On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
Team Liquid (Huk, Jinro, Haypro, Ret, TLO for a few months), IdrA, and slowly yet surely moonglade are products of 'korean practice'. So you're stating they shouldn't be playing in the NASL as well? Why punish them for committing more to the game compared to western players such as yourself? They can simply create a fanbase as well in the west if they already haven't created a small one already. SC:BW is an example of this where top brood war players have western fans. You can't say "they don't interact" if you don't let them.
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad.
Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get.
This is obviously not feasible since not all players are willing to leave home and families but frankly if you really wanted to, it is possible. Look at Huk Jinro Idra, they chose to be competitive and are very successful even against the Koreans. To say that it is impossible is clearly wrong.
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
Team Liquid (Huk, Jinro, Haypro, Ret, TLO for a few months), IdrA, and slowly yet surely moonglade are products of 'korean practice'. So you're stating they shouldn't be playing in the NASL as well? Why punish them for committing more to the game compared to western players such as yourself? They can simply create a fanbase as well in the west if they already haven't created a small one already. SC:BW is an example of this where top brood war players have western fans. You can't say "they don't interact" if you don't let them.
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad.
Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get.
On March 17 2011 03:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote: As long as the KR ladder remains strong, Americans have this opportunity (though Blizzard needs to make it easier for an American to connect to the KR server and get latency like in SC:BW).
Never going to happen.*
The reason for the apparent low latency in BW was because of where the servers were located, or not in the case of direct peer to peer games. You can't specifically choose what server, know where it is or dictate how you play SC2 so you can never get the lowest possible latency. Then of course there is a physical limitation in how fast information can travel over the pacific and back again.
The BW engine is also so terrible that it actually makes high latency less noticeable, it's simplicity Vs stability in netcode. SC2 has much more robust netcode that tries to insure equality and a consistent connection, but increases latency due to the number of loopbacks to the server. SC2 is extremely unlikely to have desync errors and problems of that type, actions not registering etc, but that stability comes at the cost of more noticeable lag when the latency does increase.
*if it ever does it will be at the same time they implement LAN play.
This sucks because SC2 seems to be worse in every way compared to SC1. For example, if I'm playing on KR server, and if my opponent and I give a command simultaneously, his command happens first. In this way, our games are out of sync. We do things at different times depending on our latency to the server. This isn't the case with SC1. Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game. Also in SC2, it's possible for the game to momentarily freeze and then skip ahead for one player, but for the other player to have a smooth experience the whole time.
It's just really disappointing because SC:BW was designed mainly for dial-up modems. As connections improved, Blizzard did nothing, but fans were able to make adjustments to take advantage of our internet connections. And then SC2 comes out and I'm thinking it'll be nice to not have to use third party programs anymore. But then they totally sacrificed the quality of long distance connections, which kinda blew my mind with how much PR they had about building SC2 for esports. NA to NA and EU to EU and KR to KR all provide excellent online experiences but they must have known that SC2 as an esport would require good connections cross continent =[[[
Well here is the rub.
SC1/BW used a different type of netcode. Basically when you issue a command, the unit does it on your client then it sends what that unit did to the server, server then sends it to the other player. Yes your actions have instant effect on your screen, but your opponent doesn't see your action until the 200+ ms later. This is better in a perfect environment, with 0 latency, and can even appear fine in high latency, but the reality is there is a difference in sync. You have the illusion of zero latency, but behind the scenes that is not the case.
This is just factually wrong. Did you even play SC1 online? I don't know why I should read the rest of your post after you've written this.
Maybe I should clarify about what I mean by "Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game" I give a command simultaneously with my opponent in the real world there is a delay The commands happen simultaneously in the game
Our commands are simultaneous with each other. The giving of the command doesn't happen simultaneously with the game performing the command.
There is a forced delay in SC1 to make up for differences in latency, that is separate to how it relates to actual latency, that is not exactly a good solution either. It just forces a delay on the player with the better latency, to give the approximate effect of doing things at the same moment. The player with the lower latency still has the reaction advantage, although less pronounced, that just physically how it works, there is a latency in the signal going a long way, you cannot get around that only try to compensate for it.
That's worse than it is with how it works in SC2. If someone on a server is lagging it still effects all the players on the server in SC2. That's most evident in games with lot's of spectators, one person lagging causes the whole game to slow down and/or stutter.
If your complaint is that the lag isn't equal then you are over estimating how much of a disadvantage one player is at if they play at a higher latency. It's bad for both, slightly worse for one. It attempts to meet in the middle, which as I explained before works best when both players are playing on normal latency.
It doesn't change the fact that there is lag when playing long distance, it's just how it is. Asking blizzard to somehow change the laws of physics to make distance irrelevant just because it's supposed to be an esport is totally unreasonable.
On March 17 2011 07:23 dsousa wrote: Lets put it this way... if NASL doesn't invite the best Koreans....
someone else will, and NASL will become irrelevant.
Because people want to watch the best players play at the highest levels....
if minor league baseball can't draw a crowd, I don't think minor league SC is going to do too well.
Well MLG will do completely without Koreans. And I believe they will do just fine.
I also think there should be Koreans in the tourney, but no majority. Something like 10 would be cool. A tournament with 45 koreans and 5 foreigners would not make much sense imo, because that would be GSL 2. And I dont need 2 tournaments with the exact same players. NASL is about showcasing some of the top NA/EU players as well in a high profile tournament in addition to the Koreans that we usually see.
I lawl at the idea that MLG will ever put sc2 on the "map." The prestige of 1st place will never be the same as, say, GSL, because we ALL know that the general level of play between the two tourneys are fairly disparate.
Plus the prize money.. NASL should model itself after GSL, or even TSL, before it ever considers MLG.
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad.
Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get.
at least I'm not the only one =x
Yeah, must be comforting to know that someone else shares your defeatist attitude.
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad.
Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get.
at least I'm not the only one =x
Idk why you keep making minor jabs in these threads. You are just gonna make even more people dislike you in the future. Should just be quiet so that the heat will die down.
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad.
Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get.
How is it not possible? Just PLAY 12 hours a day like they do. What other resources do you need? You have a computer, you have a chair, you have SC2. play the damn game until you are a fucking god at it. The koreans don't have some secret starcraft gene, they just play more than you.
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad.
Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get.
This is obviously not feasible since not all players are willing to leave home and families but frankly if you really wanted to, it is possible. Look at Huk Jinro Idra, they chose to be competitive and are very successful even against the Koreans. To say that it is impossible is clearly wrong.
It is impossible if you don't have a team who makes you live in Korea. Which basically applies to everyone except 3 (?) people at the moment.
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad.
Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get.
This is obviously not feasible since not all players are willing to leave home and families but frankly if you really wanted to, it is possible. Look at Huk Jinro Idra, they chose to be competitive and are very successful even against the Koreans. To say that it is impossible is clearly wrong.
It is impossible if you don't have a team who makes you live in Korea. Which basically applies to everyone except 3 (?) people at the moment.
If you continue to avoid them, you'll always be second rate. Give up the cowardice now and hope they apply so you can get experience against them and surpass them. Is this kind of attitude hard to attain?
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad.
Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get.
It is all about giving up because it is possible. The work just needs to be done. Koreans didn't just have everything handed to them, they worked at it. And now its time for NA/EU to put the work in. It sounds like you have just given up and are happy with where sc2 and eSports in general are right now.
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad.
Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get.
This is obviously not feasible since not all players are willing to leave home and families but frankly if you really wanted to, it is possible. Look at Huk Jinro Idra, they chose to be competitive and are very successful even against the Koreans. To say that it is impossible is clearly wrong.
It is impossible if you don't have a team who makes you live in Korea. Which basically applies to everyone except 3 (?) people at the moment.
That is why Gom made the foreigner house? Moonglade is not in teamliquid and he is there. Whether you choose to be competitive or not is up to you. I'm not saying that this isnt extremely hard with the current situation but you already chose the defeated attitude before the Koreans even get here.
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad.
Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get.
How is it not possible? Just PLAY 12 hours a day like they do. What other resources do you need? You have a computer, you have a chair, you have SC2. play the damn game until you are a fucking god at it. The koreans don't have some secret starcraft gene, they just play more than you.
This is a very superficial statement. You need both quantity and quality. I can get all the quantity I want here, but I will never have the same quality of opponents, that's the only reason western progamers will never be as good as koreans, because they had a solid progaming structure to start with, and for us it's impossible to interact with them because KOR server is not playable. You even need a korean identity card to make an account there.
On March 17 2011 03:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote: As long as the KR ladder remains strong, Americans have this opportunity (though Blizzard needs to make it easier for an American to connect to the KR server and get latency like in SC:BW).
Never going to happen.*
The reason for the apparent low latency in BW was because of where the servers were located, or not in the case of direct peer to peer games. You can't specifically choose what server, know where it is or dictate how you play SC2 so you can never get the lowest possible latency. Then of course there is a physical limitation in how fast information can travel over the pacific and back again.
The BW engine is also so terrible that it actually makes high latency less noticeable, it's simplicity Vs stability in netcode. SC2 has much more robust netcode that tries to insure equality and a consistent connection, but increases latency due to the number of loopbacks to the server. SC2 is extremely unlikely to have desync errors and problems of that type, actions not registering etc, but that stability comes at the cost of more noticeable lag when the latency does increase.
*if it ever does it will be at the same time they implement LAN play.
This sucks because SC2 seems to be worse in every way compared to SC1. For example, if I'm playing on KR server, and if my opponent and I give a command simultaneously, his command happens first. In this way, our games are out of sync. We do things at different times depending on our latency to the server. This isn't the case with SC1. Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game. Also in SC2, it's possible for the game to momentarily freeze and then skip ahead for one player, but for the other player to have a smooth experience the whole time.
It's just really disappointing because SC:BW was designed mainly for dial-up modems. As connections improved, Blizzard did nothing, but fans were able to make adjustments to take advantage of our internet connections. And then SC2 comes out and I'm thinking it'll be nice to not have to use third party programs anymore. But then they totally sacrificed the quality of long distance connections, which kinda blew my mind with how much PR they had about building SC2 for esports. NA to NA and EU to EU and KR to KR all provide excellent online experiences but they must have known that SC2 as an esport would require good connections cross continent =[[[
Well here is the rub.
SC1/BW used a different type of netcode. Basically when you issue a command, the unit does it on your client then it sends what that unit did to the server, server then sends it to the other player. Yes your actions have instant effect on your screen, but your opponent doesn't see your action until the 200+ ms later. This is better in a perfect environment, with 0 latency, and can even appear fine in high latency, but the reality is there is a difference in sync. You have the illusion of zero latency, but behind the scenes that is not the case.
This is just factually wrong. Did you even play SC1 online? I don't know why I should read the rest of your post after you've written this.
Maybe I should clarify about what I mean by "Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game" I give a command simultaneously with my opponent in the real world there is a delay The commands happen simultaneously in the game
Our commands are simultaneous with each other. The giving of the command doesn't happen simultaneously with the game performing the command.
There is a forced delay in SC1 to make up for differences in latency, that is separate to how it relates to actual latency, that is not exactly a good solution either. It just forces a delay on the player with the better latency, to give the approximate effect of doing things at the same moment. The player with the lower latency still has the reaction advantage, although less pronounced, that just physically how it works, there is a latency in the signal going a long way, you cannot get around that only try to compensate for it.
That's worse than it is with how it works in SC2. If someone on a server is lagging it still effects all the players on the server in SC2. That's most evident in games with lot's of spectators, one person lagging causes the whole game to slow down and/or stutter.
If your complaint is that the lag isn't equal then you are over estimating how much of a disadvantage one player is at if they play at a higher latency. It's bad for both, slightly worse for one. It attempts to meet in the middle, which as I explained before works best when both players are playing on normal latency.
It doesn't change the fact that there is lag when playing long distance, it's just how it is. Asking blizzard to somehow change the laws of physics to make distance irrelevant just because it's supposed to be an esport is totally unreasonable.
I dunno why you're still posting about this, but you are completely wrong. In BW lag affects all players as well, thats why if a spectator is lagging you kick them out. You have not even played it have you? There is NO reaction advantage.
BW Player -> Player
SC2 Player -> Server -> Player
Everyones experience points to the first as working fine and better, especially when we have control over the latency with ICCUP. SC2's method is not better other than it stops people pirating the game which is not better for us it's better for Blizzard. I don't have any idea where you got your ideas about the BW netcode from.
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad.
Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get.
How is it not possible? Just PLAY 12 hours a day like they do. What other resources do you need? You have a computer, you have a chair, you have SC2. play the damn game until you are a fucking god at it. The koreans don't have some secret starcraft gene, they just play more than you.
This is a very superficial statement. You need both quantity and quality. I can get all the quantity I want here, but I will never have the same quality of opponents, that's the only reason western progamers will never be as good as koreans, because they had a solid progaming structure to start with, and for us it's impossible to interact with them because KOR server is not playable. You even need a korean identity card to make an account there.
Yet theres a korean opportunity right at your door step with koreans being at NASL, but instead you say, it's better if they aren't there because I don't want to get dominated.
Theres another reason some progamers won't be as good as koreans, it's because they are too scared to face them which is the defeatist attitude you are projecting that many people in this topic are frowning upon.
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad.
Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get.
This is obviously not feasible since not all players are willing to leave home and families but frankly if you really wanted to, it is possible. Look at Huk Jinro Idra, they chose to be competitive and are very successful even against the Koreans. To say that it is impossible is clearly wrong.
It is impossible if you don't have a team who makes you live in Korea. Which basically applies to everyone except 3 (?) people at the moment.
Aren't you separate from the NA as well? I think EU players should be barred as well as Koreans.
It is a fact that Americans work longer hours than Europeans, so it is objectively true that Americans have less practice time for SC2. EU players such as yourself have an impossible advantage when it comes to practice time and should be barred from the NORTH AMERICAN star-league.
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad.
Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get.
This is obviously not feasible since not all players are willing to leave home and families but frankly if you really wanted to, it is possible. Look at Huk Jinro Idra, they chose to be competitive and are very successful even against the Koreans. To say that it is impossible is clearly wrong.
It is impossible if you don't have a team who makes you live in Korea. Which basically applies to everyone except 3 (?) people at the moment.
there are team houses forming where they can emulate korean practice settings. you actually believe that korean team houses have something else to it than a house full of sc nerds playing 24/7 with proper coaching? what, superior genes? honestly we all know why players are saying nay to koreans in nasl. it makes their chance of taking 1st place a bit better.
On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote: I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one.
I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad.
Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get.
How is it not possible? Just PLAY 12 hours a day like they do. What other resources do you need? You have a computer, you have a chair, you have SC2. play the damn game until you are a fucking god at it. The koreans don't have some secret starcraft gene, they just play more than you.
This is a very superficial statement. You need both quantity and quality. I can get all the quantity I want here, but I will never have the same quality of opponents, that's the only reason western progamers will never be as good as koreans, because they had a solid progaming structure to start with, and for us it's impossible to interact with them because KOR server is not playable. You even need a korean identity card to make an account there.
Yet theres a korean opportunity right at your door step with koreans being at NASL, but instead you say, it's better if they aren't there because I don't want to get dominated.
Theres another reason some progamers won't be as good as koreans, it's because they are too scared to face them which is the defeatist attitude you are projecting that many people in this topic are frowning upon.
What don't you understand of the fact it's IMPOSSIBLE with the practice u get in EU / NA server to beat koreans? It's not defeatist attitude or being scared, I would love to compete with them but with the level of practice we get it's IMPOSSIBLE. I didn't think it was so hard to understand, yet it's so simple.
EPT
