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On March 17 2011 18:22 Salvarias wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 17:58 nihlon wrote:On March 17 2011 17:50 gogatorsfoster wrote:
Its a premiere league and it wants the best players. The NASL shouldnt care about race.
All of this no Korean talk is almost borderline racism All this talk about the "no Korean talk" being racism is borderline ridiculous. Are you suggesting the European championship in *pick your sport* is racist? Just because someone thinks the league should be limited to a certain region doesn't mean they are racists. Also most people recognize that Korean means "Korean based players" which have nothing to do with race. For the record I do not think we should prevent the Koreans to compete in the NASL but it so freaking annoying when people throw racism into the matter when it has nothing to do with. Same thing happened with Streloks interview for the TSL. Just because he questioned how the tournament format was he got called racist within a few pages... im sorry but you can't prevent only one country on the basic of them being koreans and nothing else, and at same time say it's not racism, if so you would have to say it was NA ONLY, prevently the rest of the SC scene including SEA and EU, exluding 1 country on the sole base that it's koreans as a people, is pure basic racism.
Did you even read my post? God...
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On March 17 2011 20:57 mcgriddle wrote:
From a small time frame perspective the fans will benefit the most with seeing the very best players in the world play. In the long-term , the non-koreans will benefit by participating with the best players. The synthesis of Koreans in to the world scene is comparable in benefits to Foreigners going to Korea to practice.
Except: if you get the korean without getting the infrastructure first for the non korean players, the korean players, with their team, sponsors and shit, will still be advantaged on the non korean players.
And do you think the sponsors will actually give money to the loosers ? No, they will sponsor the player that go far into the competition to maximise their brand's screen time.
So basically, the non korean players will stay weak because they will never be able to have enough resource to live together / have their own pro gaming house / train the same way korean does (except for a few gaming team like TLAF or EG who have personnality and an old history into gaming).
You first needs to help the foreigner scene lower the gap.
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On March 17 2011 21:04 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 20:57 mcgriddle wrote:
From a small time frame perspective the fans will benefit the most with seeing the very best players in the world play. In the long-term , the non-koreans will benefit by participating with the best players. The synthesis of Koreans in to the world scene is comparable in benefits to Foreigners going to Korea to practice. Except: if you get the korean without getting the infrastructure first for the non korean players, the korean players, with their team, sponsors and shit, will still be advantaged on the non korean players. And do you think the sponsors will actually give money to the loosers ? No, they will sponsor the player that go far into the competition to maximise their brand's screen time. So basically, the non korean players will stay weak because they will never be able to have enough resource to live together / have their own pro gaming house / train the same way korean does (except for a few gaming team like TLAF or EG who have personnality and an old history into gaming). You first needs to help the foreigner scene lower the gap.
And how does limiting the amounts of Koreans in NASL lower that infrastructure gap? Prize money is not enough to give you infrastructure - for a 5 player team where 1 would win NASL the prize money would probably only be enough for very few months, if that - real sponsors give you that, with real money. And you get those by getting viewers and exposure, and you get that by the highest level of play.
In the end invite limitations are not a problem as long as any player anywhere can compete to qualify in the online qualifiers and those aren't BO1s.
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On March 17 2011 21:04 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 20:57 mcgriddle wrote:
From a small time frame perspective the fans will benefit the most with seeing the very best players in the world play. In the long-term , the non-koreans will benefit by participating with the best players. The synthesis of Koreans in to the world scene is comparable in benefits to Foreigners going to Korea to practice. Except: if you get the korean without getting the infrastructure first for the non korean players, the korean players, with their team, sponsors and shit, will still be advantaged on the non korean players. And do you think the sponsors will actually give money to the loosers ? No, they will sponsor the player that go far into the competition to maximise their brand's screen time. So basically, the non korean players will stay weak because they will never be able to have enough resource to live together / have their own pro gaming house / train the same way korean does (except for a few gaming team like TLAF or EG who have personnality and an old history into gaming). You first needs to help the foreigner scene lower the gap.
I dont think that would be the case, unless you have such little faith in our north american pro gamers that you think they cant take any games of the koreans, if so then this league will probably fail anyways just due to the fact that the skill level isnt high enough to be taken seriously.
Im not saying koreans wont do better in the begining, but i dont want a amateur gamer in the NASL anyways i want someone who has the ability to practice 12 hours a day from season 1. By accepting only serious pro gamers into the league including koreans it legitimizes the league and if the players can practice that much i dont see any reason why they wouldnt beable to adapt to the korean play style and take some games or some tournaments off of top tier korean players.
I think sponsors will give money to players or teams of the players who preform well and cause hype like "OMG so and so took the semi finals from nestea" and now suddenly that player and that team are getting lots of attention because of all the hype, as of now korean players or players playing in the gsl are more well known in general adding them to the league will only attract more attention from sponsors and player alike not less.
I think alot of TSL3's hype is the korean invitees facing off against the best that na/eu has to offer, thats why im extremely excited about it :D
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On March 17 2011 21:27 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 21:04 WhiteDog wrote:On March 17 2011 20:57 mcgriddle wrote:
From a small time frame perspective the fans will benefit the most with seeing the very best players in the world play. In the long-term , the non-koreans will benefit by participating with the best players. The synthesis of Koreans in to the world scene is comparable in benefits to Foreigners going to Korea to practice. Except: if you get the korean without getting the infrastructure first for the non korean players, the korean players, with their team, sponsors and shit, will still be advantaged on the non korean players. And do you think the sponsors will actually give money to the loosers ? No, they will sponsor the player that go far into the competition to maximise their brand's screen time. So basically, the non korean players will stay weak because they will never be able to have enough resource to live together / have their own pro gaming house / train the same way korean does (except for a few gaming team like TLAF or EG who have personnality and an old history into gaming). You first needs to help the foreigner scene lower the gap. I dont think that would be the case, unless you have such little faith in our north american pro gamers that you think they cant take any games of the koreans, if so then this league will probably fail anyways just due to the fact that the skill level isnt high enough to be taken seriously. Im not saying koreans wont do better in the begining, but i dont want a amateur gamer in the NASL anyways i want someone who has the ability to practice 12 hours a day from season 1. By accepting only serious pro gamers into the league including koreans it legitimizes the league and if the players can practice that much i dont see any reason why they wouldnt beable to adapt to the korean play style and take some games or some tournaments off of top tier korean players. I think sponsors will give money to players or teams of the players who preform well and cause hype like "OMG so and so took the semi finals from nestea" and now suddenly that player and that team are getting lots of attention because of all the hype, as of now korean players or players playing in the gsl are more well known in general adding them to the league will only attract more attention from sponsors and player alike not less. I think alot of TSL3's hype is the korean invitees facing off against the best that na/eu has to offer, thats why im extremely excited about it :D
The western scene IS amateur. You need to understand this. A professional gamer is one who trains and competes for a living. Almost all of the western scene is composed of people who either work part/full time, study at university/school or rely on starcraft coaching for a sizeable chunk of their income. These players are amateurs or semi-pro at best. There are not many exceptions. There is simply not enough money in the western scene to support actual professional gaming.
This is also part of the reason why foreign team houses never happened until recently. If you depend on coaching, work, or parents/scholarships for income, you can't just move to a team house in another country or city and start practicing. You need to finish school/transfer to another school, convince family to fund you, find another job, aquire pupils all over again. There are a great many logistical issues that people ignore, in favour of: just do it. Pro-gamers gotta eat too. But there is more money in sc2 than there ever was in BW, and people are willing to take risks, if there is some expected payoff. But not when there is none.
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On March 17 2011 20:55 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 17:44 vetinari wrote:
Brian:
Even avilo and pokebunny don't agree with an outright banning of koreans. Like me, they feel that korean participation should be sharply limited, in order to better facilitate the development of the western scene. Myself for purely altruistic reasons, them because they hope to one day compete in the NASL. FIFA obviously agrees with our logic.
Avilo still doesnt have a team so hes being a bit delusional as the invites stop after season 1 and he still isnt on a team wich is a requirement for the NASL
Avilo is sponsored which is the requirement for NASL you don't have to be on a 'Team' per se.
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On March 17 2011 20:57 Boundless wrote:
I'd probably only set one restriction:
1) To qualify and play in the NASL, a player must play all his/her matches in North America.
So you want to leave out all the Europeans as well as Koreans?
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koreans aren't unbeatable, so i think its fine to have a couple koreans in the NASL. however, if I wanted to watch JUST koreans then I would watch the GSL. I think that the tournament should still be mostly non-koreans.
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On March 17 2011 17:22 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 15:48 avilo wrote:
Actually, I think a lot of people would rather the tournament not have been auto-invite/elitist in the first place.
And how hard is it for people to understand that NA needs to catch up to korea? Do other countries that need to catch up to the USA in basketball just try and bring every U.S. player to their country and just watch the Americans play all day? No. They start their own leagues.
Some of the better foreign players do go join the NBA though, just like what happens with foreigners going to korea for SC.
How would it be attractive to sponsors as well in North America, land of football and mcdonalds, if the league has the 50 best koreans in it and barely any north americans? Can you imagine any big U.S. corporations wanting to sponsor that league when they already have their own bias's and pre-conceived notions about video games in the first place?
NA = North America. That doesn't mean koreans should be excluded, they should be welcomed. But it shouldn't be the opposite extreme that some people seem to think would be good, where it's just all koreans owning up NASL. Well, in commenting on your basketball examples, do you think the euro-basketball leagues and their owners don't want US talent over there? They do, they've tried to get US players to join their leagues, they just can't afford any higher tier talent and would still only have access to free-agents because of NBA contracts. If they could, they'd bring in the best of the best for basketball. The problem is their basketball clubs are privately owned and personally funded. Since we're talking about European sports, why not look at another shining example that blows a hole straight through any argument you just made, football (soccer)? They bring in players from everywhere to their teams because they value skill, can afford it, and as a result, have a collection of massively popular leagues with the best talent in the world. People from all over the world love teams like FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC Milan, etc. The more I read your arguments, the more unreasonable they get and the more tempted I am to just side with those calling out your biases. US sponsors discriminating based on race? You're missing the point entirely on the whole business structure. You sponsor people who help you advertise your brand. When you're talking about a player with the fame of Nada or BoxeR, race does not matter because it didn't matter when they captivated and captured the loyalty of thousands if not millions of nerds. Their PLAY was what mattered because that is what they were judged on and what ultimately earns them exposure and respect. These are MULTINATIONAL corporations we are talking about. You seriously think they'd rather sponsor someone like EG_IdrA than someone like SlayerS_BoxeR because of appearance and race? Where is IdrA's massive sponsorship from Intel if that's the case? If BW was in the place of SC2, you think sponsors would shy away from sponsoring Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu if they were thinking about attending a tournament on US soil? It's about sponsoring individuals who appeal to the international audience you are trying to sell to. The majority of the massive pool of gamers doesn't care about race. When you're talking about the fanbase for something like Football and Basketball, then race obviously matters a bit more because of the audience.
Holy shit. How hard is this for you and people to understand? It's not about race. Why the hell would big companies want to put fucktons of money to a niche thing in the USA if people in the USA end up not interested in said niche thing?
Some people here live in this exciting dream world of the future of e-sports where everything and everyone has rainbows shooting out of their asses.
It's not about race, it's about viewability in North America. Does the average american slob want to turn on their TV and watch football on ESPN, or would they rather turn on ESPN and watch "random asian dudes own white guys." The answer is very obvious there.
People need to stop saying there is racism involved. It's called starting a business. Now, I am in agreement that the best players should play, but if that were the case as I mentioned before, they would have done completely un-biased qualifiers where the best players will earn their way in.
As is, they are hand picking 50 people. You have to be one of those lucky few ordained into the tournament, whether you are GSL champ, or anyone else.
There has to be something established in North America with long term viability and viewability, and that ideally attracts big business people. People posting here are not getting the point. I'm not racist. And you are not racist.
But the average viewer that will ever possibly tune into this type of niche thing, assuming anyone ever wants SC on TV in North America, well...they may not be racist, but they also will be entirely uninterested if it's a "circle jerk" of koreans owning up the league 24/7, or a "circle jerk" of auto-invited in-crowders.
I think that's what people are not really getting here...of course all of us on teamliquid would watch the NASL no matter what, but the NASL isn't about getting us to watch - we're all already probably going to. It's about getting NA viewers to want to watch.
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On March 17 2011 22:46 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 17:22 Brian333 wrote:On March 17 2011 15:48 avilo wrote:
Actually, I think a lot of people would rather the tournament not have been auto-invite/elitist in the first place.
And how hard is it for people to understand that NA needs to catch up to korea? Do other countries that need to catch up to the USA in basketball just try and bring every U.S. player to their country and just watch the Americans play all day? No. They start their own leagues.
Some of the better foreign players do go join the NBA though, just like what happens with foreigners going to korea for SC.
How would it be attractive to sponsors as well in North America, land of football and mcdonalds, if the league has the 50 best koreans in it and barely any north americans? Can you imagine any big U.S. corporations wanting to sponsor that league when they already have their own bias's and pre-conceived notions about video games in the first place?
NA = North America. That doesn't mean koreans should be excluded, they should be welcomed. But it shouldn't be the opposite extreme that some people seem to think would be good, where it's just all koreans owning up NASL. Well, in commenting on your basketball examples, do you think the euro-basketball leagues and their owners don't want US talent over there? They do, they've tried to get US players to join their leagues, they just can't afford any higher tier talent and would still only have access to free-agents because of NBA contracts. If they could, they'd bring in the best of the best for basketball. The problem is their basketball clubs are privately owned and personally funded. Since we're talking about European sports, why not look at another shining example that blows a hole straight through any argument you just made, football (soccer)? They bring in players from everywhere to their teams because they value skill, can afford it, and as a result, have a collection of massively popular leagues with the best talent in the world. People from all over the world love teams like FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC Milan, etc. The more I read your arguments, the more unreasonable they get and the more tempted I am to just side with those calling out your biases. US sponsors discriminating based on race? You're missing the point entirely on the whole business structure. You sponsor people who help you advertise your brand. When you're talking about a player with the fame of Nada or BoxeR, race does not matter because it didn't matter when they captivated and captured the loyalty of thousands if not millions of nerds. Their PLAY was what mattered because that is what they were judged on and what ultimately earns them exposure and respect. These are MULTINATIONAL corporations we are talking about. You seriously think they'd rather sponsor someone like EG_IdrA than someone like SlayerS_BoxeR because of appearance and race? Where is IdrA's massive sponsorship from Intel if that's the case? If BW was in the place of SC2, you think sponsors would shy away from sponsoring Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu if they were thinking about attending a tournament on US soil? It's about sponsoring individuals who appeal to the international audience you are trying to sell to. The majority of the massive pool of gamers doesn't care about race. When you're talking about the fanbase for something like Football and Basketball, then race obviously matters a bit more because of the audience. Holy shit. How hard is this for you and people to understand? It's not about race. Why the hell would big companies want to put fucktons of money to a niche thing in the USA if people in the USA end up not interested in said niche thing? Some people here live in this exciting dream world of the future of e-sports where everything and everyone has rainbows shooting out of their asses. It's not about race, it's about viewability in North America. Does the average american slob want to turn on their TV and watch football on ESPN, or would they rather turn on ESPN and watch "random asian dudes own white guys." The answer is very obvious there. People need to stop saying there is racism involved. It's called starting a business. Now, I am in agreement that the best players should play, but if that were the case as I mentioned before, they would have done completely un-biased qualifiers where the best players will earn their way in. As is, they are hand picking 50 people. You have to be one of those lucky few ordained into the tournament, whether you are GSL champ, or anyone else. There has to be something established in North America with long term viability and viewability, and that ideally attracts big business people. People posting here are not getting the point. I'm not racist. And you are not racist. But the average viewer that will ever possibly tune into this type of niche thing, assuming anyone ever wants SC on TV in North America, well...they may not be racist, but they also will be entirely uninterested if it's a "circle jerk" of koreans owning up the league 24/7, or a "circle jerk" of auto-invited in-crowders. I think that's what people are not really getting here...of course all of us on teamliquid would watch the NASL no matter what, but the NASL isn't about getting us to watch - we're all already probably going to. It's about getting NA viewers to want to watch.
It's not about getting NA viewers to watch. It's about getting world viewers to watch. Why else would they be so concerned with broadcasting in diferent timezones to please everyone when not even global tournamentos do that? Unless they release an official statement regarding that, this all by americans for americans seems bullshit to me.
I also fail to see how a business that attracts only americans would be better than one that aims for people all over the world, or at least all western world, specially when the current sponsors are definatelly not local.
Maybe it's an american thing, but I really don't undestand what's bad about players that are not american. We watch better leagues in diferent countries and have no problems at all with that. Many people actually prefer it that way. When we are able to face the "scary powerful europeans", it's always full of hype and one of the most exciting moments of the year. You could really say it's close to what foreign vs koreans mean in SC2. We also love foreign players in our teams. Players from Argentina or other south american countries attract a great deal of attention, even from sponsors. Europeans would be even better, but unfortunatelly are a rare sight. Some of our greates sports idols are foreign. When everyone looks the same it's borings, diferences are always fun.
Also, there is no other regular tournament that mixes koreans and foreigners. GSL is all korean. We have a tournament here or there where they bring a few koreans, but a tournament with all foreigners and 10 koreans would not be another GSL.
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On March 17 2011 22:46 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 17:22 Brian333 wrote:On March 17 2011 15:48 avilo wrote:
Actually, I think a lot of people would rather the tournament not have been auto-invite/elitist in the first place.
And how hard is it for people to understand that NA needs to catch up to korea? Do other countries that need to catch up to the USA in basketball just try and bring every U.S. player to their country and just watch the Americans play all day? No. They start their own leagues.
Some of the better foreign players do go join the NBA though, just like what happens with foreigners going to korea for SC.
How would it be attractive to sponsors as well in North America, land of football and mcdonalds, if the league has the 50 best koreans in it and barely any north americans? Can you imagine any big U.S. corporations wanting to sponsor that league when they already have their own bias's and pre-conceived notions about video games in the first place?
NA = North America. That doesn't mean koreans should be excluded, they should be welcomed. But it shouldn't be the opposite extreme that some people seem to think would be good, where it's just all koreans owning up NASL. Well, in commenting on your basketball examples, do you think the euro-basketball leagues and their owners don't want US talent over there? They do, they've tried to get US players to join their leagues, they just can't afford any higher tier talent and would still only have access to free-agents because of NBA contracts. If they could, they'd bring in the best of the best for basketball. The problem is their basketball clubs are privately owned and personally funded. Since we're talking about European sports, why not look at another shining example that blows a hole straight through any argument you just made, football (soccer)? They bring in players from everywhere to their teams because they value skill, can afford it, and as a result, have a collection of massively popular leagues with the best talent in the world. People from all over the world love teams like FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC Milan, etc. The more I read your arguments, the more unreasonable they get and the more tempted I am to just side with those calling out your biases. US sponsors discriminating based on race? You're missing the point entirely on the whole business structure. You sponsor people who help you advertise your brand. When you're talking about a player with the fame of Nada or BoxeR, race does not matter because it didn't matter when they captivated and captured the loyalty of thousands if not millions of nerds. Their PLAY was what mattered because that is what they were judged on and what ultimately earns them exposure and respect. These are MULTINATIONAL corporations we are talking about. You seriously think they'd rather sponsor someone like EG_IdrA than someone like SlayerS_BoxeR because of appearance and race? Where is IdrA's massive sponsorship from Intel if that's the case? If BW was in the place of SC2, you think sponsors would shy away from sponsoring Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu if they were thinking about attending a tournament on US soil? It's about sponsoring individuals who appeal to the international audience you are trying to sell to. The majority of the massive pool of gamers doesn't care about race. When you're talking about the fanbase for something like Football and Basketball, then race obviously matters a bit more because of the audience. Holy shit. How hard is this for you and people to understand? It's not about race. Why the hell would big companies want to put fucktons of money to a niche thing in the USA if people in the USA end up not interested in said niche thing? Some people here live in this exciting dream world of the future of e-sports where everything and everyone has rainbows shooting out of their asses. It's not about race, it's about viewability in North America. Does the average american slob want to turn on their TV and watch football on ESPN, or would they rather turn on ESPN and watch "random asian dudes own white guys." The answer is very obvious there. People need to stop saying there is racism involved. It's called starting a business. Now, I am in agreement that the best players should play, but if that were the case as I mentioned before, they would have done completely un-biased qualifiers where the best players will earn their way in. As is, they are hand picking 50 people. You have to be one of those lucky few ordained into the tournament, whether you are GSL champ, or anyone else. There has to be something established in North America with long term viability and viewability, and that ideally attracts big business people. People posting here are not getting the point. I'm not racist. And you are not racist. But the average viewer that will ever possibly tune into this type of niche thing, assuming anyone ever wants SC on TV in North America, well...they may not be racist, but they also will be entirely uninterested if it's a "circle jerk" of koreans owning up the league 24/7, or a "circle jerk" of auto-invited in-crowders. I think that's what people are not really getting here...of course all of us on teamliquid would watch the NASL no matter what, but the NASL isn't about getting us to watch - we're all already probably going to. It's about getting NA viewers to want to watch.
There is a simple way to test if that is true: see which tournaments attract bigger western audiences. Let's compare GSL to MLG. Or GSL to BDL. Or GSL to any of the daily online tournaments in which a ton of top EU/NA pros participate. Which one do you think comes on top in terms of viewership? I think it's clear that GSL is the answer. In pure business terms, people simply want to see the BEST, not just the best white guys.
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On March 17 2011 23:00 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 22:46 avilo wrote:On March 17 2011 17:22 Brian333 wrote:On March 17 2011 15:48 avilo wrote:
Actually, I think a lot of people would rather the tournament not have been auto-invite/elitist in the first place.
And how hard is it for people to understand that NA needs to catch up to korea? Do other countries that need to catch up to the USA in basketball just try and bring every U.S. player to their country and just watch the Americans play all day? No. They start their own leagues.
Some of the better foreign players do go join the NBA though, just like what happens with foreigners going to korea for SC.
How would it be attractive to sponsors as well in North America, land of football and mcdonalds, if the league has the 50 best koreans in it and barely any north americans? Can you imagine any big U.S. corporations wanting to sponsor that league when they already have their own bias's and pre-conceived notions about video games in the first place?
NA = North America. That doesn't mean koreans should be excluded, they should be welcomed. But it shouldn't be the opposite extreme that some people seem to think would be good, where it's just all koreans owning up NASL. Well, in commenting on your basketball examples, do you think the euro-basketball leagues and their owners don't want US talent over there? They do, they've tried to get US players to join their leagues, they just can't afford any higher tier talent and would still only have access to free-agents because of NBA contracts. If they could, they'd bring in the best of the best for basketball. The problem is their basketball clubs are privately owned and personally funded. Since we're talking about European sports, why not look at another shining example that blows a hole straight through any argument you just made, football (soccer)? They bring in players from everywhere to their teams because they value skill, can afford it, and as a result, have a collection of massively popular leagues with the best talent in the world. People from all over the world love teams like FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC Milan, etc. The more I read your arguments, the more unreasonable they get and the more tempted I am to just side with those calling out your biases. US sponsors discriminating based on race? You're missing the point entirely on the whole business structure. You sponsor people who help you advertise your brand. When you're talking about a player with the fame of Nada or BoxeR, race does not matter because it didn't matter when they captivated and captured the loyalty of thousands if not millions of nerds. Their PLAY was what mattered because that is what they were judged on and what ultimately earns them exposure and respect. These are MULTINATIONAL corporations we are talking about. You seriously think they'd rather sponsor someone like EG_IdrA than someone like SlayerS_BoxeR because of appearance and race? Where is IdrA's massive sponsorship from Intel if that's the case? If BW was in the place of SC2, you think sponsors would shy away from sponsoring Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu if they were thinking about attending a tournament on US soil? It's about sponsoring individuals who appeal to the international audience you are trying to sell to. The majority of the massive pool of gamers doesn't care about race. When you're talking about the fanbase for something like Football and Basketball, then race obviously matters a bit more because of the audience. Holy shit. How hard is this for you and people to understand? It's not about race. Why the hell would big companies want to put fucktons of money to a niche thing in the USA if people in the USA end up not interested in said niche thing? Some people here live in this exciting dream world of the future of e-sports where everything and everyone has rainbows shooting out of their asses. It's not about race, it's about viewability in North America. Does the average american slob want to turn on their TV and watch football on ESPN, or would they rather turn on ESPN and watch "random asian dudes own white guys." The answer is very obvious there. People need to stop saying there is racism involved. It's called starting a business. Now, I am in agreement that the best players should play, but if that were the case as I mentioned before, they would have done completely un-biased qualifiers where the best players will earn their way in. As is, they are hand picking 50 people. You have to be one of those lucky few ordained into the tournament, whether you are GSL champ, or anyone else. There has to be something established in North America with long term viability and viewability, and that ideally attracts big business people. People posting here are not getting the point. I'm not racist. And you are not racist. But the average viewer that will ever possibly tune into this type of niche thing, assuming anyone ever wants SC on TV in North America, well...they may not be racist, but they also will be entirely uninterested if it's a "circle jerk" of koreans owning up the league 24/7, or a "circle jerk" of auto-invited in-crowders. I think that's what people are not really getting here...of course all of us on teamliquid would watch the NASL no matter what, but the NASL isn't about getting us to watch - we're all already probably going to. It's about getting NA viewers to want to watch. It's not about getting NA viewers to watch. It's about getting world viewers to watch. Why else would they be so concerned with broadcasting in diferent timezones to please everyone when not even global tournamentos do that? Unless they release an official statement regarding that, this all by americans for americans seems bullshit to me. I also fail to see how a business that attracts only americans would be better than one that aims for people all over the world, or at least all western world, specially when the current sponsors are definatelly not local. Maybe it's an american thing, but I really don't undestand what's bad about players that are not american. We watch better leagues in diferent countries and have no problems at all with that. Many people actually prefer it that way. When we are able to face the "scary powerful europeans", it's always full of hype and one of the most exciting moments of the year. You could really say it's close to what foreign vs koreans mean in SC2. We also love foreign players in our teams. Players from Argentina or other south american countries attract a great deal of attention, even from sponsors. Europeans would be even better, but unfortunatelly are a rare sight. Some of our greates sports idols are foreign. When everyone looks the same it's borings, diferences are always fun.
Well, obviously and ideally people globally will watch it. I was more referring to the end goal that I believe xeris said in an interview of: "NASL on ESPN." So obviously it is a lot about getting NA viewers to watch...
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On March 17 2011 22:46 avilo wrote:
It's not about race, it's about viewability in North America. Does the average american slob want to turn on their TV and watch football on ESPN, or would they rather turn on ESPN and watch "random asian dudes own white guys." The answer is very obvious there.
First off, I don't understand the argument that says "it's not about race, but white guys don't want to see Asians beat white people".
Second of all, SC2 doesn't really have viewability for the average american.
Lastly, lots of people and attend and watch the LPGA tour, which is largely "random Asian chicks own white chicks". Latin Americans dominate Major League Baseball, the Negro Leagues are long gone. Some of the best NBA players have European roots. Arguable the best player in the NHL is Russian. There are similar examples in popular sports and entertainment in North America that you can figure out yourself.
You're correct that Americans don't care about race. They want to see the best. To me, any argument that argues the logic of excluding "Koreans" goes against this.
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I simply dont get it, why people wouldn't want koreans in the NASL. First of all, the name NASL sucks tbh. Because nobody gives a damn about why European players can get in, but everybody gets all flamy when it comes down to koreans. Why the fuck? If u invite Europeans, then u have to let koreans in, too. If u don't, it's simply not fair and maybe because of the whole ''OLO WE AMERICANS GET OWNED BY KOREANS, DONT LET EM IN PLX''. The very first post from Jinro in here was clearly saying everything.
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On March 17 2011 23:09 Saragas wrote:
I simply dont get it, why people wouldn't want koreans in the NASL. First of all, the name NASL sucks tbh. Because nobody gives a damn about why European players can get in, but everybody gets all flamy when it comes down to koreans. Why the fuck? If u invite Europeans, then u have to let koreans in, too. If u don't, it's simply not fair and maybe because of the whole ''OLO WE AMERICANS GET OWNED BY KOREANS, DONT LET EM IN PLX''. The very first post from Jinro in here was clearly saying everything.
What the hell are you talking about? Why does inviting Europeans mean u have to invite koreans?
Edit: I think we should invite some koreans, but I just don't follow ur logic at all.
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On March 17 2011 23:13 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 23:09 Saragas wrote:
I simply dont get it, why people wouldn't want koreans in the NASL. First of all, the name NASL sucks tbh. Because nobody gives a damn about why European players can get in, but everybody gets all flamy when it comes down to koreans. Why the fuck? If u invite Europeans, then u have to let koreans in, too. If u don't, it's simply not fair and maybe because of the whole ''OLO WE AMERICANS GET OWNED BY KOREANS, DONT LET EM IN PLX''. The very first post from Jinro in here was clearly saying everything. What the hell are you talking about? Why does inviting Europeans mean u have to invite koreans? Edit: I think we should invite some koreans, but I just don't follow ur logic at all.
What's the difference between American's getting stomped by Europeans(which will happen) and Americans getting stomped by Koreans(which will happen)? If people are making an argument that no one wants to see Koreans dominate then the same argument could be made that an American audience doesn't want to see Russians/Ukranians/Swedes dominate either.
In the end people will see if NASL is discriminating. Those open qualifiers for the second season will be very, very, very interesting.
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On March 17 2011 22:46 avilo wrote:
It's not about race, it's about viewability in North America. Does the average american slob want to turn on their TV and watch football on ESPN, or would they rather turn on ESPN and watch "random asian dudes own white guys." The answer is very obvious there.
our viewers are racist so we gotta cater to them, herp DERP! i see what you did there...
we should exclude fat and ugly gamers then by that logic...
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On March 17 2011 23:23 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 23:13 zerglingsfolife wrote:On March 17 2011 23:09 Saragas wrote:
I simply dont get it, why people wouldn't want koreans in the NASL. First of all, the name NASL sucks tbh. Because nobody gives a damn about why European players can get in, but everybody gets all flamy when it comes down to koreans. Why the fuck? If u invite Europeans, then u have to let koreans in, too. If u don't, it's simply not fair and maybe because of the whole ''OLO WE AMERICANS GET OWNED BY KOREANS, DONT LET EM IN PLX''. The very first post from Jinro in here was clearly saying everything. What the hell are you talking about? Why does inviting Europeans mean u have to invite koreans? Edit: I think we should invite some koreans, but I just don't follow ur logic at all. What's the difference between American's getting stomped by Europeans(which will happen) and Americans getting stomped by Koreans(which will happen)? If people are making an argument that no one wants to see Koreans dominate then the same argument could be made that an American audience doesn't want to see Russians/Ukranians/Swedes dominate either. In the end people will see if NASL is discriminating. Those open qualifiers for the second season will be very, very, very interesting.
When have they ever said anything about a quota for European players? The only news I've seen about a limit was incontrols interview with g4tv in which he talked about a limit of 5 koreans, but now it sounds like they may increase that. One big reason for the limit was the latency which will happen when playing KR to NA, which is not nearly as bad NA to EU. Another reason is that NA and EU players have always been grouped together as foreigners since as long as Korea has had a pro scene, and therefor better qualify practice. Who has even bitched about European players? Wtf
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On March 17 2011 23:13 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 23:09 Saragas wrote:
I simply dont get it, why people wouldn't want koreans in the NASL. First of all, the name NASL sucks tbh. Because nobody gives a damn about why European players can get in, but everybody gets all flamy when it comes down to koreans. Why the fuck? If u invite Europeans, then u have to let koreans in, too. If u don't, it's simply not fair and maybe because of the whole ''OLO WE AMERICANS GET OWNED BY KOREANS, DONT LET EM IN PLX''. The very first post from Jinro in here was clearly saying everything. What the hell are you talking about? Why does inviting Europeans mean u have to invite koreans? Edit: I think we should invite some koreans, but I just don't follow ur logic at all.
Read it again. Im critical about that whole debate about koreans in NASL. Some people dont want koreans, because its called NORTH AMERICAN Star League. Ims aying, that if they dont want to see koreans because of that, then why do they want europeans? They are clearly no americans either lol
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I think it will be good for the viewership if a bit of national pride is involved.
I certainly get hyped in non-korean vs korean games. :-)
off topic: TSL 3 will be awesome \o/
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EPT
