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On March 16 2011 10:04 TRG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:00 Lennon wrote:
Inviting the top Koreans will hinder the foreign scene growth because they will dominate. You obviously have no clue on how to improve yourself or game play. What do you do to get better? Play with people worse than you? No. You play with people who are better than you, who you can learn from. Sometimes it takes getting your ass kicked to learn you need to step your game up. Don't say foolish things like this, it's completely ignorant.
Bad day?
Re-read my statement. It's not wrong.
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On March 17 2011 04:43 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 04:13 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 03:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
As long as the KR ladder remains strong, Americans have this opportunity (though Blizzard needs to make it easier for an American to connect to the KR server and get latency like in SC:BW). Never going to happen.* The reason for the apparent low latency in BW was because of where the servers were located, or not in the case of direct peer to peer games. You can't specifically choose what server, know where it is or dictate how you play SC2 so you can never get the lowest possible latency. Then of course there is a physical limitation in how fast information can travel over the pacific and back again. The BW engine is also so terrible that it actually makes high latency less noticeable, it's simplicity Vs stability in netcode. SC2 has much more robust netcode that tries to insure equality and a consistent connection, but increases latency due to the number of loopbacks to the server. SC2 is extremely unlikely to have desync errors and problems of that type, actions not registering etc, but that stability comes at the cost of more noticeable lag when the latency does increase. *if it ever does it will be at the same time they implement LAN play. This sucks because SC2 seems to be worse in every way compared to SC1. For example, if I'm playing on KR server, and if my opponent and I give a command simultaneously, his command happens first. In this way, our games are out of sync. We do things at different times depending on our latency to the server. This isn't the case with SC1. Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game. Also in SC2, it's possible for the game to momentarily freeze and then skip ahead for one player, but for the other player to have a smooth experience the whole time. It's just really disappointing because SC:BW was designed mainly for dial-up modems. As connections improved, Blizzard did nothing, but fans were able to make adjustments to take advantage of our internet connections. And then SC2 comes out and I'm thinking it'll be nice to not have to use third party programs anymore. But then they totally sacrificed the quality of long distance connections, which kinda blew my mind with how much PR they had about building SC2 for esports. NA to NA and EU to EU and KR to KR all provide excellent online experiences but they must have known that SC2 as an esport would require good connections cross continent =[[[
Youre my starcraft 2 hero Tyler and you live in my hometown, however youre a sc expert not an information systems expert.
Lets say you decide to play a game of chess with your friend who is 1 thousand miles away. You decide that the best way to handle numerous issues of cheating and logistics issues is to have a mediator. Bob will be the mediator he will keep track of the gameboard each player will phone bob with their piece movements so he can keep official tally and because he is neutral you can rest assured there will be no fiddling with the rules. Everything is recorded, documented and fair the downside side is you have to wait for bob to get around to making the moves when you call it in.
That is a very basic look on how sc1/2 b.net worked. The server is acting as the mediator constantly checking on what you and your opponent is doing preventing cheating or the moves being played out of order(they are done based on when the server responds to your action). If you compare sc1 BNET latency performance with sc2 BNET performance and they have made huge strides. Its really night and day there.
ICCUP was great because of the super low latency it could achieve because it took the server loops out of the equation. Its not your comp telling the server what its doing then the server sending back that info to you and your competitor its more of a he said she said with your computer doing what you told it do and his the same with the occasional attempt to reconcile little differences. You gave up huge amount of sync stability and integrity protections for super low lag. Infact to discourage the rampant cheating there was the anti-hack launcher that in many leagues had to bribe you with more points because it caused .......drumroll......more lag. The antihack program itself wasnt very robust at in order to still achieve better than bnet latency and the league still required a manual banlist to keep thigns under control which is not at all viable for sc2 because of the difference in size of community.
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I honestly don't see why this thread is even still here or this long. How could you possibly even attempt to argue against inviting koreans to the NASL? Just because pokebunny is afraid his friends aren't good enough to compete with the koreans? Seriously for the best show NASL would want to invite the BEST players, even if it means there would be more koreans and eus than americans.
Yes I'm american, yes I have american friends I'd love to see in the NASL, but if they aren't good enough, then they don't deserve to be there. If this sort of protectionism that people want will only make NA fall even further behind in skill. If any koreans that can qualify are allowed in and come in and own the americans, then it would give americans a drive to get better.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On March 17 2011 05:14 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 05:09 Pudge_172 wrote:
The way this league is structured(13 weeks), it should be heavily NA/EU.
Just saw your edit..... The only time I'm going to be quiet is when I'm banned...... Indeed, a 13 week long league does lean more towards NA/EU. It's like how coke tastes darker than square.
lol this comment is awesome.
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On March 17 2011 05:18 Lennon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:04 TRG wrote:On March 16 2011 10:00 Lennon wrote:
Inviting the top Koreans will hinder the foreign scene growth because they will dominate. You obviously have no clue on how to improve yourself or game play. What do you do to get better? Play with people worse than you? No. You play with people who are better than you, who you can learn from. Sometimes it takes getting your ass kicked to learn you need to step your game up. Don't say foolish things like this, it's completely ignorant. Bad day? Re-read my statement. It's not wrong.
Yes it is. A defeatist attitude will hinder western esports growth.
Even if the Korean's dominate, some foreigners will rise up and do well, and get tons of fans. They'll show they're willing to play against the best and put up a fight. People will respect that.
That why the fans love Idra, Huk, Jinro, etc... all of them showed they were willing to face the best. They want it.
Look at the TSL... its gonna rock because they brought the best of the best!
Have hope buddy... people have done more amazing things in this world than beat Koreans at SC :D
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On March 17 2011 05:19 abominare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 04:43 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 17 2011 04:13 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 03:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
As long as the KR ladder remains strong, Americans have this opportunity (though Blizzard needs to make it easier for an American to connect to the KR server and get latency like in SC:BW). Never going to happen.* The reason for the apparent low latency in BW was because of where the servers were located, or not in the case of direct peer to peer games. You can't specifically choose what server, know where it is or dictate how you play SC2 so you can never get the lowest possible latency. Then of course there is a physical limitation in how fast information can travel over the pacific and back again. The BW engine is also so terrible that it actually makes high latency less noticeable, it's simplicity Vs stability in netcode. SC2 has much more robust netcode that tries to insure equality and a consistent connection, but increases latency due to the number of loopbacks to the server. SC2 is extremely unlikely to have desync errors and problems of that type, actions not registering etc, but that stability comes at the cost of more noticeable lag when the latency does increase. *if it ever does it will be at the same time they implement LAN play. This sucks because SC2 seems to be worse in every way compared to SC1. For example, if I'm playing on KR server, and if my opponent and I give a command simultaneously, his command happens first. In this way, our games are out of sync. We do things at different times depending on our latency to the server. This isn't the case with SC1. Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game. Also in SC2, it's possible for the game to momentarily freeze and then skip ahead for one player, but for the other player to have a smooth experience the whole time. It's just really disappointing because SC:BW was designed mainly for dial-up modems. As connections improved, Blizzard did nothing, but fans were able to make adjustments to take advantage of our internet connections. And then SC2 comes out and I'm thinking it'll be nice to not have to use third party programs anymore. But then they totally sacrificed the quality of long distance connections, which kinda blew my mind with how much PR they had about building SC2 for esports. NA to NA and EU to EU and KR to KR all provide excellent online experiences but they must have known that SC2 as an esport would require good connections cross continent =[[[ Youre my starcraft 2 hero Tyler and you live in my hometown, however youre a sc expert not an information systems expert. Lets say you decide to play a game of chess with your friend who is 1 thousand miles away. You decide that the best way to handle numerous issues of cheating and logistics issues is to have a mediator. Bob will be the mediator he will keep track of the gameboard each player will phone bob with their piece movements so he can keep official tally and because he is neutral you can rest assured there will be no fiddling with the rules. Everything is recorded, documented and fair the downside side is you have to wait for bob to get around to making the moves when you call it in. That is a very basic look on how sc1/2 b.net worked. The server is acting as the mediator constantly checking on what you and your opponent is doing preventing cheating or the moves being played out of order(they are done based on when the server responds to your action). If you compare sc1 BNET latency performance with sc2 BNET performance and they have made huge strides. Its really night and day there. ICCUP was great because of the super low latency it could achieve because it took the server loops out of the equation. Its not your comp telling the server what its doing then the server sending back that info to you and your competitor its more of a he said she said with your computer doing what you told it do and his the same with the occasional attempt to reconcile little differences. You gave up huge amount of sync stability and integrity protections for super low lag. Infact to discourage the rampant cheating there was the anti-hack launcher that in many leagues had to bribe you with more points because it caused .......drumroll......more lag. The antihack program itself wasnt very robust at in order to still achieve better than bnet latency and the league still required a manual banlist to keep thigns under control which is not at all viable for sc2 because of the difference in size of community.
I'm not sure if you are an information systems expert yourself but I vividly remember, living in europe back in early sc1 days, being able to connect to USEast and play there without much too much lag, at least as far as 1v1 was concerned. And that was back with a 56k modem.
Now we have completely segregated regions, oh wait they'll let you play on another one if you buy more copies of the game. Obviously a COUGH technical issue there. Yeah, Bnet 2.0 is a big letdown in pretty much every way and this was news during beta. But the masses were told to shut up and BELIEVE. Guess we see how that turned out.
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On March 17 2011 05:24 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 05:18 Lennon wrote:On March 16 2011 10:04 TRG wrote:On March 16 2011 10:00 Lennon wrote:
Inviting the top Koreans will hinder the foreign scene growth because they will dominate. You obviously have no clue on how to improve yourself or game play. What do you do to get better? Play with people worse than you? No. You play with people who are better than you, who you can learn from. Sometimes it takes getting your ass kicked to learn you need to step your game up. Don't say foolish things like this, it's completely ignorant. Bad day? Re-read my statement. It's not wrong. Yes it is. A defeatist attitude will hinder western esports growth. Even if the Korean's dominate, some foreigners will rise up and do well, and get tons of fans. They'll show they're willing to play against the best and put up a fight. People will respect that. That why the fans love Idra, Huk, Jinro, etc... all of them showed they were willing to face the best. They want it. Look at the TSL... its gonna rock because they brought the best of the best! Have hope buddy... people have done more amazing things in this world than beat Koreans at SC :D
HuK, Jinro, IdrA are a few people. I'm talking about overall growth into mainstream. The majority of people have defeatist attitudes. If something is easier to win, the more of a shot the person believes s/he has. If the Koreans dominate NASL, and by dominate I mean the top 16 players are Korean, most people will think "I don't have a shot at this; I won't bother". It hinders professional gaming growth into mainstream.
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I wish I could care about the application videos, but I don't. Could be for the better or worse but feels a bit "pro-wrestling" going for cool, entertaining characters, original moves while using the "sport" as a setting.
Some players are cool, entertaining, original while being top tier SC2 players and thats great. But what I look for in watching sport is watching the best be amazing at what they do. I don't care that Michael Vick runs some underground dog-fighting arena in his basement, that Wayne Rooney sleeps with prostitutes, that Terrell Owens is a prick 99% of the time or that Idra tells the Korean ladder to go fuck themselves, I care that they are pretty sick at what they do in game. I appreciate that people care more about stuff like that and that's great for them.
Thus, bring the best, have a tourney that actually means something and if there are people that want to run their mouths and become the next Stone Cold Steve Austin then that's cool too and give them the platforms to become famous but quality of the games comes first.
Unique backstories and playstyles eventually turn up anyways, they just need to be worked a bit. e.g. Jinro getting nowhere then exploding, Fruitdealers background, Nestea being a relatively weak BW pro, HuK rising through Code A, Haypro and Ret with their backs to the wall, MC sentry/zealot, MKP marine action, Alicia with DTs, MVP & Boxer getting stomped, sanzenith going undefeated through the death group etc.
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On March 17 2011 05:32 GrackGyver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 05:19 abominare wrote:On March 17 2011 04:43 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 17 2011 04:13 Kazang wrote:On March 17 2011 03:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
As long as the KR ladder remains strong, Americans have this opportunity (though Blizzard needs to make it easier for an American to connect to the KR server and get latency like in SC:BW). Never going to happen.* The reason for the apparent low latency in BW was because of where the servers were located, or not in the case of direct peer to peer games. You can't specifically choose what server, know where it is or dictate how you play SC2 so you can never get the lowest possible latency. Then of course there is a physical limitation in how fast information can travel over the pacific and back again. The BW engine is also so terrible that it actually makes high latency less noticeable, it's simplicity Vs stability in netcode. SC2 has much more robust netcode that tries to insure equality and a consistent connection, but increases latency due to the number of loopbacks to the server. SC2 is extremely unlikely to have desync errors and problems of that type, actions not registering etc, but that stability comes at the cost of more noticeable lag when the latency does increase. *if it ever does it will be at the same time they implement LAN play. This sucks because SC2 seems to be worse in every way compared to SC1. For example, if I'm playing on KR server, and if my opponent and I give a command simultaneously, his command happens first. In this way, our games are out of sync. We do things at different times depending on our latency to the server. This isn't the case with SC1. Commands given simultaneously in the real world happen simultaneously in the game. Also in SC2, it's possible for the game to momentarily freeze and then skip ahead for one player, but for the other player to have a smooth experience the whole time. It's just really disappointing because SC:BW was designed mainly for dial-up modems. As connections improved, Blizzard did nothing, but fans were able to make adjustments to take advantage of our internet connections. And then SC2 comes out and I'm thinking it'll be nice to not have to use third party programs anymore. But then they totally sacrificed the quality of long distance connections, which kinda blew my mind with how much PR they had about building SC2 for esports. NA to NA and EU to EU and KR to KR all provide excellent online experiences but they must have known that SC2 as an esport would require good connections cross continent =[[[ Youre my starcraft 2 hero Tyler and you live in my hometown, however youre a sc expert not an information systems expert. Lets say you decide to play a game of chess with your friend who is 1 thousand miles away. You decide that the best way to handle numerous issues of cheating and logistics issues is to have a mediator. Bob will be the mediator he will keep track of the gameboard each player will phone bob with their piece movements so he can keep official tally and because he is neutral you can rest assured there will be no fiddling with the rules. Everything is recorded, documented and fair the downside side is you have to wait for bob to get around to making the moves when you call it in. That is a very basic look on how sc1/2 b.net worked. The server is acting as the mediator constantly checking on what you and your opponent is doing preventing cheating or the moves being played out of order(they are done based on when the server responds to your action). If you compare sc1 BNET latency performance with sc2 BNET performance and they have made huge strides. Its really night and day there. ICCUP was great because of the super low latency it could achieve because it took the server loops out of the equation. Its not your comp telling the server what its doing then the server sending back that info to you and your competitor its more of a he said she said with your computer doing what you told it do and his the same with the occasional attempt to reconcile little differences. You gave up huge amount of sync stability and integrity protections for super low lag. Infact to discourage the rampant cheating there was the anti-hack launcher that in many leagues had to bribe you with more points because it caused .......drumroll......more lag. The antihack program itself wasnt very robust at in order to still achieve better than bnet latency and the league still required a manual banlist to keep thigns under control which is not at all viable for sc2 because of the difference in size of community. I'm not sure if you are an information systems expert yourself but I vividly remember, living in europe back in early sc1 days, being able to connect to USEast and play there without much too much lag, at least as far as 1v1 was concerned. And that was back with a 56k modem. Now we have completely segregated regions, oh wait they'll let you play on another one if you buy more copies of the game. Obviously a COUGH technical issue there. Yeah, Bnet 2.0 is a big letdown in pretty much every way and this was news during beta. But the masses were told to shut up and BELIEVE. Guess we see how that turned out.
I should clarify more because realms were created to help solve issues of trans oceanic play. IF you were to play prior to that it was damn near impossible (it still sucked afterwards your letting the nostalgia get to you) By making two separate hubs on the different pipelines (that info does follow specific infrastructure routes and placement can be very key) they were able to help with the latency. However Sc2 in North America is in a centralized location removed from those previously used routes because it was decided to split the groups up by region in order to give the best experience for the largest market groups, which sadly doesn't always include the I wanna play korea segment.
The hardest thing for this community to understand is that money and bandwidth doesnt grow on trees.
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On March 17 2011 05:34 Lennon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 05:24 dsousa wrote:On March 17 2011 05:18 Lennon wrote:On March 16 2011 10:04 TRG wrote:On March 16 2011 10:00 Lennon wrote:
Inviting the top Koreans will hinder the foreign scene growth because they will dominate. You obviously have no clue on how to improve yourself or game play. What do you do to get better? Play with people worse than you? No. You play with people who are better than you, who you can learn from. Sometimes it takes getting your ass kicked to learn you need to step your game up. Don't say foolish things like this, it's completely ignorant. Bad day? Re-read my statement. It's not wrong. Yes it is. A defeatist attitude will hinder western esports growth. Even if the Korean's dominate, some foreigners will rise up and do well, and get tons of fans. They'll show they're willing to play against the best and put up a fight. People will respect that. That why the fans love Idra, Huk, Jinro, etc... all of them showed they were willing to face the best. They want it. Look at the TSL... its gonna rock because they brought the best of the best! Have hope buddy... people have done more amazing things in this world than beat Koreans at SC :D HuK, Jinro, IdrA are a few people. I'm talking about overall growth into mainstream. The majority of people have defeatist attitudes. If something is easier to win, the more of a shot the person believes s/he has. If the Koreans dominate NASL, and by dominate I mean the top 16 players are Korean, most people will think "I don't have a shot at this; I won't bother". It hinders professional gaming growth into mainstream.
It all depend on your attitude.... when some people see themselves getting their ass kicked, they get mad, they work hard and they fight back. Some people are motivated by that. Some fade away.
But to artificially segregate a league so as to exclude one country because they've worked harder at the game than others.... I think its doubtful that such a league would produce worthy champions.
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On March 17 2011 05:39 abominare wrote:
The hardest thing for this community to understand is that money and bandwidth doesnt grow on trees.
Blizzard: the starving ethiopian child of game developers.
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On March 17 2011 05:14 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 05:09 Pudge_172 wrote:
The way this league is structured(13 weeks), it should be heavily NA/EU.
Just saw your edit..... The only time I'm going to be quiet is when I'm banned...... Indeed, a 13 week long league does lean more towards NA/EU. It's like how coke tastes darker than square.
HAHAHAHA. Exactly.
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Blizzard not only doesn't even host the BW Bnet 1 servers, Bnet 2.0 almost certainly requires more bandwidth/money on their part. Not enough bandwidth/money is probably the worst excuse for this developer anyway.
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On March 17 2011 05:49 Gatsbi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 05:14 JustPassingBy wrote:On March 17 2011 05:09 Pudge_172 wrote:
The way this league is structured(13 weeks), it should be heavily NA/EU.
Just saw your edit..... The only time I'm going to be quiet is when I'm banned...... Indeed, a 13 week long league does lean more towards NA/EU. It's like how coke tastes darker than square. HAHAHAHA. Exactly.
is he just saying its apples n oranges? I am bit slow -_-
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On March 17 2011 05:52 dkim wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 05:49 Gatsbi wrote:On March 17 2011 05:14 JustPassingBy wrote:On March 17 2011 05:09 Pudge_172 wrote:
The way this league is structured(13 weeks), it should be heavily NA/EU.
Just saw your edit..... The only time I'm going to be quiet is when I'm banned...... Indeed, a 13 week long league does lean more towards NA/EU. It's like how coke tastes darker than square. HAHAHAHA. Exactly. is he just saying its apples n oranges? I am bit slow -_-
Yes, but in a much more awesome way.
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On March 17 2011 05:39 abominare wrote:
The hardest thing for this community to understand is that money and bandwidth doesnt grow on trees.
That's an excuse for an indie dev, not a company that runs world of warcraft.
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On March 17 2011 05:15 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 05:09 Pudge_172 wrote:On March 17 2011 05:07 Bobster wrote:On March 17 2011 05:02 Pudge_172 wrote:On March 17 2011 04:21 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 17 2011 04:10 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 03:56 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 17 2011 03:33 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 03:28 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 03:24 chenchen wrote:
Hey Pokebunny! Let's see you try to learn Korean, make an application video in Korean, and give interesting interviews in Korean.
pokebunny wouldn't because he doesn't want to be seen like he is in it for the monies..... what? I wouldn't because I don't care to be part of a scene where no one speaks the same language as me. I'm not blaming the players for wanting easy money, I'm saying I'd prefer they didn't play. The videos demonstrate, to me, that they aren't really the right players for the NASL. If you disagree, then that's your choice, and I respect that. If I wanted to go to korea and play competitively, I would certainly make an effort to learn korean. So you are perfectly ok with the NA/EU scene falling behind Korea in sc2 just like it did in BW? That's exactly what will happen without Koreans in this tournament. The scene will not get better without NA/EU players going against Koreans on a regular basis. And if you want to play professionally in Korea, you really don't have the time to learn Korean. Its not something that you can do quickly. And all your time will be spent playing the game. Tyler is 100% correct. Adding Koreans to the NASL legitimizes this competition and will raise the skill level. How are players supposed to get better when they face inferior competition all the time? would Huk, Jinro, Idra and other guys that have been to Korea be as good as they are without their time spent in Korea? Absolutely not. We cannot replicate that level of play without competing against the Koreans. And if people really want the scene to grow in the west, the skill level needs to reach the Koreans sooner than later. Yea I'm ok with us being worse than koreans. They're already so much farther down the path, its inevitable, I'd rather us keep our scene interesting locally. I'm just gonna say that is a terrible attitude. Why don't you want to be the best of the best? The attitude like that won't grow eSports in the West. Why do you think more people watch the Premier League than MLS. Because its the best players. It's not going to be very interesting locally without involving the best players in the world. It's going to be just like BW then. If you already have a Premier League in soccer/futbol, why would you want another league with those same exact players. If 50 of the current GSL Code A and Code S players end up in the NASL, I agree with you. Until then, enjoy the differences. Why would you even want more than half of the same players in this league? The way this league is structured(13 weeks), it should be heavily NA/EU. Just saw your edit..... The only time I'm going to be quiet is when I'm banned...... Umm because those players provide the best games. Its pretty obvious that if the MLS could get the same players as the Premier league they would and they would be more popular because of it. The only thing is that its unrealistic in soccer to do so. In SC2 its not. I want to see NA/EU players become the best in the world. Thats not going to happen without Korean competition.
You do realize that just getting their faces smashed in by Koreans repeatedly isn't going to make them better by osmosis or something, right?
Until the North American/European scene finds a way to motivate players to take up the Korean practice regimen and make it fiscally possible, it will always fall behind, I don't care if there are 5 or 15 or 50 Koreans in the NASL. That was/is the problem with BW, and that is why players are falling behind again in SC2 now. Koreans aren't wired to "do better" at SC2, it's not "in their blood," as evidenced by Jinro and IdrA both making it deep into GSLs. They just have the availability to make a living by playing the game and solely focusing on the game.
In a sense, it would be better for Koreans to NOT be able to participate at ALL in NASL, because that would make damn sure the prize money fell into the hands of NA/EU players who could then potentially afford to practice constantly and improve at the rate the Koreans are improving. The practice houses being established are a great step in the right direction, but if they still have to work to pay rent and electricity and all of their other bills, then they're being hindered in a way that the Koreans are not.
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On March 16 2011 17:54 papaz wrote:
Obviously, looking at the poll, Pokebunny isn't speaking for the majority.
People want to watch the best of the best duke it out.
Sorry, but there are no "epic" stories behind 18-23 year old guys playing starcraft 2 that is going to make me "attached" to NASL. Just because they speak english and tell me about what they do in their spare time isn't going to make me wanna buy or watch the NASL.
The only thing that will make me watch the NASL is if the competition is at its highest level. Period.
Yea if you look at 90% of the VOD's they are just average boring people that are good at sc2 there is nothing really unique or crazy about them, 90% of them said nope i dont have any rivals, i love some of the players but not because of their crazy personalities for the most part i love them because they are good at the game, most of those Application VOD's are pretty boring and alot of those players will be the ones in the NASL i actually found the korean ones the most entertaining especially july zerg laughing the whole way through and trying to speak broken english it was hilarious.
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I want to note one thing for people asking why have two leagues with the same players: MSL/OSL has been working with the same pool of players for a long time now and it's worked out perfectly well. Every MSL and every OSL has a unique feel to it and it even created an interesting dynamic with measuring player skill in regards to how they're doing in each league, and also there's the enormous accomplishment of winning both in the same "season", which no current SC2 accomplishment rivals.
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On March 17 2011 06:03 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 05:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 17 2011 05:09 Pudge_172 wrote:On March 17 2011 05:07 Bobster wrote:On March 17 2011 05:02 Pudge_172 wrote:On March 17 2011 04:21 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 17 2011 04:10 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 03:56 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 17 2011 03:33 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 03:28 dkim wrote:
[quote]
pokebunny wouldn't because he doesn't want to be seen like he is in it for the monies..... what? I wouldn't because I don't care to be part of a scene where no one speaks the same language as me. I'm not blaming the players for wanting easy money, I'm saying I'd prefer they didn't play. The videos demonstrate, to me, that they aren't really the right players for the NASL. If you disagree, then that's your choice, and I respect that. If I wanted to go to korea and play competitively, I would certainly make an effort to learn korean. So you are perfectly ok with the NA/EU scene falling behind Korea in sc2 just like it did in BW? That's exactly what will happen without Koreans in this tournament. The scene will not get better without NA/EU players going against Koreans on a regular basis. And if you want to play professionally in Korea, you really don't have the time to learn Korean. Its not something that you can do quickly. And all your time will be spent playing the game. Tyler is 100% correct. Adding Koreans to the NASL legitimizes this competition and will raise the skill level. How are players supposed to get better when they face inferior competition all the time? would Huk, Jinro, Idra and other guys that have been to Korea be as good as they are without their time spent in Korea? Absolutely not. We cannot replicate that level of play without competing against the Koreans. And if people really want the scene to grow in the west, the skill level needs to reach the Koreans sooner than later. Yea I'm ok with us being worse than koreans. They're already so much farther down the path, its inevitable, I'd rather us keep our scene interesting locally. I'm just gonna say that is a terrible attitude. Why don't you want to be the best of the best? The attitude like that won't grow eSports in the West. Why do you think more people watch the Premier League than MLS. Because its the best players. It's not going to be very interesting locally without involving the best players in the world. It's going to be just like BW then. If you already have a Premier League in soccer/futbol, why would you want another league with those same exact players. If 50 of the current GSL Code A and Code S players end up in the NASL, I agree with you. Until then, enjoy the differences. Why would you even want more than half of the same players in this league? The way this league is structured(13 weeks), it should be heavily NA/EU. Just saw your edit..... The only time I'm going to be quiet is when I'm banned...... Umm because those players provide the best games. Its pretty obvious that if the MLS could get the same players as the Premier league they would and they would be more popular because of it. The only thing is that its unrealistic in soccer to do so. In SC2 its not. I want to see NA/EU players become the best in the world. Thats not going to happen without Korean competition. You do realize that just getting their faces smashed in by Koreans repeatedly isn't going to make them better by osmosis or something, right? Until the North American/European scene finds a way to motivate players to take up the Korean practice regimen and make it fiscally possible, it will always fall behind, I don't care if there are 5 or 15 or 50 Koreans in the NASL. That was/is the problem with BW, and that is why players are falling behind again in SC2 now. Koreans aren't wired to "do better" at SC2, it's not "in their blood," as evidenced by Jinro and IdrA both making it deep into GSLs. They just have the availability to make a living by playing the game and solely focusing on the game. In a sense, it would be better for Koreans to NOT be able to participate at ALL in NASL, because that would make damn sure the prize money fell into the hands of NA/EU players who could then potentially afford to practice constantly and improve at the rate the Koreans are improving. The practice houses being established are a great step in the right direction, but if they still have to work to pay rent and electricity and all of their other bills, then they're being hindered in a way that the Koreans are not.
Thats not really that fair of an assesment , I agree that maybe NA/Eu players would benefit more fromm having the money as they are not supported as well by their teams. That doesnt mean that they should shy away fromm having the best competition in the world just because it would benefit white people more, that sounds terrible actually. GSL has done so much to try and include foreigners into their scene even having a pro gaming house where foreigners can practice in a korean like gaming house.
I honestly dont want to see any non pro gamers in the NASL wich is to say, i dont want to see people who have to support themselves by working , i want to see people who are 100% devoted to the game and have enough time to practice to be the best. This includes koreans this tournament shouldnt be for pro gamers barely scraping by competing against each other so they can put their next meal on the table, it should be for the best of the best who have support from their teams and sponsors players who can practice up to 12 hours a day, does anyone want to see someone in the NHL who isnt 100% commited and has to have a day job just to get by? hahaha that would be a joke.
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