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On March 17 2011 08:53 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:26 infinity2k9 wrote:On March 17 2011 08:24 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 08:14 infinity2k9 wrote:On March 17 2011 08:07 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 07:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 17 2011 06:46 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 04:43 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 17 2011 04:13 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 03:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
As long as the KR ladder remains strong, Americans have this opportunity (though Blizzard needs to make it easier for an American to connect to the KR server and get latency like in SC:BW). Never going to happen.* The reason for the apparent low latency in BW was because of where the servers were located, or not in the case of direct peer to peer games. You can't specifically choose what server, know where it is or dictate how you play SC2 so you can never get the lowest possible latency. Then of course there is a physical limitation in how fast information can travel over the pacific and back again. The BW engine is also so terrible that it actually makes high latency less noticeable, it's simplicity Vs stability in netcode. SC2 has much more robust netcode that tries to insure equality and a consistent connection, but increases latency due to the number of loopbacks to the server. SC2 is extremely unlikely to have desync errors and problems of that type, actions not registering etc, but that stability comes at the cost of more noticeable lag when the latency does increase. *if it ever does it will be at the same time they implement LAN play. This sucks because SC2 seems to be worse in every way compared to SC1. For example, if I'm playing on KR server, and if my opponent and I give a command simultaneously, his command happens first. In this way, our games are out of sync. We do things at different times depending on our latency to the server. This isn't the case with SC1. Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game. Also in SC2, it's possible for the game to momentarily freeze and then skip ahead for one player, but for the other player to have a smooth experience the whole time. It's just really disappointing because SC:BW was designed mainly for dial-up modems. As connections improved, Blizzard did nothing, but fans were able to make adjustments to take advantage of our internet connections. And then SC2 comes out and I'm thinking it'll be nice to not have to use third party programs anymore. But then they totally sacrificed the quality of long distance connections, which kinda blew my mind with how much PR they had about building SC2 for esports. NA to NA and EU to EU and KR to KR all provide excellent online experiences but they must have known that SC2 as an esport would require good connections cross continent =[[[ Well here is the rub. SC1/BW used a different type of netcode. Basically when you issue a command, the unit does it on your client then it sends what that unit did to the server, server then sends it to the other player. Yes your actions have instant effect on your screen, but your opponent doesn't see your action until the 200+ ms later. This is better in a perfect environment, with 0 latency, and can even appear fine in high latency, but the reality is there is a difference in sync. You have the illusion of zero latency, but behind the scenes that is not the case. This is just factually wrong. Did you even play SC1 online? I don't know why I should read the rest of your post after you've written this. Maybe I should clarify about what I mean by "Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game" I give a command simultaneously with my opponent in the real world there is a delay The commands happen simultaneously in the game Our commands are simultaneous with each other. The giving of the command doesn't happen simultaneously with the game performing the command. There is a forced delay in SC1 to make up for differences in latency, that is separate to how it relates to actual latency, that is not exactly a good solution either. It just forces a delay on the player with the better latency, to give the approximate effect of doing things at the same moment. The player with the lower latency still has the reaction advantage, although less pronounced, that just physically how it works, there is a latency in the signal going a long way, you cannot get around that only try to compensate for it. That's worse than it is with how it works in SC2. If someone on a server is lagging it still effects all the players on the server in SC2. That's most evident in games with lot's of spectators, one person lagging causes the whole game to slow down and/or stutter. If your complaint is that the lag isn't equal then you are over estimating how much of a disadvantage one player is at if they play at a higher latency. It's bad for both, slightly worse for one. It attempts to meet in the middle, which as I explained before works best when both players are playing on normal latency. It doesn't change the fact that there is lag when playing long distance, it's just how it is. Asking blizzard to somehow change the laws of physics to make distance irrelevant just because it's supposed to be an esport is totally unreasonable. I dunno why you're still posting about this, but you are completely wrong. In BW lag affects all players as well, thats why if a spectator is lagging you kick them out. You have not even played it have you? There is NO reaction advantage. BW Player -> Player SC2 Player -> Server -> Player Everyones experience points to the first as working fine and better, especially when we have control over the latency with ICCUP. SC2's method is not better other than it stops people pirating the game which is not better for us it's better for Blizzard. I don't have any idea where you got your ideas about the BW netcode from. Did you even read my post? Because you clearly did not understand any of it. Its you making up shit about BW that isn't true. I understood it perfectly but what you are saying is completely wrong. Again just so you try to get it: BW has no reaction advantage, and every player in the game suffers lag if one player does, ok? Try going back and reading exactly what I wrote, it's unedited. Here I will paste it for you: "There is a forced delay in SC1 to make up for differences in latency, that is separate to how it relates to actual latency, that is not exactly a good solution either. It just forces a delay on the player with the better latency, to give the approximate effect of doing things at the same moment." The effect in SC2 is roughly the same, if one player lags all the players will lag to some extent. The way it handles this is better, and more complex, than putting a huge delay on the player with the better latency. The fact is still the same, long distances mean high latency and lag. BW or SC2, playing across long distances results in Lag it's a fact of the damn universe. SC2 really does do a better job of minimizing the effects of lag when it's played as intended, within the same region. It's gets worse when the latency gets above "normal" levels, they cannot make it better at long distance. It's as good as it's going to get. We have to make the best of what the game is. If you want to run an online tournament across multiple regions, it's going to have lag. If NASL has players from NA/EU/Korea playing each other, it's going to be laggy for all of them. It's physically impossible to not have lag.
Do i have to repeat it again, that isn't how BW works. I don't know why you keep repeating it at me like the fact is going to change. There's no delay on one player, you have no idea what you're going on about. You are just 100% wrong. Every player experiences the EXACT same lag, you've clearly not played the game so just stop. Playing with Koreans on ICCUP was never a problem, even Bnet wasn't particularly a problem except for the fixed latency, generally the games were smooth. It's only in SC2 suddenly it's a problem.
I've literally never ever seen someone try to make the claim a player has a reaction advantage or is handicapped because of some 'delay'. Surely some of us BW players would have noticed it by now huh?
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1) there's only GSL there, while western esports have so much more ways to prove yourself and make money out of it
So what you're saying is... we have it good and we want to keep it that way? From this post it seems Koreans only have one tournament in which to showcase their skill and talent, and you want to keep it that way. If they truly only have the GSL, I believe their hard work deserves more outlets, since western e-sports is already strong enough anyways according to you.
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This thread reminded me of this discussion that Carefoot once had with Chea, the GSL organizer and commentator.
http://www.justin.tv/nickcarefoot/b/278796498
Chea says that the only reason foreigners don't do well is because there are no team houses, and that laddering simply isn't enough to be the best in the world. He's so inviting of foreigners, and admits to knowing a great deal about the foreign scene. Obviously, they want foreigners to succeed! They made a team house for foreigners for crying out loud.
How disrespectful would it be to deny Korean participation simply because foreigners refuse to train seriously (team houses)? This is an e-sport, is it not? It's time for teams to get down to business and make some houses, play the Koreans, and have this thing take off. Koreans into the NASL is an amazing opportunity to either motivate foreigners to make team houses, or force them by getting whooped.
Denying Koreans would be detrimental to the foreign SC2 scene and e-sports in general, because doing so would result in tournaments filled with basement dwelling ladder players instead of serious e-sport teams. I think the app. videos are good evidence of this.
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Invite the best.
It's our only chance to ever beat them.
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On March 17 2011 09:00 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:28 MYM.ClouD wrote:
I give up at trying to explain hard work alone isn't going to take western players on par with koreans unless they go live and practice there. I wouldn't mind having a second GSL but remember, it would become a korean event and not a western event anymore. There's just too much difference, they don't speak english, don't interact with any foreign top player, have a structure that makes it possible for them to have the absolute best possible practice you can get without having the need to look outside their own country and speak with other players that are not koreans. Korean and western esports in Starcraft have always been divided and if you take them in the same place one succumbs to the other, they don't mix. I agree that purely inviting the "best" players right now would be shooting the foreign scene in the foot. If you have 35 Koreans vs 15 top Non-Koreans, the Koreans are going to go home with 90% of the prize money every season, basically funnelling that money out of the international SC2 scene. By having a massive tournament like this in the foreign scene, foreigners have an incentive to set-up professional practise regimes similar to those of Koreans. This will not happen if Koreans completely dominate and take all the money out of the international scene. However, the alternative of not inviting any Koreans is just as bad. When foreigners do not compete with Koreans, they just need to practise enough to beat the best other foreigners. This might eventually lead to pro-houses and practice regimes, but it will take a while. For foreigners to quickly catch-up with the Koreans, they have to compete with the Koreans as often as possible. If players know that someone like MVP is participating, they know that they will have to beat him at some point to win the tournament so they will have an immediate motivation to rival his practise regime (which means quality and quantity of practise). Someone else made this point regarding Age of Empires. The Korean threat can be mitigated by inviting a relatively small number of Koreans (lets say 8). 35 Koreans vs 15 Non is heavily favoured for the Koreans, but if you have 8 Koreans vs 42 Non, I very much doubt that the Koreans will win everything, especially after a few seasons. The very top foreigners can compete with the Koreans, and the game is just not predictable enough to say that foreigners are guaranteed to win everything. To me, a compromise is the ideal solution. Don't invite only players based 100% on who is the best in the world. As Strelok said in his interview, we have the GSL, and personally I have no interest in watching a lower budget GSL. What I would like to see is a truly global tournament with the best players from the different regions competing in a proper league, not some single-weekend tournament. I want to be able to follow foreigners' improvements over a period of time and see how they compete with Koreans. I also want to see foreigners being given the time to practise properly and design specific builds for specific opponents, something that will allow them to improve much more quickly. TLDR: Invite some Koreans (a reasonable amount, like 8) so that there's ample representation and competition but not enough that they will completely dominate and take over the tournament.
This sounds just about right to me. People don't seem to understand that prize money going to a Korean winner every season (with 40 Koreans in the NASL it almost certainly will) doesn't help grow the starcraft foreign scene. That doesn't seem to bother most people in this instant-gratification based society we've come to live in.
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On March 17 2011 09:07 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 09:05 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 17 2011 08:57 dookudooku wrote:
MYM.Cloud,
You say that it's imposible to get the same quality of play on the European servers. But have you considered the GomTV house then?
It sounds like what you're really saying is:
1) I don't want to relocate to Korea to improve my game, to get it to the same level as the top Koreans.
2) I want to exclude top Koreans from NASL because there's no way I can compete with them unless I relocate to Korea.
Serious question:
If the community contributed enough money for you to buy a round-trip ticket to Korea and live in the GomTV house, would you do it?
If yes, then I have mad respect for you. If no, then complaining about Koreans is just makes you look like someone who doesn't want to work hard for achievements. It seems like you hope that NASL is a quick and easy way to get money, and doesn't require competing against top Koreans, unlike GSL. Moving to SK makes no sense for two reasons: 1) there's only GSL there, while western esports have so much more ways to prove yourself and make money out of it 2) North Korea These are the main reasons you don't see a lot of progamers or teams moving to SK. Would be a great practice experience but moving to a different country only to compete in GSL is ridicolous. If you fail to qualify (which is totally possible even if you are the best player in the world) there won't be a concrete meaning to be there. Look at Ret for example who had to move back to Europe or look at some players in code A who are much worse than some who are not even qualified. It just doesn't make much sense. Such is the risk of being in a competitive yet minor clique of business. You just admitted yourself, there is a way to improve and play with the best of the best but it comes with a high risk. Why punish these Korean players who are undertaking that risks to get better and be competitive when you aren't willing to?
They are not moving to a different country with the impossibility to speak with anyone cause no one knows english. It's totally different.
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Inviting as many Koreans as possible would surely increase the level of competition. Inviting 5, or 10, or 20 Koreans, I don't think it really matters since there will be open tournament for Koreans to get in the next seasons right? By the third season rolls around, I predict there will be at least 70% Koreans anyway
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On March 17 2011 09:00 Daigomi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 17 2011 08:28 MYM.ClouD wrote:
I give up at trying to explain hard work alone isn't going to take western players on par with koreans unless they go live and practice there. I wouldn't mind having a second GSL but remember, it would become a korean event and not a western event anymore. There's just too much difference, they don't speak english, don't interact with any foreign top player, have a structure that makes it possible for them to have the absolute best possible practice you can get without having the need to look outside their own country and speak with other players that are not koreans. Korean and western esports in Starcraft have always been divided and if you take them in the same place one succumbs to the other, they don't mix. I agree that purely inviting the "best" players right now would be shooting the foreign scene in the foot. If you have 35 Koreans vs 15 top Non-Koreans, the Koreans are going to go home with 90% of the prize money every season, basically funnelling that money out of the international SC2 scene. By having a massive tournament like this in the foreign scene, foreigners have an incentive to set-up professional practise regimes similar to those of Koreans. This will not happen if Koreans completely dominate and take all the money out of the international scene. However, the alternative of not inviting any Koreans is just as bad. When foreigners do not compete with Koreans, they just need to practise enough to beat the best other foreigners. This might eventually lead to pro-houses and practice regimes, but it will take a while. For foreigners to quickly catch-up with the Koreans, they have to compete with the Koreans as often as possible. If players know that someone like MVP is participating, they know that they will have to beat him at some point to win the tournament so they will have an immediate motivation to rival his practise regime (which means quality and quantity of practise). Someone else made this point regarding Age of Empires. The Korean threat can be mitigated by inviting a relatively small number of Koreans (lets say 8). 35 Koreans vs 15 Non is heavily favoured for the Koreans, but if you have 8 Koreans vs 42 Non, I very much doubt that the Koreans will win everything, especially after a few seasons. The very top foreigners can compete with the Koreans, and the game is just not predictable enough to say that foreigners are guaranteed to win everything. To me, a compromise is the ideal solution. Don't invite only players based 100% on who is the best in the world. As Strelok said in his interview, we have the GSL, and personally I have no interest in watching a lower budget GSL. What I would like to see is a truly global tournament with the best players from the different regions competing in a proper league, not some single-weekend tournament. I want to be able to follow foreigners' improvements over a period of time and see how they compete with Koreans. I also want to see foreigners being given the time to practise properly and design specific builds for specific opponents, something that will allow them to improve much more quickly. TLDR: Invite some Koreans (a reasonable amount, like 8) so that there's ample representation and competition but not enough that they will completely dominate and take over the tournament.
totally agree with all your points, nice post
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On March 17 2011 09:08 Ikuu wrote:
20 NA 15 Euros 15 Koreans, there you go.
Fenix, Catz and Moonglade am cry.
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On March 17 2011 09:08 Ikuu wrote:
20 NA 15 Euros 15 Koreans, there you go.
If I were to decide: 17 NA, 25 EU, 8 KR.
Closer to the TSL that has a pretty great mix.
On March 17 2011 09:14 Bobster wrote:
Fenix, Catz and Moonglade am cry.
We'll pretend they are NAs and koreans based on were they live.
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On March 17 2011 09:10 Techno wrote:
Invite the best.
It's our only chance to ever beat them.
Lol in that case it would be 45 koreans and 5 foreigners. Yeah I am pretty sure the 5 have a very high chance of beating them then.
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On March 17 2011 09:05 MYM.ClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:57 dookudooku wrote:
MYM.Cloud,
You say that it's imposible to get the same quality of play on the European servers. But have you considered the GomTV house then?
It sounds like what you're really saying is:
1) I don't want to relocate to Korea to improve my game, to get it to the same level as the top Koreans.
2) I want to exclude top Koreans from NASL because there's no way I can compete with them unless I relocate to Korea.
Serious question:
If the community contributed enough money for you to buy a round-trip ticket to Korea and live in the GomTV house, would you do it?
If yes, then I have mad respect for you. If no, then complaining about Koreans is just makes you look like someone who doesn't want to work hard for achievements. It seems like you hope that NASL is a quick and easy way to get money, and doesn't require competing against top Koreans, unlike GSL. Moving to SK makes no sense for two reasons: 1) there's only GSL there, while western esports have so much more ways to prove yourself and make money out of it 2) North Korea These are the main reasons you don't see a lot of progamers or teams moving to SK. Would be a great practice experience but moving to a different country only to compete in GSL is ridicolous. If you fail to qualify (which is totally possible even if you are the best player in the world) there won't be a concrete meaning to be there. Look at Ret for example who had to move back to Europe or look at some players in code A who are much worse than some who are not even qualified. It just doesn't make much sense.
I didn't say that you had to compete or do well in the GSL. And yes, you will likely make more money in NA/EU tournaments than GSL. But it makes no sense to complain about Koreans, if you're afraid that they will hurt your ability to earn money from NA/EU tournaments.
At the end of the day, people who take the risks and train harder should be rewarded, not those who seek the easy road.
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On March 17 2011 09:14 Bobster wrote:Fenix, Catz and Moonglade am cry.
Fenix and Catz would be NA, I was including both Americas under NA but didn't think it needed specified. Change Korea to Asia and Moonglade would fall under that.
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On March 17 2011 08:28 MYM.ClouD wrote:
I give up at trying to explain hard work alone isn't going to take western players on par with koreans unless they go live and practice there. I wouldn't mind having a second GSL but remember, it would become a korean event and not a western event anymore. There's just too much difference, they don't speak english, don't interact with any foreign top player, have a structure that makes it possible for them to have the absolute best possible practice you can get without having the need to look outside their own country and speak with other players that are not koreans. Korean and western esports in Starcraft have always been divided and if you take them in the same place one succumbs to the other, they don't mix.
I agree, Korean and Western esports scene will not mix.
But that's only because the Western esports scene is lacking behind by so much and has been since the dawn of time (of esports), which leads me to believe that, unless something drastically happens, things will not change in the future. In Starcraft 2, there is already a big gap in skill between Korean and Western players, and if something doesn't happen soon, it will only get bigger and bigger.
Yes, Koreans have far superior practise conditions, which is the main reason for their success. However, I do not know why westerners have not been mimicking this (on a broad scale, I mean).
Anyways, with the Korean scene meddling in western tournaments, we'll probably see plenty of players that we hold dear falling out of the scene. But that'll only make the heros that'll emerge even greater. Koreans set up the levling rule high, and it's time for westerners to step up to it.
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On March 17 2011 09:16 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 09:10 Techno wrote:
Invite the best.
It's our only chance to ever beat them. Lol in that case it would be 45 koreans and 5 foreigners. Yeah I am pretty sure the 5 have a very high chance of beating them then.
Losing to Koreans is healthy because it would force Foreigners to get on their level. Afterwards, it wouldn't be lopsided. There's no point in having these huge tournaments restricted only to foreigners because e-sports won't progress without motivation/]forceful circumstances.
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On March 17 2011 09:17 Ikuu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 09:14 Bobster wrote:On March 17 2011 09:08 Ikuu wrote:
20 NA 15 Euros 15 Koreans, there you go. Fenix, Catz and Moonglade am cry. Fenix and Catz would be NA, I was including both Americas under NA but didn't think it needed specified. Change Korea to Asia and Moonglade would fall under that.
I was being facetious. 
Seriously though, I think it's very tough to make an argument for a specific distribution.
20/15/15
20/20/10
17/17/16
18/24/8
All valid choices.
On March 17 2011 09:16 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 09:10 Techno wrote:
Invite the best.
It's our only chance to ever beat them. Lol in that case it would be 45 koreans and 5 foreigners. Yeah I am pretty sure the 5 have a very high chance of beating them then.
There haven't even been 45 Korean applicants yet. There are 18 as of this moment, just fyi.
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I say wait and see for the first season and if the koreans dominate all 3 prize pools we have simply have to ban them in a friendly way or pick "lesser" players in a terms that they participate with foreingers such as cella!! I honestly wish Cella was in the NASL hes a great bridge between the Korean scene and Foreigner scene.
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On March 17 2011 09:17 dookudooku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 09:05 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 17 2011 08:57 dookudooku wrote:
MYM.Cloud,
You say that it's imposible to get the same quality of play on the European servers. But have you considered the GomTV house then?
It sounds like what you're really saying is:
1) I don't want to relocate to Korea to improve my game, to get it to the same level as the top Koreans.
2) I want to exclude top Koreans from NASL because there's no way I can compete with them unless I relocate to Korea.
Serious question:
If the community contributed enough money for you to buy a round-trip ticket to Korea and live in the GomTV house, would you do it?
If yes, then I have mad respect for you. If no, then complaining about Koreans is just makes you look like someone who doesn't want to work hard for achievements. It seems like you hope that NASL is a quick and easy way to get money, and doesn't require competing against top Koreans, unlike GSL. Moving to SK makes no sense for two reasons: 1) there's only GSL there, while western esports have so much more ways to prove yourself and make money out of it 2) North Korea These are the main reasons you don't see a lot of progamers or teams moving to SK. Would be a great practice experience but moving to a different country only to compete in GSL is ridicolous. If you fail to qualify (which is totally possible even if you are the best player in the world) there won't be a concrete meaning to be there. Look at Ret for example who had to move back to Europe or look at some players in code A who are much worse than some who are not even qualified. It just doesn't make much sense. But it makes no sense to complain about Koreans, if you're afraid that they will hurt your ability to earn money from NA/EU tournaments.
Nope, that does make sense, but it is egoistic.
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On March 17 2011 09:18 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 09:16 Redox wrote:On March 17 2011 09:10 Techno wrote:
Invite the best.
It's our only chance to ever beat them. Lol in that case it would be 45 koreans and 5 foreigners. Yeah I am pretty sure the 5 have a very high chance of beating them then. Losing to Koreans is healthy because it would force Foreigners to get on their level. Afterwards, it wouldn't be lopsided. There's no point in having these huge tournaments restricted only to foreigners because e-sports won't progress without motivation/]forceful circumstances.
Getting destroyed by Koreans in a tournament isn't going to magically make players improve. The only way that is going to happen is in a very specific practice environment such as the one that Korean player houses have, and that method and intensity of training is next to impossible to achieve outside of Korea because of many factors.
Also, I agree with Daigomi's points.
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On March 17 2011 09:11 MYM.ClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 09:07 baoluvboa wrote:On March 17 2011 09:05 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 17 2011 08:57 dookudooku wrote:
MYM.Cloud,
You say that it's imposible to get the same quality of play on the European servers. But have you considered the GomTV house then?
It sounds like what you're really saying is:
1) I don't want to relocate to Korea to improve my game, to get it to the same level as the top Koreans.
2) I want to exclude top Koreans from NASL because there's no way I can compete with them unless I relocate to Korea.
Serious question:
If the community contributed enough money for you to buy a round-trip ticket to Korea and live in the GomTV house, would you do it?
If yes, then I have mad respect for you. If no, then complaining about Koreans is just makes you look like someone who doesn't want to work hard for achievements. It seems like you hope that NASL is a quick and easy way to get money, and doesn't require competing against top Koreans, unlike GSL. Moving to SK makes no sense for two reasons: 1) there's only GSL there, while western esports have so much more ways to prove yourself and make money out of it 2) North Korea These are the main reasons you don't see a lot of progamers or teams moving to SK. Would be a great practice experience but moving to a different country only to compete in GSL is ridicolous. If you fail to qualify (which is totally possible even if you are the best player in the world) there won't be a concrete meaning to be there. Look at Ret for example who had to move back to Europe or look at some players in code A who are much worse than some who are not even qualified. It just doesn't make much sense. Such is the risk of being in a competitive yet minor clique of business. You just admitted yourself, there is a way to improve and play with the best of the best but it comes with a high risk. Why punish these Korean players who are undertaking that risks to get better and be competitive when you aren't willing to? They are not moving to a different country with the impossibility to speak with anyone cause no one knows english. It's totally different.
Not a great argument. You'll still be playing SC2, a game that transcends language barriers. You think all the players living in Europe's best soccer leagues don't have language barriers also?
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EPT
