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On March 17 2011 14:29 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 12:49 adeezy wrote:
To avilo's post, it's reasonable to say that if you have a league without them, you won't catch them. It'll be a big fish in a small pond, gotta expand to the ocean if you really wan't to catch up. If you practice against better players you will get better, as simple as that.
Also gotta remember his bias if he get's to play in it. Be a man like tyler lol I never said koreans should not be allowed to play in it. I just was saying that it's ludicrous that some people want it to be 50 koreans as the entire tournament because "koreans are better." The reason everyone knows why koreans dominate SC1 is because they get paid to play on professional teams where they practice 12 hrs a day and can exchange knowledge right there with each other face to face. I'm just coming from the viewpoint that it does not help NA e-sports if you simply make NASL 50 korean players, as most likely they will win a large percentage of the time because they already have all of the resources and atmosphere to be able to train at a professional level in korea. Although I think foreigners can easily compete with koreans right now in SC2, so I'm sorta contradicting myself there, but that's not the point. The point is to build up the NA e-sports scene. Then we can get to a point where it's not "lulz it's gonna be a korean vs korean final again."
I think the main problem with the debate is that NASL is shooting for two goals that some people think are contradictory; that they should feature the best of the best, and that they should build Western E-sports.
I think most people think that there's no contradiction, call them free-marketers*. But other people think that there is a contradiction, call them protectionists.
And some people just want epic games.**
*I'm obviously with this group.
**And this group.
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sorry, refreshed double post, delete please :/
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These quotes from SlayerS_BoxeR in the TSL Interview post on the front page really makes this whole sentiment even more distasteful.
My girlfriend is reading TeamLiquid.net a lot ^^. I don’t get many chances to come across news because I’m spending so much time practicing, but she keeps me up to date with information and resources.
This is my first match in an international tournament since I started playing in GSL, so I’d like to do well. If Starcraft II wants to succeed outside Korea unlike SC1, we need more players to compete abroad, and we need more player exchanges.
I hope I can go abroad to play in person.
The players are the primary movers here, and if they can play quality games and achieve good tournament results abroad, I think it would be good for Korea’s image.
Occasionally I hear of things through PlayXP and other websites. Right now there’s a language barrier, and a lack of specialized personnel to gather information and systematically plan for foreign tournaments. More Koreans need to go abroad for foreign players to be directly influenced by them. Personally I would like more opportunities to compete in foreign tournaments.
So it's quite clear that the Korean pro's are itching to get out there and show their stuff on the global stage. I agree when BoxeR says that a move like this will help eSports grow internationally. But then his girlfriend comes to TL and notices an 85+ page thread, full of westerners debating whether they should be allowed to compete in the NASL.
How the fuck is he going to feel when she passes on the message? 
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Hey pokebunny btw i would say that in terms of interviews the westerners gave way more polite uninteresting interviews for the NASL applications so i dunno what your talking about.
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I think most of the people who are advocating bringing in the best of the best aren't advocating bringing 50 koreans in, they're just saying a small limit like 5 only, or outright saying no koreans, would be detrimental to the tournament because you aren't reflecting the best. As Tyler brought it up, you want good matches between great players, not mediocre players. You'd rather watch the #1 player beat the #50 player than the #26 player beat the #75 player. I think all of this separation way of thinking is awful for the growth of the game.
Go read the latest TSL interviews. better yet, here's the part I wanted to share. BoxeR gets it. It's why he's a legend, it's why people want him to win, it's why people shower him with love, it's why he transcends the game beyond just his wins/losses. He believes IN the game, not just in winning.
SlayerSBoxer:
If Starcraft II wants to succeed outside Korea unlike SC1, we need more players to compete abroad, and we need more player exchanges.
...
even though [Korean] gaming has lots of potential, it hasn’t quite succeeded to that level. The players are the primary movers here, and if they can play quality games and achieve good tournament results abroad, I think it would be good for Korea’s image.
....
Q: Do you think SC2 can succeed as an ESPORT outside Korea? What do you think has to happen for it to be a success internationally?
I’ll answer from a player’s perspective. As a player, you have to prepare as hard as you can for your games, and you have to tell a story and move the fans with that game. The more often you have entertaining games that draw interest, the more your base will grow. As the number of fans grows, the game can take place as its own unique culture, and then you can attract a sponsor that will help you expand the market rapidly. Entertain the fans and attract more fans to the game: that’s what the players must do.
edit: noticed someone posted the same interview above me with slightly different quotes, but again, it just shows BoxeR's greater understanding of what it takes to make esports grow.
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On March 17 2011 13:43 dtz wrote:http://www.youtube.com/user/hayprobtw ogs guys submitted their applications and i think they showed PLENTY of characters. Ensnare : " IdrA called me faggot. I.don't.forget MC : I am perfect. No weakness. Nada : People call me Genius Terran. Remember me. I think when they interact with the foreigners like Huk, we can see their less "formal" side and that makes it very endearing
Heres a fun question atleast 2 of these guys are solid contenders in gsl s class. Do you allow entry in NASL for them while they continue to play GSL? That way if they do well enough in the online portion of nasl they can then choose whether to forfeit gsl or the nasl matches for the easier cash?
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On March 17 2011 14:39 Dox wrote:These quotes from SlayerS_BoxeR in the TSL Interview post on the front page really makes this whole sentiment even more distasteful. Show nested quote +My girlfriend is reading TeamLiquid.net a lot ^^. I don’t get many chances to come across news because I’m spending so much time practicing, but she keeps me up to date with information and resources.
This is my first match in an international tournament since I started playing in GSL, so I’d like to do well. If Starcraft II wants to succeed outside Korea unlike SC1, we need more players to compete abroad, and we need more player exchanges. Show nested quote +The players are the primary movers here, and if they can play quality games and achieve good tournament results abroad, I think it would be good for Korea’s image. Show nested quote +Occasionally I hear of things through PlayXP and other websites. Right now there’s a language barrier, and a lack of specialized personnel to gather information and systematically plan for foreign tournaments. More Koreans need to go abroad for foreign players to be directly influenced by them. Personally I would like more opportunities to compete in foreign tournaments. So it's quite clear that the Korean pro's are itching to get out there and show their stuff on the global stage. I agree when BoxeR says that a move like this will help eSports grow internationally. But then his girlfriend comes to TL and notices an 85+ page thread, full of westerners debating whether they should be allowed to compete in the NASL. How the fuck is he going to feel when she passes on the message?
I agree its quite appaling when people say that they dont think koreans should be allowed to compete, its disgraceful actually since they are fine with europeans being allowed to compete. Thats just racist IMO
Although i would say the vocal majority in this thread is in favour of allowing Koreans to compete in the NASL. I say let them all play :D
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On March 17 2011 13:42 GhostFall wrote:
I feel like this Korean issue stems from the invite system for season 1 of NASL.
If there was a qualifier instead of an invite system, no one would bitch about Koreans. If there was one big national qualifier tournament, say the top 50 people are chosen from one large 5000 person national tournament scheduled in like California in a day. As horrible as this system would be, it is more fair than the invite system. If a Korean player flew in from Korean to the United States, sent in their video application, and then fought through to make top 50 in a qualifier, no one would be crying about Koreans. Everyone will admit that they earned their spot. Instead, because a korean players get auto invited because they are already in GSL, we get debates such as this one over whether or not to invite Korean players.
The invite system is the only part of the NASL I find to be pretty stupid. It's inclusive and elitist.
First, is conflict of Interest. No offense to InControl, I'm sure he is a great player, and on par with even korean players, but he doesn't have any major tournament wins. You can bet your ass though, with him being the "face" of the NASL, if he or any player in EG or any of his friends without any tournament results get chosen as one of the 50, there is going to be a shitstorm. There are going to be tons of conflict of interests accusations going around. There are going to be tons of "the only reason he got in was because he's friends with Incontrol."
Secondly, this invite system, to an outside observer, seems like one big circle jerk between the current top starcraft players and sponsorship money. Why should the top current players get a free pass to a 100k prize pool straight off the bat? Because they won a tournament 3 months ago? They should play to earn it, just like how GSL held 3 qualifier tournaments to establish Code S and Code A. That is the most fair system.
Granted, such a qualifier introduces a lot of randomness into the equation. An extremely worthy player, as an example lets say Liquid'Tyler might be unlucky and be unable to qualify. He is obviously one of the best players in America, but he failed the qualifier and couldn't get in. This shouldn't be a problem because if he really is one of the best players he will eventually qualify for the NASL. Maybe it'll take him 2 season, but it requires work and dedication. But you know, as players and spectators we are constantly asked to be patient and trust that good things will come. Shouldn't this be applied to players as well. If they really are good enough and deserving to get into the NASL, shouldn't they also be patient and wait until they finally manage to get top 8 in the 1024 person qualifier. St_Bomber is arguably one of the strongest terrans in the world, but he's been in Code B for 2 seasons now. But he'll keep working on it, because that is what is fair. This will also serve to make the NASL more competitive, and more competition = better quality of play from North American players.
Honestly, that 5000 player one weekend qualifier in California is such a terrible idea, but still so much better than the invite system. You could seed it, make it best of 5s, make it double elimination, to try to eliminate randomness. Maybe turn it into 5 large qualifiers throughout the nation and take the top 10 from both. If you really are one of the best players in NA, then you should be confident that you're a good enough to make top 10 or top 50 in such a large tournament. And it shows, that if you're from out of the country or some other part of America, and still travel to that qualifier, that you are serious about competing in Starcraft and that 100k prize pool.
But you know, it's probably way too late to change the system now. But Xeris and Incontrol should know, that it is because of their invite system you get issues like this.
I pretty much 100% agree with what you just said, about how they are going about setting up the NASL and that it is inclusive and elitist. If it were to be entirely legit, it in fact would be set up with a qualifer system, not auto invites based off of "who you know," or "past BW accomplishments."
You can see some elitism in how some "former top bw players" react to the TSL people that qualified. Some were saying people "deserved" to be in the tournament, when the cold hard truth is they did not qualify. Players like ONEcruncher were able to qualify because the way TSL is set up, EVERYONE has a chance to qualify, through getting enough top finishes, or by winning one of the tournaments leading up to the grand final tournament.
That is a good thing, a very good thing. If former "top bw pros" would have it their way, they'd all be auto-invited into tournaments based off of their brood war resume, just like they were a lot of times in beta. There are plenty right now that have little to no SC2 accomplishments under their belt, yet they are still hyped up massively and auto-invited into things regardless of their SC2 ability.
I think a large part of it is also because the people running these things realize how volatile SC2 is, and are trying to basically protect "known" players with these auto-invite systems instead of making qualifiers where anyone can win, not just people you know or want to get into the tournament.
It makes it incredibly hard for someone to break into this stuff, but relatively easy for others that "know the right people" to get into it.
But this is how it is right now because it's how they decided to run it. Instead of having qualifers where you prove ur merit and work ur way up, they are going to invite whoever they deem "worthy" or want in it. The NASL application videos reek of reality TV app videos, but guess what? Anyone that wants to even have a chance to participate had to make one, and hope that we get "ordained into this league."
On March 17 2011 14:39 Dox wrote:These quotes from SlayerS_BoxeR in the TSL Interview post on the front page really makes this whole sentiment even more distasteful. Show nested quote +My girlfriend is reading TeamLiquid.net a lot ^^. I don’t get many chances to come across news because I’m spending so much time practicing, but she keeps me up to date with information and resources.
This is my first match in an international tournament since I started playing in GSL, so I’d like to do well. If Starcraft II wants to succeed outside Korea unlike SC1, we need more players to compete abroad, and we need more player exchanges. Show nested quote +The players are the primary movers here, and if they can play quality games and achieve good tournament results abroad, I think it would be good for Korea’s image. Show nested quote +Occasionally I hear of things through PlayXP and other websites. Right now there’s a language barrier, and a lack of specialized personnel to gather information and systematically plan for foreign tournaments. More Koreans need to go abroad for foreign players to be directly influenced by them. Personally I would like more opportunities to compete in foreign tournaments. So it's quite clear that the Korean pro's are itching to get out there and show their stuff on the global stage. I agree when BoxeR says that a move like this will help eSports grow internationally. But then his girlfriend comes to TL and notices an 85+ page thread, full of westerners debating whether they should be allowed to compete in the NASL. How the fuck is he going to feel when she passes on the message?
Well, while I agree that that may be true that they want to show their stuff, let's be realistic here for a second. They saw this: $100,000. When ever have koreans previously taken such interest in our measly noob leagues? Yeah...
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On March 17 2011 14:43 abominare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 13:43 dtz wrote:http://www.youtube.com/user/hayprobtw ogs guys submitted their applications and i think they showed PLENTY of characters. Ensnare : " IdrA called me faggot. I.don't.forget MC : I am perfect. No weakness. Nada : People call me Genius Terran. Remember me. I think when they interact with the foreigners like Huk, we can see their less "formal" side and that makes it very endearing Heres a fun question atleast 2 of these guys are solid contenders in gsl s class. Do you allow entry in NASL for them while they continue to play GSL? That way if they do well enough in the online portion of nasl they can then choose whether to forfeit gsl or the nasl matches for the easier cash?
I dont think they would have to do that, considering the round of 16 happens over 1 weekend, i dont think it will interfere.
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On March 17 2011 14:43 abominare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 13:43 dtz wrote:http://www.youtube.com/user/hayprobtw ogs guys submitted their applications and i think they showed PLENTY of characters. Ensnare : " IdrA called me faggot. I.don't.forget MC : I am perfect. No weakness. Nada : People call me Genius Terran. Remember me. I think when they interact with the foreigners like Huk, we can see their less "formal" side and that makes it very endearing Heres a fun question atleast 2 of these guys are solid contenders in gsl s class. Do you allow entry in NASL for them while they continue to play GSL? That way if they do well enough in the online portion of nasl they can then choose whether to forfeit gsl or the nasl matches for the easier cash?
That's a choice the players themselves should have to face and make, not something an arbitrary decision made by the tournament conductors. That or work harder to time the ro16 apart from the GSL, it'd be the more responsible thing to do.
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What better way to get players involved in the community, than to exclude them from your events. Brilliant! I respect PokeBunny as a player, but his opinion on this topic is idiotic.
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On March 17 2011 14:45 Spicy Pepper wrote:
What better way to get players involved in the community, than to exclude them from your events. Brilliant! I respect PokeBunny as a player, but his opinion on this topic is idiotic.
How can you say his opinion is idiotic? He tactfully said what a hell of a lot of people are thinking. It's a very realistic opinion. Players can put out all the hunky dory nice interviews they want about how they suddenly love western e-sports and wanna be awesome...but when ever before this $100,000 figure did they really take interest in NA tournaments? Virtually never.
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On March 17 2011 14:44 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 13:42 GhostFall wrote:
I feel like this Korean issue stems from the invite system for season 1 of NASL.
If there was a qualifier instead of an invite system, no one would bitch about Koreans. If there was one big national qualifier tournament, say the top 50 people are chosen from one large 5000 person national tournament scheduled in like California in a day. As horrible as this system would be, it is more fair than the invite system. If a Korean player flew in from Korean to the United States, sent in their video application, and then fought through to make top 50 in a qualifier, no one would be crying about Koreans. Everyone will admit that they earned their spot. Instead, because a korean players get auto invited because they are already in GSL, we get debates such as this one over whether or not to invite Korean players.
The invite system is the only part of the NASL I find to be pretty stupid. It's inclusive and elitist.
First, is conflict of Interest. No offense to InControl, I'm sure he is a great player, and on par with even korean players, but he doesn't have any major tournament wins. You can bet your ass though, with him being the "face" of the NASL, if he or any player in EG or any of his friends without any tournament results get chosen as one of the 50, there is going to be a shitstorm. There are going to be tons of conflict of interests accusations going around. There are going to be tons of "the only reason he got in was because he's friends with Incontrol."
Secondly, this invite system, to an outside observer, seems like one big circle jerk between the current top starcraft players and sponsorship money. Why should the top current players get a free pass to a 100k prize pool straight off the bat? Because they won a tournament 3 months ago? They should play to earn it, just like how GSL held 3 qualifier tournaments to establish Code S and Code A. That is the most fair system.
Granted, such a qualifier introduces a lot of randomness into the equation. An extremely worthy player, as an example lets say Liquid'Tyler might be unlucky and be unable to qualify. He is obviously one of the best players in America, but he failed the qualifier and couldn't get in. This shouldn't be a problem because if he really is one of the best players he will eventually qualify for the NASL. Maybe it'll take him 2 season, but it requires work and dedication. But you know, as players and spectators we are constantly asked to be patient and trust that good things will come. Shouldn't this be applied to players as well. If they really are good enough and deserving to get into the NASL, shouldn't they also be patient and wait until they finally manage to get top 8 in the 1024 person qualifier. St_Bomber is arguably one of the strongest terrans in the world, but he's been in Code B for 2 seasons now. But he'll keep working on it, because that is what is fair. This will also serve to make the NASL more competitive, and more competition = better quality of play from North American players.
Honestly, that 5000 player one weekend qualifier in California is such a terrible idea, but still so much better than the invite system. You could seed it, make it best of 5s, make it double elimination, to try to eliminate randomness. Maybe turn it into 5 large qualifiers throughout the nation and take the top 10 from both. If you really are one of the best players in NA, then you should be confident that you're a good enough to make top 10 or top 50 in such a large tournament. And it shows, that if you're from out of the country or some other part of America, and still travel to that qualifier, that you are serious about competing in Starcraft and that 100k prize pool.
But you know, it's probably way too late to change the system now. But Xeris and Incontrol should know, that it is because of their invite system you get issues like this. I pretty much 100% agree with what you just said, about how they are going about setting up the NASL and that it is inclusive and elitist. If it were to be entirely legit, it in fact would be set up with a qualifer system, not auto invites based off of "who you know," or "past BW accomplishments." You can see some elitism in how some "former top bw players" react to the TSL people that qualified. Some were saying people "deserved" to be in the tournament, when the cold hard truth is they did not qualify. Players like ONEcruncher were able to qualify because the way TSL is set up, EVERYONE has a chance to qualify, through getting enough top finishes, or by winning one of the tournaments leading up to the grand final tournament. That is a good thing, a very good thing. If former "top bw pros" would have it their way, they'd all be auto-invited into tournaments based off of their brood war resume, just like they were a lot of times in beta. There are plenty right now that have little to no SC2 accomplishments under their belt, yet they are still hyped up massively and auto-invited into things regardless of their SC2 ability. I think a large part of it is also because the people running these things realize how volatile SC2 is, and are trying to basically protect "known" players with these auto-invite systems instead of making qualifiers where anyone can win, not just people you know or want to get into the tournament. It makes it incredibly hard for someone to break into this stuff, but relatively easy for others that "know the right people" to get into it. But this is how it is right now because it's how they decided to run it. Instead of having qualifers where you prove ur merit and work ur way up, they are going to invite whoever they deem "worthy" or want in it. The NASL application videos reek of reality TV app videos, but guess what? Anyone that wants to even have a chance to participate had to make one, and hope that we get "ordained into this league." Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 14:39 Dox wrote:These quotes from SlayerS_BoxeR in the TSL Interview post on the front page really makes this whole sentiment even more distasteful. My girlfriend is reading TeamLiquid.net a lot ^^. I don’t get many chances to come across news because I’m spending so much time practicing, but she keeps me up to date with information and resources.
This is my first match in an international tournament since I started playing in GSL, so I’d like to do well. If Starcraft II wants to succeed outside Korea unlike SC1, we need more players to compete abroad, and we need more player exchanges. I hope I can go abroad to play in person. The players are the primary movers here, and if they can play quality games and achieve good tournament results abroad, I think it would be good for Korea’s image. Occasionally I hear of things through PlayXP and other websites. Right now there’s a language barrier, and a lack of specialized personnel to gather information and systematically plan for foreign tournaments. More Koreans need to go abroad for foreign players to be directly influenced by them. Personally I would like more opportunities to compete in foreign tournaments. So it's quite clear that the Korean pro's are itching to get out there and show their stuff on the global stage. I agree when BoxeR says that a move like this will help eSports grow internationally. But then his girlfriend comes to TL and notices an 85+ page thread, full of westerners debating whether they should be allowed to compete in the NASL. How the fuck is he going to feel when she passes on the message? Well, while I agree that that may be true that they want to show their stuff, let's be realistic here for a second. They saw this: $100,000. When ever have koreans previously taken such interest in our measly noob leagues? Yeah...
Remember back a few months when there were platinum only tournaments just like diamond tournaments? This feels like the same thing where the NASL is the platinum tournament and the foreigners are the platinum players where as the diamond tournament is the GSL and the diamonds are koreans.
the nasl is saying along the same sentiment as the plat players / tourneys of: we want to protect our players from the stronger players because it'd be boring to watch a ton of diamond players play. we don't interact with the diamond players. i don't understand some of what they're doing. if we let them play, they're going to roll over us and it'd be really bad.
However, theres a huge difference. when a platinum tournament says "we have the best players in the world.", you can't justify that without inviting the diamond players. When you say "hundred thousand dollar prize pool, four hundred thousand by the end of the year", the diamond players are going to want in. Especially considering theres only one or two touranments for the diamond players and a ton going on around the world for the platinum players. if theres more viable tournaments appear, of course they're going to want to compete.
ask yourself whether platinum sub-par skill wise but more parity tournaments ever help e-sports. where the platinum players always will maintain that skill level. They complain about not wanting to play the amount of a diamond player and that they can't play as much because of other obligations (i go to harvard, im the ceo of microsoft, and i love starcraft. its not my fault i'm not good enough. its hard.). you, blur, cloud, pokebunny, etc would have gone crazy if that were the reality and probably call them lazy and to start making a serious practice regiment. thankfully it wasn't but thats becoming the reality for the korean players.
just switch around platinum players with foreigners and diamond players with koreans. note - idra, most of team liquid (excluding tyler), and moonglade count as a diamond player. and yet the nasl is saying "oh no, we like them. we'll blur the rules just for them and make an exception for them.".
much of this could be solved by the nasl easily. but they need to make stipulatins such as "you must be living in north america and europe". they could lower the prize pool down to like 25000, still plenty for the us / euros to get involved and maybe not so worth it for the koreans, but they definately need to stop claiming best in the world or best of anything. that's clearly not true.
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At first, I was hesitant to see that Korean players would be in the tournament, because I thought it was just strictly NA players. After reading SlayerSBoxer and some other comments though, the only way NA players are going to start training harder and taking the game more seriously is if they get stomped in their own tournament.
Some of the top tier NA players should start collaborating and getting houses or lofts set up for progaming and bring even more people with potential in.
I have a question, since I wasn't around during the BW days (minus playing UMS and Customs with friends). (In South Korea) When BW first came out, were there already teams/team houses setup to play it? Were the first tournaments with small random teams or groups of people, or were people playing solo at that time?
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He tactfully said what a hell of a lot of people are thinking.
Not according to the poll results. -.-
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So since my previous post where I quoted the BoxeR interview, several (stupid) people replied by saying things like, "Oh how convenient that the Koreans suddenly show an interest in our events when they see the $100,000 up for grabs."
1) Assuming we had ANYTHING like this in Brood War, do you REALLY think KeSPA would have allowed them to participate? Look at the shitfest that exploded when NaDa played the showmatch vs TLO last year.
2) Did you even read the goddamn post you were quoting? Here it is again. Read it slowly and carefully. I'll bold the part you need to focus on.
Occasionally I hear of things through PlayXP and other websites. Right now there’s a language barrier, and a lack of specialized personnel to gather information and systematically plan for foreign tournaments. More Koreans need to go abroad for foreign players to be directly influenced by them. Personally I would like more opportunities to compete in foreign tournaments.
EDIT: Someone else on this page worded it absolutely perfectly. He pointed out that you often see tournaments like "Gold League and Under!" with a specific skill-cap. This truly does feel like that. If you're too good, you're not allowed to compete.
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On March 17 2011 15:07 Dox wrote:So since my previous post where I quoted the BoxeR interview, several (stupid) people replied by saying things like, "Oh how convenient that the Koreans suddenly show an interest in our events when they see the $100,000 up for grabs." 1) Assuming we had ANYTHING like this in Brood War, do you REALLY think KeSPA would have allowed them to participate? Look at the shitfest that exploded when NaDa played the showmatch vs TLO last year. 2) Did you even read the goddamn post you were quoting? Here it is again. Read it slowly and carefully. I'll bold the part you need to focus on. Show nested quote +Occasionally I hear of things through PlayXP and other websites. Right now there’s a language barrier, and a lack of specialized personnel to gather information and systematically plan for foreign tournaments. More Koreans need to go abroad for foreign players to be directly influenced by them. Personally I would like more opportunities to compete in foreign tournaments.
It's just another fringe player trying to limit the competition... it's not like he would actually read logical explanations.
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On March 17 2011 15:04 Demonace34 wrote:
I have a question, since I wasn't around during the BW days (minus playing UMS and Customs with friends). (In South Korea) When BW first came out, were there already teams/team houses setup to play it? Were the first tournaments with small random teams or groups of people, or were people playing solo at that time?
From what I understand...
Before team-houses and stuff like that, the Korean "amateur" scene (there was no "pro" scene) was a lot like the current "pro" scene in the West, except with PC-bangs (LAN rooms) and Internet infrastructure that was excellent for the time (this was like a decade ago).
Enter SlayerSBoxer. He's The Emperor for starting, developing, and popularizing the "modern" Starcraft pro-scene in Korea, not because he was the first Bonjwa.
But that's all I remember. I'll try to dig up the Starcraft history thread on TL.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=154789
Doesn't say much about teamhouses or other stuff, though.
I'm not completely sure about this, but I think Boxer was instrumental for creating professional Starcraft teams and attracting sponsors to give Korean progamers wages. At the very least, I'm almost certain that he created two of the Starcraft teams currently existing, one of which is ACE.
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On March 17 2011 14:54 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 14:45 Spicy Pepper wrote:
What better way to get players involved in the community, than to exclude them from your events. Brilliant! I respect PokeBunny as a player, but his opinion on this topic is idiotic. How can you say his opinion is idiotic? He tactfully said what a hell of a lot of people are thinking. It's a very realistic opinion. Players can put out all the hunky dory nice interviews they want about how they suddenly love western e-sports and wanna be awesome...but when ever before this $100,000 figure did they really take interest in NA tournaments? Virtually never.
and the scared north americans can make up all the hunky dory "they don't have interest in us" when guys like boxer and FD clearly state in their TSL interviews that they are proud to represent their country and their foreign fans and hope to bring exciting and fun games to watch. Keep kidding yourself that this is about "koreans are here to steal our money." It's not YOUR money, it's whoever is good enough to win the tournament's money, and if you arbitrarily leave out great korean players than the final winner will hardly have deserved it. get fucking real. Artosis and IdrA may have backed you because you're living with them, but i don't see either of them bitching about allowing koreans in or not, because they know how it SHOULD be. go back to your obscure e-fame. the $$$ for the koreans is just enough incentive for them to travel out here if they make it far enough. Name 1 NA tournament that had the power to draw any Koreans who wanted to come play it. Ones with enough financial backing to make it production worthy, pride worthy, competition worthy.
Also as someone above pointed out, BoxeR says there just isn't enough communication being broadcasted to the korean pro gamers about stuff like this. Until the SotG broadcast where Xeris was yelled at for contacting NA/EU pro teams but NOT korean teams, there wasn't any korean teams making vids, then he retracts and says he'll contact them, and BOOM look, 3 pro teams from korea already submit videos. Coincidence? NA and West actually trying to contact korea and them responding! It's a fucking miracle, koreans WANT to play with us, and now we're trying to say "they didn't care about us before, fuck them?" grow up.
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