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bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
If anything i would think top competitors would be excited to be put up against the best in the world to try and prove that Koreans don't own white dudes.. Whatever NASL do i am sure will be based on community feedback.. Judging from everyone's responses there should be at least some Korean representation at NASL; i would personally like to invite the _best_ players regardless of region, but that is just my opinion.. | ||
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dookudooku
255 Posts
You say that it's imposible to get the same quality of play on the European servers. But have you considered the GomTV house then? It sounds like what you're really saying is: 1) I don't want to relocate to Korea to improve my game, to get it to the same level as the top Koreans. 2) I want to exclude top Koreans from NASL because there's no way I can compete with them unless I relocate to Korea. Serious question: If the community contributed enough money for you to buy a round-trip ticket to Korea and live in the GomTV house, would you do it? Would your team pay for the trip to Korea? If you do that, then I have mad respect for you. If no, then complaining about Koreans is just makes you look like someone who doesn't want to work hard for anything. It seems like you hope that NASL is a quick and easy way to get money, and doesn't require competing against top Koreans, unlike GSL. TLDR: If you complain about Koreans being too good for NASL, but at the same time prefer playing in a non-Korean NASL over GSL, then you are spoiled. | ||
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AdahnSC
United States376 Posts
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Consummate
Australia191 Posts
It would be unfair to only invite Code A players and shaft the Code S, but at the same time the Code S players will probably dominate, but as a spectator, all I care about is watching high quality games, I'm not one of those "wahhh a Korean winning a non-Korean tournament" | ||
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kaileah
171 Posts
On March 17 2011 08:53 MYM.ClouD wrote: First I don't complain, I am stating a truth that got just proven by the last big event where we had the very top european/american players and some korean low level pros. I also didn't say they have to be segregated, I am just saying korean esport has always been an elitist community with no real possibility to interact since a decade ago. And yet i do see them freely giving interviews through a translator to the english speaking community quite frequently. They even allow artosis into their houses with a video camera to record them and their interviews. Back in brood war, lilsusie (god bless her) got hold of a lot of pro players and got them to answer some questions. NeverGG is doing a project to show appreciation to brood war players and the players are responding back with videos and pictures / interviews. Savior was also very friendly to a ton of western players (i remember pics of him and some players like incontrol hanging out) and fans. They do respond to the west and don't hold "elitist" attitudes. Its just western players with an inferiority complex. | ||
Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
On March 17 2011 08:28 MYM.ClouD wrote: I give up at trying to explain hard work alone isn't going to take western players on par with koreans unless they go live and practice there. I wouldn't mind having a second GSL but remember, it would become a korean event and not a western event anymore. There's just too much difference, they don't speak english, don't interact with any foreign top player, have a structure that makes it possible for them to have the absolute best possible practice you can get without having the need to look outside their own country and speak with other players that are not koreans. Korean and western esports in Starcraft have always been divided and if you take them in the same place one succumbs to the other, they don't mix. I agree that purely inviting the "best" players right now would be shooting the foreign scene in the foot. If you have 35 Koreans vs 15 top Non-Koreans, the Koreans are going to go home with 90% of the prize money every season, basically funnelling that money out of the international SC2 scene. By having a massive tournament like this in the foreign scene, foreigners have an incentive to set-up professional practise regimes similar to those of Koreans. This will not happen if Koreans completely dominate and take all the money out of the international scene. However, the alternative of not inviting any Koreans is just as bad. When foreigners do not compete with Koreans, they just need to practise enough to beat the best other foreigners. This might eventually lead to pro-houses and practice regimes, but it will take a while. For foreigners to quickly catch-up with the Koreans, they have to compete with the Koreans as often as possible. If players know that someone like MVP is participating, they know that they will have to beat him at some point to win the tournament so they will have an immediate motivation to rival his practise regime (which means quality and quantity of practise). Someone else made this point regarding Age of Empires. The Korean threat can be mitigated by inviting a relatively small number of Koreans (lets say 8). 35 Koreans vs 15 Non is heavily favoured for the Koreans, but if you have 8 Koreans vs 42 Non, I very much doubt that the Koreans will win everything, especially after a few seasons. The very top foreigners can compete with the Koreans, and the game is just not predictable enough to say that foreigners are guaranteed to win everything. To me, a compromise is the ideal solution. Don't invite only players based 100% on who is the best in the world. As Strelok said in his interview, we have the GSL, and personally I have no interest in watching a lower budget GSL. What I would like to see is a truly global tournament with the best players from the different regions competing in a proper league, not some single-weekend tournament. I want to be able to follow foreigners' improvements over a period of time and see how they compete with Koreans. I also want to see foreigners being given the time to practise properly and design specific builds for specific opponents, something that will allow them to improve much more quickly. TLDR: Invite some Koreans (a reasonable amount, like 8) so that there's ample representation and competition but not enough that they will completely dominate and take over the tournament. | ||
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baoluvboa
743 Posts
On March 17 2011 08:59 kaileah wrote: And yet i do see them freely giving interviews through a translator to the english speaking community quite frequently. They even allow artosis into their houses with a video camera to record them and their interviews. Back in brood war, lilsusie (god bless her) got hold of a lot of pro players and got them to answer some questions. NeverGG is doing a project to show appreciation to brood war players and the players are responding back with videos and pictures / interviews. Savior was also very friendly to a ton of western players (i remember pics of him and some players like incontrol hanging out) and fans. They do respond to the west and didn't hold "elitist" attitudes. Its just western players with an inferiority complex. Its funny that some players are talking about isolationism on a site like teamliquid where we focus on international scene discussion so much and actively promote it through TSL3. Not sure what their plans are but surely they know they will lose some fans over it yet still continue to post. | ||
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KoshkaTV
United States430 Posts
On March 17 2011 08:57 dookudooku wrote: MYM.Cloud, You say that it's imposible to get the same quality of play on the European servers. But have you considered the GomTV house then? It sounds like what you're really saying is: 1) I don't want to relocate to Korea to improve my game, to get it to the same level as the top Koreans. 2) I want to exclude top Koreans from NASL because there's no way I can compete with them unless I relocate to Korea. Serious question: If the community contributed enough money for you to buy a round-trip ticket to Korea and live in the GomTV house, would you do it? If yes, then I have mad respect for you. If no, then complaining about Koreans is just makes you look like someone who doesn't want to work hard for achievements. It seems like you hope that NASL is a quick and easy way to get money, and doesn't require competing against top Koreans, unlike GSL. nail on head..... I wonder what his answer will be, but I agree 100%... it's telling :D | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On March 17 2011 08:53 MYM.ClouD wrote: First I don't complain, I am stating a truth that got just proven by the last big event where we had the very top european/american players and some korean low level pros. I also didn't say they have to be segregated, I am just saying korean esport has always been an elitist community with no real possibility to interact since a decade ago. Yet they have been open to having foreign players in the GSL and are showing interest in the NASL. They are showing effort to mixing the scenes together. Denying that would only help segregate the scenes more. | ||
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Kazeyonoma
United States2912 Posts
On March 17 2011 08:53 MYM.ClouD wrote: First I don't complain, I am stating a truth that got just proven by the last big event where we had the very top european/american players and some korean low level pros. I also didn't say they have to be segregated, I am just saying korean esport has always been an elitist community with no real possibility to interact since a decade ago. I don't know what's good or what's better but the moment you allow all top koreans then it's just them, and I don't think western progamers are willing to move to korea and play months there just to get invited to NASL. SCBW korean leagues != sc2 korean leagues? scbw was dominated by kespa and their iron grip over the entire e-sports league, gom and the GSL have been NOTHING but OPEN to foreigners, giving them a foreigner house, 4 free seeds into code A, and an open qualifying tournament that ANYONE who can get to the offline qualifiers are free to participate in. yeah yeah you can't travel to korea, that doesn't mean they aren't trying to help the foreign seen as much as possible, hell they have english casting just for the foreign scene. Stop kidding yourself and treating korea like some evil bully that left us out in bw so now we're gonna leave them out in sc2. it's not even the same thing or organizations running them. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On March 17 2011 09:00 Daigomi wrote: I agree that purely inviting the "best" players right now would be shooting the foreign scene in the foot. If you have 35 Koreans vs 15 top Non-Koreans, the Koreans are going to go home with 90% of the prize money every season, basically funnelling that money out of the international SC2 scene. By having a massive tournament like this in the foreign scene, foreigners have an incentive to set-up professional practise regimes similar to those of Koreans. This will not happen if Koreans completely dominate and take all the money out of the international scene. However, the alternative of not inviting any Koreans is just as bad. When foreigners do not compete with Koreans, they just need to practise enough to beat the best other foreigners. This might eventually lead to pro-houses and practice regimes, but it will take a while. For foreigners to quickly catch-up with the Koreans, they have to compete with the Koreans as often as possible. If players know that someone like MVP is participating, they know that they will have to beat him at some point to win the tournament so they will have an immediate motivation to rival his practise regime (which means quality and quantity of practise). Someone else made this point regarding Age of Empires. The Korean threat can be mitigated by inviting a relatively small number of Koreans (lets say 8). 35 Koreans vs 15 Non is heavily favoured for the Koreans, but if you have 8 Koreans vs 42 Non, I very much doubt that the Koreans will win everything, especially after a few seasons. The very top foreigners can compete with the Koreans, and the game is just not predictable enough to say that foreigners are guaranteed to win everything. To me, a compromise is the ideal solution. Don't invite only players based 100% on who is the best in the world. As Strelok said in his interview, we have the GSL, and personally I have no interest in watching a lower budget GSL. What I would like to see is a truly global tournament with the best players from the different regions competing in a proper league, not some single-weekend tournament. I want to be able to follow foreigners' improvements over a period of time and see how they compete with Koreans. I also want to see foreigners being given the time to practise properly and design specific builds for specific opponents, something that will allow them to improve much more quickly. TLDR: Invite some Koreans (a reasonable amount, like 8) so that there's ample representation and competition but not enough that they will completely dominate and take over the tournament. Daigomi best post I have read so far. Just my opinion. | ||
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
So it's up to the organizers of the NASL for what they want to do, but that's the bottom line. You can't invite a bunch of top Koreans and expect it to still be a majorly foreigner league - because it won't be. I'm not saying whether it's good or bad to have Koreans participating, there's obviously both pros and cons, but my main point is that having a large amount of good Korean players participate is going to tone down the focus on foreigners a ton. Whether or not that's what the NASL wants to do (having a global league including Koreans as well as players from everywhere else is a very exciting idea too) is up to them, but that's just how it is going to be. | ||
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Looky
United States1608 Posts
i say a good amount of koreans. like 10-15 and about 40 or so foreigners. the edge goes to the foreigners since there playing here and 4x as many. i saw july apply, they better pick one of the best zergs in the world or not really a legitimate tournament. | ||
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JBrown08
Canada306 Posts
lol, someone really needs to invent a sarcasm font for the internet  | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
On March 17 2011 08:57 dookudooku wrote: MYM.Cloud, You say that it's imposible to get the same quality of play on the European servers. But have you considered the GomTV house then? It sounds like what you're really saying is: 1) I don't want to relocate to Korea to improve my game, to get it to the same level as the top Koreans. 2) I want to exclude top Koreans from NASL because there's no way I can compete with them unless I relocate to Korea. Serious question: If the community contributed enough money for you to buy a round-trip ticket to Korea and live in the GomTV house, would you do it? If yes, then I have mad respect for you. If no, then complaining about Koreans is just makes you look like someone who doesn't want to work hard for achievements. It seems like you hope that NASL is a quick and easy way to get money, and doesn't require competing against top Koreans, unlike GSL. Moving to SK makes no sense for two reasons: 1) there's only GSL there, while western esports have so much more ways to prove yourself and make money out of it 2) North Korea These are the main reasons you don't see a lot of progamers or teams moving to SK. Would be a great practice experience but moving to a different country only to compete in GSL is ridicolous. If you fail to qualify (which is totally possible even if you are the best player in the world) there won't be a concrete meaning to be there. Look at Ret for example who had to move back to Europe or look at some players in code A who are much worse than some who are not even qualified. It just doesn't make much sense. | ||
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legatus legionis
Netherlands559 Posts
 . I don't care and I think they should do it as they see fit and then I'll see how enjoyable it is. A cool observation to make, when divisions came out everyone cried for a global ladder even if you would see you are terrible because you are 14000th in the world. Isn't that the exact opposite pro's in favor of segregation are doing? Now to give some understanding, if it turns out the pro's become 2000th, then they aren't really pro's anymore and if they don't have enough opportunity to support their training, they might not be able to sustain themselves and so they stop. But it would be better for the skill pool and competition itself, very real and rough, survival of the fittest if you will. It sounds excellent but would the spectators agree? On some level I can totally understand why part feels foreigner only would be the best viewing experience but on the other hand more diverse player pool could be good too, maybe higher level games are the most fun, who knows. Ultimately it's perfectly legit to exclude korea and even europe, there's nothing wrong with limiting a competition to a national scale. I know some of you hate these comparisons but almost every soccer league does it. I do feel it would be a better way to develop on a national scale. You can always throw in a global season or a global tourney to match up or paralel a more global league beside it. What I will judge most won't be the inclusion or exclusion of koreans but the league as a whole with a big part in the production value. After iNcontrol has been hyping it up so much I expect nothing short of something as spectacular as a space shuttle launch! | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
On March 17 2011 09:00 Daigomi wrote: I agree that purely inviting the "best" players right now would be shooting the foreign scene in the foot. If you have 35 Koreans vs 15 top Non-Koreans, the Koreans are going to go home with 90% of the prize money every season, basically funnelling that money out of the international SC2 scene. By having a massive tournament like this in the foreign scene, foreigners have an incentive to set-up professional practise regimes similar to those of Koreans. This will not happen if Koreans completely dominate and take all the money out of the international scene. However, the alternative of not inviting any Koreans is just as bad. When foreigners do not compete with Koreans, they just need to practise enough to beat the best other foreigners. This might eventually lead to pro-houses and practice regimes, but it will take a while. For foreigners to quickly catch-up with the Koreans, they have to compete with the Koreans as often as possible. If players know that someone like MVP is participating, they know that they will have to beat him at some point to win the tournament so they will have an immediate motivation to rival his practise regime (which means quality and quantity of practise). Someone else made this point regarding Age of Empires. The Korean threat can be mitigated by inviting a relatively small number of Koreans (lets say 8). 35 Koreans vs 15 Non is heavily favoured for the Koreans, but if you have 8 Koreans vs 42 Non, I very much doubt that the Koreans will win everything, especially after a few seasons. The very top foreigners can compete with the Koreans, and the game is just not predictable enough to say that foreigners are guaranteed to win everything. To me, a compromise is the ideal solution. Don't invite only players based 100% on who is the best in the world. As Strelok said in his interview, we have the GSL, and personally I have no interest in watching a lower budget GSL. What I would like to see is a truly global tournament with the best players from the different regions competing in a proper league, not some single-weekend tournament. I want to be able to follow foreigners' improvements over a period of time and see how they compete with Koreans. I also want to see foreigners being given the time to practise properly and design specific builds for specific opponents, something that will allow them to improve much more quickly. TLDR: Invite some Koreans (a reasonable amount, like 8) so that there's ample representation and competition but not enough that they will completely dominate and take over the tournament. I agree with you, I think inviting a small number of koreans is the best choice. I am very excited about TSL for example. I am just very much against inviting all the best top korean players, which a lot of people are proposing in this thread. | ||
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baoluvboa
743 Posts
On March 17 2011 09:05 MYM.ClouD wrote: Moving to SK makes no sense for two reasons: 1) there's only GSL there, while western esports have so much more ways to prove yourself and make money out of it 2) North Korea These are the main reasons you don't see a lot of progamers or teams moving to SK. Would be a great practice experience but moving to a different country only to compete in GSL is ridicolous. If you fail to qualify (which is totally possible even if you are the best player in the world) there won't be a concrete meaning to be there. Look at Ret for example who had to move back to Europe or look at some players in code A who are much worse than some who are not even qualified. It just doesn't make much sense. Such is the risk of being in a competitive yet minor clique of business. You just admitted yourself, there is a way to improve and play with the best of the best but it comes with a high risk. Why punish these Korean players who are undertaking that risks to get better and be competitive when you aren't willing to? | ||
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dookudooku
255 Posts
On March 17 2011 09:01 jmbthirteen wrote: Yet they have been open to having foreign players in the GSL and are showing interest in the NASL. They are showing effort to mixing the scenes together. Denying that would only help segregate the scenes more. Exactly. Pros like Cloud have the option of living in Korea for very cheap, and improving their game so they can compete with Koreans. I'm sure most Europeans would rather stay in Europe than move to Korea, but success comes from hard work and personal sacrifice, not from complaining. | ||
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Ikuu
United Kingdom97 Posts
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