanding though. | ||
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islandhome
United States49 Posts
On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote: + Show Spoiler + basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome. you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community. Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k. You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate. That being said, consider this compromise. I've noticed that Jinro and Huk have, conspicuously, not created entries for the NASL. Let me go out on a limb, and assume this is because they are invested in Code S in the GSL and voluntarily excused themselves from the NASL to properly prepare for their upcoming GSL matches. For the invitational first season of the NASL, I think a policy of only inviting players that are not currently Code A or Code S GSL players makes sense. If we want to see the best and most exciting games, the strategies have to be prepared in advance and practiced. Someone playing in the GSL and living in Korea is probably going to be most concerned with their GSL games, with the NASL games more of an afterthought. The spectators want to see crazy metagame plays (that a NA high diamond player would totally understand), intense mindgames, and clean situation-specific builds. That's probably only going to happen if all the players in the NASL are 100% dedicated to the NASL, with a win in the NASL being their primary desire and hunger. This is a logical and fair reason to not invite the "best" players (MC, MVP, Nestea, July) that might just ROFLstomp the nascent league. It also gives NASL a chance to invite players that are fan favorites (Cella, LittleBoy, Maka) as well as Korean players that are bursting with talent that just haven't had a chance yet on the individual GSL stage (Seed & Bomber as evidenced from GSTL, for example). Maybe you could even go around to the coach of each major Korean SC2 team and ask them for their most promising, most talented Code B player. This way you'll still get amazing starcraft, still get Korean interest, and still keep this a league for North American players to prove their mettle. From what I understand, the next few seasons after the first NASL will be based on replacement through qualification -- if Code A/S players from the GSL decide that they can make that time commitment to sludge through the qualifiers and play in NASL, more power to them. Or you could keep a one-player-one-league rule. That would probably be dependent on how the first season goes. As for people that ask "do you want this just to be another GSL?", in my opinion, absolutely! I'd love to see NASL become another GLOBAL StarCraft league. I'd love to see "foreigners" and Koreans play beautiful starcraft together. I think it's absolutely amazing what GOMTV has been doing, with their foreigner practice house and automatic Code A spot (the latter, in particular, is kind of jaw-dropping if you think about the difficulty and randomness of the offline qualifiers, and is probably an unpopular policy in Korea itself), not to mention having an great English stream, what with the casting archon and additional English content. They're doing everything possible to make StarCraft 2 accessible internationally and NASL should do the same. I remember Tastosis once mentioning that a lot of Koreans actually tune in to the English stream to improve their English skills. How cool would that be, if Koreans were staying up at 3AM KST to watch their new favorite players duke it out in the NASL finals live in California?! | ||
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