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Last time I checked, starcraft was a game about skill. It would be ludicrous to not invite any Korean players because of fear they would dominate the tournament. Since Korea has the biggest scene, there are tons and tons of fans for Korean pro-gamers outside of Korea. You know what kind of audience will be attracted with players like Nada in the tournament?
I say invite top players from each region so there is a very diverse group of players and so each region is represented equally.
So what if a couple Koreans dominate the NASL? That just means the rest of the players aren't on the same skill level as them and need a lot more practice.
On top of all that, isn't it good to be getting this kind of world wide attention for a NA tournament? Has that ever happened before? We could start hearing people moving to the US to play starcraft as opposed to moving to Korea to play.
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On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate.
<3
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On March 17 2011 09:52 Looky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 09:50 Angra wrote:On March 17 2011 09:47 Looky wrote:On March 17 2011 09:45 Angra wrote:On March 17 2011 09:28 Darksteel wrote:On March 17 2011 09:10 Gentso wrote:This thread reminded me of this discussion that Carefoot once had with Chea, the GSL organizer and commentator. http://www.justin.tv/nickcarefoot/b/278796498Chea says that the only reason foreigners don't do well is because there are no team houses, and that laddering simply isn't enough to be the best in the world. He's so inviting of foreigners, and admits to knowing a great deal about the foreign scene. Obviously, they want foreigners to succeed! They made a team house for foreigners for crying out loud. How disrespectful would it be to deny Korean participation simply because foreigners refuse to train seriously (team houses)? This is an e-sport, is it not? It's time for teams to get down to business and make some houses, play the Koreans, and have this thing take off. Koreans into the NASL is an amazing opportunity to either motivate foreigners to make team houses, or force them by getting whooped.Denying Koreans would be detrimental to the foreign SC2 scene and e-sports in general, because doing so would result in tournaments filled with basement dwelling ladder players instead of serious e-sport teams. I think the app. videos are good evidence of this. The bolded paragraph is so full of truth. Also in a sense that team houses don't have to be houses you live in, but practice houses you can commute to from your home, if you value your privacy and comfort greatly and/or have a family. So you would have to move to another city or country perhaps ? Thats not too unreasonable in a lot other occupations either, everyone has to make some sort of sacrifices for their job. The new "ROOT house" is a great example of this and I hope they will flourish. After watching most of the interviews from foreigner players after SC2 release, the general theme is they are really talented, but don't play enough of have good enough practice partners. Great players like Tarson, WhiteRa, Ret, qxc have said they have had lack of practice for a short period of time. Also Fruitdealer said he had focused more on having fun after GSL1 victory and that may or may not have affected his performance lately. I think NASL is a really great opportunity to motivate the foreigner scene enough to step up their practice venue/routine and help raise the level of skill. Also NASL team will most likely settle for a compromise of 5-15 koreans just to spice things up, raise the level of competition and keep all the spectators happy. The problem is, in many countries outside of Korea, it's insanely difficult to just one day decide to have a practice house and dedicate your entire life to it. A huge amount of foreigners have jobs, school, and other commitments besides SC2. And a huge portion of those players with jobs and other commitments HAVE those commitments because it's the only thing allowing them to afford their living expenses to be able to play SC2 in the first place. If someone wants to dump a bunch of money into a practice house where they pay for other players' living expenses, food, and salary, that would be really amazing. But the unfortunate truth is that it takes a lot of money to do that, and there's next to nothing that individual players can do about it, short of moving to Korea and joining one of their already established houses. root, eg, fnatiic, can do it why cant others? I'm not saying they can't, people or organizations with a lot of money can certainly go right ahead and do it - it would be great. I'm just saying it's a lot more difficult to do, and you can't blame the actual players that they aren't doing anything about it, because they really can't. I don't know if the situation has changed but earlier on I remember a lot of players in the EG house still had jobs to afford to live there, so that right there cuts significantly into practice time and kind of ruins the whole idea to begin with of having a house dedicating to practicing like the Koreans. you dont think the korean sacrifice alot to do what they do? look at lee nock hes 16 years old going to school still. even some of the progaming houses dont pay the players salary yet these players put their lives on the line for something they believe is gonna be big.
It's not about sacrifice, it's about a practice house not physically existing for many players. Like I said before, it would be awesome if someone with a lot of money in each team or clan started making practice houses for all of their players, but until that happens there's very little that actual players without a practice house to begin with can do about it.
Also, I didn't mean that EG was sacrificing a ton by playing SC2. I more meant that if they have 40 hour a week jobs, it's physically impossible for them to have as much practice time as a lot of Korean players who live in practice houses.
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On March 17 2011 09:55 Jerb wrote:
Last time I checked, starcraft was a game about skill. It would be ludicrous to not invite any Korean players because of fear they would dominate the tournament. Since Korea has the biggest scene, there are tons and tons of fans for Korean pro-gamers outside of Korea. You know what kind of audience will be attracted with players like Nada in the tournament?
I say invite top players from each region so there is a very diverse group of players and so each region is represented equally.
So what if a couple Koreans dominate the NASL? That just means the rest of the players aren't on the same skill level as them and need a lot more practice.
On top of all that, isn't it good to be getting this kind of world wide attention for a NA tournament? Has that ever happened before? We could start hearing people moving to the US to play starcraft as opposed to moving to Korea to play.
yes that would be awesome. if koreans progaming houses were, here wouldnt that motivate foreigners to have houses too?
what happen to the belief that sc2 would be bigger in the western states during the beta?
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Maybe the top SC2 foreigners should use their coaching money to buy lessons from Koreans
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My opinion:
Not inviting Koreans to NASL is a real slap in the face to GOM and the korean scene, who bent over backwards to engage the foreigners.
At the end of the day, NASL is a commercial venture - Koreans bring in the big money and viewers, therefore Koreans will be in NASL - the question is to what degree is there going to be "fairness" given the allocations of spots are not based on player skill, but an subjective assessment of such.
Quite frankly, I would be very pissed off if I saw 5 EG players and 5 ROOT players, and then guys like Ace, Top, Moon, Bomber are not invited.
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I really like the attitude that some of the pro's that posted here have displayed of welcoming the challenge of playing in this league against the best, that's the kind of attitude I like to see in the foreign scene. It is also disheartening to see other pros use what are in my opinion bs excuses as why there shouldn't be any kor. top level competition. People underestimate the foreign skill level, there are some really good players outside of kor. and I believe tsl will show that these players can compete.
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On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate.
Amen!
Hey, I think NASL should only invite bronze players, becouse obviously everyone else is too good, and bronze players provide more entertaining games.
Seriously, if you don't want to have Koreans on NASL, why then have Europeans etc.? I say best of the best or it's garbage. :D
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I don't see any reason that if the korean players are willing to play through group stages on the na server and commit to showing to the lan portion why they should be limited from competing. I can see limiting the amount that are invited or the amount that can qualify.
Any sort of outright ban would just make the league look second rate and silly, and would clearly show that it is a league about the money and not the competition. So if Nasl doesn't want to look like jv compared to any korean tournament they should open it up at least somewhat.
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On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate.
Well said, well said indeed.
If it's going to be an open online tournament they can't exclude anyone, least of all korean players who are real professional gamers, heroes of esport not just part timers, if they want to have any semblance of credibility.
That's the bottom line and I don't know how anyone can seriously argue against that.
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You guys also have to take into account the foreigner "progamers" themselves. No offense to the specific names. Look at Tyler, Qxc, Incontrol, Minigun , Machine, or any other foreign "progamer". Tyler himself says he doesn't practice much. Incontrol? Coaches like 75 percent of his day. Minigun? I heard he has a job. Machine? He coaches too. Idra? I don't feel like practicing the state of zerg derp herp. Qxc? School. Most of the koreans sacrifice way more of their time then foreigners do, if NASL gathers some random no name foreigner over a lesser known korean player, then that is a smack in the face for spectators and the koreans. "Hey you can't compete because you dedicated more time and worked harder than us!" Koreans aren't born with RTS skills, and if anyone says that their environment is unfair to foreigners, then why don't they complain once they have a 70 % win ratio in the server with the highest number of points in the world.
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On March 17 2011 09:00 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:28 MYM.ClouD wrote:
I give up at trying to explain hard work alone isn't going to take western players on par with koreans unless they go live and practice there. I wouldn't mind having a second GSL but remember, it would become a korean event and not a western event anymore. There's just too much difference, they don't speak english, don't interact with any foreign top player, have a structure that makes it possible for them to have the absolute best possible practice you can get without having the need to look outside their own country and speak with other players that are not koreans. Korean and western esports in Starcraft have always been divided and if you take them in the same place one succumbs to the other, they don't mix. I agree that purely inviting the "best" players right now would be shooting the foreign scene in the foot. If you have 35 Koreans vs 15 top Non-Koreans, the Koreans are going to go home with 90% of the prize money every season, basically funnelling that money out of the international SC2 scene. By having a massive tournament like this in the foreign scene, foreigners have an incentive to set-up professional practise regimes similar to those of Koreans. This will not happen if Koreans completely dominate and take all the money out of the international scene. However, the alternative of not inviting any Koreans is just as bad. When foreigners do not compete with Koreans, they just need to practise enough to beat the best other foreigners. This might eventually lead to pro-houses and practice regimes, but it will take a while. For foreigners to quickly catch-up with the Koreans, they have to compete with the Koreans as often as possible. If players know that someone like MVP is participating, they know that they will have to beat him at some point to win the tournament so they will have an immediate motivation to rival his practise regime (which means quality and quantity of practise). Someone else made this point regarding Age of Empires. The Korean threat can be mitigated by inviting a relatively small number of Koreans (lets say 8). 35 Koreans vs 15 Non is heavily favoured for the Koreans, but if you have 8 Koreans vs 42 Non, I very much doubt that the Koreans will win everything, especially after a few seasons. The very top foreigners can compete with the Koreans, and the game is just not predictable enough to say that foreigners are guaranteed to win everything. To me, a compromise is the ideal solution. Don't invite only players based 100% on who is the best in the world. As Strelok said in his interview, we have the GSL, and personally I have no interest in watching a lower budget GSL. What I would like to see is a truly global tournament with the best players from the different regions competing in a proper league, not some single-weekend tournament. I want to be able to follow foreigners' improvements over a period of time and see how they compete with Koreans. I also want to see foreigners being given the time to practise properly and design specific builds for specific opponents, something that will allow them to improve much more quickly. TLDR: Invite some Koreans (a reasonable amount, like 8) so that there's ample representation and competition but not enough that they will completely dominate and take over the tournament.
People smarter then I have spoken
QFT
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It comes down to what exactly is the NASL?
If you want it to be a tournament of the highest quality sc2 in the world - then there is no justification for not having at least 50% koreans.
If you want it to be a tournament where the foreign scene finds its best players - then there is no need for any koreans.
If you want it to be a tournament where the best NA players are playing - then obvioulsy no foreigners to that scene at all.
One of these needs to be picked.
What I really dont want to see is some arbitrary NA bias, where its:
~60% NA players
~20% Korean players
~20% Euro players
For the sake of what? Kick out all foreigners and ringfence it for Americans/Foreigners, or let the best players in and hold the best sc2 tournament. Having 5 token koreans is just stupid, its an admittal that you are scared of letting more in (because they are better), and if that is the case they will just win the big money anyway - so why let them in at all?
Open the gates or shut the gates.
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I don't understand the discrimination against Koreans. It doesn't make any sense to me at all that you would just exclude a certain country's players because they are better.
It's not like their DNA makes them better players, it's the fact that they train harder and want more out of their games than NA or EU players. To say that it will produce uninteresting games may hold some truth, and theoretically if you allow anyone to enter it then in theory it will generally have the same player hierarchy that the GSL does.
More over than both of those, you don't see the Koreans not giving NA or EU players the chance to compete because they're worse than foreigners. Don't you think that it would cause some international tension between the Korean SC2 scene and the foreigner SC2 scene?
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NASL should be about growing the NA/EU scene for the first 3 seasons and then seeing what impact that has had on the NA/EU scene.
Give me 30 NA 15 EU 5 KR b-teamers
Do NOT give me 10 NA 10 EU 30 KR. All that will do is convince to just watch GSL.
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I see a lot of people saying "don't invite Koreans, we already have GSL for that." Well, that's one tournament. If you want to just watch foreigners we have MLG, EPS, IEM regionals, and multiple online tournaments literally every day. What could another one possibly add? How about something new for a change? Except for TSL, a proper mix between Koreans and foreigners would be new, unique, and I think very exciting.
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WTF, inviting the best people at starcraft? That's stupid. NASL should only invite bronze players, while having incontrol insult them throughout the matches, as we've seen before. Now THAT is entertainment.
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On March 17 2011 09:00 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:28 MYM.ClouD wrote:
I give up at trying to explain hard work alone isn't going to take western players on par with koreans unless they go live and practice there. I wouldn't mind having a second GSL but remember, it would become a korean event and not a western event anymore. There's just too much difference, they don't speak english, don't interact with any foreign top player, have a structure that makes it possible for them to have the absolute best possible practice you can get without having the need to look outside their own country and speak with other players that are not koreans. Korean and western esports in Starcraft have always been divided and if you take them in the same place one succumbs to the other, they don't mix. I agree that purely inviting the "best" players right now would be shooting the foreign scene in the foot. If you have 35 Koreans vs 15 top Non-Koreans, the Koreans are going to go home with 90% of the prize money every season, basically funnelling that money out of the international SC2 scene. By having a massive tournament like this in the foreign scene, foreigners have an incentive to set-up professional practise regimes similar to those of Koreans. This will not happen if Koreans completely dominate and take all the money out of the international scene.
Pretty sure the main reason foreigners are hesitant on trying for the GSL is because of of the location, not the players. Koreans are definitely better overall, at least I think, but I do not think that is really a valid reason for shutting out all them except for a few. I also think that having more koreans in the tournament would help skill levels, not hurt it.
If the presence of koreans in the nasl is enough to scare off players to not "practice" then I don't really think they had the mindset to win any prize money from it in the first place. Also, I think the underlying reason why koreans are so far ahead at the moment is because of the amount of opportunities they have, ie. GSL. With the nasl coming up Americans will also have that same "opportunity" and it will be a lot more reasonable for them to emulate team houses like in Korea because there will actually be large prize pools unlike MLG and other smaller scale tournaments.
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The way you build up the NA/EU scene is NOT by restricting said scenes to sub-par players >__________<
Simply bringing players all around the world to North America (at least for the RO16-Finals, possibly more later on) will give a huge boost, and that boost will only diminish if the games being played are "bad".
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Seriously everyone but korean players need to ask themselves why are they
A: Fearing the koreans? If they do, is it because they think they're better? If so:
B: Stop sucking and get with the program, either you admit you're worse than the koreans or you train as hard as them and beat them. Stop making excuses.
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EPT
