EPTNASL does not need and should not have players who are in GSL Code S and they should have very few players who are in GSL Code A.
NASL: Koreans? Top Koreans? - Page 74
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Pudge_172
United States1378 Posts
NASL does not need and should not have players who are in GSL Code S and they should have very few players who are in GSL Code A. | ||
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Poo
Canada536 Posts
Invite the very best players in the world even if that means very few NA and EU players in the NASL (1553) You'd figure to grow e-sports outside of korea there would have to be quite a different outcome! You'd need to promote more NA/EU players while mixing Koreans in (And I assume this is exactly what the NASL will probably do?). To make e-sports big in NA for ex.. you'd need north-americans playing in it.. I couldn't see it becoming very main-stream with purely/majority of foreign koreans playing.. | ||
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Kazang
578 Posts
On March 17 2011 04:43 Liquid`Tyler wrote: This sucks because SC2 seems to be worse in every way compared to SC1. For example, if I'm playing on KR server, and if my opponent and I give a command simultaneously, his command happens first. In this way, our games are out of sync. We do things at different times depending on our latency to the server. This isn't the case with SC1. Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game. Also in SC2, it's possible for the game to momentarily freeze and then skip ahead for one player, but for the other player to have a smooth experience the whole time. It's just really disappointing because SC:BW was designed mainly for dial-up modems. As connections improved, Blizzard did nothing, but fans were able to make adjustments to take advantage of our internet connections. And then SC2 comes out and I'm thinking it'll be nice to not have to use third party programs anymore. But then they totally sacrificed the quality of long distance connections, which kinda blew my mind with how much PR they had about building SC2 for esports. NA to NA and EU to EU and KR to KR all provide excellent online experiences but they must have known that SC2 as an esport would require good connections cross continent =[[[ Well here is the rub. SC1/BW used a different type of netcode. Basically when you issue a command, the unit does it on your client then it sends what that unit did to the server, server then sends it to the other player. Yes your actions have instant effect on your screen, but your opponent doesn't see your action until the 200+ ms later. This is better in a perfect environment, with 0 latency, and can even appear fine in high latency, but the reality is there is a difference in sync. You have the illusion of zero latency, but behind the scenes that is not the case. With the way SC1 played this wasn't greatly noticeable, the biggest example I can think of right now is if a reaver is sniped a moment after you saw it fire, you see the scarab fly and hit something, but your opponent had actually already killed that reaver the spilt second before it fired and thus the scarab appears to hit and do nothing, that scarab never existed on the server, only on your screen. That is pretty much the most exaggerated example I can think of. SC2 uses a "what you see is what you get" style. The actual game runs on the server, not on the local client, unit interaction happens on the server and it relays the results to the clients, which displays what happens and handles input. When you issue a command, you send that command first to the server, server verifies it and relays it back to all players, the client then shows the units moving. So you see and feel the slight delay. This is subject to lag compensation and the game client tries to predict actions to make it look and feel as smooth as possible on your screen, so in a low latency environment you will never get absolutely perfect responsiveness due to the latency with the server, but it will always be consistent and always near (but never perfectly) optimal. The later method is actually much better than the former, although it sometimes doesn't feel that way. It's the optimal system for standard levels of latency that you get within a country/continent, but unfortunately it scales very badly the more you increase the latency because then you get a noticeable delay that client side lag compensation cannot help so much with. Blizzard can't change the laws of physics, there will always be a delay playing online, and for what it is b.net does a really awesome job of minimizing the problems of non local play while keeping the game stable and secure(from the piracy and cheating aspect). I honestly think we should just accept the fact that playing across such long distances isn't optimal and keep tournaments local enough so that latency is not an issue. Fighting and FPS game communities accept that you can't really play online if you are being serious about it, where a player physically is does matter unfortunately. My argument for not including "Koreans"(by that i mean people not able to play with low latency on the NA server) is simply a matter of geography. Having cross region play seems silly. Why not have regional brackets to solve the whole issue instead of forcing players to play in laggy conditions? EU to Korea is even worse than NA to Korea, EU to NA is not exactly awesome either. If it's going to be a global league, having regional divisions and qualifiers for the offline tournament makes the most sense. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:03 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote: You do realize that just getting their faces smashed in by Koreans repeatedly isn't going to make them better by osmosis or something, right? Until the North American/European scene finds a way to motivate players to take up the Korean practice regimen and make it fiscally possible, it will always fall behind, I don't care if there are 5 or 15 or 50 Koreans in the NASL. That was/is the problem with BW, and that is why players are falling behind again in SC2 now. Koreans aren't wired to "do better" at SC2, it's not "in their blood," as evidenced by Jinro and IdrA both making it deep into GSLs. They just have the availability to make a living by playing the game and solely focusing on the game. In a sense, it would be better for Koreans to NOT be able to participate at ALL in NASL, because that would make damn sure the prize money fell into the hands of NA/EU players who could then potentially afford to practice constantly and improve at the rate the Koreans are improving. The practice houses being established are a great step in the right direction, but if they still have to work to pay rent and electricity and all of their other bills, then they're being hindered in a way that the Koreans are not. Where the fuck did I say any of that? Allowing Koreans in the NASL will give them the motivation to take up the Korean practice regimen. It's what I've been saying this whole thread. Once again, if they don't have any competition against the Koreans, they will never be motivated to adopt the means necessary to compete with them. Never have I said Koreans are wired to be better. This whole thread I've been saying how NA/EU players can be better than Koreans if they train properly. Jinro, Huk, Idra and etc are showing that with their strong performances in the GSL. And thats because they are training properly. I think the NASL is the first real avenue to give NA/EU players the motivation they need to get really serious about sc2. It will raise the level of play without Koreans just because of how serious the league is. But it will not raise it to the level of the Koreans if they're aren't any in the league. Not because playing a couple of games against them will make them magically better (although it will help especially since they could be playing multiple games against multiple Koreans). But because they will be motivated to practice more and play more against great players all over the world. | ||
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raf3776
United States1904 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:44 Pudge_172 wrote: If Major League Soccer had all the players in the Premier League, they by default wouldn't be playing in the Premier League. NASL does not need and should not have players who are in GSL Code S and they should have very few players who are in GSL Code A. So that means no idra, jinro, or huk? or if you want code A as well, haypro, ret, moonglade, tlo (who qualified for code a but left) | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:02 goiflin wrote: That's an excuse for an indie dev, not a company that runs world of warcraft. ...it's not reasonable to expect blizz to run SC2 at a loss and subsidize it with WoW profits... Why even bother to make SC2 to begin with if that was the case? Just for shits and giggles? Just because they love esports? Yeah, try selling that one to the board of directors and the investors who actually make SC2 possible. The money required to run the SC2 side of b.net needs to be funded by SC2 sales and/or other SC2 related profits. Otherwise a esports quality game isn't financially viable to develop, not for blizzard or anyone else. It's really frustrating how negative so many people are towards blizz, when they made the whole fucking field we are playing on. Without them, SC would not exist, simple as that. No one is stopping anyone from making a esports worthy, brood war-esque RTS game. Least of all blizz. So if they are doing such a terrible job, it shouldn't be too difficult for someone else to just go and make a better game. | ||
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KoshkaTV
United States430 Posts
If the best players in Korea can commit to the LAN dates and portions of the NASL, it is plain wrong to exclude them. It may be "right" in a reality TV sense, but in a competitive sense it is wrong. It is non-competitive. By that logic, they should exclude the best European players too. Being cowardly and potentially racist is no way to represent NA. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:44 Pudge_172 wrote: If Major League Soccer had all the players in the Premier League, they by default wouldn't be playing in the Premier League. NASL does not need and should not have players who are in GSL Code S and they should have very few players who are in GSL Code A. Exactly, in soccer it isn't possible, but if it was you know they would certainly be trying to get the players in both leagues. Adding Code S players legitimizes and raises the level of this tournament, like Tyler said. | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:42 cheesemaster wrote: Thats not really that fair of an assesment , I agree that maybe NA/Eu players would benefit more fromm having the money as they are not supported as well by their teams. That doesnt mean that they should shy away fromm having the best competition in the world just because it would benefit white people more, that sounds terrible actually. GSL has done so much to try and include foreigners into their scene even having a pro gaming house where foreigners can practice in a korean like gaming house. I honestly dont want to see any non pro gamers in the NASL wich is to say, i dont want to see people who have to support themselves by working , i want to see people who are 100% devoted to the game and have enough time to practice to be the best. This includes koreans this tournament shouldnt be for pro gamers barely scraping by competing against each other so they can put their next meal on the table, it should be for the best of the best who have support from their teams and sponsors players who can practice up to 12 hours a day, does anyone want to see someone in the NHL who isnt 100% commited and has to have a day job just to get by? hahaha that would be a joke. Well generally that is how all sports start off. Early in baseball history most players had jobs during their off-season and worked in between and it still continues to this day for AAA-AA-A players who aren't round one draft picks. | ||
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RoarMan
Canada745 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:50 jmbthirteen wrote: Where the fuck did I say any of that? Allowing Koreans in the NASL will give them the motivation to take up the Korean practice regimen. It's what I've been saying this whole thread. Once again, if they don't have any competition against the Koreans, they will never be motivated to adopt the means necessary to compete with them. Never have I said Koreans are wired to be better. This whole thread I've been saying how NA/EU players can be better than Koreans if they train properly. Jinro, Huk, Idra and etc are showing that with their strong performances in the GSL. And thats because they are training properly. I think the NASL is the first real avenue to give NA/EU players the motivation they need to get really serious about sc2. It will raise the level of play without Koreans just because of how serious the league is. But it will not raise it to the level of the Koreans if they're aren't any in the league. Not because playing a couple of games against them will make them magically better (although it will help especially since they could be playing multiple games against multiple Koreans). But because they will be motivated to practice more and play more against great players all over the world. This. We shouldn't destroy the competitive nature of the sport. I wouldn't want to see players disallowed to play in the tournaments because they're good at the game. That just doesn't make any sense. Really NASL will be a wake up call to players. In life the fittest survive and players will have to prove themselves more than ever with the top Koreans playing. | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
how can you say no to a face like that? | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
On March 17 2011 05:19 abominare wrote: Youre my starcraft 2 hero Tyler and you live in my hometown, however youre a sc expert not an information systems expert. Lets say you decide to play a game of chess with your friend who is 1 thousand miles away. You decide that the best way to handle numerous issues of cheating and logistics issues is to have a mediator. Bob will be the mediator he will keep track of the gameboard each player will phone bob with their piece movements so he can keep official tally and because he is neutral you can rest assured there will be no fiddling with the rules. Everything is recorded, documented and fair the downside side is you have to wait for bob to get around to making the moves when you call it in. That is a very basic look on how sc1/2 b.net worked. The server is acting as the mediator constantly checking on what you and your opponent is doing preventing cheating or the moves being played out of order(they are done based on when the server responds to your action). If you compare sc1 BNET latency performance with sc2 BNET performance and they have made huge strides. Its really night and day there. ICCUP was great because of the super low latency it could achieve because it took the server loops out of the equation. Its not your comp telling the server what its doing then the server sending back that info to you and your competitor its more of a he said she said with your computer doing what you told it do and his the same with the occasional attempt to reconcile little differences. You gave up huge amount of sync stability and integrity protections for super low lag. Infact to discourage the rampant cheating there was the anti-hack launcher that in many leagues had to bribe you with more points because it caused .......drumroll......more lag. The antihack program itself wasnt very robust at in order to still achieve better than bnet latency and the league still required a manual banlist to keep thigns under control which is not at all viable for sc2 because of the difference in size of community. I understand that there are compromises going on here and not straight-up improvements or regressions. But I have to admit to some ignorance about "sync stability and integrity" because I never ever encountered such problems when playing on low latency with Koreans and Europeans from North America. From my perspective as a person who played a ton of games on iccup, and also having played a ton of games with the program that allowed you to play with lower latency on official bnet servers, and having known a ton of people who also played tons of games these ways, I never heard of such problems. It was a straight-up improvement. Worst case scenario was you had to increase the latency setting. Cheating was not an issue. And if that is the issue for Blizzard, that they can't prevent cheating well enough with these low latencies, then it doesn't make sense when you look at b.net for SC:BW. You can't play a public 4v4 without half the players being hackers. The official Blizzard ladder has been completely ruined by cheaters for years. Iccup is a safe haven compared to Blizzards' servers. What's the point of sacrificing latency for better measures against cheating if the measures aren't good enough to be effective anyway? | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:46 Kazang wrote: Well here is the rub. SC1/BW used a different type of netcode. Basically when you issue a command, the unit does it on your client then it sends what that unit did to the server, server then sends it to the other player. Yes your actions have instant effect on your screen, but your opponent doesn't see your action until the 200+ ms later. This is better in a perfect environment, with 0 latency, and can even appear fine in high latency, but the reality is there is a difference in sync. You have the illusion of zero latency, but behind the scenes that is not the case. This is just factually wrong. Did you even play SC1 online? I don't know why I should read the rest of your post after you've written this. Maybe I should clarify about what I mean by "Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game" I give a command simultaneously with my opponent in the real world there is a delay The commands happen simultaneously in the game Our commands are simultaneous with each other. The giving of the command doesn't happen simultaneously with the game performing the command. | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
What is going to make the casual esports fan tune in...tbh seeing korean players who don't even speak english in some cases wouldn't thrill me if I was a casual person. I don't know the guy, I can't ask him questions, I'm lucky if he even cares to get to know the crowd. Sure guys like cella who participate with the foreign community sure, but if a korean is going to be considered they need to be in it for all the right reasons. Not to just win money and run home to korea, but be willing to do what they have to in order to connect with even the casual esports fans...or fans yet to become fans. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:46 Kazang wrote: With the way SC1 played this wasn't greatly noticeable, the biggest example I can think of right now is if a reaver is sniped a moment after you saw it fire, you see the scarab fly and hit something, but your opponent had actually already killed that reaver the spilt second before it fired and thus the scarab appears to hit and do nothing, that scarab never existed on the server, only on your screen. That is pretty much the most exaggerated example I can think of. The scarab did exist though, its completely normal for reavers to do that. I literally do not remember any desyncing of BW in any game, even in hectic 3v3/4v4 on US/KR servers. It also only lagged because of player and their routing/bandwidth not because of Battle.net itself like SC2 does. So saying the SC2 netcode is better isn't much good when it's infact definitely worse for us. The only benefits of the new system are towards Blizzard not us. You can say they are well within their right to do things this way and have total control over everything but i think its fair to say it doesn't help us or eSports in any way. Edit: Now i reread you actually don't know what you're talking about; BW was p2p and didn't use the server at all for the actual connection. Since you joined in 2010 i'm inclined to think that you are just making assumptions. | ||
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dkim
United States255 Posts
On March 17 2011 07:11 Nerski wrote: I think the most important thing to think about is, what is 'good' for NA esports. Not who is the best player or who is top 200 or anything like that. If you want to see who's best in the world, arguably you can all go face off for spots in the GSL. To me NASL is more about growing esports in the foreign scene. What is going to make the casual esports fan tune in...tbh seeing korean players who don't even speak english in some cases wouldn't thrill me if I was a casual person. I don't know the guy, I can't ask him questions, I'm lucky if he even cares to get to know the crowd. Sure guys like cella who participate with the foreign community sure, but if a korean is going to be considered they need to be in it for all the right reasons. Not to just win money and run home to korea, but be willing to do what they have to in order to connect with even the casual esports fans...or fans yet to become fans. imo there is nothing better for foreigner E-sport scene than having a best foreigner defeat a best korean. | ||
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shinyA
United States473 Posts
At the same time, GSL isn't that accessible because you have to go to Korea to play in it. That is a big reason we don't see more foreigners, and it will be the same reason that we won't see many Koreans in NASL. Koreans coming to USA to play will lose more than foreigners. They won't have their practice house and all their team around them. They give up much more and I don't see many top level Koreans coming to NASL. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't allow them the chance. | ||
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
THe purpose of the NASL is to further western e-sports, and create is a commercial brand that investors and spectators look at. That being said, I don't see it furthering it if they did it GSL format where everyones invited and you just try out, if it was a full Korean roster it just wouldn't do what it set out to do. Not because westerners aren't interested in Koreans, it's because there's already that type of tournament in the GSL. I'm not saying I want their to be a Korean cap the same way Pokebunny is, what I'm saying is if they NASL turned out to be like the GSL, tons of the koreans plus a few foreigners, then it wouldn't do much for western E-sports because it doesn't offer anything different, it would just be a less funded, less sponsored, less production value version of the GSL broadcasted in our time zone. Also going to say that it'd still be silly to limit the amount of Koreans because then it would also fail to achieve it's goal of being a premier league like the GSL. Lastly, I can see the dilemna they have. What to do.... | ||
Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On March 17 2011 07:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: This is just factually wrong. Did you even play SC1 online? I don't know why I should read the rest of your post after you've written this. Maybe I should clarify about what I mean by "Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game" I give a command simultaneously with my opponent in the real world there is a delay The commands happen simultaneously in the game Our commands are simultaneous with each other. The giving of the command doesn't happen simultaneously with the game performing the command. I can confirm that I've played approximately a billion games of BW and have never seen units teleport or scarabs disappear. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
I would invite 2-3 to start with, just to have that 'villain' to fear and hope to defeat. | ||
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