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On March 17 2011 09:08 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:53 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 08:26 infinity2k9 wrote:On March 17 2011 08:24 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 08:14 infinity2k9 wrote:On March 17 2011 08:07 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 07:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 17 2011 06:46 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 04:43 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 17 2011 04:13 Kazang wrote:
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Never going to happen.*
The reason for the apparent low latency in BW was because of where the servers were located, or not in the case of direct peer to peer games. You can't specifically choose what server, know where it is or dictate how you play SC2 so you can never get the lowest possible latency. Then of course there is a physical limitation in how fast information can travel over the pacific and back again.
The BW engine is also so terrible that it actually makes high latency less noticeable, it's simplicity Vs stability in netcode. SC2 has much more robust netcode that tries to insure equality and a consistent connection, but increases latency due to the number of loopbacks to the server. SC2 is extremely unlikely to have desync errors and problems of that type, actions not registering etc, but that stability comes at the cost of more noticeable lag when the latency does increase.
*if it ever does it will be at the same time they implement LAN play. This sucks because SC2 seems to be worse in every way compared to SC1. For example, if I'm playing on KR server, and if my opponent and I give a command simultaneously, his command happens first. In this way, our games are out of sync. We do things at different times depending on our latency to the server. This isn't the case with SC1. Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game. Also in SC2, it's possible for the game to momentarily freeze and then skip ahead for one player, but for the other player to have a smooth experience the whole time. It's just really disappointing because SC:BW was designed mainly for dial-up modems. As connections improved, Blizzard did nothing, but fans were able to make adjustments to take advantage of our internet connections. And then SC2 comes out and I'm thinking it'll be nice to not have to use third party programs anymore. But then they totally sacrificed the quality of long distance connections, which kinda blew my mind with how much PR they had about building SC2 for esports. NA to NA and EU to EU and KR to KR all provide excellent online experiences but they must have known that SC2 as an esport would require good connections cross continent =[[[ Well here is the rub. SC1/BW used a different type of netcode. Basically when you issue a command, the unit does it on your client then it sends what that unit did to the server, server then sends it to the other player. Yes your actions have instant effect on your screen, but your opponent doesn't see your action until the 200+ ms later. This is better in a perfect environment, with 0 latency, and can even appear fine in high latency, but the reality is there is a difference in sync. You have the illusion of zero latency, but behind the scenes that is not the case. This is just factually wrong. Did you even play SC1 online? I don't know why I should read the rest of your post after you've written this. Maybe I should clarify about what I mean by "Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game" I give a command simultaneously with my opponent in the real world there is a delay The commands happen simultaneously in the game Our commands are simultaneous with each other. The giving of the command doesn't happen simultaneously with the game performing the command. There is a forced delay in SC1 to make up for differences in latency, that is separate to how it relates to actual latency, that is not exactly a good solution either. It just forces a delay on the player with the better latency, to give the approximate effect of doing things at the same moment. The player with the lower latency still has the reaction advantage, although less pronounced, that just physically how it works, there is a latency in the signal going a long way, you cannot get around that only try to compensate for it. That's worse than it is with how it works in SC2. If someone on a server is lagging it still effects all the players on the server in SC2. That's most evident in games with lot's of spectators, one person lagging causes the whole game to slow down and/or stutter. If your complaint is that the lag isn't equal then you are over estimating how much of a disadvantage one player is at if they play at a higher latency. It's bad for both, slightly worse for one. It attempts to meet in the middle, which as I explained before works best when both players are playing on normal latency. It doesn't change the fact that there is lag when playing long distance, it's just how it is. Asking blizzard to somehow change the laws of physics to make distance irrelevant just because it's supposed to be an esport is totally unreasonable. I dunno why you're still posting about this, but you are completely wrong. In BW lag affects all players as well, thats why if a spectator is lagging you kick them out. You have not even played it have you? There is NO reaction advantage. BW Player -> Player SC2 Player -> Server -> Player Everyones experience points to the first as working fine and better, especially when we have control over the latency with ICCUP. SC2's method is not better other than it stops people pirating the game which is not better for us it's better for Blizzard. I don't have any idea where you got your ideas about the BW netcode from. Did you even read my post? Because you clearly did not understand any of it. Its you making up shit about BW that isn't true. I understood it perfectly but what you are saying is completely wrong. Again just so you try to get it: BW has no reaction advantage, and every player in the game suffers lag if one player does, ok? Try going back and reading exactly what I wrote, it's unedited. Here I will paste it for you: "There is a forced delay in SC1 to make up for differences in latency, that is separate to how it relates to actual latency, that is not exactly a good solution either. It just forces a delay on the player with the better latency, to give the approximate effect of doing things at the same moment." The effect in SC2 is roughly the same, if one player lags all the players will lag to some extent. The way it handles this is better, and more complex, than putting a huge delay on the player with the better latency. The fact is still the same, long distances mean high latency and lag. BW or SC2, playing across long distances results in Lag it's a fact of the damn universe. SC2 really does do a better job of minimizing the effects of lag when it's played as intended, within the same region. It's gets worse when the latency gets above "normal" levels, they cannot make it better at long distance. It's as good as it's going to get. We have to make the best of what the game is. If you want to run an online tournament across multiple regions, it's going to have lag. If NASL has players from NA/EU/Korea playing each other, it's going to be laggy for all of them. It's physically impossible to not have lag. Do i have to repeat it again, that isn't how BW works. I don't know why you keep repeating it at me like the fact is going to change. There's no delay on one player, you have no idea what you're going on about. You are just 100% wrong. Every player experiences the EXACT same lag, you've clearly not played the game so just stop. Playing with Koreans on ICCUP was never a problem, even Bnet wasn't particularly a problem except for the fixed latency, generally the games were smooth. It's only in SC2 suddenly it's a problem. I've literally never ever seen someone try to make the claim a player has a reaction advantage or is handicapped because of some 'delay'. Surely some of us BW players would have noticed it by now huh?
although I dont know much in general about network and technical stuff, if its true that bw worked peer to peer than from what I experienced this what you, tyler and others said sounds plausible to me.
in rakion for example (a free game I once tried) there you also have peer to peer connections to each other client. means you got exactly the same ping, latency etc to each different single person(client) as the oppossing client got you.. to player A you had for example a ping of 130 and he has the same ping towards you and player B was lagging towards you but wasnt necessarily in his peer2peer connection towards player A. so there was no need to synchronize latency etc because there was no server forcing all on the same level..
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A lot of people seem to be blindly dismissing the idea of excluding Koreans. I see a lot of comments like, "well, the Koreans are working so much harder so they should get rewarded," etc.
What some of you guys are forgetting is that many of these Korean pro gamers have the LUXURY of being able to put in extra time while many foreigners DON'T. InControl coaches, QXC has school, a few other guys have jobs, etc. What do you expect? Without a legitimate foreign scene these guys can't AFFORD to just sit on their asses and play StarCraft all day! You've gotta get money somehow!
If the NASL only invited the TOP players of the world, then it would be a vast majority of Koreans, who would just come in and dominate, leaving very little room for the burgeoning foreign talent to get set up and even get a shot at the infrastructure and backing that Korean players get.
Part of what makes the NASL so attractive is that it suggests a growing of the StarCraft scene OUTSIDE OF KOREA. If Korean pro gamers want to move to America and leave the GSL behind, then by all means, let them try to qualify or give them an invite if they're deserving of it, but it seems like it'd just defeat the very purpose of the NASL if Korean pro gamers were allowed to just reap the rewards of being a part of both scenes. If the only purpose of the NASL is to highlight the very best players in the world, then well, just watch the GSL!
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To be honest, they deserve to enter, but at the same time, NASL should represent the best of the best outside of Korea. It's a tough decision unfortunately, and not everyone is going to come out of the decision happy. It's NASL's choice at the end.
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InControl coaches, QXC has school, a few other guys have jobs, etc.
If NASL is set up to cater to this lifestyle, then it would be considered an amateur league, not a professional league.
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Are you kidding about not letting koreans in??? tell each team to pick their five fucking best and bring it. i don't give a shit if "we" get killed, I want to see nada play machine. I want to see July go toe to toe with Kiwikaki! gimme a MC vs Catz game and i'd shit my pants goddamnit. Ya, my five cents.
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What needs to go down is a set amount of koreans allowed for the league, and have the koreans that were interested in participating do a huge round robin tournament and have that top 10-16 players participate in the NASL. I'd be happy with that amount
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On March 17 2011 11:00 nvs. wrote:If NASL is set up to cater to this lifestyle, then it would be considered an amateur league, not a professional league.
The foreigner scene as a whole is amateur. This is a common misconception people have. Professionals are those who get paid full time to play the game all day everyday as their only job. In other words, they get paid SALARIES in addition to tournament winnings. Even in Korea, only TSL has started this.
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On March 17 2011 10:56 Fighter wrote:
A lot of people seem to be blindly dismissing the idea of excluding Koreans. I see a lot of comments like, "well, the Koreans are working so much harder so they should get rewarded," etc.
What some of you guys are forgetting is that many of these Korean pro gamers have the LUXURY of being able to put in extra time while many foreigners DON'T. InControl coaches, QXC has school, a few other guys have jobs, etc. What do you expect? Without a legitimate foreign scene these guys can't AFFORD to just sit on their asses and play StarCraft all day! You've gotta get money somehow!
If the NASL only invited the TOP players of the world, then it would be a vast majority of Koreans, who would just come in and dominate, leaving very little room for the burgeoning foreign talent to get set up and even get a shot at the infrastructure and backing that Korean players get.
Part of what makes the NASL so attractive is that it suggests a growing of the StarCraft scene OUTSIDE OF KOREA. If Korean pro gamers want to move to America and leave the GSL behind, then by all means, let them try to qualify or give them an invite if they're deserving of it, but it seems like it'd just defeat the very purpose of the NASL if Korean pro gamers were allowed to just reap the rewards of being a part of both scenes. If the only purpose of the NASL is to highlight the very best players in the world, then well, just watch the GSL!
If they want to actually "spread the esport" you don't get credibility when you deny the best.
Its the typical big fish in small pond theory.
Oh about the luxery excuse.
Leenock in still in the school and he is still good enough for the GSL.
Nada is university/school (dunno wich one) and he has a constant performance in the GSL.
You know that the teamhouses/sponsors and stuff didn't just spout from the ground in korea right?
The players worked to get where they are back when starcraft was a relatively unknown title.
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On March 17 2011 10:56 Fighter wrote:
A lot of people seem to be blindly dismissing the idea of excluding Koreans. I see a lot of comments like, "well, the Koreans are working so much harder so they should get rewarded," etc.
What some of you guys are forgetting is that many of these Korean pro gamers have the LUXURY of being able to put in extra time while many foreigners DON'T. InControl coaches, QXC has school, a few other guys have jobs, etc. What do you expect? Without a legitimate foreign scene these guys can't AFFORD to just sit on their asses and play StarCraft all day! You've gotta get money somehow!
If the NASL only invited the TOP players of the world, then it would be a vast majority of Koreans, who would just come in and dominate, leaving very little room for the burgeoning foreign talent to get set up and even get a shot at the infrastructure and backing that Korean players get.
Part of what makes the NASL so attractive is that it suggests a growing of the StarCraft scene OUTSIDE OF KOREA. If Korean pro gamers want to move to America and leave the GSL behind, then by all means, let them try to qualify or give them an invite if they're deserving of it, but it seems like it'd just defeat the very purpose of the NASL if Korean pro gamers were allowed to just reap the rewards of being a part of both scenes. If the only purpose of the NASL is to highlight the very best players in the world, then well, just watch the GSL!
Well it's their job to practice and do well in tournaments. So we should have a 100k dollar fantasy tournament for certain players because they have other things in their life that prevent them from competing at the same level the koreans do? Then maybe eventually they will decide to get their shit together or get their teams to rent them a fucking apartment so they can practice all day together like the koreans do? Life is full of choices.
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On March 17 2011 11:07 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 11:00 nvs. wrote:InControl coaches, QXC has school, a few other guys have jobs, etc. If NASL is set up to cater to this lifestyle, then it would be considered an amateur league, not a professional league. The foreigner scene as a whole is amateur. This is a common misconception people have. Professionals are those who get paid full time to play the game all day everyday as their only job. In other words, they get paid SALARIES in addition to tournament winnings. Even in Korea, only TSL has started this.
Liquid, EG, FXO and others, all get paid salary.
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On March 17 2011 09:57 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate. <3
I love this guy. He speaks the truth.
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In my very inexperienced opinion, I think that having an "NA"SL, NA as in North American, yet have it dominated by Koreans wouldn't be very effective in trying to expand the eSports scene in the West as to have success expanding the scene here, players FROM here need to also find success. North Americans that are already in the scene are already used to watching Koreans win. However, that is not to say to not invite ANY Koreans. I think the NASL should accept a limited number of Code A player Koreans, especially those more well-known like ST_Ace and ST_Squirtle, as that would excite North American fans of Koreans. I think that would be enough to strike the balance between having too many Koreans that the foreigners get dominated, and too few Koreans that the League becomes stale and unexciting.
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Meant to edit, sorry for the double post.
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On March 17 2011 11:14 godemperor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 11:07 rysecake wrote:On March 17 2011 11:00 nvs. wrote:InControl coaches, QXC has school, a few other guys have jobs, etc. If NASL is set up to cater to this lifestyle, then it would be considered an amateur league, not a professional league. The foreigner scene as a whole is amateur. This is a common misconception people have. Professionals are those who get paid full time to play the game all day everyday as their only job. In other words, they get paid SALARIES in addition to tournament winnings. Even in Korea, only TSL has started this. Liquid, EG, FXO and others, all get paid salary.
Do they now? My mistake then. But is it sufficient for them to completely make a living off it?
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On March 17 2011 11:07 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 11:00 nvs. wrote:InControl coaches, QXC has school, a few other guys have jobs, etc. If NASL is set up to cater to this lifestyle, then it would be considered an amateur league, not a professional league. The foreigner scene as a whole is amateur. This is a common misconception people have. Professionals are those who get paid full time to play the game all day everyday as their only job. In other words, they get paid SALARIES in addition to tournament winnings. Even in Korea, only TSL has started this.
Ouch. Good to know how you feel about the very people you want in the NASL. Some fan you are. No wonder the western esports world isn't as developed. Apathetic fans sure don't motivate me, how can they motivate players, teams, and sponsors? Go back to your casual life and enjoy it. The people who actually care about esports and want it to grow everywhere especially here in the west will be striving and supporting that which we love, not insult the people who were cheering for.
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The new korean application vods that came in from ST and OGS are creating so much hype, how could you not want to see these guys compete in a western tournament, the 10 or so applications that came out from korean players have created more hype than the 100 or so westerner applications combined, that and the korean videos are about 10x more entertaining and you dont have to hear the same boring answers over and over again , i swear for the western videos they all looked at how one guy did it and just copied him (for the most part) prolly heard "no i dont have any rivals" close to 100 times
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I think it should be like WCG. bring a few of the VERY BEST koreans, enough so that it's not filled with randomkorea934324 taking out the best foreigners of each country, which would undoubtedly cause everyone to lose interest. Yet a Korean needs to win, since they are the best players in world (many foreigners practice just as much, if not more than some Koreans), and any major where a Korean doesn't win will lose all credibility. And, in the chance that a foreigner beat a top level korean in the final, which is definitely possible, then you have the greatest tournament (popularity wise) in the world.
Good luck
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On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate.
Beautiful post, this should be put in the OP. Conveys everything I'm feeling better than I could ever put into words.
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On March 17 2011 11:20 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 11:14 godemperor wrote:On March 17 2011 11:07 rysecake wrote:On March 17 2011 11:00 nvs. wrote:InControl coaches, QXC has school, a few other guys have jobs, etc. If NASL is set up to cater to this lifestyle, then it would be considered an amateur league, not a professional league. The foreigner scene as a whole is amateur. This is a common misconception people have. Professionals are those who get paid full time to play the game all day everyday as their only job. In other words, they get paid SALARIES in addition to tournament winnings. Even in Korea, only TSL has started this. Liquid, EG, FXO and others, all get paid salary. Do they now? My mistake then. But is it sufficient for them to completely make a living off it?
Probably not quite that much, but yeah I mean if NASL wants to make Starcraft a professional game in NA(as they state they are doing) they can't really say "Oh, well we don't want to force anyone to put 6-8 hours a day into it..." because that's exactly what a professional does.
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Seriously, is there anyone out there that would rather watch Pokebunny x Avilo instead of Nestea x MC?
Because in essence that is what the question is about. All the spots not given to top koreans would go to low americans or euros. Who would pay to watch that?
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EPT
