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edit - was too slow and someone covered it already.
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On March 17 2011 08:17 MYM.ClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:15 adeezy wrote:On March 17 2011 08:14 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 17 2011 08:11 Gatsbi wrote:On March 17 2011 08:04 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 17 2011 08:02 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote:
I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one. I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad. Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get. How is it not possible? Just PLAY 12 hours a day like they do. What other resources do you need? You have a computer, you have a chair, you have SC2. play the damn game until you are a fucking god at it. The koreans don't have some secret starcraft gene, they just play more than you. This is a very superficial statement. You need both quantity and quality. I can get all the quantity I want here, but I will never have the same quality of opponents, that's the only reason western progamers will never be as good as koreans, because they had a solid progaming structure to start with, and for us it's impossible to interact with them because KOR server is not playable. You even need a korean identity card to make an account there. Yet theres a korean opportunity right at your door step with koreans being at NASL, but instead you say, it's better if they aren't there because I don't want to get dominated. Theres another reason some progamers won't be as good as koreans, it's because they are too scared to face them which is the defeatist attitude you are projecting that many people in this topic are frowning upon. What don't you understand of the fact it's IMPOSSIBLE with the practice u get in EU / NA server to beat koreans? It's not defeatist attitude or being scared, I would love to compete with them but with the level of practice we get it's IMPOSSIBLE. I didn't think it was so hard to understand, yet it's so simple.
It's not impossible, and I don't have to say that from experience because I know I'm not a pro player, but at least I have hope in foreign players skills. It's as simple as that, and the more you continue to say it's impossible is only going to enforce the hopelessness. It's either face them while they game is still new and do your best to lessen the gap, or segregate and increase the skill divide. As a pro player I don't understand how you would choose the latter.
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On March 17 2011 08:07 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:04 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 17 2011 08:02 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote:
I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one. I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad. Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get. at least I'm not the only one =x
you kids need to grow some e-balls.. how can you call yourself a progamer and be afraid of koreans.Rofl what a joke basically you guys want to create two seperate leagues just like NBA and the WNBA?
User was warned for this post
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On March 17 2011 08:19 storm44 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:07 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 08:04 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 17 2011 08:02 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote:
I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one. I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad. Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get. at least I'm not the only one =x you kids need to grow some e-balls.. how can you call yourself a progamer and be afraid of koreans.Rofl what a joke basically you guys want to create two seperate leagues just like NBA and the WNBA?
So how good do you do vs Koreans?
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On March 17 2011 08:17 MYM.ClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:15 adeezy wrote:On March 17 2011 08:14 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 17 2011 08:11 Gatsbi wrote:On March 17 2011 08:04 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 17 2011 08:02 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote:
I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one. I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad. Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get. How is it not possible? Just PLAY 12 hours a day like they do. What other resources do you need? You have a computer, you have a chair, you have SC2. play the damn game until you are a fucking god at it. The koreans don't have some secret starcraft gene, they just play more than you. This is a very superficial statement. You need both quantity and quality. I can get all the quantity I want here, but I will never have the same quality of opponents, that's the only reason western progamers will never be as good as koreans, because they had a solid progaming structure to start with, and for us it's impossible to interact with them because KOR server is not playable. You even need a korean identity card to make an account there. Yet theres a korean opportunity right at your door step with koreans being at NASL, but instead you say, it's better if they aren't there because I don't want to get dominated. Theres another reason some progamers won't be as good as koreans, it's because they are too scared to face them which is the defeatist attitude you are projecting that many people in this topic are frowning upon. What don't you understand of the fact it's IMPOSSIBLE with the practice u get in EU / NA server to beat koreans? It's not defeatist attitude or being scared, I would love to compete with them but with the level of practice we get it's IMPOSSIBLE. I didn't think it was so hard to understand, yet it's so simple.
With the right training regiment or rather one that mimics Koreans, eventually the skill gap will lessen unless you are implying that Koreans are innately superior that no matter how much the practices are the same, you will never surpass them which is false. With the same regiment, you will slowly reach their levels since at a point, it gets infinitely harder to improve which the Koreans will reach before you guys.
By having International tournaments with both Euros/Nas and Koreans, it will even help you guys close this skill gaps faster by experiencing these higher plays as well as getting to know each others more.
The only way that it is impossible for Euros/Nas to give up is the mindset that Koreans are infinitely superior no matter what which is what you seem to be implying here.
With your attitude about excluding Koreans and not willing to take the next step to go to Korea or try to mimic the same practices here, no wonder you will never catch up or be a good player even in Euro/Na.
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On March 17 2011 08:14 MYM.ClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:11 Gatsbi wrote:On March 17 2011 08:04 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 17 2011 08:02 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote:
I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one. I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad. Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get. How is it not possible? Just PLAY 12 hours a day like they do. What other resources do you need? You have a computer, you have a chair, you have SC2. play the damn game until you are a fucking god at it. The koreans don't have some secret starcraft gene, they just play more than you. This is a very superficial statement. You need both quantity and quality. I can get all the quantity I want here, but I will never have the same quality of opponents, that's the only reason western progamers will never be as good as koreans, because they had a solid progaming structure to start with, and for us it's impossible to interact with them because KOR server is not playable. You even need a korean identity card to make an account there.
Don't say it is not playable. Sure there is latency, but it is playable. Plenty of guys play on the Korean server. I've seen Tyler and drewbie have been playing on it. Idra will continue to play on it from NA.
They didn't always have a solid progaming structure. They created it. And thats what needs to be done here in the west now. The NASL is a great step towards it. Stop being so close minded. There is no good reason that we cannot have a great progaming scene in the west. It will take time and require work, but it can be done.
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On March 17 2011 08:14 MYM.ClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:11 Gatsbi wrote:On March 17 2011 08:04 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 17 2011 08:02 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote:
I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one. I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad. Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get. How is it not possible? Just PLAY 12 hours a day like they do. What other resources do you need? You have a computer, you have a chair, you have SC2. play the damn game until you are a fucking god at it. The koreans don't have some secret starcraft gene, they just play more than you. This is a very superficial statement. You need both quantity and quality. I can get all the quantity I want here, but I will never have the same quality of opponents, that's the only reason western progamers will never be as good as koreans, because they had a solid progaming structure to start with, and for us it's impossible to interact with them because KOR server is not playable. You even need a korean identity card to make an account there.
The Koreans didn't start out with the quality they have now, it should be possible for foreigners to get there as well. Obviousy you adapt towards the level of play you play on, but foreigners should be able to raise the level on their own just like the Koreans, at least in theory.
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Imo there shouldn't be any players from Korea in the NASL. They will just dominate the league, also games with them probably have a lot more lag.
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The EU to KR lag is way worse than the NA to KR lag, from what I understand, so it just isnt feasible to play on the KR server for EU guys.
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On March 17 2011 08:23 Doso wrote:
Imo there shouldn't be any players from Korea in the NASL. They will just dominate the league, also games with them probably have a lot more lag.
This isn't stopping the TSL, and there's no doubt in my mind the TSL will be the best non GSL tournament ever.
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On March 17 2011 08:14 MYM.ClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:11 Gatsbi wrote:On March 17 2011 08:04 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 17 2011 08:02 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 07:59 MYM.ClouD wrote:
I wouldn't like to have koreans in this tournament because they belong to a completely different community that doesn't interact with ours and they will greatly overshadow any western player. We don't have the tools to have a good enough practice to compete with them. There's GSL already, no need for a second one. I just sigh at every known players with this type of view because it clearly shows that they are not a true competitor. they are admitting inferiority straight up and even giving up at the idea that they can ever be as good as them. it's just sad. Because it's not possible. It's not about giving up, it's a thing we can't do because we can't get the kind of practice they get. How is it not possible? Just PLAY 12 hours a day like they do. What other resources do you need? You have a computer, you have a chair, you have SC2. play the damn game until you are a fucking god at it. The koreans don't have some secret starcraft gene, they just play more than you. This is a very superficial statement. You need both quantity and quality. I can get all the quantity I want here, but I will never have the same quality of opponents, that's the only reason western progamers will never be as good as koreans, because they had a solid progaming structure to start with, and for us it's impossible to interact with them because KOR server is not playable. You even need a korean identity card to make an account there.
Just like them, we just have to make the quality. Do you think everything was set up for Koreans? Yes, it takes time, but I don't think you can say "it's not possible..". Your statement sounds like you're just giving up.
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On March 17 2011 08:14 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:07 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 07:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 17 2011 06:46 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 04:43 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 17 2011 04:13 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 03:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
As long as the KR ladder remains strong, Americans have this opportunity (though Blizzard needs to make it easier for an American to connect to the KR server and get latency like in SC:BW). Never going to happen.* The reason for the apparent low latency in BW was because of where the servers were located, or not in the case of direct peer to peer games. You can't specifically choose what server, know where it is or dictate how you play SC2 so you can never get the lowest possible latency. Then of course there is a physical limitation in how fast information can travel over the pacific and back again. The BW engine is also so terrible that it actually makes high latency less noticeable, it's simplicity Vs stability in netcode. SC2 has much more robust netcode that tries to insure equality and a consistent connection, but increases latency due to the number of loopbacks to the server. SC2 is extremely unlikely to have desync errors and problems of that type, actions not registering etc, but that stability comes at the cost of more noticeable lag when the latency does increase. *if it ever does it will be at the same time they implement LAN play. This sucks because SC2 seems to be worse in every way compared to SC1. For example, if I'm playing on KR server, and if my opponent and I give a command simultaneously, his command happens first. In this way, our games are out of sync. We do things at different times depending on our latency to the server. This isn't the case with SC1. Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game. Also in SC2, it's possible for the game to momentarily freeze and then skip ahead for one player, but for the other player to have a smooth experience the whole time. It's just really disappointing because SC:BW was designed mainly for dial-up modems. As connections improved, Blizzard did nothing, but fans were able to make adjustments to take advantage of our internet connections. And then SC2 comes out and I'm thinking it'll be nice to not have to use third party programs anymore. But then they totally sacrificed the quality of long distance connections, which kinda blew my mind with how much PR they had about building SC2 for esports. NA to NA and EU to EU and KR to KR all provide excellent online experiences but they must have known that SC2 as an esport would require good connections cross continent =[[[ Well here is the rub. SC1/BW used a different type of netcode. Basically when you issue a command, the unit does it on your client then it sends what that unit did to the server, server then sends it to the other player. Yes your actions have instant effect on your screen, but your opponent doesn't see your action until the 200+ ms later. This is better in a perfect environment, with 0 latency, and can even appear fine in high latency, but the reality is there is a difference in sync. You have the illusion of zero latency, but behind the scenes that is not the case. This is just factually wrong. Did you even play SC1 online? I don't know why I should read the rest of your post after you've written this. Maybe I should clarify about what I mean by "Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game" I give a command simultaneously with my opponent in the real world there is a delay The commands happen simultaneously in the game Our commands are simultaneous with each other. The giving of the command doesn't happen simultaneously with the game performing the command. There is a forced delay in SC1 to make up for differences in latency, that is separate to how it relates to actual latency, that is not exactly a good solution either. It just forces a delay on the player with the better latency, to give the approximate effect of doing things at the same moment. The player with the lower latency still has the reaction advantage, although less pronounced, that just physically how it works, there is a latency in the signal going a long way, you cannot get around that only try to compensate for it. That's worse than it is with how it works in SC2. If someone on a server is lagging it still effects all the players on the server in SC2. That's most evident in games with lot's of spectators, one person lagging causes the whole game to slow down and/or stutter. If your complaint is that the lag isn't equal then you are over estimating how much of a disadvantage one player is at if they play at a higher latency. It's bad for both, slightly worse for one. It attempts to meet in the middle, which as I explained before works best when both players are playing on normal latency. It doesn't change the fact that there is lag when playing long distance, it's just how it is. Asking blizzard to somehow change the laws of physics to make distance irrelevant just because it's supposed to be an esport is totally unreasonable. I dunno why you're still posting about this, but you are completely wrong. In BW lag affects all players as well, thats why if a spectator is lagging you kick them out. You have not even played it have you? There is NO reaction advantage. BW Player -> Player SC2 Player -> Server -> Player Everyones experience points to the first as working fine and better, especially when we have control over the latency with ICCUP. SC2's method is not better other than it stops people pirating the game which is not better for us it's better for Blizzard. I don't have any idea where you got your ideas about the BW netcode from.
Did you even read my post?
Because you clearly did not understand any of it.
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Every Korean should be allowed to compete. I realise the idea is to create a strong NA scene, but I don't think inviting Koreans will actually stop that. The GSL is only diluted in it's foreigner count because, well, it's in Korea, and not all of the foreign players have the ridiculous income and sponsorship of the Korean proteams. The NA scene will still come alive with this tournament even with Koreans in it, simply because it's an accessible tournament for everyone to get to.
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I'm not too bothered if you think you can't compete with Koreans, the truth is you probably can't.
But this is a tournament for 100 grand, it simply shouldn't be for people who can't compete with the best and who freely admit that fact. I don't understand this feeling of entitlement. A big tournament will draw the best players, if you aren't one of those the best thats fine, either work at it or accept your level or whatever, but I don't see where you deserve a big money tournament for not being good.
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Well I think most people here already pay for their GSL vods and high quality stream, I doubt a quarter of that number pay for the MLG premium service although that does work slightly differently.
I presume from a financial perspective that the NASL inviting the best players would get the most income from the VODs and premium service since Koreans will perhaps be purchasing it too, but I'm not sure how the response to the matches would actually be if half the opponents are severely outclassing the people who are considered the best in Europe and the US.
There is also the lag issue, I really don't want to see "X's disqualification due to disconnects" or Koreans not knowing how the $250 (was it?) deposit works due to language problems and finding themselves out of pocket for not showing up on time, but I guess that applies to European countries without English as their first language too.
I always want to see the best players, play. So I'm rooting for the Koreans entering albeit only if they don't have an IdrA style Korean internet connection.
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On March 17 2011 08:24 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:14 infinity2k9 wrote:On March 17 2011 08:07 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 07:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 17 2011 06:46 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 04:43 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 17 2011 04:13 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 03:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
As long as the KR ladder remains strong, Americans have this opportunity (though Blizzard needs to make it easier for an American to connect to the KR server and get latency like in SC:BW). Never going to happen.* The reason for the apparent low latency in BW was because of where the servers were located, or not in the case of direct peer to peer games. You can't specifically choose what server, know where it is or dictate how you play SC2 so you can never get the lowest possible latency. Then of course there is a physical limitation in how fast information can travel over the pacific and back again. The BW engine is also so terrible that it actually makes high latency less noticeable, it's simplicity Vs stability in netcode. SC2 has much more robust netcode that tries to insure equality and a consistent connection, but increases latency due to the number of loopbacks to the server. SC2 is extremely unlikely to have desync errors and problems of that type, actions not registering etc, but that stability comes at the cost of more noticeable lag when the latency does increase. *if it ever does it will be at the same time they implement LAN play. This sucks because SC2 seems to be worse in every way compared to SC1. For example, if I'm playing on KR server, and if my opponent and I give a command simultaneously, his command happens first. In this way, our games are out of sync. We do things at different times depending on our latency to the server. This isn't the case with SC1. Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game. Also in SC2, it's possible for the game to momentarily freeze and then skip ahead for one player, but for the other player to have a smooth experience the whole time. It's just really disappointing because SC:BW was designed mainly for dial-up modems. As connections improved, Blizzard did nothing, but fans were able to make adjustments to take advantage of our internet connections. And then SC2 comes out and I'm thinking it'll be nice to not have to use third party programs anymore. But then they totally sacrificed the quality of long distance connections, which kinda blew my mind with how much PR they had about building SC2 for esports. NA to NA and EU to EU and KR to KR all provide excellent online experiences but they must have known that SC2 as an esport would require good connections cross continent =[[[ Well here is the rub. SC1/BW used a different type of netcode. Basically when you issue a command, the unit does it on your client then it sends what that unit did to the server, server then sends it to the other player. Yes your actions have instant effect on your screen, but your opponent doesn't see your action until the 200+ ms later. This is better in a perfect environment, with 0 latency, and can even appear fine in high latency, but the reality is there is a difference in sync. You have the illusion of zero latency, but behind the scenes that is not the case. This is just factually wrong. Did you even play SC1 online? I don't know why I should read the rest of your post after you've written this. Maybe I should clarify about what I mean by "Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game" I give a command simultaneously with my opponent in the real world there is a delay The commands happen simultaneously in the game Our commands are simultaneous with each other. The giving of the command doesn't happen simultaneously with the game performing the command. There is a forced delay in SC1 to make up for differences in latency, that is separate to how it relates to actual latency, that is not exactly a good solution either. It just forces a delay on the player with the better latency, to give the approximate effect of doing things at the same moment. The player with the lower latency still has the reaction advantage, although less pronounced, that just physically how it works, there is a latency in the signal going a long way, you cannot get around that only try to compensate for it. That's worse than it is with how it works in SC2. If someone on a server is lagging it still effects all the players on the server in SC2. That's most evident in games with lot's of spectators, one person lagging causes the whole game to slow down and/or stutter. If your complaint is that the lag isn't equal then you are over estimating how much of a disadvantage one player is at if they play at a higher latency. It's bad for both, slightly worse for one. It attempts to meet in the middle, which as I explained before works best when both players are playing on normal latency. It doesn't change the fact that there is lag when playing long distance, it's just how it is. Asking blizzard to somehow change the laws of physics to make distance irrelevant just because it's supposed to be an esport is totally unreasonable. I dunno why you're still posting about this, but you are completely wrong. In BW lag affects all players as well, thats why if a spectator is lagging you kick them out. You have not even played it have you? There is NO reaction advantage. BW Player -> Player SC2 Player -> Server -> Player Everyones experience points to the first as working fine and better, especially when we have control over the latency with ICCUP. SC2's method is not better other than it stops people pirating the game which is not better for us it's better for Blizzard. I don't have any idea where you got your ideas about the BW netcode from. Did you even read my post? Because you clearly did not understand any of it.
Its you making up shit about BW that isn't true. I understood it perfectly but what you are saying is completely wrong. Again just so you try to get it: BW has no reaction advantage, and every player in the game suffers lag if one player does, ok?
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On March 17 2011 07:08 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 05:19 abominare wrote:On March 17 2011 04:43 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 17 2011 04:13 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 03:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
As long as the KR ladder remains strong, Americans have this opportunity (though Blizzard needs to make it easier for an American to connect to the KR server and get latency like in SC:BW). Never going to happen.* The reason for the apparent low latency in BW was because of where the servers were located, or not in the case of direct peer to peer games. You can't specifically choose what server, know where it is or dictate how you play SC2 so you can never get the lowest possible latency. Then of course there is a physical limitation in how fast information can travel over the pacific and back again. The BW engine is also so terrible that it actually makes high latency less noticeable, it's simplicity Vs stability in netcode. SC2 has much more robust netcode that tries to insure equality and a consistent connection, but increases latency due to the number of loopbacks to the server. SC2 is extremely unlikely to have desync errors and problems of that type, actions not registering etc, but that stability comes at the cost of more noticeable lag when the latency does increase. *if it ever does it will be at the same time they implement LAN play. This sucks because SC2 seems to be worse in every way compared to SC1. For example, if I'm playing on KR server, and if my opponent and I give a command simultaneously, his command happens first. In this way, our games are out of sync. We do things at different times depending on our latency to the server. This isn't the case with SC1. Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game. Also in SC2, it's possible for the game to momentarily freeze and then skip ahead for one player, but for the other player to have a smooth experience the whole time. It's just really disappointing because SC:BW was designed mainly for dial-up modems. As connections improved, Blizzard did nothing, but fans were able to make adjustments to take advantage of our internet connections. And then SC2 comes out and I'm thinking it'll be nice to not have to use third party programs anymore. But then they totally sacrificed the quality of long distance connections, which kinda blew my mind with how much PR they had about building SC2 for esports. NA to NA and EU to EU and KR to KR all provide excellent online experiences but they must have known that SC2 as an esport would require good connections cross continent =[[[ Youre my starcraft 2 hero Tyler and you live in my hometown, however youre a sc expert not an information systems expert. Lets say you decide to play a game of chess with your friend who is 1 thousand miles away. You decide that the best way to handle numerous issues of cheating and logistics issues is to have a mediator. Bob will be the mediator he will keep track of the gameboard each player will phone bob with their piece movements so he can keep official tally and because he is neutral you can rest assured there will be no fiddling with the rules. Everything is recorded, documented and fair the downside side is you have to wait for bob to get around to making the moves when you call it in. That is a very basic look on how sc1/2 b.net worked. The server is acting as the mediator constantly checking on what you and your opponent is doing preventing cheating or the moves being played out of order(they are done based on when the server responds to your action). If you compare sc1 BNET latency performance with sc2 BNET performance and they have made huge strides. Its really night and day there. ICCUP was great because of the super low latency it could achieve because it took the server loops out of the equation. Its not your comp telling the server what its doing then the server sending back that info to you and your competitor its more of a he said she said with your computer doing what you told it do and his the same with the occasional attempt to reconcile little differences. You gave up huge amount of sync stability and integrity protections for super low lag. Infact to discourage the rampant cheating there was the anti-hack launcher that in many leagues had to bribe you with more points because it caused .......drumroll......more lag. The antihack program itself wasnt very robust at in order to still achieve better than bnet latency and the league still required a manual banlist to keep thigns under control which is not at all viable for sc2 because of the difference in size of community. I understand that there are compromises going on here and not straight-up improvements or regressions. But I have to admit to some ignorance about "sync stability and integrity" because I never ever encountered such problems when playing on low latency with Koreans and Europeans from North America. From my perspective as a person who played a ton of games on iccup, and also having played a ton of games with the program that allowed you to play with lower latency on official bnet servers, and having known a ton of people who also played tons of games these ways, I never heard of such problems. It was a straight-up improvement. Worst case scenario was you had to increase the latency setting. Cheating was not an issue. And if that is the issue for Blizzard, that they can't prevent cheating well enough with these low latencies, then it doesn't make sense when you look at b.net for SC:BW. You can't play a public 4v4 without half the players being hackers. The official Blizzard ladder has been completely ruined by cheaters for years. Iccup is a safe haven compared to Blizzards' servers. What's the point of sacrificing latency for better measures against cheating if the measures aren't good enough to be effective anyway?
Hey Tyler. I got a quick question for ya. How big of a disadvantage is playing SC2 on Korean servers from the States? Like if you were going 50:50 with an opponent of equal skill, how big a disadvantage would it be? Would you be going 40/60 all of a sudden?
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NaDa definitely needs to get in. I would really love to see the back stories to the more famous and better known SC1 pros that moved to SC2 and are doing very good (July/NaDa).
Also, ClouD is definitely wrong. The disparity of skill between Foreigners and Koreans in SC2 isn't that wide, and a quick example of another game. Iamgrunt by far the best player to ever play Age of Empires, who won multiple WCG's and is in their Hall of Fame, and had a 95%+ win was simply GOD. No one ever thought he would ever be beaten. He was so much better than anyone else. Well, a few of the top players decided to get together and train and practice everyday for months, at least putting in double digit hours per day. Guess what...H20 fucking beat Iamgrunt in WCG! An American beat the Korean God. The only thing that is keeping Foreigners back right now is that we cannot currently live on a gamers earnings. This is rapidly changing and the Foreign scene will catch up to the Koreans quite quickly.
The analogy to SC is that Iamgrunt would represent Iloveoov in 2005 and the rest of the Age of Empires player base going up against him would be equivalent to a B-Team Zerg. If you can overcome that obstacle you can overcome anything with enough dedication, support, and motivation. Just ask Ourk. He is one of the better Age of Empire guys to move to SC.
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I give up at trying to explain hard work alone isn't going to take western players on par with koreans unless they go live and practice there. I wouldn't mind having a second GSL but remember, it would become a korean event and not a western event anymore. There's just too much difference, they don't speak english, don't interact with any foreign top player, have a structure that makes it possible for them to have the absolute best possible practice you can get without having the need to look outside their own country and speak with other players that are not koreans. Korean and western esports in Starcraft have always been divided and if you take them in the same place one succumbs to the other, they don't mix.
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On March 17 2011 08:24 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:14 infinity2k9 wrote:On March 17 2011 08:07 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 07:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 17 2011 06:46 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 04:43 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 17 2011 04:13 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 03:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
As long as the KR ladder remains strong, Americans have this opportunity (though Blizzard needs to make it easier for an American to connect to the KR server and get latency like in SC:BW). Never going to happen.* The reason for the apparent low latency in BW was because of where the servers were located, or not in the case of direct peer to peer games. You can't specifically choose what server, know where it is or dictate how you play SC2 so you can never get the lowest possible latency. Then of course there is a physical limitation in how fast information can travel over the pacific and back again. The BW engine is also so terrible that it actually makes high latency less noticeable, it's simplicity Vs stability in netcode. SC2 has much more robust netcode that tries to insure equality and a consistent connection, but increases latency due to the number of loopbacks to the server. SC2 is extremely unlikely to have desync errors and problems of that type, actions not registering etc, but that stability comes at the cost of more noticeable lag when the latency does increase. *if it ever does it will be at the same time they implement LAN play. This sucks because SC2 seems to be worse in every way compared to SC1. For example, if I'm playing on KR server, and if my opponent and I give a command simultaneously, his command happens first. In this way, our games are out of sync. We do things at different times depending on our latency to the server. This isn't the case with SC1. Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game. Also in SC2, it's possible for the game to momentarily freeze and then skip ahead for one player, but for the other player to have a smooth experience the whole time. It's just really disappointing because SC:BW was designed mainly for dial-up modems. As connections improved, Blizzard did nothing, but fans were able to make adjustments to take advantage of our internet connections. And then SC2 comes out and I'm thinking it'll be nice to not have to use third party programs anymore. But then they totally sacrificed the quality of long distance connections, which kinda blew my mind with how much PR they had about building SC2 for esports. NA to NA and EU to EU and KR to KR all provide excellent online experiences but they must have known that SC2 as an esport would require good connections cross continent =[[[ Well here is the rub. SC1/BW used a different type of netcode. Basically when you issue a command, the unit does it on your client then it sends what that unit did to the server, server then sends it to the other player. Yes your actions have instant effect on your screen, but your opponent doesn't see your action until the 200+ ms later. This is better in a perfect environment, with 0 latency, and can even appear fine in high latency, but the reality is there is a difference in sync. You have the illusion of zero latency, but behind the scenes that is not the case. This is just factually wrong. Did you even play SC1 online? I don't know why I should read the rest of your post after you've written this. Maybe I should clarify about what I mean by "Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game" I give a command simultaneously with my opponent in the real world there is a delay The commands happen simultaneously in the game Our commands are simultaneous with each other. The giving of the command doesn't happen simultaneously with the game performing the command. There is a forced delay in SC1 to make up for differences in latency, that is separate to how it relates to actual latency, that is not exactly a good solution either. It just forces a delay on the player with the better latency, to give the approximate effect of doing things at the same moment. The player with the lower latency still has the reaction advantage, although less pronounced, that just physically how it works, there is a latency in the signal going a long way, you cannot get around that only try to compensate for it. That's worse than it is with how it works in SC2. If someone on a server is lagging it still effects all the players on the server in SC2. That's most evident in games with lot's of spectators, one person lagging causes the whole game to slow down and/or stutter. If your complaint is that the lag isn't equal then you are over estimating how much of a disadvantage one player is at if they play at a higher latency. It's bad for both, slightly worse for one. It attempts to meet in the middle, which as I explained before works best when both players are playing on normal latency. It doesn't change the fact that there is lag when playing long distance, it's just how it is. Asking blizzard to somehow change the laws of physics to make distance irrelevant just because it's supposed to be an esport is totally unreasonable. I dunno why you're still posting about this, but you are completely wrong. In BW lag affects all players as well, thats why if a spectator is lagging you kick them out. You have not even played it have you? There is NO reaction advantage. BW Player -> Player SC2 Player -> Server -> Player Everyones experience points to the first as working fine and better, especially when we have control over the latency with ICCUP. SC2's method is not better other than it stops people pirating the game which is not better for us it's better for Blizzard. I don't have any idea where you got your ideas about the BW netcode from. Did you even read my post? Because you clearly did not understand any of it.
I'm reading your posts but all they are doing is proving that you didn't play BW with or without Hamachi or with lan latency. Did you? There's no shame in not having played them, but trying to illustrate how the netcode works on a game you didn't play is pretty stupid
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EPT
