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Since when did discriminating against a race of people come into style?
A quote from the Gov Canada website on discrimination, taken from the case Ontario Human Rights Commission and O’Malley v. Simpson-Sears Ltd.:
"It has long been established in Canadian law that intent or motive to discriminate is not a necessary element for finding that a discriminatory act took place. It is sufficient if there is a discriminatory effect to the conduct."
Sure, there are many instances of discrimination from history that are far worse than this...but does that really make it tolerable to you? At the end of the day this is still, by legal definition, racial discrimination.
Leaves a bad taste in your mouth...
If you really want Korean's to commit to the NASL do what the NHL does: get players to sign contracts that they will void if they play in a foreign major league. You get more commitment from all participating players, and you don't have to be racist. Win-Win.
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On March 17 2011 17:22 vetinari wrote:
To the poster above: using soccer to support your case is fucking stupid, given FIFA's 6+5 rule.
How? Isn't the exact point of what we're arguing the degree to which such a thing should be regulated? For soccer clubs, they saw the 6+5 rule as appropriate. It's not like similar things are not happening in SC2 -- GSL's Code A, World Championship have designated seeding and spots for foreigners. The question of whether or not Koreans should be allowed to participate in the NASL is outright ludicrous. At best, it should be an argument of if there should be a system like 6+5 or not.
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On March 17 2011 17:22 vetinari wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 16:52 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 17 2011 16:50 zerglingsfolife wrote:On March 17 2011 16:41 Deindar wrote:On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate. i could not say it more eloquently. i don't want this post to die. That seems like a pretty bullshit reason. What the hell does "love the game" even mean? Do you think anyone loves the game more than someone like Artosis? You really think that is the reason for the skill gap? they understand that in order to succeed in this game they need to practice as hard if not harder than their opponents, somehow that's not translating over to the western culture, but a lot of western players who are complaining about koreans entering the tournament somehow feel they deserve to win large sums of money without putting forth the same level of effort. No, it really is a bullshit reason. Western progamers fully understand the need to practice. What brighter people than you have already mentioned, is that quality of practice also counts. Laddering 12 hours a day is not the fucking same as practicing in a team house for 12 hours a day. That is something not available to western players until very recently, except for those who went to korea. And in case you haven't fucking noticed, dropping school and going to korea to play sc, is a much, much bigger sacrifice than dropping out of school and staying in korea. Why the fuck do you think TLO left korea? Its not because he couldn't handle the practice regime. Its because it fucking sucks to have to leave behind your real life friends and family in order to pursue your dream. To the poster above: using soccer to support your case is fucking stupid, given FIFA's 6+5 rule.
no one is saying they even need to fucking go to korea, they could form their own house or play with each other more on a daily basis HERE in the states, but no one does, why? because they have real lives? then they don't deserve to fucking win 100k. root/fnatic have got it right, they're making the steps, my question is why then aren't other teams, and if they don't plan on it, why are they entitled to the winnings of the NASL anymore than a korean? just because they're from NA? what about EU? shouldn't they get banned or limited the same as koreans? why or why not?
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You make it sound like opening a progaming house is easy.
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what Kazeyonoma said is just so so so true. The BEST 50 players must be picked regardless of where they are from.
If that doesn't happen then that'd be a real let down to all the fans (worldwide). If we wanted the majority of NA players in the competition, a specific rule or guideline should've been made clear before this application process went public.
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Brian:
Even avilo and pokebunny don't agree with an outright banning of koreans. Like me, they feel that korean participation should be sharply limited, in order to better facilitate the development of the western scene. Myself for purely altruistic reasons, them because they hope to one day compete in the NASL. FIFA obviously agrees with our logic.
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On March 17 2011 17:36 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 17:22 vetinari wrote:On March 17 2011 16:52 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 17 2011 16:50 zerglingsfolife wrote:On March 17 2011 16:41 Deindar wrote:On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate. i could not say it more eloquently. i don't want this post to die. That seems like a pretty bullshit reason. What the hell does "love the game" even mean? Do you think anyone loves the game more than someone like Artosis? You really think that is the reason for the skill gap? they understand that in order to succeed in this game they need to practice as hard if not harder than their opponents, somehow that's not translating over to the western culture, but a lot of western players who are complaining about koreans entering the tournament somehow feel they deserve to win large sums of money without putting forth the same level of effort. No, it really is a bullshit reason. Western progamers fully understand the need to practice. What brighter people than you have already mentioned, is that quality of practice also counts. Laddering 12 hours a day is not the fucking same as practicing in a team house for 12 hours a day. That is something not available to western players until very recently, except for those who went to korea. And in case you haven't fucking noticed, dropping school and going to korea to play sc, is a much, much bigger sacrifice than dropping out of school and staying in korea. Why the fuck do you think TLO left korea? Its not because he couldn't handle the practice regime. Its because it fucking sucks to have to leave behind your real life friends and family in order to pursue your dream. To the poster above: using soccer to support your case is fucking stupid, given FIFA's 6+5 rule. no one is saying they even need to fucking go to korea, they could form their own house or play with each other more on a daily basis HERE in the states, but no one does, why? because they have real lives? then they don't deserve to fucking win 100k. root/fnatic have got it right, they're making the steps, my question is why then aren't other teams, and if they don't plan on it, why are they entitled to the winnings of the NASL anymore than a korean? just because they're from NA? what about EU? shouldn't they get banned or limited the same as koreans? why or why not?
Is it that hard to understand that NA and EU players are always going to be disadvantaged for practice no matter what they do unless they physically move and relocate to Korea with other top players who speak their own language?
Even what Root/Fnatic are doing isn't going to be as good as Korean practice houses because they will have severe latency playing on the Korean server. Everyone knows NA and EU servers are not as strong.
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On March 17 2011 17:36 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 17:22 vetinari wrote:On March 17 2011 16:52 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 17 2011 16:50 zerglingsfolife wrote:On March 17 2011 16:41 Deindar wrote:On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate. i could not say it more eloquently. i don't want this post to die. That seems like a pretty bullshit reason. What the hell does "love the game" even mean? Do you think anyone loves the game more than someone like Artosis? You really think that is the reason for the skill gap? they understand that in order to succeed in this game they need to practice as hard if not harder than their opponents, somehow that's not translating over to the western culture, but a lot of western players who are complaining about koreans entering the tournament somehow feel they deserve to win large sums of money without putting forth the same level of effort. No, it really is a bullshit reason. Western progamers fully understand the need to practice. What brighter people than you have already mentioned, is that quality of practice also counts. Laddering 12 hours a day is not the fucking same as practicing in a team house for 12 hours a day. That is something not available to western players until very recently, except for those who went to korea. And in case you haven't fucking noticed, dropping school and going to korea to play sc, is a much, much bigger sacrifice than dropping out of school and staying in korea. Why the fuck do you think TLO left korea? Its not because he couldn't handle the practice regime. Its because it fucking sucks to have to leave behind your real life friends and family in order to pursue your dream. To the poster above: using soccer to support your case is fucking stupid, given FIFA's 6+5 rule. no one is saying they even need to fucking go to korea, they could form their own house or play with each other more on a daily basis HERE in the states, but no one does, why? because they have real lives? then they don't deserve to fucking win 100k. root/fnatic have got it right, they're making the steps, my question is why then aren't other teams, and if they don't plan on it, why are they entitled to the winnings of the NASL anymore than a korean? just because they're from NA? what about EU? shouldn't they get banned or limited the same as koreans? why or why not?
Indeed. Besides, the system you currently see in Korea has been developed through hard work and sacrifice of the pioneers of starcraft 1, which is why the earliest player are still hold in such an incredibly high esteem despite their lacking skill for today's standard: because they deserve it!
Not sure if something like that will ever happen in the western world though. As, you said, root/fnatic made the beginning and I heard that TLO was planning something like this as well, besides some liquid player took great pains to go and train in Korea, so let's hope for the best. :-)
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Its a premiere league and it wants the best players. The NASL shouldnt care about race.
All of this no Korean talk is almost borderline racism
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On March 17 2011 17:44 vetinari wrote:
Brian:
Even avilo and pokebunny don't agree with an outright banning of koreans. Like me, they feel that korean participation should be sharply limited, in order to better facilitate the development of the western scene. Myself for purely altruistic reasons, them because they hope to one day compete in the NASL. FIFA obviously agrees with our logic.
i think everyone agrees with you to an extent. I think the real question relies on HOW MANY koreans we should invite, and i think we should limit at ~10.
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Posting at page nr 90 this has probably been mentioned countless of times, but whatever. I don't think they should put a restriction on the number of koreans until they know how big an interest there is for NASL from Korea. Personally I wouldn't want another GSL with only koreans but this time in North-America. Since it's called NASL you kinda want to see alot of American and also European players.
Having some koreans play would however add to the high level play of the tournament and really make it feel like one of the biggest and most respectable SC2 tournaments on the globe. It would also be interesting to see how the foreigners adapt and improve compared to the koreans from one season to the next. Playing against koreans will make foreigners more accustomed to their style of play and hopefully improve the overall level of play. If the foreigner scene ever is to really compete with the koreans something like this probably is a good first step.
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Okay... so im gonna give my openion on this whole subject, no matter how none important it might be, and im gonna be flaking the whole reason for this topic to have been made in the first place.
The fact that this discussion allready is reaching 2000 replies in this thread only... im not sure if you guys know what is happening here, your trying to alienate the koreans from the whole forienger scene, this might just feel like a single tournament, but this is how it start, if you begin to lock koreans out from forienger tournaments, what says they won't do the same in return ? cutting out ONE country from the rest of the world, based on their skill, would seem like a huge offensive move, in return you can bet your bank account that they will shut out the rest of the world from their tournaments, dividing us, is this really what you guys want ?
Every action has consecvens, please give it afew thoughts before going on the offensive QQ about your favorit forienger player not being as good as in your wet dreams.
(I apologize for any offense made, and if this has allready been discussed (1800 replys is alot to read through, and sorry for grammer, english is not main language)
Edit: after chatting with my friend beside me, it went up for me, that this is a huge act of racism to add, your talking about restricting one country from being a place, and no one else, that's directly racism, im sorry guys, but this whole discussion should be closed and locked away...
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On March 17 2011 17:50 gogatorsfoster wrote:
Its a premiere league and it wants the best players. The NASL shouldnt care about race.
All of this no Korean talk is almost borderline racism
All this talk about the "no Korean talk" being racism is borderline ridiculous. Are you suggesting the European championship in *pick your sport* is racist? Just because someone thinks the league should be limited to a certain region doesn't mean they are racists. Also most people recognize that Korean means "Korean based players" which have nothing to do with race.
For the record I do not think we should prevent the Koreans to compete in the NASL but it so freaking annoying when people throw racism into the matter when it has nothing to do with. Same thing happened with Streloks interview for the TSL. Just because he questioned how the tournament format was he got called racist within a few pages...
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On March 17 2011 17:44 vetinari wrote:
Brian:
Even avilo and pokebunny don't agree with an outright banning of koreans. Like me, they feel that korean participation should be sharply limited, in order to better facilitate the development of the western scene. Myself for purely altruistic reasons, them because they hope to one day compete in the NASL. FIFA obviously agrees with our logic.
i know quite a lot about FIFA and I wouldn't exactly be holding that organisation up as a bastion of rational, logical thought. rofl.
anywhoo...if anyone wants to read up on the 6+5 rule have a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6+5_rule
it is actually a very contentious issue, especially in europe, and yes it does involve hard questions about human rights and the types of modern societies that we want to create. Do we want totally free societies where goods and people can move freely across borders. Or do we want to keep some elements of protectionism to foster local cultures and identities, or at least keep them from dying.
I think you can draw a direct analogy between european football and sc2. Do we want all the best players in the world concentrated in a few teams (or leagues in sc2's case). Or do we want it spread out like it was in the 1950s and earlier? In the first example, you get the highest quality play possible. But don't forget the second examples have their charms. I read a Pele's autobiography not long ago and one thing that stuck with me were the cross continental battles between european and south american clubs. You really got the sense that those two sets of teams were completely different in culture, style, and sensibilities. Sure, they werent the highest quality teams, but the matches they played still entertained in their own way.
So, for the sake of growing esports, I think the organisers are correct in making sure that NASL has representation from all around the world. It won't be the absolute top level of play, but it will deliver entertainment in other ways.
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On March 17 2011 17:58 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 17:50 gogatorsfoster wrote:
Its a premiere league and it wants the best players. The NASL shouldnt care about race.
All of this no Korean talk is almost borderline racism All this talk about the "no Korean talk" being racism is borderline ridiculous. Are you suggesting the European championship in *pick your sport* is racist? Just because someone thinks the league should be limited to a certain region doesn't mean they are racists. Also most people recognize that Korean means "Korean based players" which have nothing to do with race. For the record I do not think we should prevent the Koreans to compete in the NASL but it so freaking annoying when people throw racism into the matter when it has nothing to do with. Same thing happened with Streloks interview for the TSL. Just because he questioned how the tournament format was he got called racist within a few pages...
Well, then you had to limit it to NA only.
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On March 17 2011 17:50 Jouu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 17:44 vetinari wrote:
Brian:
Even avilo and pokebunny don't agree with an outright banning of koreans. Like me, they feel that korean participation should be sharply limited, in order to better facilitate the development of the western scene. Myself for purely altruistic reasons, them because they hope to one day compete in the NASL. FIFA obviously agrees with our logic.
i think everyone agrees with you to an extent. I think the real question relies on HOW MANY koreans we should invite, and i think we should limit at ~10.
I should hope so. Those who advocate a free for all, and those who advocate an outright ban are both being foolish. Both would be counterproductive to the stated goal of NASL, which is the growing of the western esports scene. And lets face it: the only reason why team houses are starting to pop up in the west is BECAUSE of the NASL.
To the people crying racism: its not fucking racism to limit the amount of professionals/foreigners participating in what is essentially a semi-pro/amateur tournament that is designed to grow the local esports scene. NASL is not about being the best of the best. Its about making LA the next Seoul of esports.
Besides, as I have said before. The Olympics place limits on the number of people any one country can send to any one sport. The olympics ALSO allow the host country to exceed those limits. Precedent is a wonderful thing, aye?
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I'm not going to read through 90 pages of a giant shitstorm especially after reading through twenty or thirty of it in the other thread, so if this has already been mentioned, my apologies.
I really think the NASL would do well to expand the player pool to 10 divisions of 10 players with a 32 man playoff. Basically, just double the numbers for everything and split up the prize money at the off-line playoffs a little bit more to accommodate the larger numbers. This would allow the NASL to make most people happy. They could invite plenty of Koreans, they could invite the top players from every foreigner country (or at least every country that has top-level players) and fit in plenty of up-and-coming NA players to help grow the scene there. Everyone wins. The only problems obviously would there'd be twice as many games to cast which I can't imagine their schedule being able to work that out.
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On March 17 2011 17:45 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 17:36 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 17 2011 17:22 vetinari wrote:On March 17 2011 16:52 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 17 2011 16:50 zerglingsfolife wrote:On March 17 2011 16:41 Deindar wrote:On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate. i could not say it more eloquently. i don't want this post to die. That seems like a pretty bullshit reason. What the hell does "love the game" even mean? Do you think anyone loves the game more than someone like Artosis? You really think that is the reason for the skill gap? they understand that in order to succeed in this game they need to practice as hard if not harder than their opponents, somehow that's not translating over to the western culture, but a lot of western players who are complaining about koreans entering the tournament somehow feel they deserve to win large sums of money without putting forth the same level of effort. No, it really is a bullshit reason. Western progamers fully understand the need to practice. What brighter people than you have already mentioned, is that quality of practice also counts. Laddering 12 hours a day is not the fucking same as practicing in a team house for 12 hours a day. That is something not available to western players until very recently, except for those who went to korea. And in case you haven't fucking noticed, dropping school and going to korea to play sc, is a much, much bigger sacrifice than dropping out of school and staying in korea. Why the fuck do you think TLO left korea? Its not because he couldn't handle the practice regime. Its because it fucking sucks to have to leave behind your real life friends and family in order to pursue your dream. To the poster above: using soccer to support your case is fucking stupid, given FIFA's 6+5 rule. no one is saying they even need to fucking go to korea, they could form their own house or play with each other more on a daily basis HERE in the states, but no one does, why? because they have real lives? then they don't deserve to fucking win 100k. root/fnatic have got it right, they're making the steps, my question is why then aren't other teams, and if they don't plan on it, why are they entitled to the winnings of the NASL anymore than a korean? just because they're from NA? what about EU? shouldn't they get banned or limited the same as koreans? why or why not? Is it that hard to understand that NA and EU players are always going to be disadvantaged for practice no matter what they do unless they physically move and relocate to Korea with other top players who speak their own language? Even what Root/Fnatic are doing isn't going to be as good as Korean practice houses because they will have severe latency playing on the Korean server. Everyone knows NA and EU servers are not as strong.
Then by your reasoning, the west can never catch up to korea? harsh.
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I don't think that only 5 koreans should be invited only, but because their skill level in general is assumed to be higher I would hate to see very few of the US players competing for a tournament in their own country. Most of us WANT to see our favorite NA players competing. So I say keep it half and half or so if the NA players cannot yet compete with the koreans.
Because this is a big tournament it will make the NA players strive to become more competive so eventually the NA players would/could be at an equal skill level as the koreans.
From a show business perspective, having top korean players competing would definitely be favorable as it would attract more viewers such as viewers even from Korea and EU. since the skill level of top koreans is so high more would want to watch them which would then keep e-sports prospering in America, which is what we all want, right?
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On March 17 2011 17:31 Gnial wrote:
Since when did discriminating against a race of people come into style?
A quote from the Gov Canada website on discrimination, taken from the case Ontario Human Rights Commission and O’Malley v. Simpson-Sears Ltd.:
"It has long been established in Canadian law that intent or motive to discriminate is not a necessary element for finding that a discriminatory act took place. It is sufficient if there is a discriminatory effect to the conduct."
Sure, there are many instances of discrimination from history that are far worse than this...but does that really make it tolerable to you? At the end of the day this is still, by legal definition, racial discrimination.
Leaves a bad taste in your mouth...
If you really want Korean's to commit to the NASL do what the NHL does: get players to sign contracts that they will void if they play in a foreign major league. You get more commitment from all participating players, and you don't have to be racist. Win-Win.
This is a fantastic idea. Would it conflict with MLG, though? There would have to be a good reason to ban ONLY foreign leagues. For example, the ability to be prepared for NASL events and possible conflicts with overseas tourneys. Also, there would need to be a clause that if you dropped from the tournament you would be able to participate in said leagues.
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EPT
