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On March 17 2011 16:10 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 16:03 Dox wrote:
avilo - Do you think China should be banned from the next Olympic games? Can't help but notice they outperformed everyone in 2008. The rest of the world needs to catch up. Read and comprehend. No one ever said anyone should be banned from this. I certainly did not. Anyways none of it matters, they decide who gets in. Qualifiers would have obviously been the most non-biased, best, and most logical option if you want the best players playing. Not to mention it would give everyone a chance to play by 100% earning their spot.
Yeah i can't argue with this at all, the entire voting and video thing scares me a bit. I really hope they aren't even taken into account, and that the videos are just for fun (don't use them in pre-game production either please).
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Australia8532 Posts
On March 17 2011 16:16 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 16:10 avilo wrote:On March 17 2011 16:03 Dox wrote:
avilo - Do you think China should be banned from the next Olympic games? Can't help but notice they outperformed everyone in 2008. The rest of the world needs to catch up. Read and comprehend. No one ever said anyone should be banned from this. I certainly did not. Anyways none of it matters, they decide who gets in. Qualifiers would have obviously been the most non-biased, best, and most logical option if you want the best players playing. Not to mention it would give everyone a chance to play by 100% earning their spot. Yeah i can't argue with this at all, the entire voting and video thing scares me a bit. I really hope they aren't even taken into account, and that the videos are just for fun (don't use them in pre-game production either please).
It's been said numerous times that the videos are not the sole consideration for participation in NASL it is a way of getting the community involved; i for one have spent loads of time in the NASL video thread watching some hilarious productions.. Personally, it has been an awesome idea;
Qualifiers vs Invitationals.. Some prefer it one way others like it another; they both have their place and at the end of the day an invitational is meant to target the best, audience drawing players from all over the world.. If you have a problem with invitationals then i've got some bad news for you when i think back to some huge tournaments..
Anyway; all of this conjecture is a bit annoying and i am anxiously waiting for NASL official position on player pool and Korean invites
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On March 17 2011 13:42 GhostFall wrote:
I feel like this Korean issue stems from the invite system for season 1 of NASL.
If there was a qualifier instead of an invite system, no one would bitch about Koreans. If there was one big national qualifier tournament, say the top 50 people are chosen from one large 5000 person national tournament scheduled in like California in a day. As horrible as this system would be, it is more fair than the invite system. If a Korean player flew in from Korean to the United States, sent in their video application, and then fought through to make top 50 in a qualifier, no one would be crying about Koreans. Everyone will admit that they earned their spot. Instead, because a korean players get auto invited because they are already in GSL, we get debates such as this one over whether or not to invite Korean players.
The invite system is the only part of the NASL I find to be pretty stupid. It's inclusive and elitist.
First, is conflict of Interest. No offense to InControl, I'm sure he is a great player, and on par with even korean players, but he doesn't have any major tournament wins. You can bet your ass though, with him being the "face" of the NASL, if he or any player in EG or any of his friends without any tournament results get chosen as one of the 50, there is going to be a shitstorm. There are going to be tons of conflict of interests accusations going around. There are going to be tons of "the only reason he got in was because he's friends with Incontrol."
Secondly, this invite system, to an outside observer, seems like one big circle jerk between the current top starcraft players and sponsorship money. Why should the top current players get a free pass to a 100k prize pool straight off the bat? Because they won a tournament 3 months ago? They should play to earn it, just like how GSL held 3 qualifier tournaments to establish Code S and Code A. That is the most fair system.
Granted, such a qualifier introduces a lot of randomness into the equation. An extremely worthy player, as an example lets say Liquid'Tyler might be unlucky and be unable to qualify. He is obviously one of the best players in America, but he failed the qualifier and couldn't get in. This shouldn't be a problem because if he really is one of the best players he will eventually qualify for the NASL. Maybe it'll take him 2 season, but it requires work and dedication. But you know, as players and spectators we are constantly asked to be patient and trust that good things will come. Shouldn't this be applied to players as well. If they really are good enough and deserving to get into the NASL, shouldn't they also be patient and wait until they finally manage to get top 8 in the 1024 person qualifier. St_Bomber is arguably one of the strongest terrans in the world, but he's been in Code B for 2 seasons now. But he'll keep working on it, because that is what is fair. This will also serve to make the NASL more competitive, and more competition = better quality of play from North American players.
Honestly, that 5000 player one weekend qualifier in California is such a terrible idea, but still so much better than the invite system. You could seed it, make it best of 5s, make it double elimination, to try to eliminate randomness. Maybe turn it into 5 large qualifiers throughout the nation and take the top 10 from both. If you really are one of the best players in NA, then you should be confident that you're a good enough to make top 10 or top 50 in such a large tournament. And it shows, that if you're from out of the country or some other part of America, and still travel to that qualifier, that you are serious about competing in Starcraft and that 100k prize pool.
But you know, it's probably way too late to change the system now. But Xeris and Incontrol should know, that it is because of their invite system you get issues like this.
Yep exactly what he said. The fact that that there are no qualifiers for season 1 is just a circle jerk as you put it and is extremely elitist
Xeris is linked to Fnatic somehow(not exactly sure how) will we see alot of fnatic players in the NASL considering xeris is making the decisions on who gets to be in the league you bet we will. Will we see Incontrol in the NASL with no impressive tournament results whatsoever, you bet we will, are there players that deserve it far more than these guys you bet there are. Would people rather see more top level Koreans then the whole Lineup fromm FNatic or Incontrol and the WHOLE EG squad (there are good players on both of these teams, but maybe 2 from each are actually deserving) yep we will. People wont take this league nearly as seriously with things like this going on. Will inviting top koreans legitimise this league slightly despite all this? yes i think it will it should be the best players , but i guarantee we will see less than deserving players in this league for the first season , Incontrol and Xeris's teammates and friends. Its kind of ridiculous.
Oh and im going to say it again LOVE the korea application videos they are better than 90% of the videos fromm NA /EU wich all seemed to be almost exactly the same lol
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Here's a thought: if NASL grows and thrives in its first couple seasons, they can start having more and more rounds live in LA. This would be a good thing anyway, as having games played live and locally is way more exciting to fans than an online tournament, but it would also make playing in NASL as a foreign player a bigger and bigger commitment. Imagine if the whole Ro16 had to fly out. This would mean committing to a trip to LA before you knew whether you would make it far and get one of the top prize payouts or get knocked out midway through. This would weed out the easy money seekers and naturally push the remaining Korean players to spend more time competing in the US.
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On March 17 2011 16:19 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 16:16 pezit wrote:On March 17 2011 16:10 avilo wrote:On March 17 2011 16:03 Dox wrote:
avilo - Do you think China should be banned from the next Olympic games? Can't help but notice they outperformed everyone in 2008. The rest of the world needs to catch up. Read and comprehend. No one ever said anyone should be banned from this. I certainly did not. Anyways none of it matters, they decide who gets in. Qualifiers would have obviously been the most non-biased, best, and most logical option if you want the best players playing. Not to mention it would give everyone a chance to play by 100% earning their spot. Yeah i can't argue with this at all, the entire voting and video thing scares me a bit. I really hope they aren't even taken into account, and that the videos are just for fun (don't use them in pre-game production either please). It's been said numerous times that the videos are not the sole consideration for participation in NASL it is a way of getting the community involved; i for one have spent loads of time in the NASL video thread watching some hilarious productions.. Personally, it has been an awesome idea; Qualifiers vs Invitationals.. Some prefer it one way others like it another; they both have their place and at the end of the day an invitational is meant to target the best, audience drawing players from all over the world.. If you have a problem with invitationals then i've got some bad news for you when i think back to some huge tournaments.. Anyway; all of this conjecture is a bit annoying and i am anxiously waiting for NASL official position on player pool and Korean invites
yes invitationals are meant to target the BEST and i really hope they do, but for instance like i said in my other post we are going to almost guaranteed see incontrol in this league , what are his accomplishments that allow him to be considered the best? is he even in the top 50 on the ladder in NA?
So no real tournament accomplishments and not even very high ranked on the ladder, yet i almost guarantee we will see him in the league (he said that he will be participating and that guest commentators will be casting when he is playing) other instances like this are bound to happen, an undeserving player from EG or Fnatic perhaps? for instance EG.Machine hes a great player but what are his results, he hasnt won anything since the beta (even then it was a small tournament) he placed 4th in the reddit invitational this year wich is decent but i think there are players with far better results in bigger tournaments that deserve a spot.
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On March 17 2011 16:20 solistus wrote:
Here's a thought: if NASL grows and thrives in its first couple seasons, they can start having more and more rounds live in LA. This would be a good thing anyway, as having games played live and locally is way more exciting to fans than an online tournament, but it would also make playing in NASL as a foreign player a bigger and bigger commitment. Imagine if the whole Ro16 had to fly out. This would mean committing to a trip to LA before you knew whether you would make it far and get one of the top prize payouts or get knocked out midway through. This would weed out the easy money seekers and naturally push the remaining Korean players to spend more time competing in the US.
The whole round of 16 does have to fly out btw. after the round of 16 it becomes an offline tournament and the round of 16 happens over 1 weekend
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Can you fucking retards who keep comparing NASL with the Olympics realise that in the Olympics, each country has a limit on the number of athletes it can bring to any one event?
So there is your fucking precedent to capping the number of south korean players to 5-10.
At any rate, I support limiting korean participation to 5-8 invites or so. Competition is good, domination is bad.
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On March 17 2011 16:20 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 13:42 GhostFall wrote:
I feel like this Korean issue stems from the invite system for season 1 of NASL.
If there was a qualifier instead of an invite system, no one would bitch about Koreans. If there was one big national qualifier tournament, say the top 50 people are chosen from one large 5000 person national tournament scheduled in like California in a day. As horrible as this system would be, it is more fair than the invite system. If a Korean player flew in from Korean to the United States, sent in their video application, and then fought through to make top 50 in a qualifier, no one would be crying about Koreans. Everyone will admit that they earned their spot. Instead, because a korean players get auto invited because they are already in GSL, we get debates such as this one over whether or not to invite Korean players.
The invite system is the only part of the NASL I find to be pretty stupid. It's inclusive and elitist.
First, is conflict of Interest. No offense to InControl, I'm sure he is a great player, and on par with even korean players, but he doesn't have any major tournament wins. You can bet your ass though, with him being the "face" of the NASL, if he or any player in EG or any of his friends without any tournament results get chosen as one of the 50, there is going to be a shitstorm. There are going to be tons of conflict of interests accusations going around. There are going to be tons of "the only reason he got in was because he's friends with Incontrol."
Secondly, this invite system, to an outside observer, seems like one big circle jerk between the current top starcraft players and sponsorship money. Why should the top current players get a free pass to a 100k prize pool straight off the bat? Because they won a tournament 3 months ago? They should play to earn it, just like how GSL held 3 qualifier tournaments to establish Code S and Code A. That is the most fair system.
Granted, such a qualifier introduces a lot of randomness into the equation. An extremely worthy player, as an example lets say Liquid'Tyler might be unlucky and be unable to qualify. He is obviously one of the best players in America, but he failed the qualifier and couldn't get in. This shouldn't be a problem because if he really is one of the best players he will eventually qualify for the NASL. Maybe it'll take him 2 season, but it requires work and dedication. But you know, as players and spectators we are constantly asked to be patient and trust that good things will come. Shouldn't this be applied to players as well. If they really are good enough and deserving to get into the NASL, shouldn't they also be patient and wait until they finally manage to get top 8 in the 1024 person qualifier. St_Bomber is arguably one of the strongest terrans in the world, but he's been in Code B for 2 seasons now. But he'll keep working on it, because that is what is fair. This will also serve to make the NASL more competitive, and more competition = better quality of play from North American players.
Honestly, that 5000 player one weekend qualifier in California is such a terrible idea, but still so much better than the invite system. You could seed it, make it best of 5s, make it double elimination, to try to eliminate randomness. Maybe turn it into 5 large qualifiers throughout the nation and take the top 10 from both. If you really are one of the best players in NA, then you should be confident that you're a good enough to make top 10 or top 50 in such a large tournament. And it shows, that if you're from out of the country or some other part of America, and still travel to that qualifier, that you are serious about competing in Starcraft and that 100k prize pool.
But you know, it's probably way too late to change the system now. But Xeris and Incontrol should know, that it is because of their invite system you get issues like this. Yep exactly what he said. The fact that that there are no qualifiers for season 1 is just a circle jerk as you put it and is extremely elitist Xeris is linked to Fnatic somehow(not exactly sure how) will we see alot of fnatic players in the NASL considering xeris is making the decisions on who gets to be in the league you bet we will. Will we see Incontrol in the NASL with no impressive tournament results whatsoever, you bet we will, are there players that deserve it far more than these guys you bet there are. Would people rather see more top level Koreans then the whole Lineup fromm FNatic or Incontrol and the WHOLE EG squad (there are good players on both of these teams, but maybe 2 from each are actually deserving) yep we will. People wont take this league nearly as seriously with things like this going on. Will inviting top koreans legitimise this league slightly despite all this? yes i think it will it should be the best players , but i guarantee we will see less than deserving players in this league for the first season , Incontrol and Xeris's teammates and friends. Its kind of ridiculous. Oh and im going to say it again LOVE the korea application videos they are better than 90% of the videos fromm NA /EU wich all seemed to be almost exactly the same lol
what is kind of ridiculous is these assumptions that you keep stating. If they want to take their league as professional and seriously they will not just invite their whole lineup from Fnatic or EG. There are great players from each team that have to be in the league, and i hope they get in. But to come out accusing two people, that are trying to be proffesional and run a league, of things they haven't done yet is ludicrous. This is exactly what we dont need, people stating false information and negative views on what MIGHT happen. I hope the better players get picked, and while i do agree with you that iNcontrol isnt deserving of a spot, i wouldnt be surprised to see him picked by his outstanding fanbase, broodwar background, and his personality. Im glad that you LOVE the korean apps better then the NA/EU ones. we are all entitled to our opinion but dont go calling them the same. they're definetly not. stop trolling, in every NASL thread that i read i see you picking them apart and yelling random negative assumptions on what they MIGHT do, try to be productive and help the community by emphasizing on what they need to improve and voice constructive criticism, and not whatever you keep doing. This is just my opinion.
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On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate.
i could not say it more eloquently. i don't want this post to die.
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On March 17 2011 16:31 Jouu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 16:20 cheesemaster wrote:On March 17 2011 13:42 GhostFall wrote:
I feel like this Korean issue stems from the invite system for season 1 of NASL.
If there was a qualifier instead of an invite system, no one would bitch about Koreans. If there was one big national qualifier tournament, say the top 50 people are chosen from one large 5000 person national tournament scheduled in like California in a day. As horrible as this system would be, it is more fair than the invite system. If a Korean player flew in from Korean to the United States, sent in their video application, and then fought through to make top 50 in a qualifier, no one would be crying about Koreans. Everyone will admit that they earned their spot. Instead, because a korean players get auto invited because they are already in GSL, we get debates such as this one over whether or not to invite Korean players.
The invite system is the only part of the NASL I find to be pretty stupid. It's inclusive and elitist.
First, is conflict of Interest. No offense to InControl, I'm sure he is a great player, and on par with even korean players, but he doesn't have any major tournament wins. You can bet your ass though, with him being the "face" of the NASL, if he or any player in EG or any of his friends without any tournament results get chosen as one of the 50, there is going to be a shitstorm. There are going to be tons of conflict of interests accusations going around. There are going to be tons of "the only reason he got in was because he's friends with Incontrol."
Secondly, this invite system, to an outside observer, seems like one big circle jerk between the current top starcraft players and sponsorship money. Why should the top current players get a free pass to a 100k prize pool straight off the bat? Because they won a tournament 3 months ago? They should play to earn it, just like how GSL held 3 qualifier tournaments to establish Code S and Code A. That is the most fair system.
Granted, such a qualifier introduces a lot of randomness into the equation. An extremely worthy player, as an example lets say Liquid'Tyler might be unlucky and be unable to qualify. He is obviously one of the best players in America, but he failed the qualifier and couldn't get in. This shouldn't be a problem because if he really is one of the best players he will eventually qualify for the NASL. Maybe it'll take him 2 season, but it requires work and dedication. But you know, as players and spectators we are constantly asked to be patient and trust that good things will come. Shouldn't this be applied to players as well. If they really are good enough and deserving to get into the NASL, shouldn't they also be patient and wait until they finally manage to get top 8 in the 1024 person qualifier. St_Bomber is arguably one of the strongest terrans in the world, but he's been in Code B for 2 seasons now. But he'll keep working on it, because that is what is fair. This will also serve to make the NASL more competitive, and more competition = better quality of play from North American players.
Honestly, that 5000 player one weekend qualifier in California is such a terrible idea, but still so much better than the invite system. You could seed it, make it best of 5s, make it double elimination, to try to eliminate randomness. Maybe turn it into 5 large qualifiers throughout the nation and take the top 10 from both. If you really are one of the best players in NA, then you should be confident that you're a good enough to make top 10 or top 50 in such a large tournament. And it shows, that if you're from out of the country or some other part of America, and still travel to that qualifier, that you are serious about competing in Starcraft and that 100k prize pool.
But you know, it's probably way too late to change the system now. But Xeris and Incontrol should know, that it is because of their invite system you get issues like this. Yep exactly what he said. The fact that that there are no qualifiers for season 1 is just a circle jerk as you put it and is extremely elitist Xeris is linked to Fnatic somehow(not exactly sure how) will we see alot of fnatic players in the NASL considering xeris is making the decisions on who gets to be in the league you bet we will. Will we see Incontrol in the NASL with no impressive tournament results whatsoever, you bet we will, are there players that deserve it far more than these guys you bet there are. Would people rather see more top level Koreans then the whole Lineup fromm FNatic or Incontrol and the WHOLE EG squad (there are good players on both of these teams, but maybe 2 from each are actually deserving) yep we will. People wont take this league nearly as seriously with things like this going on. Will inviting top koreans legitimise this league slightly despite all this? yes i think it will it should be the best players , but i guarantee we will see less than deserving players in this league for the first season , Incontrol and Xeris's teammates and friends. Its kind of ridiculous. Oh and im going to say it again LOVE the korea application videos they are better than 90% of the videos fromm NA /EU wich all seemed to be almost exactly the same lol what is kind of ridiculous is these assumptions that you keep stating. If they want to take their league as professional and seriously they will not just invite their whole lineup from Fnatic or EG. There are great players from each team that have to be in the league, and i hope they get in. But to come out accusing two people, that are trying to be proffesional and run a league, of things they haven't done yet is ludicrous. This is exactly what we dont need, people stating false information and negative views on what MIGHT happen. I hope the better players get picked, and while i do agree with you that iNcontrol isnt deserving of a spot, i wouldnt be surprised to see him picked by his outstanding fanbase, broodwar background, and his personality. Im glad that you LOVE the korean apps better then the NA/EU ones. we are all entitled to our opinion but dont go calling them the same. they're definetly not. stop trolling, in every NASL thread that i read i see you picking them apart and yelling random negative assumptions on what they MIGHT do, try to be productive and help the community by emphasizing on what they need to improve and voice constructive criticism, and not whatever you keep doing. This is just my opinion.
Well incontrol did mention something about seeing an epic game between Machine and someone else and how everyone wants to see that in the NASL so thats why i chose him, i agree we have no idea, im just saying that we probably will see quite a few players from each of those teams (as they have people working in the nasl its not a completly random assumption) I agree that we will just have to wait and see, and i am really skeptical about the NASL because i really want it to be the best NA has to offer against choice players from other parts of the world. Maybe its because its because i know the gsl players quite a bit better than alot of the other players who applied. but you have to admit out of the 100 or so applications of NA/EU there are quite a few bland ones thats not to say artosis , demuslim, tyler, moman, dimaga didnt have great NASL interviews that probably even exceed the very short korean ones. I was mainly pointing that out because of Pokebunny's comment about koreans being so bland or w/e he said.
Honestly i love watching starcraft tournaments and have followed what is happening in TSL3 extensively yet did not complain once about what they are doing with it, i just think alot of people have legitimate concerns about how they are going about the NASL and those need to be heard. If oppions werent voiced by the community the NASL would probably still have 1) a team limit 2) an open tournament were only 1 player made it into the round of 16 and 4 players got seeded into the next season (they have since changed it to 16) 3) a cap on the amount of koreans as they originally stated.
there are countless other positive changes based on community feedback, i am voicing my concerns out of concern for the league. I do agree though my attitude is a bit negative at times and i shouldnt make assumptions (the incontrol one isnt an assuumption he did say he was going to be in the league) and i wouldnt be suprised if we did see quite a few fnatic and EG players both teams are in contact with russ egmachine even thanked russ for the support in his interview. I just want all teams and all regions to get equal representation ( i know there will be more NA players so i dont mean it in that sense)
I apologize if ive offended anyone with my forward looking views / extreme pessimism but beleive me it is because i want this league to succeed by pointing out possible flaws leading up to this possibly great tournament.
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On March 17 2011 16:41 Deindar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate. i could not say it more eloquently. i don't want this post to die.
That seems like a pretty bullshit reason. What the hell does "love the game" even mean? Do you think anyone loves the game more than someone like Artosis? You really think that is the reason for the skill gap?
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On March 17 2011 16:50 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 16:41 Deindar wrote:On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate. i could not say it more eloquently. i don't want this post to die. That seems like a pretty bullshit reason. What the hell does "love the game" even mean? Do you think anyone loves the game more than someone like Artosis? You really think that is the reason for the skill gap?
they understand that in order to succeed in this game they need to practice as hard if not harder than their opponents, somehow that's not translating over to the western culture, but a lot of western players who are complaining about koreans entering the tournament somehow feel they deserve to win large sums of money without putting forth the same level of effort.
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On March 17 2011 16:48 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 16:31 Jouu wrote:On March 17 2011 16:20 cheesemaster wrote:On March 17 2011 13:42 GhostFall wrote:
I feel like this Korean issue stems from the invite system for season 1 of NASL.
If there was a qualifier instead of an invite system, no one would bitch about Koreans. If there was one big national qualifier tournament, say the top 50 people are chosen from one large 5000 person national tournament scheduled in like California in a day. As horrible as this system would be, it is more fair than the invite system. If a Korean player flew in from Korean to the United States, sent in their video application, and then fought through to make top 50 in a qualifier, no one would be crying about Koreans. Everyone will admit that they earned their spot. Instead, because a korean players get auto invited because they are already in GSL, we get debates such as this one over whether or not to invite Korean players.
The invite system is the only part of the NASL I find to be pretty stupid. It's inclusive and elitist.
First, is conflict of Interest. No offense to InControl, I'm sure he is a great player, and on par with even korean players, but he doesn't have any major tournament wins. You can bet your ass though, with him being the "face" of the NASL, if he or any player in EG or any of his friends without any tournament results get chosen as one of the 50, there is going to be a shitstorm. There are going to be tons of conflict of interests accusations going around. There are going to be tons of "the only reason he got in was because he's friends with Incontrol."
Secondly, this invite system, to an outside observer, seems like one big circle jerk between the current top starcraft players and sponsorship money. Why should the top current players get a free pass to a 100k prize pool straight off the bat? Because they won a tournament 3 months ago? They should play to earn it, just like how GSL held 3 qualifier tournaments to establish Code S and Code A. That is the most fair system.
Granted, such a qualifier introduces a lot of randomness into the equation. An extremely worthy player, as an example lets say Liquid'Tyler might be unlucky and be unable to qualify. He is obviously one of the best players in America, but he failed the qualifier and couldn't get in. This shouldn't be a problem because if he really is one of the best players he will eventually qualify for the NASL. Maybe it'll take him 2 season, but it requires work and dedication. But you know, as players and spectators we are constantly asked to be patient and trust that good things will come. Shouldn't this be applied to players as well. If they really are good enough and deserving to get into the NASL, shouldn't they also be patient and wait until they finally manage to get top 8 in the 1024 person qualifier. St_Bomber is arguably one of the strongest terrans in the world, but he's been in Code B for 2 seasons now. But he'll keep working on it, because that is what is fair. This will also serve to make the NASL more competitive, and more competition = better quality of play from North American players.
Honestly, that 5000 player one weekend qualifier in California is such a terrible idea, but still so much better than the invite system. You could seed it, make it best of 5s, make it double elimination, to try to eliminate randomness. Maybe turn it into 5 large qualifiers throughout the nation and take the top 10 from both. If you really are one of the best players in NA, then you should be confident that you're a good enough to make top 10 or top 50 in such a large tournament. And it shows, that if you're from out of the country or some other part of America, and still travel to that qualifier, that you are serious about competing in Starcraft and that 100k prize pool.
But you know, it's probably way too late to change the system now. But Xeris and Incontrol should know, that it is because of their invite system you get issues like this. Yep exactly what he said. The fact that that there are no qualifiers for season 1 is just a circle jerk as you put it and is extremely elitist Xeris is linked to Fnatic somehow(not exactly sure how) will we see alot of fnatic players in the NASL considering xeris is making the decisions on who gets to be in the league you bet we will. Will we see Incontrol in the NASL with no impressive tournament results whatsoever, you bet we will, are there players that deserve it far more than these guys you bet there are. Would people rather see more top level Koreans then the whole Lineup fromm FNatic or Incontrol and the WHOLE EG squad (there are good players on both of these teams, but maybe 2 from each are actually deserving) yep we will. People wont take this league nearly as seriously with things like this going on. Will inviting top koreans legitimise this league slightly despite all this? yes i think it will it should be the best players , but i guarantee we will see less than deserving players in this league for the first season , Incontrol and Xeris's teammates and friends. Its kind of ridiculous. Oh and im going to say it again LOVE the korea application videos they are better than 90% of the videos fromm NA /EU wich all seemed to be almost exactly the same lol what is kind of ridiculous is these assumptions that you keep stating. If they want to take their league as professional and seriously they will not just invite their whole lineup from Fnatic or EG. There are great players from each team that have to be in the league, and i hope they get in. But to come out accusing two people, that are trying to be proffesional and run a league, of things they haven't done yet is ludicrous. This is exactly what we dont need, people stating false information and negative views on what MIGHT happen. I hope the better players get picked, and while i do agree with you that iNcontrol isnt deserving of a spot, i wouldnt be surprised to see him picked by his outstanding fanbase, broodwar background, and his personality. Im glad that you LOVE the korean apps better then the NA/EU ones. we are all entitled to our opinion but dont go calling them the same. they're definetly not. stop trolling, in every NASL thread that i read i see you picking them apart and yelling random negative assumptions on what they MIGHT do, try to be productive and help the community by emphasizing on what they need to improve and voice constructive criticism, and not whatever you keep doing. This is just my opinion. Well incontrol did mention something about seeing an epic game between Machine and someone else and how everyone wants to see that in the NASL so thats why i chose him, i agree we have no idea, im just saying that we probably will see quite a few players from each of those teams (as they have people working in the nasl its not a completly random assumption) I agree that we will just have to wait and see, and i am really skeptical about the NASL because i really want it to be the best NA has to offer against choice players from other parts of the world. Maybe its because its because i know the gsl players quite a bit better than alot of the other players who applied. but you have to admit out of the 100 or so applications of NA/EU there are quite a few bland ones thats not to say artosis , demuslim, tyler, moman, dimaga didnt have great NASL interviews that probably even exceed the very short korean ones. I was mainly pointing that out because of Pokebunny's comment about koreans being so bland or w/e he said. Honestly i love watching starcraft tournaments and have followed what is happening in TSL3 extensively yet did not complain once about what they are doing with it, i just think alot of people have legitimate concerns about how they are going about the NASL and those need to be heard. If oppions werent voiced by the community the NASL would probably still have 1) a team limit 2) an open tournament were only 1 player made it into the round of 16 and 4 players got seeded into the next season (they have since changed it to 16) 3) a cap on the amount of koreans as they originally stated. there are countless other positive changes based on community feedback, i am voicing my concerns out of concern for the league. I do agree though my attitude is a bit negative at times and i shouldnt make assumptions (the incontrol one isnt an assuumption he did say he was going to be in the league) and i wouldnt be suprised if we did see quite a few fnatic and EG players both teams are in contact with russ egmachine even thanked russ for the support in his interview. I just want all teams and all regions to get equal representation ( i know there will be more NA players so i dont mean it in that sense) I apologize if ive offended anyone with my forward looking views / extreme pessimism but beleive me it is because i want this league to succeed by pointing out possible flaws leading up to this possibly great tournament.
Well, it is their tournament, they can invite whoever they want because their asses are on the line and they are doing all the work. Worst case scenario is that they invite people you think are "bad" and they get knocked out after the first season. I think everyone just needs to chill.
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On March 17 2011 16:54 zerglingsfolife wrote:
Well, it is their tournament, they can invite whoever they want because their asses are on the line and they are doing all the work. Worst case scenario is that they invite people you think are "bad" and they get knocked out after the first season. I think everyone just needs to chill.
Well, they are asking for input here...
No one's saying that they can't do whatever the hell they want, they could limit the tournament to everybody in Guatemala if they wanted to.
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On March 17 2011 16:54 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 16:48 cheesemaster wrote:On March 17 2011 16:31 Jouu wrote:On March 17 2011 16:20 cheesemaster wrote:On March 17 2011 13:42 GhostFall wrote:
I feel like this Korean issue stems from the invite system for season 1 of NASL.
If there was a qualifier instead of an invite system, no one would bitch about Koreans. If there was one big national qualifier tournament, say the top 50 people are chosen from one large 5000 person national tournament scheduled in like California in a day. As horrible as this system would be, it is more fair than the invite system. If a Korean player flew in from Korean to the United States, sent in their video application, and then fought through to make top 50 in a qualifier, no one would be crying about Koreans. Everyone will admit that they earned their spot. Instead, because a korean players get auto invited because they are already in GSL, we get debates such as this one over whether or not to invite Korean players.
The invite system is the only part of the NASL I find to be pretty stupid. It's inclusive and elitist.
First, is conflict of Interest. No offense to InControl, I'm sure he is a great player, and on par with even korean players, but he doesn't have any major tournament wins. You can bet your ass though, with him being the "face" of the NASL, if he or any player in EG or any of his friends without any tournament results get chosen as one of the 50, there is going to be a shitstorm. There are going to be tons of conflict of interests accusations going around. There are going to be tons of "the only reason he got in was because he's friends with Incontrol."
Secondly, this invite system, to an outside observer, seems like one big circle jerk between the current top starcraft players and sponsorship money. Why should the top current players get a free pass to a 100k prize pool straight off the bat? Because they won a tournament 3 months ago? They should play to earn it, just like how GSL held 3 qualifier tournaments to establish Code S and Code A. That is the most fair system.
Granted, such a qualifier introduces a lot of randomness into the equation. An extremely worthy player, as an example lets say Liquid'Tyler might be unlucky and be unable to qualify. He is obviously one of the best players in America, but he failed the qualifier and couldn't get in. This shouldn't be a problem because if he really is one of the best players he will eventually qualify for the NASL. Maybe it'll take him 2 season, but it requires work and dedication. But you know, as players and spectators we are constantly asked to be patient and trust that good things will come. Shouldn't this be applied to players as well. If they really are good enough and deserving to get into the NASL, shouldn't they also be patient and wait until they finally manage to get top 8 in the 1024 person qualifier. St_Bomber is arguably one of the strongest terrans in the world, but he's been in Code B for 2 seasons now. But he'll keep working on it, because that is what is fair. This will also serve to make the NASL more competitive, and more competition = better quality of play from North American players.
Honestly, that 5000 player one weekend qualifier in California is such a terrible idea, but still so much better than the invite system. You could seed it, make it best of 5s, make it double elimination, to try to eliminate randomness. Maybe turn it into 5 large qualifiers throughout the nation and take the top 10 from both. If you really are one of the best players in NA, then you should be confident that you're a good enough to make top 10 or top 50 in such a large tournament. And it shows, that if you're from out of the country or some other part of America, and still travel to that qualifier, that you are serious about competing in Starcraft and that 100k prize pool.
But you know, it's probably way too late to change the system now. But Xeris and Incontrol should know, that it is because of their invite system you get issues like this. Yep exactly what he said. The fact that that there are no qualifiers for season 1 is just a circle jerk as you put it and is extremely elitist Xeris is linked to Fnatic somehow(not exactly sure how) will we see alot of fnatic players in the NASL considering xeris is making the decisions on who gets to be in the league you bet we will. Will we see Incontrol in the NASL with no impressive tournament results whatsoever, you bet we will, are there players that deserve it far more than these guys you bet there are. Would people rather see more top level Koreans then the whole Lineup fromm FNatic or Incontrol and the WHOLE EG squad (there are good players on both of these teams, but maybe 2 from each are actually deserving) yep we will. People wont take this league nearly as seriously with things like this going on. Will inviting top koreans legitimise this league slightly despite all this? yes i think it will it should be the best players , but i guarantee we will see less than deserving players in this league for the first season , Incontrol and Xeris's teammates and friends. Its kind of ridiculous. Oh and im going to say it again LOVE the korea application videos they are better than 90% of the videos fromm NA /EU wich all seemed to be almost exactly the same lol what is kind of ridiculous is these assumptions that you keep stating. If they want to take their league as professional and seriously they will not just invite their whole lineup from Fnatic or EG. There are great players from each team that have to be in the league, and i hope they get in. But to come out accusing two people, that are trying to be proffesional and run a league, of things they haven't done yet is ludicrous. This is exactly what we dont need, people stating false information and negative views on what MIGHT happen. I hope the better players get picked, and while i do agree with you that iNcontrol isnt deserving of a spot, i wouldnt be surprised to see him picked by his outstanding fanbase, broodwar background, and his personality. Im glad that you LOVE the korean apps better then the NA/EU ones. we are all entitled to our opinion but dont go calling them the same. they're definetly not. stop trolling, in every NASL thread that i read i see you picking them apart and yelling random negative assumptions on what they MIGHT do, try to be productive and help the community by emphasizing on what they need to improve and voice constructive criticism, and not whatever you keep doing. This is just my opinion. Well incontrol did mention something about seeing an epic game between Machine and someone else and how everyone wants to see that in the NASL so thats why i chose him, i agree we have no idea, im just saying that we probably will see quite a few players from each of those teams (as they have people working in the nasl its not a completly random assumption) I agree that we will just have to wait and see, and i am really skeptical about the NASL because i really want it to be the best NA has to offer against choice players from other parts of the world. Maybe its because its because i know the gsl players quite a bit better than alot of the other players who applied. but you have to admit out of the 100 or so applications of NA/EU there are quite a few bland ones thats not to say artosis , demuslim, tyler, moman, dimaga didnt have great NASL interviews that probably even exceed the very short korean ones. I was mainly pointing that out because of Pokebunny's comment about koreans being so bland or w/e he said. Honestly i love watching starcraft tournaments and have followed what is happening in TSL3 extensively yet did not complain once about what they are doing with it, i just think alot of people have legitimate concerns about how they are going about the NASL and those need to be heard. If oppions werent voiced by the community the NASL would probably still have 1) a team limit 2) an open tournament were only 1 player made it into the round of 16 and 4 players got seeded into the next season (they have since changed it to 16) 3) a cap on the amount of koreans as they originally stated. there are countless other positive changes based on community feedback, i am voicing my concerns out of concern for the league. I do agree though my attitude is a bit negative at times and i shouldnt make assumptions (the incontrol one isnt an assuumption he did say he was going to be in the league) and i wouldnt be suprised if we did see quite a few fnatic and EG players both teams are in contact with russ egmachine even thanked russ for the support in his interview. I just want all teams and all regions to get equal representation ( i know there will be more NA players so i dont mean it in that sense) I apologize if ive offended anyone with my forward looking views / extreme pessimism but beleive me it is because i want this league to succeed by pointing out possible flaws leading up to this possibly great tournament. Well, it is their tournament, they can invite whoever they want because their asses are on the line and they are doing all the work. Worst case scenario is that they invite people you think are "bad" and they get knocked out after the first season. I think everyone just needs to chill.
"i think everyone just needs to chill" you sound like tyler 
yea ive said this in quite a few other posts that because of the fact that they changed the format to have 16 seeds from the open tournament replacing the bottom 16 we will eventually see the most deserving players in the league :D, i just hope its not to late by then as if the first few seasons dont do well there wont be anymore and if a bunch of people are pissed off about the invites then the seasons are less likely to do well, thats the reason i kind of dont agree with all invitees for the first season , its not going to please everyone. and if people only watch specific matches of the handful of players they like instead of following the league religiously it is less likely to do well.
EDIT:Whereas if it was a qualification format people are more likely to go "oh wow he did really well in the qualifers and took out some notable players i want to see what hes got" and watch a player unknown to them or one they took less interest in before.
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On March 17 2011 16:59 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 16:54 zerglingsfolife wrote:On March 17 2011 16:48 cheesemaster wrote:On March 17 2011 16:31 Jouu wrote:On March 17 2011 16:20 cheesemaster wrote:On March 17 2011 13:42 GhostFall wrote:
I feel like this Korean issue stems from the invite system for season 1 of NASL.
If there was a qualifier instead of an invite system, no one would bitch about Koreans. If there was one big national qualifier tournament, say the top 50 people are chosen from one large 5000 person national tournament scheduled in like California in a day. As horrible as this system would be, it is more fair than the invite system. If a Korean player flew in from Korean to the United States, sent in their video application, and then fought through to make top 50 in a qualifier, no one would be crying about Koreans. Everyone will admit that they earned their spot. Instead, because a korean players get auto invited because they are already in GSL, we get debates such as this one over whether or not to invite Korean players.
The invite system is the only part of the NASL I find to be pretty stupid. It's inclusive and elitist.
First, is conflict of Interest. No offense to InControl, I'm sure he is a great player, and on par with even korean players, but he doesn't have any major tournament wins. You can bet your ass though, with him being the "face" of the NASL, if he or any player in EG or any of his friends without any tournament results get chosen as one of the 50, there is going to be a shitstorm. There are going to be tons of conflict of interests accusations going around. There are going to be tons of "the only reason he got in was because he's friends with Incontrol."
Secondly, this invite system, to an outside observer, seems like one big circle jerk between the current top starcraft players and sponsorship money. Why should the top current players get a free pass to a 100k prize pool straight off the bat? Because they won a tournament 3 months ago? They should play to earn it, just like how GSL held 3 qualifier tournaments to establish Code S and Code A. That is the most fair system.
Granted, such a qualifier introduces a lot of randomness into the equation. An extremely worthy player, as an example lets say Liquid'Tyler might be unlucky and be unable to qualify. He is obviously one of the best players in America, but he failed the qualifier and couldn't get in. This shouldn't be a problem because if he really is one of the best players he will eventually qualify for the NASL. Maybe it'll take him 2 season, but it requires work and dedication. But you know, as players and spectators we are constantly asked to be patient and trust that good things will come. Shouldn't this be applied to players as well. If they really are good enough and deserving to get into the NASL, shouldn't they also be patient and wait until they finally manage to get top 8 in the 1024 person qualifier. St_Bomber is arguably one of the strongest terrans in the world, but he's been in Code B for 2 seasons now. But he'll keep working on it, because that is what is fair. This will also serve to make the NASL more competitive, and more competition = better quality of play from North American players.
Honestly, that 5000 player one weekend qualifier in California is such a terrible idea, but still so much better than the invite system. You could seed it, make it best of 5s, make it double elimination, to try to eliminate randomness. Maybe turn it into 5 large qualifiers throughout the nation and take the top 10 from both. If you really are one of the best players in NA, then you should be confident that you're a good enough to make top 10 or top 50 in such a large tournament. And it shows, that if you're from out of the country or some other part of America, and still travel to that qualifier, that you are serious about competing in Starcraft and that 100k prize pool.
But you know, it's probably way too late to change the system now. But Xeris and Incontrol should know, that it is because of their invite system you get issues like this. Yep exactly what he said. The fact that that there are no qualifiers for season 1 is just a circle jerk as you put it and is extremely elitist Xeris is linked to Fnatic somehow(not exactly sure how) will we see alot of fnatic players in the NASL considering xeris is making the decisions on who gets to be in the league you bet we will. Will we see Incontrol in the NASL with no impressive tournament results whatsoever, you bet we will, are there players that deserve it far more than these guys you bet there are. Would people rather see more top level Koreans then the whole Lineup fromm FNatic or Incontrol and the WHOLE EG squad (there are good players on both of these teams, but maybe 2 from each are actually deserving) yep we will. People wont take this league nearly as seriously with things like this going on. Will inviting top koreans legitimise this league slightly despite all this? yes i think it will it should be the best players , but i guarantee we will see less than deserving players in this league for the first season , Incontrol and Xeris's teammates and friends. Its kind of ridiculous. Oh and im going to say it again LOVE the korea application videos they are better than 90% of the videos fromm NA /EU wich all seemed to be almost exactly the same lol what is kind of ridiculous is these assumptions that you keep stating. If they want to take their league as professional and seriously they will not just invite their whole lineup from Fnatic or EG. There are great players from each team that have to be in the league, and i hope they get in. But to come out accusing two people, that are trying to be proffesional and run a league, of things they haven't done yet is ludicrous. This is exactly what we dont need, people stating false information and negative views on what MIGHT happen. I hope the better players get picked, and while i do agree with you that iNcontrol isnt deserving of a spot, i wouldnt be surprised to see him picked by his outstanding fanbase, broodwar background, and his personality. Im glad that you LOVE the korean apps better then the NA/EU ones. we are all entitled to our opinion but dont go calling them the same. they're definetly not. stop trolling, in every NASL thread that i read i see you picking them apart and yelling random negative assumptions on what they MIGHT do, try to be productive and help the community by emphasizing on what they need to improve and voice constructive criticism, and not whatever you keep doing. This is just my opinion. Well incontrol did mention something about seeing an epic game between Machine and someone else and how everyone wants to see that in the NASL so thats why i chose him, i agree we have no idea, im just saying that we probably will see quite a few players from each of those teams (as they have people working in the nasl its not a completly random assumption) I agree that we will just have to wait and see, and i am really skeptical about the NASL because i really want it to be the best NA has to offer against choice players from other parts of the world. Maybe its because its because i know the gsl players quite a bit better than alot of the other players who applied. but you have to admit out of the 100 or so applications of NA/EU there are quite a few bland ones thats not to say artosis , demuslim, tyler, moman, dimaga didnt have great NASL interviews that probably even exceed the very short korean ones. I was mainly pointing that out because of Pokebunny's comment about koreans being so bland or w/e he said. Honestly i love watching starcraft tournaments and have followed what is happening in TSL3 extensively yet did not complain once about what they are doing with it, i just think alot of people have legitimate concerns about how they are going about the NASL and those need to be heard. If oppions werent voiced by the community the NASL would probably still have 1) a team limit 2) an open tournament were only 1 player made it into the round of 16 and 4 players got seeded into the next season (they have since changed it to 16) 3) a cap on the amount of koreans as they originally stated. there are countless other positive changes based on community feedback, i am voicing my concerns out of concern for the league. I do agree though my attitude is a bit negative at times and i shouldnt make assumptions (the incontrol one isnt an assuumption he did say he was going to be in the league) and i wouldnt be suprised if we did see quite a few fnatic and EG players both teams are in contact with russ egmachine even thanked russ for the support in his interview. I just want all teams and all regions to get equal representation ( i know there will be more NA players so i dont mean it in that sense) I apologize if ive offended anyone with my forward looking views / extreme pessimism but beleive me it is because i want this league to succeed by pointing out possible flaws leading up to this possibly great tournament. Well, it is their tournament, they can invite whoever they want because their asses are on the line and they are doing all the work. Worst case scenario is that they invite people you think are "bad" and they get knocked out after the first season. I think everyone just needs to chill. "i think everyone just needs to chill" you sound like tyler yea ive said this in quite a few other posts that because of the fact that they changed the format to have 16 seeds from the open tournament replacing the bottom 16 we will eventually see the most deserving players in the league :D, i just hope its not to late by then as if the first few seasons dont do well there wont be anymore and if a bunch of people are pissed off about the invites then the seasons are less likely to do well, thats the reason i kind of dont agree with all invitees for the first season , its not going to please everyone. and if people only watch specific matches of the handful of players they like instead of following the league religiously it is less likely to do well
Yeah, I guess i just have an optimistic personality so seeing so many people being pessimistic rubs me the wrong way sometimes. I guess I have faith in Incontrol and Duran to make good decisions. People are going to be pissed off over invites no matter who is actually selected. I think they just did the invite process because it's much easier logistically, and they will be able to guarantee certain players/matchups. Gogo NASL 
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On March 17 2011 14:54 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 14:45 Spicy Pepper wrote:
What better way to get players involved in the community, than to exclude them from your events. Brilliant! I respect PokeBunny as a player, but his opinion on this topic is idiotic. How can you say his opinion is idiotic? He tactfully said what a hell of a lot of people are thinking. It's a very realistic opinion. Players can put out all the hunky dory nice interviews they want about how they suddenly love western e-sports and wanna be awesome...but when ever before this $100,000 figure did they really take interest in NA tournaments? Virtually never.
Let's break down his quote.
Overall, I just think the games with Koreans will be less interesting.
This is realistic? Who's thinking the Korean games are less interesting? I'm not saying no one thinks this, but this is not a legitimate argument to restrict them from NA tourneys, because it's not true.
Watching several of the very best Koreans dominate while giving a polite interview without forming relationships with foreign players or fans is not something that appeals to me as an American NASL spectator.
What's he mean by relationships? Do I have more of a relationship with QXC or Fenix, than I do with any of the Korean players at IEM? Do other people feel this way? Was there less interest in IEM because the Koreans showed up? Was there less at Blizzcon when Fruitdealer and Boxer, two guys I have zero relationship with, played their showmatch? Is the interest in TSL3 less so because there's these dominant Koreans? This is realistic?
I welcome Koreans that actively participate in our scene such as Cella, as those are players who have shown their interest in the foreign scene before giant numbers of cash were thrown at them. I mean no insult to Koreans when I say that their English skills coupled with their tendency to keep to themselves will make a tournament that is IMO less entertaining for casual fans and NA diehards over the course of multiple seasons.
Where is the proof for this lack of interest? No offense to Cella, I like him and I watch his stream, but there's no way he garners more interest by entering a tournament over these dominant Koreans with poorer English skills, who tend to keep to themselves. Why is that so? It's because the vast majority of people want to see great games, by great players. This is a fact that you can see from viewership. The foreigners and the Koreans that will bring the motivate the audience the watch are skewed towards the best.
Also, why restrict this requirement to Koreans? Why doesn't he apply this criteria to Americans or other foreigners? If you're any player of any nationality who keeps to himself, why doesn't that make him less interesting? WhiteRa hardly ever gives an interview, shouldn't we restrict him based on PokeBunny's criteria? Or is it because he's not Korean?
His opinion is idiotic. That's my opinion, but I think facts like viewship numbers support my point of view.
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On March 17 2011 15:48 avilo wrote:
Actually, I think a lot of people would rather the tournament not have been auto-invite/elitist in the first place.
And how hard is it for people to understand that NA needs to catch up to korea? Do other countries that need to catch up to the USA in basketball just try and bring every U.S. player to their country and just watch the Americans play all day? No. They start their own leagues.
Some of the better foreign players do go join the NBA though, just like what happens with foreigners going to korea for SC.
How would it be attractive to sponsors as well in North America, land of football and mcdonalds, if the league has the 50 best koreans in it and barely any north americans? Can you imagine any big U.S. corporations wanting to sponsor that league when they already have their own bias's and pre-conceived notions about video games in the first place?
NA = North America. That doesn't mean koreans should be excluded, they should be welcomed. But it shouldn't be the opposite extreme that some people seem to think would be good, where it's just all koreans owning up NASL.
Well, in commenting on your basketball examples, do you think the euro-basketball leagues and their owners don't want US talent over there? They do, they've tried to get US players to join their leagues, they just can't afford any higher tier talent and would still only have access to free-agents because of NBA contracts.
If they could, they'd bring in the best of the best for basketball. The problem is their basketball clubs are privately owned and personally funded. Since we're talking about European sports, why not look at another shining example that blows a hole straight through any argument you just made, football (soccer)? They bring in players from everywhere to their teams because they value skill, can afford it, and as a result, have a collection of massively popular leagues with the best talent in the world. People from all over the world love teams like FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC Milan, etc.
The more I read your arguments, the more unreasonable they get and the more tempted I am to just side with those calling out your biases.
US sponsors discriminating based on race? You're missing the point entirely on the whole business structure. You sponsor people who help you advertise your brand. When you're talking about a player with the fame of Nada or BoxeR, race does not matter because it didn't matter when they captivated and captured the loyalty of thousands if not millions of nerds. Their PLAY was what mattered because that is what they were judged on and what ultimately earns them exposure and respect. These are MULTINATIONAL corporations we are talking about. You seriously think they'd rather sponsor someone like EG_IdrA than someone like SlayerS_BoxeR because of appearance and race? Where is IdrA's massive sponsorship from Intel if that's the case? If BW was in the place of SC2, you think sponsors would shy away from sponsoring Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu if they were thinking about attending a tournament on US soil? It's about sponsoring individuals who appeal to the international audience you are trying to sell to. The majority of the massive pool of gamers doesn't care about race.
When you're talking about the fanbase for something like Football and Basketball, then race obviously matters a bit more because of the audience.
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On March 17 2011 16:52 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 16:50 zerglingsfolife wrote:On March 17 2011 16:41 Deindar wrote:On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate. i could not say it more eloquently. i don't want this post to die. That seems like a pretty bullshit reason. What the hell does "love the game" even mean? Do you think anyone loves the game more than someone like Artosis? You really think that is the reason for the skill gap? they understand that in order to succeed in this game they need to practice as hard if not harder than their opponents, somehow that's not translating over to the western culture, but a lot of western players who are complaining about koreans entering the tournament somehow feel they deserve to win large sums of money without putting forth the same level of effort.
No, it really is a bullshit reason. Western progamers fully understand the need to practice. What brighter people than you have already mentioned, is that quality of practice also counts. Laddering 12 hours a day is not the fucking same as practicing in a team house for 12 hours a day. That is something not available to western players until very recently, except for those who went to korea.
And in case you haven't fucking noticed, dropping school and going to korea to play sc, is a much, much bigger sacrifice than dropping out of school and staying in korea. Why the fuck do you think TLO left korea? Its not because he couldn't handle the practice regime. Its because it fucking sucks to have to leave behind your real life friends and family in order to pursue your dream.
To the poster above: using soccer to support your case is fucking stupid, given FIFA's 6+5 rule.
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You know why Koreans are going to win the NASL? Because they actually fucking practice. They live together as a team play Starcraft 2 for 12 hours straight, eat dinner, go to sleep, wake up and play some more Starcraft.
Tonight we watched IdrA get BM'd by combatex for 2 hours and Geoff play Zerg while coaching his students.
If EG was serious about winning the NASL... they would actually train together all day long, or at least every night, and develop sick build orders that they would unleash upon their foreign enemies with impunity.
Thats what the Koreans have been doing for years, if we really want to have a North American Star League with a North American champion then our North American champions need to take this shit more seriously.
At least Nony plays the Korean ladder <3
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EPT
