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I think one people miss is the idea that Koreans aren't necessarily better naturally or by default. They are better because they have a tournament system(the GSL) which makes it effective for them to make SC2 their full time job. If the NASL is successful the same kind of thing will become possible for the pros who are currently high quality players but in cannot, because of economic realities, cannot play SC2 as their full time jobs. I don't think it would shock anyone to see European and NA players achieve at least a level of parity with Korean GSL players once they are able to devote the time to it. Jinro/Idra/Huk performance already provides a strong indication that NA/European folks are able to be highly competitive.
To that end I think its important to elevate the E-sports scene in the West in order to provide the same type of economic viability for a true "pro" in the West. Like it or not, personalities drive these sorts of things. New things need human interest as a platform from which to move from "Day 0 and Husky streaming cast of MLG Dallas" to "Tonight on ESPN-E Sport at 8:00- Jinro v. Idra in the Semi Finals of MLG Dallas." I don't know that having Korean pro's come over and win everything in sight(which I don't think is a given but highly likely) would be a productive thing for the NASL's long term mission.
To that end you could invite Koreans eventually, seasons 2-3, once a level of parity was achieved. That would add additional interest(the same reason the World Cup gets people to pay attention in to Soccer every few years in the United States or the Olympics). That could help grow interest promote the growth which, for economic reasons, increase the quality of the play by making practicing more economically viable.
An interesting discussion to be sure and I think some of the idea's mentioned in this thread are very worth wild.
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On March 17 2011 03:51 maahes wrote:
The thing you both share is this view that desire and amount of practice are all you need to get better at the top level of something competitive - I don't think you could be more incorrect. A crucial part of improvement is quality of practice. Korea's players currently have the far-and-away BEST quality of practice in the proscene because of the gaming house lifestyle. That's not going to change unless western teams also adopt it. I'm sure every team would love its most dedicated members living together, but they need sponsors to facilitate it. Who's going to sponsor a bunch of guys who get their 'teeth kicked in'/get 'stomped'?
Do you see why I'm weary of the Korean and Western scenes meshing? I fear it's only going to extend how long this disparity between the two cultures lasts - however, if MLG in EU/NA -and- NASL prove to be exciting events to the expert, the layman and the sponsor, that might evaporate very, very soon.
I think you missed the part where I talked about how pro-teams in the US are now adopting the gamer-house style (i.e.: EG, Fnatic/ROOT). But I do agree that quality of practice is certainly an important factor (as important as motivation and amount of practice, certainly).
As to your second point regarding sponsors:
Consider NASCAR: I don't know much about it, except that Jimmie Johnson (I think? Or someone!) has won it like 4-5 season running. I don't see Home Depot (or whoever sponsors the other cars) just giving up and going home because their teams didn't win. That's who will sponsor Western teams - because Western teams can sell products to westerners. I mean, as a sponsor, I'm sure they would rather have someone who is talked about and gets mentioned all the time, even if they never win (see, e.g., Anna Kournikova, Danika Patrick).
Sponsors will happily sponsor people as long as it moves their product. As long as they make tournaments, and have high finishes (even if they don't win), and are talked about in the community (even if they don't win), I think the sponsorship thing won't be an issue.
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On March 17 2011 03:56 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 03:33 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 03:28 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 03:24 chenchen wrote:
Hey Pokebunny! Let's see you try to learn Korean, make an application video in Korean, and give interesting interviews in Korean.
pokebunny wouldn't because he doesn't want to be seen like he is in it for the monies..... what? I wouldn't because I don't care to be part of a scene where no one speaks the same language as me. I'm not blaming the players for wanting easy money, I'm saying I'd prefer they didn't play. The videos demonstrate, to me, that they aren't really the right players for the NASL. If you disagree, then that's your choice, and I respect that. If I wanted to go to korea and play competitively, I would certainly make an effort to learn korean. So you are perfectly ok with the NA/EU scene falling behind Korea in sc2 just like it did in BW? That's exactly what will happen without Koreans in this tournament. The scene will not get better without NA/EU players going against Koreans on a regular basis. And if you want to play professionally in Korea, you really don't have the time to learn Korean. Its not something that you can do quickly. And all your time will be spent playing the game. Tyler is 100% correct. Adding Koreans to the NASL legitimizes this competition and will raise the skill level. How are players supposed to get better when they face inferior competition all the time? would Huk, Jinro, Idra and other guys that have been to Korea be as good as they are without their time spent in Korea? Absolutely not. We cannot replicate that level of play without competing against the Koreans. And if people really want the scene to grow in the west, the skill level needs to reach the Koreans sooner than later.
o_o!
Woe be it upon the person who thinks that tournaments are practice! Why is playing against someone in a tournament a better way to reach their skill level than copying their practice habits?
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On March 16 2011 06:42 motbob wrote:Inviting the top Koreans will make the NASL worse, for one main reason: the likes of MVP would trash the top foreigners in North America (barring maybe Idra) with no problems at all. It would not be close. If ST.Ace can smash some of the top Europeans without dropping a set, imagine what the very best players in Korea could do. That prospect does not appeal to me as a spectator, and I don't think it's an outcome that the NASL organizers want.
I think you are taking WAYYYY too much from IEM. Somebody has to win the tournament. Trying to paint ST.Ace as a subpar player is unfair. We've seen the top Koreans lose to some of these Koreans who you would define as subpar, and it simply isn't enough evidence to conclude that the top 30 players in the world are Korean. I think we all know that any player who lives in a team house is going to have a huge advantage over any players who don't. We can see what happens to players like Jinro, HuK, Ret, Idra when they are provided the same kind of training environment. The IEM games were not that lopsided.
We shouldn't shun the best players who want to compete in this league just because they've had the advantage of living in a team house. More teams are going to have their own houses in NA and in time, they will catch up... but I don't think we need to purposely leave out the best players in the world just to 'give white guys a chance to practice'.
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On March 17 2011 03:56 MooseyFate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 02:55 MooseyFate wrote:
-- Then we might want to limit the number non-NA players to prevent soccer syndrome. (Look at the World Cup. US soccer has such a small following because, no matter how entertaining the MLS games are, we usually perform poorly on a world stage compared to countries were soccer is HUGE). Can i just say, offtopic, the US doesn't do that poorly in football at all. In the WC they were in final 16 and only just went out, not bad at all for a country where it's not a big sport. Even if the US won a World Cup i bet everyone would forget about it soon enough. It reminds me when England won the Rugby WC, it was hyped up for a while and people who never watched it before talked about it, then after a while it went back to usual. Wasn't trying to go off topic or start a soccer discussion, just using it as a example of how NASL's popularity in the US will be somewhat dependent on how well US players perform. Shallow? Yes. True? Yes. Few people want to watch a league where the players you support will almost never have a chance of winning. The players who will support Korean players on the GSL will still continue to support then on the GSL if they aren't allowed to join NASL. That being said, my personal preference would be to allow players from any country to compete in NASL, without restrictions on numbers. In the long run, I think this would foster the most growth for NA players.
These shallow casual fans are not going to be the people watching 5 days and week, giving viewer numbers and paying for the VODs or whatever so i think it makes sense in a niche 'sport' like this to make the main fanbase number 1 priority.
What you are saying is correct although i really don't understand peopls unwillingness to be able to watch or support Koreans in the sport. I can't relate to a random European/NA player anymore than i can a Korean player, and i actually find the Korean eSports personalities far more interesting so far. I don't recall literally anything a foreign player has done outside of the game that somehow contributed to a storyline or showed something really genuinely interesting that makes me want to support them.
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United States10654 Posts
On March 17 2011 03:56 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 03:33 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 03:28 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 03:24 chenchen wrote:
Hey Pokebunny! Let's see you try to learn Korean, make an application video in Korean, and give interesting interviews in Korean.
pokebunny wouldn't because he doesn't want to be seen like he is in it for the monies..... what? I wouldn't because I don't care to be part of a scene where no one speaks the same language as me. I'm not blaming the players for wanting easy money, I'm saying I'd prefer they didn't play. The videos demonstrate, to me, that they aren't really the right players for the NASL. If you disagree, then that's your choice, and I respect that. If I wanted to go to korea and play competitively, I would certainly make an effort to learn korean. So you are perfectly ok with the NA/EU scene falling behind Korea in sc2 just like it did in BW? That's exactly what will happen without Koreans in this tournament. The scene will not get better without NA/EU players going against Koreans on a regular basis. And if you want to play professionally in Korea, you really don't have the time to learn Korean. Its not something that you can do quickly. And all your time will be spent playing the game. Tyler is 100% correct. Adding Koreans to the NASL legitimizes this competition and will raise the skill level. How are players supposed to get better when they face inferior competition all the time? would Huk, Jinro, Idra and other guys that have been to Korea be as good as they are without their time spent in Korea? Absolutely not. We cannot replicate that level of play without competing against the Koreans. And if people really want the scene to grow in the west, the skill level needs to reach the Koreans sooner than later.
Yea I'm ok with us being worse than koreans. They're already so much farther down the path, its inevitable, I'd rather us keep our scene interesting locally.
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On March 17 2011 04:10 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 03:56 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 17 2011 03:33 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 03:28 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 03:24 chenchen wrote:
Hey Pokebunny! Let's see you try to learn Korean, make an application video in Korean, and give interesting interviews in Korean.
pokebunny wouldn't because he doesn't want to be seen like he is in it for the monies..... what? I wouldn't because I don't care to be part of a scene where no one speaks the same language as me. I'm not blaming the players for wanting easy money, I'm saying I'd prefer they didn't play. The videos demonstrate, to me, that they aren't really the right players for the NASL. If you disagree, then that's your choice, and I respect that. If I wanted to go to korea and play competitively, I would certainly make an effort to learn korean. So you are perfectly ok with the NA/EU scene falling behind Korea in sc2 just like it did in BW? That's exactly what will happen without Koreans in this tournament. The scene will not get better without NA/EU players going against Koreans on a regular basis. And if you want to play professionally in Korea, you really don't have the time to learn Korean. Its not something that you can do quickly. And all your time will be spent playing the game. Tyler is 100% correct. Adding Koreans to the NASL legitimizes this competition and will raise the skill level. How are players supposed to get better when they face inferior competition all the time? would Huk, Jinro, Idra and other guys that have been to Korea be as good as they are without their time spent in Korea? Absolutely not. We cannot replicate that level of play without competing against the Koreans. And if people really want the scene to grow in the west, the skill level needs to reach the Koreans sooner than later. Yea I'm ok with us being worse than koreans. They're already so much farther down the path, its inevitable, I'd rather us keep our scene interesting locally.
What is this defeatist attitude it makes no sense. In SC2 there's no giant mechanical gap you need to make up to match the best. Theres NO reason NA/EU players can't compete like Grrr or Elky did many years ago in BW.
You just keep saying the same things over and over at this point though so it's not worth trying to convince you.
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On March 17 2011 04:04 kawaiiryuko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 03:51 maahes wrote:
The thing you both share is this view that desire and amount of practice are all you need to get better at the top level of something competitive - I don't think you could be more incorrect. A crucial part of improvement is quality of practice. Korea's players currently have the far-and-away BEST quality of practice in the proscene because of the gaming house lifestyle. That's not going to change unless western teams also adopt it. I'm sure every team would love its most dedicated members living together, but they need sponsors to facilitate it. Who's going to sponsor a bunch of guys who get their 'teeth kicked in'/get 'stomped'?
Do you see why I'm weary of the Korean and Western scenes meshing? I fear it's only going to extend how long this disparity between the two cultures lasts - however, if MLG in EU/NA -and- NASL prove to be exciting events to the expert, the layman and the sponsor, that might evaporate very, very soon. I think you missed the part where I talked about how pro-teams in the US are now adopting the gamer-house style (i.e.: EG, Fnatic/ROOT). But I do agree that quality of practice is certainly an important factor (as important as motivation and amount of practice, certainly). As to your second point regarding sponsors: Consider NASCAR: I don't know much about it, except that Jimmie Johnson (I think? Or someone!) has won it like 4-5 season running. I don't see Home Depot (or whoever sponsors the other cars) just giving up and going home because their teams didn't win. That's who will sponsor Western teams - because Western teams can sell products to westerners. I mean, as a sponsor, I'm sure they would rather have someone who is talked about and gets mentioned all the time, even if they never win (see, e.g., Anna Kournikova, Danika Patrick). Sponsors will happily sponsor people as long as it moves their product. As long as they make tournaments, and have high finishes (even if they don't win), and are talked about in the community (even if they don't win), I think the sponsorship thing won't be an issue.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree - my concerns remain.
EG and fnatic both already have sponsors and aren't just SC2 organizations, though, right? They kindof prove my point - those teams that have the financial backing have the boon of that lifestyle.
ROOT, somehow, still lacks sponsors though they're full of bosses. 
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On March 17 2011 03:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
As long as the KR ladder remains strong, Americans have this opportunity (though Blizzard needs to make it easier for an American to connect to the KR server and get latency like in SC:BW).
Never going to happen.*
The reason for the apparent low latency in BW was because of where the servers were located, or not in the case of direct peer to peer games. You can't specifically choose what server, know where it is or dictate how you play SC2 so you can never get the lowest possible latency. Then of course there is a physical limitation in how fast information can travel over the pacific and back again.
The BW engine is also so terrible that it actually makes high latency less noticeable, it's simplicity Vs stability in netcode. SC2 has much more robust netcode that tries to insure equality and a consistent connection, but increases latency due to the number of loopbacks to the server. SC2 is extremely unlikely to have desync errors and problems of that type, actions not registering etc, but that stability comes at the cost of more noticeable lag when the latency does increase.
*if it ever does it will be at the same time they implement LAN play.
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On March 17 2011 04:06 maahes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 03:56 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 17 2011 03:33 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 03:28 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 03:24 chenchen wrote:
Hey Pokebunny! Let's see you try to learn Korean, make an application video in Korean, and give interesting interviews in Korean.
pokebunny wouldn't because he doesn't want to be seen like he is in it for the monies..... what? I wouldn't because I don't care to be part of a scene where no one speaks the same language as me. I'm not blaming the players for wanting easy money, I'm saying I'd prefer they didn't play. The videos demonstrate, to me, that they aren't really the right players for the NASL. If you disagree, then that's your choice, and I respect that. If I wanted to go to korea and play competitively, I would certainly make an effort to learn korean. So you are perfectly ok with the NA/EU scene falling behind Korea in sc2 just like it did in BW? That's exactly what will happen without Koreans in this tournament. The scene will not get better without NA/EU players going against Koreans on a regular basis. And if you want to play professionally in Korea, you really don't have the time to learn Korean. Its not something that you can do quickly. And all your time will be spent playing the game. Tyler is 100% correct. Adding Koreans to the NASL legitimizes this competition and will raise the skill level. How are players supposed to get better when they face inferior competition all the time? would Huk, Jinro, Idra and other guys that have been to Korea be as good as they are without their time spent in Korea? Absolutely not. We cannot replicate that level of play without competing against the Koreans. And if people really want the scene to grow in the west, the skill level needs to reach the Koreans sooner than later. o_o! Woe be it upon the person who thinks that tournaments are practice! Why is playing against someone in a tournament a better way to reach their skill level than copying their practice habits?
It's not just playing against the Koreans in the NASL that I'm talking about. You cannot deny the motivation factor that competing against Koreans will bring. We need more players playing on the Korean ladder. We need team houses for our players. Right now its just not there, and if we have a $100,000 tournament that is at a lower skill level than Korea, why would everyone change what they do to get better when they can win it with how they are living and training now? They wouldn't. You don't change something that is working for you. So the NA/EU scene will continue to fall behind Korea, unless we have direct competition with Korean.
What I'm saying is that I don't see teams really going above and beyond to copy the Korean's practice habits right now. It's a very difficult thing to do and there isn't much of a reason to do it when you can win tournaments like MLG in the way they are training right now. Bring over some Koreans to the NASL, raise the competition level, and the training and practice of NA/EU teams will also rise.
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On March 17 2011 04:13 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 03:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
As long as the KR ladder remains strong, Americans have this opportunity (though Blizzard needs to make it easier for an American to connect to the KR server and get latency like in SC:BW). Never going to happen.* The reason for the apparent low latency in BW was because of where the servers were located, or not in the case of direct peer to peer games. You can't specifically choose what server, know where it is or dictate how you play SC2 so you can never get the lowest possible latency. Then of course there is a physical limitation in how fast information can travel over the pacific and back again. The BW engine is also so terrible that it actually makes high latency less noticeable, it's simplicity Vs stability in netcode. SC2 has much more robust netcode that tries to insure equality and a consistent connection, but increases latency due to the number of loopbacks to the server. SC2 is extremely unlikely to have desync errors and problems of that type, actions not registering etc, but that stability comes at the cost of more noticeable lag when the latency does increase. *if it ever does it will be at the same time they implement LAN play.
Offtopic but:
I'm sure you know what you're talking about, i just wonder how you come to the conclusion the BW netcode is terrible in comparison when you admit there is noticeable lag. I don't recall ever having a desync or actions not registering on BW, and i played even on the Korean server fairly often. It's certainly not a bonus that you must use Bnet servers to connect no matter what, if anything just the fact it limits our options for connecting and playing against each other, when you used to have alternatives if one method didn't work such as Hamachi/ICCUP.
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On March 17 2011 04:10 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 03:56 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 17 2011 03:33 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 03:28 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 03:24 chenchen wrote:
Hey Pokebunny! Let's see you try to learn Korean, make an application video in Korean, and give interesting interviews in Korean.
pokebunny wouldn't because he doesn't want to be seen like he is in it for the monies..... what? I wouldn't because I don't care to be part of a scene where no one speaks the same language as me. I'm not blaming the players for wanting easy money, I'm saying I'd prefer they didn't play. The videos demonstrate, to me, that they aren't really the right players for the NASL. If you disagree, then that's your choice, and I respect that. If I wanted to go to korea and play competitively, I would certainly make an effort to learn korean. So you are perfectly ok with the NA/EU scene falling behind Korea in sc2 just like it did in BW? That's exactly what will happen without Koreans in this tournament. The scene will not get better without NA/EU players going against Koreans on a regular basis. And if you want to play professionally in Korea, you really don't have the time to learn Korean. Its not something that you can do quickly. And all your time will be spent playing the game. Tyler is 100% correct. Adding Koreans to the NASL legitimizes this competition and will raise the skill level. How are players supposed to get better when they face inferior competition all the time? would Huk, Jinro, Idra and other guys that have been to Korea be as good as they are without their time spent in Korea? Absolutely not. We cannot replicate that level of play without competing against the Koreans. And if people really want the scene to grow in the west, the skill level needs to reach the Koreans sooner than later. Yea I'm ok with us being worse than koreans. They're already so much farther down the path, its inevitable, I'd rather us keep our scene interesting locally.
I'm just gonna say that is a terrible attitude. Why don't you want to be the best of the best? The attitude like that won't grow eSports in the West. Why do you think more people watch the Premier League than MLS. Because its the best players. It's not going to be very interesting locally without involving the best players in the world. It's going to be just like BW then.
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On March 17 2011 04:13 maahes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 04:04 kawaiiryuko wrote:On March 17 2011 03:51 maahes wrote:
The thing you both share is this view that desire and amount of practice are all you need to get better at the top level of something competitive - I don't think you could be more incorrect. A crucial part of improvement is quality of practice. Korea's players currently have the far-and-away BEST quality of practice in the proscene because of the gaming house lifestyle. That's not going to change unless western teams also adopt it. I'm sure every team would love its most dedicated members living together, but they need sponsors to facilitate it. Who's going to sponsor a bunch of guys who get their 'teeth kicked in'/get 'stomped'?
Do you see why I'm weary of the Korean and Western scenes meshing? I fear it's only going to extend how long this disparity between the two cultures lasts - however, if MLG in EU/NA -and- NASL prove to be exciting events to the expert, the layman and the sponsor, that might evaporate very, very soon. I think you missed the part where I talked about how pro-teams in the US are now adopting the gamer-house style (i.e.: EG, Fnatic/ROOT). But I do agree that quality of practice is certainly an important factor (as important as motivation and amount of practice, certainly). As to your second point regarding sponsors: Consider NASCAR: I don't know much about it, except that Jimmie Johnson (I think? Or someone!) has won it like 4-5 season running. I don't see Home Depot (or whoever sponsors the other cars) just giving up and going home because their teams didn't win. That's who will sponsor Western teams - because Western teams can sell products to westerners. I mean, as a sponsor, I'm sure they would rather have someone who is talked about and gets mentioned all the time, even if they never win (see, e.g., Anna Kournikova, Danika Patrick). Sponsors will happily sponsor people as long as it moves their product. As long as they make tournaments, and have high finishes (even if they don't win), and are talked about in the community (even if they don't win), I think the sponsorship thing won't be an issue. I think we'll have to agree to disagree - my concerns remain. EG and fnatic both already have sponsors and aren't just SC2 organizations, though, right? They kindof prove my point - those teams that have the financial backing have the boon of that lifestyle. ROOT, somehow, still lacks sponsors though they're full of bosses.
Fair enough.  You are entitled to your concerns but I hope that they will eventually go away as eSports in the west thrives. (More importantly, I'm sure they'll go away as I'm inevitably proven to be right.  )
(PS: Concur re: ROOT. I'm sure sponsors will happen for them sooner rather than later, with that team!)
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On March 17 2011 04:10 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 03:56 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 17 2011 03:33 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 03:28 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 03:24 chenchen wrote:
Hey Pokebunny! Let's see you try to learn Korean, make an application video in Korean, and give interesting interviews in Korean.
pokebunny wouldn't because he doesn't want to be seen like he is in it for the monies..... what? I wouldn't because I don't care to be part of a scene where no one speaks the same language as me. I'm not blaming the players for wanting easy money, I'm saying I'd prefer they didn't play. The videos demonstrate, to me, that they aren't really the right players for the NASL. If you disagree, then that's your choice, and I respect that. If I wanted to go to korea and play competitively, I would certainly make an effort to learn korean. So you are perfectly ok with the NA/EU scene falling behind Korea in sc2 just like it did in BW? That's exactly what will happen without Koreans in this tournament. The scene will not get better without NA/EU players going against Koreans on a regular basis. And if you want to play professionally in Korea, you really don't have the time to learn Korean. Its not something that you can do quickly. And all your time will be spent playing the game. Tyler is 100% correct. Adding Koreans to the NASL legitimizes this competition and will raise the skill level. How are players supposed to get better when they face inferior competition all the time? would Huk, Jinro, Idra and other guys that have been to Korea be as good as they are without their time spent in Korea? Absolutely not. We cannot replicate that level of play without competing against the Koreans. And if people really want the scene to grow in the west, the skill level needs to reach the Koreans sooner than later. Yea I'm ok with us being worse than koreans. They're already so much farther down the path, its inevitable, I'd rather us keep our scene interesting locally.
I'm glad you don't represent us North Americans... You make us sound like quiters.
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United States10654 Posts
On March 17 2011 04:13 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 04:10 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 03:56 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 17 2011 03:33 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 03:28 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 03:24 chenchen wrote:
Hey Pokebunny! Let's see you try to learn Korean, make an application video in Korean, and give interesting interviews in Korean.
pokebunny wouldn't because he doesn't want to be seen like he is in it for the monies..... what? I wouldn't because I don't care to be part of a scene where no one speaks the same language as me. I'm not blaming the players for wanting easy money, I'm saying I'd prefer they didn't play. The videos demonstrate, to me, that they aren't really the right players for the NASL. If you disagree, then that's your choice, and I respect that. If I wanted to go to korea and play competitively, I would certainly make an effort to learn korean. So you are perfectly ok with the NA/EU scene falling behind Korea in sc2 just like it did in BW? That's exactly what will happen without Koreans in this tournament. The scene will not get better without NA/EU players going against Koreans on a regular basis. And if you want to play professionally in Korea, you really don't have the time to learn Korean. Its not something that you can do quickly. And all your time will be spent playing the game. Tyler is 100% correct. Adding Koreans to the NASL legitimizes this competition and will raise the skill level. How are players supposed to get better when they face inferior competition all the time? would Huk, Jinro, Idra and other guys that have been to Korea be as good as they are without their time spent in Korea? Absolutely not. We cannot replicate that level of play without competing against the Koreans. And if people really want the scene to grow in the west, the skill level needs to reach the Koreans sooner than later. Yea I'm ok with us being worse than koreans. They're already so much farther down the path, its inevitable, I'd rather us keep our scene interesting locally. What is this defeatist attitude it makes no sense. In SC2 there's no giant mechanical gap you need to make up to match the best. Theres NO reason NA/EU players can't compete like Grrr or Elky did many years ago in BW. You just keep saying the same things over and over at this point though so it's not worth trying to convince you.
Why would you try to convince me? No one is trying to convince anyone of anything. We're just discussing our ideas and opinions. I enjoy the discussion because its making me think more about what I want to see either way. I'll be satisfied with the league no matter who they invite, its a fantastic tournament.
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I'm surprised at the degree to which I've changed my mind on this over the course of reading this thread. Initially, I wasn't sure I wanted many Koreans in the league, although I felt we needed some. Now I'm thinking it's crazy to exclude them. Excellent points from many of you, and now I feel the need to read up on Japanese baseball.
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On March 17 2011 04:10 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 03:56 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 17 2011 03:33 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 03:28 dkim wrote:On March 17 2011 03:24 chenchen wrote:
Hey Pokebunny! Let's see you try to learn Korean, make an application video in Korean, and give interesting interviews in Korean.
pokebunny wouldn't because he doesn't want to be seen like he is in it for the monies..... what? I wouldn't because I don't care to be part of a scene where no one speaks the same language as me. I'm not blaming the players for wanting easy money, I'm saying I'd prefer they didn't play. The videos demonstrate, to me, that they aren't really the right players for the NASL. If you disagree, then that's your choice, and I respect that. If I wanted to go to korea and play competitively, I would certainly make an effort to learn korean. So you are perfectly ok with the NA/EU scene falling behind Korea in sc2 just like it did in BW? That's exactly what will happen without Koreans in this tournament. The scene will not get better without NA/EU players going against Koreans on a regular basis. And if you want to play professionally in Korea, you really don't have the time to learn Korean. Its not something that you can do quickly. And all your time will be spent playing the game. Tyler is 100% correct. Adding Koreans to the NASL legitimizes this competition and will raise the skill level. How are players supposed to get better when they face inferior competition all the time? would Huk, Jinro, Idra and other guys that have been to Korea be as good as they are without their time spent in Korea? Absolutely not. We cannot replicate that level of play without competing against the Koreans. And if people really want the scene to grow in the west, the skill level needs to reach the Koreans sooner than later. Yea I'm ok with us being worse than koreans. They're already so much farther down the path, its inevitable, I'd rather us keep our scene interesting locally.
Damn son, have some pride.
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The only reason why the Koreans would not be invited is because NA/EU is afraid that they'll have to start playing better.
Do we want the winner of the league to be "The best of the relatively mediocre"? Or do we want them to be "the best of the best".
With the new giant maps, the Korean games are far from boring, since we rarely see a cheese (except PvP, but that's normal) nowadays even in the GSL.
Invite the Koreans, and let the NA/EU get better!!!! I think if the players aren't used to playing someone of Korean level in constant competition, they will not get better. I think NA/EU players have full potential to beat Koreans as long as they train just as hard.
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United States10654 Posts
I'm beginning to see the positives of having koreans a little more, but I'd slightly prefer not having them. Nonetheless, I'm REALLY excited for the league to start.
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I posted this on reddit but I'll repost here.
Well the people/spectators would obviously want to see the best go at it, no question about that. Given the choice, you'd rather watch the UFC main card rather than preliminaries, you'd watch Silva over some random guys in another league, unless you knew the guys personally. You'd rather watch the national Toronto team rather than a local high school game.
The players on the other hand have an incentive to not invite koreans. It's generally known that the korean players are better than the NA/EU players, as evidenced by the GSL and how the best of the best, Idra, jinro came close but never end up winning and how the few koreans at IEM, who aren't even considered the best korean players, dominated the NA/EU players. If I wasn't the best and I knew I wasn't the best, I'd want to get rid of the competition, everyone would, especially when there is $100k on the line and you want to make a living off gaming. Some of the top players like IdrA probably don't care (he has a huge ego as well so maybe he's not the best example) if koreans or not come but lesser players will start voicing their opinions on how "it's not right for koreans to come", "we should make this a western thing" etc. It's obvious they have ulterior motives. Can't blame them though.
If you make this league like the OHL, then it'll be the OHL. The best players will eventually go to the NHL where the big fish are.
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EPT
