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I think the bottom line in this question is:
do you want to close the gap between Korea and the western world in starcraft 2?
If you do, then put both scenes in a direct competition to each other.
Plenty of "pro" gamers will in the western scene will fall,
but also western esports heros will emerge stepping up to the plate.
I have the feeling (only my opinion), that is that is not done,
then the Korean esport scene will continue to stomp the western scene,
where you can make money basically by beating a fiel of players
which consists mainly of non-professionals
(i.e. players for whom practising esports is only a second priority).
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On March 17 2011 17:58 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 17:50 gogatorsfoster wrote:
Its a premiere league and it wants the best players. The NASL shouldnt care about race.
All of this no Korean talk is almost borderline racism All this talk about the "no Korean talk" being racism is borderline ridiculous. Are you suggesting the European championship in *pick your sport* is racist? Just because someone thinks the league should be limited to a certain region doesn't mean they are racists. Also most people recognize that Korean means "Korean based players" which have nothing to do with race. For the record I do not think we should prevent the Koreans to compete in the NASL but it so freaking annoying when people throw racism into the matter when it has nothing to do with. Same thing happened with Streloks interview for the TSL. Just because he questioned how the tournament format was he got called racist within a few pages...
im sorry but you can't prevent only one country on the basic of them being koreans and nothing else, and at same time say it's not racism, if so you would have to say it was NA ONLY, prevently the rest of the SC scene including SEA and EU, exluding 1 country on the sole base that it's koreans as a people, is pure basic racism.
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On March 17 2011 18:18 LeGeNDz wrote:
I don't think that only 5 koreans should be invited only, but because their skill level in general is assumed to be higher I would hate to see very few of the US players competing for a tournament in their own country. Most of us WANT to see our favorite NA players competing. So I say keep it half and half or so if the NA players cannot yet compete with the koreans.
Because this is a big tournament it will make the NA players strive to become more competive so eventually the NA players would/could be at an equal skill level as the koreans.
From a show business perspective, having top korean players competing would definitely be favorable as it would attract more viewers such as viewers even from Korea and EU. since the skill level of top koreans is so high more would want to watch them which would then keep e-sports prospering in America, which is what we all want, right?
The main reason to shelter foreigners from the koreans currently being stated is for the foreign scene to grow in skill. However, how will the NASL specifically cause the foreigners to grow their game? Will they change their training habits? Join team houses? Find consistently top level training partners and play eight to ten hours a day? grind out builds and the timings? Before you say that the league will create an incentive, there have been many foreign dominated tournaments with large prize pools. The NASL shouldn't be necessary to create such an incentive because it should have been done long ago. If foreigners are sheltered but they remain the same in their training habits and are very noncomital to the game, then you're just giving lazy gamers (by korean standards) free money where as there are koreans who are constantly innovating the game, spending twelve hours a day practicing, and making starcraft their livelihood. it seems like many foreign players, such as cloud, pokebunny, to a degree avilo and blur as well as others, believe they've already done all they can to improve their game and that nothing more is possible. Despite all the arguing, none of the players who posted in this thread said anything about improving their training regiment and doing more or doing something about the lack of quality practice. So its a moot point about sheltering foreigners so they can catch up since, by Cloud's words, they've already done all they can and the western culture makes it impossible for them to do anything. the idea of 'protecting to improve the scene' is a bunch of garbage. the game hasn't even been out a year and the skill gap has been created. foreigners need a wake up call, not something that appeases their lackadaisical attitude towards the game.
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On March 17 2011 18:07 iba001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 17:44 vetinari wrote:
Brian:
Even avilo and pokebunny don't agree with an outright banning of koreans. Like me, they feel that korean participation should be sharply limited, in order to better facilitate the development of the western scene. Myself for purely altruistic reasons, them because they hope to one day compete in the NASL. FIFA obviously agrees with our logic.
i know quite a lot about FIFA and I wouldn't exactly be holding that organisation up as a bastion of rational, logical thought. rofl. anywhoo...if anyone wants to read up on the 6+5 rule have a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6+5_ruleit is actually a very contentious issue, especially in europe, and yes it does involve hard questions about human rights and the types of modern societies that we want to create. Do we want totally free societies where goods and people can move freely across borders. Or do we want to keep some elements of protectionism to foster local cultures and identities, or at least keep them from dying. I think you can draw a direct analogy between european football and sc2. Do we want all the best players in the world concentrated in a few teams (or leagues in sc2's case). Or do we want it spread out like it was in the 1950s and earlier? In the first example, you get the highest quality play possible. But don't forget the second examples have their charms. I read a Pele's autobiography not long ago and one thing that stuck with me were the cross continental battles between european and south american clubs. You really got the sense that those two sets of teams were completely different in culture, style, and sensibilities. Sure, they werent the highest quality teams, but the matches they played still entertained in their own way. So, for the sake of growing esports, I think the organisers are correct in making sure that NASL has representation from all around the world. It won't be the absolute top level of play, but it will deliver entertainment in other ways.
Heh. For FIFA, its not about local cultures. Its that if english players can no longer be a part of the english premiere league, then eventually the english will lose interest in football itself. National and regional pride is a huge element in keeping local viewers interested in the game. And eventually, if the 6+5 rule is prevented by EU law from being applied, it will mean the long term decline, and perhaps even death of football as a major sport. In the long run, its not love of a good game that keeps people interested in sports. Its the deeper, primal instinct of supporting YOUR team. YOUR champion.
If esports are to ever take off, they need to be able to tap into those emotions. We already see it in when a foreigner plays against a korean.
Anyway, fun fact of the day: increased levels of oxytocin, the hormone known to play a major role in pair bonding, mother and child bonding, also known as the "cuddle chemical", also increases feelings of antagonism towards people not of ones racial/tribal group.
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The general order is you have qualifiers and then you have some wildcards to give some players the chance that maybe wouldn'¨t made it to the tourney in the first place, like for example tennis tournament Wimbledon.
in NASL it's the other way around. You basically have an invitiational (where the prize money is huge enough to attract the very best) where you, first, take in the players that wouuld have a tougher time qualifying and then invite some of the best players.
If the number of "koreans" is small, say 5-6 people NASL is putting their asses on the line looking quite dumb. Because those 5-6 is going to roflstomp the field and its gonna be 1-5 korea (all the guys that got invited) and then the rest of the field.
I don't know how that is a better solution rather than just taking in the best and then handing out some wildcards to players that is not as good but give them a chance to promote esports in the west.
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On March 17 2011 18:24 kaileah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 18:18 LeGeNDz wrote:
I don't think that only 5 koreans should be invited only, but because their skill level in general is assumed to be higher I would hate to see very few of the US players competing for a tournament in their own country. Most of us WANT to see our favorite NA players competing. So I say keep it half and half or so if the NA players cannot yet compete with the koreans.
Because this is a big tournament it will make the NA players strive to become more competive so eventually the NA players would/could be at an equal skill level as the koreans.
From a show business perspective, having top korean players competing would definitely be favorable as it would attract more viewers such as viewers even from Korea and EU. since the skill level of top koreans is so high more would want to watch them which would then keep e-sports prospering in America, which is what we all want, right? The main reason to shelter foreigners from the koreans currently being stated is for the foreign scene to grow in skill. However, how will the NASL specifically cause the foreigners to grow their game? Will they change their training habits? Join team houses? Find consistently top level training partners and play eight to ten hours a day? grind out builds and the timings? Before you say that the league will create an incentive, there have been many foreign dominated tournaments with large prize pools. The NASL shouldn't be necessary to create such an incentive because it should have been done long ago. If foreigners are sheltered but they remain the same in their training habits and are very noncomital to the game, then you're just giving lazy gamers (by korean standards) free money where as there are koreans who are constantly innovating the game, spending twelve hours a day practicing, and making starcraft their livelihood. it seems like many foreign players, such as cloud, pokebunny, to a degree avilo and blur as well as others, believe they've already done all they can to improve their game and that nothing more is possible. Despite all the arguing, none of the players who posted in this thread said anything about improving their training regiment and doing more or doing something about the lack of quality practice. So its a moot point about sheltering foreigners so they can catch up since, by Cloud's words, they've already done all they can and the western culture makes it impossible for them to do anything. the idea of 'protecting to improve the scene' is a bunch of garbage. the game hasn't even been out a year and the skill gap has been created. foreigners need a wake up call, not something that appeases their lackadaisical attitude towards the game.
There are plenty of old players being motivated to come back and play in the NASL, that other tournaments were not able to do. The money is simply much more. In addition, the "semi-pro" people are suddenly looking at the NASL and thinking, this could actually be my job.
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I haven't read through all of the thread but I don't quite understand why it seems so necessary to invite koreans at all. In sc:bw it was very common to have foreigner tournaments only and there the skill gap was even bigger. But nobody cared really because there were many people who said that they actually prefered foreigners with their individual playstyle which was different from that of koreans. I also think that foreign players just have more profile to the average spectator - inviting a few drama koreans could be a good idea. Still, it's a new game and a new scene so I won't make too many comparisons because people nowadays also actively follow the korean scene where Jinro and Idra play e.g., but, TSL 1 - 2 were foreigner only and it was a huge fun. On the other hand, there are many tournaments constantly where the best foreigners compete, so it may be more special to mix the leagues a bit.
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N.A players should treat this as a great opportunity to play the best in Korea, a chance to get experience against the best.
Also how can the NASL say no to such great players. They want to be a top tier league with an eye to showing they can draw a big audience to watch top tier SC2. Top flight koreans would help that.
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TSL is evolving, and NASL is keeping up. Offering the best and biggest competition with outrageous prize pools featuring the best players from all over the world.
This is nothing but a good thing for spectators. The only downside is potential lag for players playing to and from korea.
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I'd invite the very best players in the world, Of course they would have to be willing to come to the US to play in the NASL. Players who can't make the trip to the finals venue shouldn't be selected. Most Koreans would probably pick GSL over NASL due to locality so the Koreans that apply would probably be slimmed down to around 12-16 pending how many teams with sponsors can make the trip.
I think fears of a Korean sweep aren't overplayed, We had IEM where Koreans placed top 3 after group stages. Then there was a period of time where MBC Commentators for Tekken Clash dominated MLG for Tekken 6. But there are times where foreigners have flown to Korea and did well. USA beat Korea in a close 7-6 match at IeSF for A.V.A (Alliance of Valiant Arms, F2P shooter) so it can go both ways.
I watch tournaments for the best players, The only tournaments at IEM I didn't watch was SC2 (only watched the controversial moment) and LoL.
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On March 17 2011 18:32 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 18:24 kaileah wrote:On March 17 2011 18:18 LeGeNDz wrote:
I don't think that only 5 koreans should be invited only, but because their skill level in general is assumed to be higher I would hate to see very few of the US players competing for a tournament in their own country. Most of us WANT to see our favorite NA players competing. So I say keep it half and half or so if the NA players cannot yet compete with the koreans.
Because this is a big tournament it will make the NA players strive to become more competive so eventually the NA players would/could be at an equal skill level as the koreans.
From a show business perspective, having top korean players competing would definitely be favorable as it would attract more viewers such as viewers even from Korea and EU. since the skill level of top koreans is so high more would want to watch them which would then keep e-sports prospering in America, which is what we all want, right? The main reason to shelter foreigners from the koreans currently being stated is for the foreign scene to grow in skill. However, how will the NASL specifically cause the foreigners to grow their game? Will they change their training habits? Join team houses? Find consistently top level training partners and play eight to ten hours a day? grind out builds and the timings? Before you say that the league will create an incentive, there have been many foreign dominated tournaments with large prize pools. The NASL shouldn't be necessary to create such an incentive because it should have been done long ago. If foreigners are sheltered but they remain the same in their training habits and are very noncomital to the game, then you're just giving lazy gamers (by korean standards) free money where as there are koreans who are constantly innovating the game, spending twelve hours a day practicing, and making starcraft their livelihood. it seems like many foreign players, such as cloud, pokebunny, to a degree avilo and blur as well as others, believe they've already done all they can to improve their game and that nothing more is possible. Despite all the arguing, none of the players who posted in this thread said anything about improving their training regiment and doing more or doing something about the lack of quality practice. So its a moot point about sheltering foreigners so they can catch up since, by Cloud's words, they've already done all they can and the western culture makes it impossible for them to do anything. the idea of 'protecting to improve the scene' is a bunch of garbage. the game hasn't even been out a year and the skill gap has been created. foreigners need a wake up call, not something that appeases their lackadaisical attitude towards the game. There are plenty of old players being motivated to come back and play in the NASL, that other tournaments were not able to do. The money is simply much more. In addition, the "semi-pro" people are suddenly looking at the NASL and thinking, this could actually be my job.
you're assuming that old players and semi-pros would somehow change the scene. would the old players even be good enough in skill and get results in a league that has been repeatedly claiming invites will be chosen based on 'results results results popularity'? would these old players somehow revolutionize the practice regiment of the foreign scene? semi-pro players becoming full time players would mean nothing if the western scene's infrastructure is the same. going to sc2ranks, i notice that among the top point leaders, its the europeans that have massed the most games. Kas even has well over 4k games played. like cloud said, its not quantity but quality but the west has done nothing to address the fact. At one point, Korea was the same but they found ways to concentrate their best players together for 8+ hours daily to improve the quality of their play. its something that western players have totally given up on, blaming culture for making it impossible. what makes you think the nasl will instantly allow for the quality of practice / players / infrastructure to improve?
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So let me get this straight, people would rather have a chance at winning NASL without changing much in their practice strategies. This is pretty much accepting the fact that the tournament will end up being viewed as an overpaid 2nd rate one rather than real top level instead of just opening the flood gates, accepting the fact that westerners might not get shit for the first couple of seasons but have a goal to strive to, real competition, an extremely competitive environment that will force western SC2 scene to develop.
The way it's being done now how do you expect or even dare say that it will bring development when top players have been destroyed by mediocre Koreans. You have a couple of proven players but they can't be the only evolutionary force. If they get a bad day they're out and you're stuck in the same pool of mediocrity, playing and smiling and thinking they're good in their small little world.
I've been pretty aggressive in this post and would like to apologize to the people that feel offended but it is my opinion that the skill gap will only increase more if there's no real competition or incentive to develop, and money is only an incentive to win not to play better.
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On March 17 2011 18:48 kaileah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 18:32 zerglingsfolife wrote:On March 17 2011 18:24 kaileah wrote:On March 17 2011 18:18 LeGeNDz wrote:
I don't think that only 5 koreans should be invited only, but because their skill level in general is assumed to be higher I would hate to see very few of the US players competing for a tournament in their own country. Most of us WANT to see our favorite NA players competing. So I say keep it half and half or so if the NA players cannot yet compete with the koreans.
Because this is a big tournament it will make the NA players strive to become more competive so eventually the NA players would/could be at an equal skill level as the koreans.
From a show business perspective, having top korean players competing would definitely be favorable as it would attract more viewers such as viewers even from Korea and EU. since the skill level of top koreans is so high more would want to watch them which would then keep e-sports prospering in America, which is what we all want, right? The main reason to shelter foreigners from the koreans currently being stated is for the foreign scene to grow in skill. However, how will the NASL specifically cause the foreigners to grow their game? Will they change their training habits? Join team houses? Find consistently top level training partners and play eight to ten hours a day? grind out builds and the timings? Before you say that the league will create an incentive, there have been many foreign dominated tournaments with large prize pools. The NASL shouldn't be necessary to create such an incentive because it should have been done long ago. If foreigners are sheltered but they remain the same in their training habits and are very noncomital to the game, then you're just giving lazy gamers (by korean standards) free money where as there are koreans who are constantly innovating the game, spending twelve hours a day practicing, and making starcraft their livelihood. it seems like many foreign players, such as cloud, pokebunny, to a degree avilo and blur as well as others, believe they've already done all they can to improve their game and that nothing more is possible. Despite all the arguing, none of the players who posted in this thread said anything about improving their training regiment and doing more or doing something about the lack of quality practice. So its a moot point about sheltering foreigners so they can catch up since, by Cloud's words, they've already done all they can and the western culture makes it impossible for them to do anything. the idea of 'protecting to improve the scene' is a bunch of garbage. the game hasn't even been out a year and the skill gap has been created. foreigners need a wake up call, not something that appeases their lackadaisical attitude towards the game. There are plenty of old players being motivated to come back and play in the NASL, that other tournaments were not able to do. The money is simply much more. In addition, the "semi-pro" people are suddenly looking at the NASL and thinking, this could actually be my job. you're assuming that old players and semi-pros would somehow change the scene. would the old players even be good enough in skill and get results in a league that has been repeatedly claiming invites will be chosen based on 'results results results popularity'? would these old players somehow revolutionize the practice regiment of the foreign scene? semi-pro players becoming full time players would mean nothing if the western scene's infrastructure is the same. going to sc2ranks, i notice that among the top point leaders, its the europeans that have massed the most games. Kas even has well over 4k games played. like cloud said, its not quantity but quality but the west has done nothing to address the fact. At one point, Korea was the same but they found ways to concentrate their best players together for 8+ hours daily to improve the quality of their play. its something that western players have totally given up on, blaming culture for making it impossible. what makes you think the nasl will instantly allow for the quality of practice / players / infrastructure to improve?
Look at what the NASL can do though. If it can motivate more players to play the game in NA and EU more and take it more seriously, the level of each server will rise. Then look at new players watching the NASL and getting drawn into SC, you have grown your potential pool of players which could also improve and help evolve the NA and EU scenes so that the ladder on NA and EU can try to catch up to KR
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On March 17 2011 18:48 kaileah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 18:32 zerglingsfolife wrote:On March 17 2011 18:24 kaileah wrote:On March 17 2011 18:18 LeGeNDz wrote:
I don't think that only 5 koreans should be invited only, but because their skill level in general is assumed to be higher I would hate to see very few of the US players competing for a tournament in their own country. Most of us WANT to see our favorite NA players competing. So I say keep it half and half or so if the NA players cannot yet compete with the koreans.
Because this is a big tournament it will make the NA players strive to become more competive so eventually the NA players would/could be at an equal skill level as the koreans.
From a show business perspective, having top korean players competing would definitely be favorable as it would attract more viewers such as viewers even from Korea and EU. since the skill level of top koreans is so high more would want to watch them which would then keep e-sports prospering in America, which is what we all want, right? The main reason to shelter foreigners from the koreans currently being stated is for the foreign scene to grow in skill. However, how will the NASL specifically cause the foreigners to grow their game? Will they change their training habits? Join team houses? Find consistently top level training partners and play eight to ten hours a day? grind out builds and the timings? Before you say that the league will create an incentive, there have been many foreign dominated tournaments with large prize pools. The NASL shouldn't be necessary to create such an incentive because it should have been done long ago. If foreigners are sheltered but they remain the same in their training habits and are very noncomital to the game, then you're just giving lazy gamers (by korean standards) free money where as there are koreans who are constantly innovating the game, spending twelve hours a day practicing, and making starcraft their livelihood. it seems like many foreign players, such as cloud, pokebunny, to a degree avilo and blur as well as others, believe they've already done all they can to improve their game and that nothing more is possible. Despite all the arguing, none of the players who posted in this thread said anything about improving their training regiment and doing more or doing something about the lack of quality practice. So its a moot point about sheltering foreigners so they can catch up since, by Cloud's words, they've already done all they can and the western culture makes it impossible for them to do anything. the idea of 'protecting to improve the scene' is a bunch of garbage. the game hasn't even been out a year and the skill gap has been created. foreigners need a wake up call, not something that appeases their lackadaisical attitude towards the game. There are plenty of old players being motivated to come back and play in the NASL, that other tournaments were not able to do. The money is simply much more. In addition, the "semi-pro" people are suddenly looking at the NASL and thinking, this could actually be my job. you're assuming that old players and semi-pros would somehow change the scene. would the old players even be good enough in skill and get results in a league that has been repeatedly claiming invites will be chosen based on 'results results results popularity'? would these old players somehow revolutionize the practice regiment of the foreign scene? semi-pro players becoming full time players would mean nothing if the western scene's infrastructure is the same. going to sc2ranks, i notice that among the top point leaders, its the europeans that have massed the most games. Kas even has well over 4k games played. like cloud said, its not quantity but quality but the west has done nothing to address the fact. At one point, Korea was the same but they found ways to concentrate their best players together for 8+ hours daily to improve the quality of their play. its something that western players have totally given up on, blaming culture for making it impossible. what makes you think the nasl will instantly allow for the quality of practice / players / infrastructure to improve?
one hundred thousand reasons. Fnatic, eg, root are starting western team houses. Because of the NASL. In the end, it comes down to money. Nobody is going to spend tens of thousands of dollars training for tournaments with 2000 dollar prize pools. It still makes me laugh when I hear "oh, MLG has a big prize!" "what is it?" "2500 dollars" "...".
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where can we find nasl organisators official position about this? pls
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On March 17 2011 18:20 StallingHard wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 17:31 Gnial wrote:
Since when did discriminating against a race of people come into style?
A quote from the Gov Canada website on discrimination, taken from the case Ontario Human Rights Commission and O’Malley v. Simpson-Sears Ltd.:
"It has long been established in Canadian law that intent or motive to discriminate is not a necessary element for finding that a discriminatory act took place. It is sufficient if there is a discriminatory effect to the conduct."
Sure, there are many instances of discrimination from history that are far worse than this...but does that really make it tolerable to you? At the end of the day this is still, by legal definition, racial discrimination.
Leaves a bad taste in your mouth...
If you really want Korean's to commit to the NASL do what the NHL does: get players to sign contracts that they will void if they play in a foreign major league. You get more commitment from all participating players, and you don't have to be racist. Win-Win. This is a fantastic idea. Would it conflict with MLG, though? There would have to be a good reason to ban ONLY foreign leagues. For example, the ability to be prepared for NASL events and possible conflicts with overseas tourneys. Also, there would need to be a clause that if you dropped from the tournament you would be able to participate in said leagues.
Yeah, lots of things to think about - way too complicated a problem for me to think about at this wee hour (without getting paid ^^), although a few ideas come to mind.
To keep the NHL analogy going, MLG could be treated like the Olympics are to hockey. The NASL can make special exceptions for certain tournaments that they want to help facilitate.
With respect to conflicting foreign tournaments, if the goal is to ensure commitment to the NASL then they will want to keep NASL players from participating in those tournaments. If people want to drop from the NASL to enter conflicting foreign tournaments then force them to re-qualify for future NASL seasons the long way. To create an incentive to stay, those players who have secured a position for the next NASL season must only participate in NASL approved tournaments or else they forfeit their auto-qualification position in the next season and are forced to re-qualify the long way. (It would probably be in the NASL's best interest to approve a lot of tournaments in order to increase the popularity of their players)
Who knows. Just so long as they aren't just blocking Koreans from participating. I've no interest in supporting a tournament that thinks thats OK. I would be pissed as shit if Canadians couldn't participate, while everyone else in the world could. (poor Huk!)
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for NASL they should invite everyone.... but someone should set up a Team League, but for US v EU v korea v Sea regions. I think that would be pretty cooL
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On March 17 2011 19:03 vetinari wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 18:48 kaileah wrote:On March 17 2011 18:32 zerglingsfolife wrote:On March 17 2011 18:24 kaileah wrote:On March 17 2011 18:18 LeGeNDz wrote:
I don't think that only 5 koreans should be invited only, but because their skill level in general is assumed to be higher I would hate to see very few of the US players competing for a tournament in their own country. Most of us WANT to see our favorite NA players competing. So I say keep it half and half or so if the NA players cannot yet compete with the koreans.
Because this is a big tournament it will make the NA players strive to become more competive so eventually the NA players would/could be at an equal skill level as the koreans.
From a show business perspective, having top korean players competing would definitely be favorable as it would attract more viewers such as viewers even from Korea and EU. since the skill level of top koreans is so high more would want to watch them which would then keep e-sports prospering in America, which is what we all want, right? The main reason to shelter foreigners from the koreans currently being stated is for the foreign scene to grow in skill. However, how will the NASL specifically cause the foreigners to grow their game? Will they change their training habits? Join team houses? Find consistently top level training partners and play eight to ten hours a day? grind out builds and the timings? Before you say that the league will create an incentive, there have been many foreign dominated tournaments with large prize pools. The NASL shouldn't be necessary to create such an incentive because it should have been done long ago. If foreigners are sheltered but they remain the same in their training habits and are very noncomital to the game, then you're just giving lazy gamers (by korean standards) free money where as there are koreans who are constantly innovating the game, spending twelve hours a day practicing, and making starcraft their livelihood. it seems like many foreign players, such as cloud, pokebunny, to a degree avilo and blur as well as others, believe they've already done all they can to improve their game and that nothing more is possible. Despite all the arguing, none of the players who posted in this thread said anything about improving their training regiment and doing more or doing something about the lack of quality practice. So its a moot point about sheltering foreigners so they can catch up since, by Cloud's words, they've already done all they can and the western culture makes it impossible for them to do anything. the idea of 'protecting to improve the scene' is a bunch of garbage. the game hasn't even been out a year and the skill gap has been created. foreigners need a wake up call, not something that appeases their lackadaisical attitude towards the game. There are plenty of old players being motivated to come back and play in the NASL, that other tournaments were not able to do. The money is simply much more. In addition, the "semi-pro" people are suddenly looking at the NASL and thinking, this could actually be my job. you're assuming that old players and semi-pros would somehow change the scene. would the old players even be good enough in skill and get results in a league that has been repeatedly claiming invites will be chosen based on 'results results results popularity'? would these old players somehow revolutionize the practice regiment of the foreign scene? semi-pro players becoming full time players would mean nothing if the western scene's infrastructure is the same. going to sc2ranks, i notice that among the top point leaders, its the europeans that have massed the most games. Kas even has well over 4k games played. like cloud said, its not quantity but quality but the west has done nothing to address the fact. At one point, Korea was the same but they found ways to concentrate their best players together for 8+ hours daily to improve the quality of their play. its something that western players have totally given up on, blaming culture for making it impossible. what makes you think the nasl will instantly allow for the quality of practice / players / infrastructure to improve? one hundred thousand reasons. Fnatic, eg, root are starting western team houses. Because of the NASL. In the end, it comes down to money. Nobody is going to spend tens of thousands of dollars training for tournaments with 2000 dollar prize pools. It still makes me laugh when I hear "oh, MLG has a big prize!" "what is it?" "2500 dollars" "...".
not mlg but rather the iem / dreamhacks / assembly / etc. even before nasl, eg had their team house in arizona. all thats changed is that idra is back with them but he has the whole allen iverson "its just practice. who needs practice" mentality right now (citing zerg underpower) which most of the foreign scene holds universally. root was about having a teamhouse before the nasl and hopefully something about tlo and sweden or something. but you can't assume nasl -> these guys taking action but rather they did it because they wanted to. you forgot that fxo has also been comitted to a team house as well before nasl's announcement.
with that said, you're still thinking that they'll improve or change their practice regiment. read to the posts of pokebunny, avilo, cloud, and blur who believe that its culture's fault they can't succeed. i'm not worried about incontrol who is comitting his whole life to starcraft nor idra but rather the 'fringe' players who will be int his league over the koreans, those with such an attitude where they've already done everything they can. its not me trying to be malicious to them but rather want some form of comitment from western players rather than the defeatist attitude which then leaks into the whole "we're not as good as koreans" thing. even if its true, theres no "we'll catch up and we'll try" attitude which makes em believe things won't change much.
edit - much rather have players who consider the league as a way to become the best rather than a consolation league for second place players. leads to more competitive play and, for the foreigners who do commit, creates an environment to grow within the competitive environment.
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Well the poll result is obvious.
Best players should play (don't know why this is even worth debating, anything else would be a joke).
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On March 17 2011 19:19 Teivospy wrote:
for NASL they should invite everyone.... but someone should set up a Team League, but for US v EU v korea v Sea regions. I think that would be pretty cooL
deL already did.
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EPT
