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dkim
United States255 Posts
On March 17 2011 03:24 chenchen wrote: Hey Pokebunny! Let's see you try to learn Korean, make an application video in Korean, and give interesting interviews in Korean. pokebunny wouldn't because he doesn't want to be seen like he is in it for the monies..... what? | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
Also, to Rekrul. I think it is absurd you bring racism into this. If it was purely racism then the people opposing invites to Koreans would also oppose invites to Foreign Asians like SeleCT, but that just isn't happening. Tribalism is different than racism. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On March 17 2011 03:20 StarBrift wrote: I think the biggest problem with it all is that NASL is invite based. It should have qualifiers like every other top tourney and thus the best players can qualify. Right now it feels more like North American Idol League. Problems with that: - if you make it regional LANs in NA, areas with really strong players will have an unfairly low chance. It would be a weird situation, but it might work. Foreigners could compete in the lans if they were physically present, but you'd be limited from participating in more than one or two of the lans. - if you make it online NA location only, people complain that KR/EU players don't get to play. - if you make it entirely open and just held on NA server, it will become the GSL Online. What solution do you suggest? | ||
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
Am I missing something, or wouldn't NASL simply bringing Koreans in who didn't go through the same application process as everyone else be totally unfair? I doubt that every best Korean player is going to want to commit to flying out to California and also having to play with lag during the group round. NASL has no reason to go and get the best players; they have enough faith in what they're doing that they believe the best players will come to the tournament. GSL doesn't have an online qualifier. To get in, you have to go to Korea. I don't think that NASL should be expected to bring in the Koreans until they show a similar level of commitment to the Western scene that people like Jinro and Idra did to the Eastern one. If the point is to grow e-sports in the West, then let's not artificially relocate the Eastern e-sports scene to the West. Make the scene and let them want to join it. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On March 17 2011 03:28 dkim wrote: pokebunny wouldn't because he doesn't want to be seen like he is in it for the monies..... what? I wouldn't because I don't care to be part of a scene where no one speaks the same language as me. I'm not blaming the players for wanting easy money, I'm saying I'd prefer they didn't play. The videos demonstrate, to me, that they aren't really the right players for the NASL. If you disagree, then that's your choice, and I respect that. If I wanted to go to korea and play competitively, I would certainly make an effort to learn korean. | ||
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acker
United States2958 Posts
Look at Jinro. He isn't Korean, and was...well, not too special among progamers. Then he went to Korea and put in a massive amount of effort to powerlevel the Korean way. And now he's a monster. If the NASL is to showcase the best and brightest in Starcraft 2, not inviting people because they put more effort into the game than others is ridiculous. If the NASL is some sort of consolation prize for people who don't work as hard, then it's understandable. And of course, there's probably some sort of middle ground between the two extremes. But I'm too biased in favor of 100% "showcasing the best" to see it. | ||
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ultramafia
221 Posts
On March 17 2011 03:31 zarepath wrote: Maybe they should invite the Koreans that actually applied. Am I missing something, or wouldn't NASL simply bringing Koreans in who didn't go through the same application process as everyone else be totally unfair? I doubt that every best Korean player is going to want to commit to flying out to California and also having to play with lag during the group round. NASL has no reason to go and get the best players; they have enough faith in what they're doing that they believe the best players will come to the tournament. GSL doesn't have an online qualifier. To get in, you have to go to Korea. I don't think that NASL should be expected to bring in the Koreans until they show a similar level of commitment to the Western scene that people like Jinro and Idra did to the Eastern one. If the point is to grow e-sports in the West, then let's not artificially relocate the Eastern e-sports scene to the West. Make the scene and let them want to join it. Where did you get the impression that they are going to invite players who haven't followed the application process? I haven't gotten that impression once from any post on this forum yet. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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Aikin
Austria532 Posts
On March 17 2011 03:30 Pokebunny wrote: Problems with that: - if you make it regional LANs in NA, areas with really strong players will have an unfairly low chance. It would be a weird situation, but it might work. Foreigners could compete in the lans if they were physically present, but you'd be limited from participating in more than one or two of the lans. - if you make it online NA location only, people complain that KR/EU players don't get to play. - if you make it entirely open and just held on NA server, it will become the GSL Online. What solution do you suggest? The idea of qualifiers is quit nice. I´d really like if they´d host qualifiers online for each individual region. Like 20 Spots for NA, 20 for EU and 10 for Korea or something like that. Or just invite 50 % of the people and have qualifiers for the rest of the spots. Of course they want known players with huge fanbaseses to play in their league but they also said they wanted the best. Qualifiers can be quite random(bracket luck etc.) but I think they´d be fairer then just letting the admins decide who´ll play. Obviously NASL already choose their format I guess but from what I understand the seasons wont all be invite based? There will be qualifiers for season two if I wasn´t mistaken. A question though did they already announce when the player will get announced? I think Mondis chances would rise enormous if he´d do well in TSL. | ||
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nvs.
Canada3609 Posts
The videos demonstrate, to me, that they aren't really the right players for the NASL. Ya those application VODs are really what make or break my opinion when I look at what players I would want in the league... Except Tylers.  | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On March 17 2011 02:53 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think it widens the skill gap. It just moves the range of skill that's being covered. It's more interesting to watch players 1-50 in a competition than 26-75. Hell, even if the skill gap between #1 and #50 is bigger than the gap between #26 and #75, I still think it's worth it. If it's going to be one-sided either way, I'd rather watch the best player in the world stomp someone than the 26th best player in the world. To put it more simply, there's two different variables we're messing with here: competition format and player pool. Having the best players in the world is the best you can do for the player pool. I can imagine some situations where this isn't true, but they're rare and I don't think this is one of them. The format is set. I was discussing it in order to say that if there are indeed a lot of uninteresting games during the group stage of NASL, then I blame the format more than the player pool. Honestly I think they're being ambitious with this format -- ambitious that they can make everyone interested in every single one of these games. They're gonna work their asses off to make it happen but it's gonna be the format they're working against more than the player pool. You are right, but it's not about being right or wrong. Most of us just don't want to see korean winning everyday because we want / need players that we can interact with. Having you, IdrA or Jinro in a random tournament is such a huge hype, mainly because we know your background, we will read your interviews, and we will eventually likes you or hates you: it's not only about the gaming skill, it's also about personnality and cheering for an individual. Things like that are not possible with korean (except Boxer or MC of course). PS: You're damn interesting to read Tyler, but I will never be able to read you again without seeing the fur on your chest. | ||
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
I like how TSL3 did it--they picked some of the clearly best players, as well as the ones they knew people would want to see (all the foreigners). But TSL3 wasn't a 32 person Korean invite. I don't see how inviting 5-10 of the best Koreans who applied out of a 50 player pool ruins the tournament. | ||
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Zeri
United States773 Posts
On March 17 2011 03:44 WhiteDog wrote: You are right, but it's not about being right or wrong. Most of us just don't want to see korean winning everyday because we want / need players that we can interact with. Having you, IdrA or Jinro in a random tournament is such a huge hype, mainly because we know your background, we will read your interviews, and we will eventually likes you or hates you. Things like that are not possible with korean. PS: You're damn interesting to read Tyler, but I will never be able to read you again without seeing the fur on your chest. I don't think you know what you want. Yes we want to see our players winning. But we want to see them winning because they are the best of the best. This will take time. But it will also take having Koreans in the NASL. People don't want to see their players win because they are the un-best at starcraft. The reason foreigners in GSL is so hype is because they ARE playing the best and are doing well. So saying having Koreans would deter people is sort of the opposite of what is true. We need koreans in it, yea they might win a bunch, but eventually, as the skill gap gets more close, some of our westerners will start winning. Yea. fan interaction and feeling a connection to your favorite pros is great. but it doesn't mean anything if they aren't playing the best in the world. | ||
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Bijan
United States286 Posts
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maahes`ra
United States255 Posts
On March 16 2011 22:55 Euronyme wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 16 2011 22:40 maahes wrote: I don't know how I truly feel about this, but my gut instinct is to agree with Pokebunny. I do so for cultural reasons, primarily. The Korean culture of progaming is much more refined when it comes to perfecting one's ability, I think. Gaming houses are like dojos or barracks - the majority of progamers have no obligation other than to get really fucking good at Starcraft, and their entire lifestyle is centered around that. They had an architecture to use thanks to years of BW and there hasn't been a use of that model in the west yet, has there? I mean, yes, EG has a 'house' in AZ, but isn't there some creepy guy that watches porn on his huge flatscreen TV there as a room mate? @_@ That's not to say that western gamers aren't SC2 focused - but to be immersed in something, to live with all your team mates and completely gel into the competitive world is a lot different than hanging out with your friends on Skype while customing in important ways. So... My hope, and I think the best thing for competitive SC2, is for e-sports in the west to grow and become a lifestyle like it is in Korea. The tournaments are there for the winning, but the teams are displaced and it's more like a hobby than a way of life for most of those breaking their backs to get good. The only difference between the two cultures in terms of skill is methods of practice according to those much knowledgeable than myself - I don't think that the west will ever close that gap if a bunch of dudes from Seoul are going about wrecking it up in every hemisphere. Once ROOT, Mouz and their contemporaries have their strongest players bunking together and trying to find the One True Style on the meal ticket of their sponsors, then yes, yes, yes, globalize the shit out of NASL, but until then, this should be our baby, or we're going to be eternal underdogs. That's just my gut reaction, at least. Ok so some stuff are wrong here. Most western pro gamers play just as much as koreans, the difference is that the koreans live with eachother and has the possibility to discuss tactics IRL/AFK. Actually there's been word of HuK actually practicing more than almost all of the Koreans. The house with the creepy guy was a place Machine got to stay at when he put up an ad in a news paper or something like that. It's not a pro house by any means. Right now I think Korea is so far ahead because their top players are actually top of the line SC:BW pro gamers. They simply have the advantage, but it will probably flatten out as westeners currently, although still in a smaller scale, are living under the same conditions as the Koreans. For intance there's the root / fnatic team house, the liquidians in the oGs house, the EG team house etc. The future for foreigner esports is quite bright imo. If we let Koreans in the NASL, they will probably stomp the first couple of seasons, but on the other hand, westeners will improve faster, as they'll get first hand experience of what's going on on the other server. I don't understand what you posted, it's like you didn't read or respond to anything that I said at all other than the creepy guy I vaguely remember being related to EG. o_O Getting a few brutal losses on your record in a tournament isn't going to make anyone 'improve faster', though. On March 16 2011 22:58 kawaiiryuko wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On March 16 2011 22:40 maahes wrote: That's not to say that western gamers aren't SC2 focused - but to be immersed in something, to live with all your team mates and completely gel into the competitive world is a lot different than hanging out with your friends on Skype while customing in important ways. That's just my gut reaction, at least. Well, I think most pro-gamers (or really, anyone in any competitive field) want to win. Those that succeed typically have certain type of personality that makes not-winning probably the worst feeling in the world. That's the motivation to get better - and that's what having the Koreans in the tournament will do. The Koreans will (likely) kick the teeth in for most of the field. Those that will take that beating and use it as motivation to get better will come back and face them again. And again. And again. Until the western scene becomes as good, if not better, than the Koreans. I don't think there's any magic to it - like any other sport, it comes down to dedication, stubbornness, training and practice. So, if the Korean method of housing teammates together is really better (and maybe it is?), then pro-gamers will adopt it (as you see EG and ROOT/fnatic do). And you, for some reason, decided to edit out the two extensive paragraphs where I discuss what you apparently correct me on. The thing you both share is this view that desire and amount of practice are all you need to get better at the top level of something competitive - I don't think you could be more incorrect. A crucial part of improvement is quality of practice. Korea's players currently have the far-and-away BEST quality of practice in the proscene because of the gaming house lifestyle. That's not going to change unless western teams also adopt it. I'm sure every team would love its most dedicated members living together, but they need sponsors to facilitate it. Who's going to sponsor a bunch of guys who get their 'teeth kicked in'/get 'stomped'? Do you see why I'm weary of the Korean and Western scenes meshing? I fear it's only going to extend how long this disparity between the two cultures lasts - however, if MLG in EU/NA -and- NASL prove to be exciting events to the expert, the layman and the sponsor, that might evaporate very, very soon. | ||
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kawaiiryuko
United States368 Posts
Protectionism is rarely good policy!  | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On March 17 2011 03:33 Pokebunny wrote: I wouldn't because I don't care to be part of a scene where no one speaks the same language as me. I'm not blaming the players for wanting easy money, I'm saying I'd prefer they didn't play. The videos demonstrate, to me, that they aren't really the right players for the NASL. If you disagree, then that's your choice, and I respect that. If I wanted to go to korea and play competitively, I would certainly make an effort to learn korean. So you are perfectly ok with the NA/EU scene falling behind Korea in sc2 just like it did in BW? That's exactly what will happen without Koreans in this tournament. The scene will not get better without NA/EU players going against Koreans on a regular basis. And if you want to play professionally in Korea, you really don't have the time to learn Korean. Its not something that you can do quickly. And all your time will be spent playing the game. Tyler is 100% correct. Adding Koreans to the NASL legitimizes this competition and will raise the skill level. How are players supposed to get better when they face inferior competition all the time? would Huk, Jinro, Idra and other guys that have been to Korea be as good as they are without their time spent in Korea? Absolutely not. We cannot replicate that level of play without competing against the Koreans. And if people really want the scene to grow in the west, the skill level needs to reach the Koreans sooner than later. | ||
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MooseyFate
United States237 Posts
Can i just say, offtopic, the US doesn't do that poorly in football at all. In the WC they were in final 16 and only just went out, not bad at all for a country where it's not a big sport. Even if the US won a World Cup i bet everyone would forget about it soon enough. It reminds me when England won the Rugby WC, it was hyped up for a while and people who never watched it before talked about it, then after a while it went back to usual. Wasn't trying to go off topic or start a soccer discussion, just using it as a example of how NASL's popularity in the US will be somewhat dependent on how well US players perform. Shallow? Yes. True? Yes. Few people want to watch a league where the players you support will almost never have a chance of winning. The players who will support Korean players on the GSL will still continue to support then on the GSL if they aren't allowed to join NASL. That being said, my personal preference would be to allow players from any country to compete in NASL, without restrictions on numbers. In the long run, I think this would foster the most growth for NA players. | ||
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CheeseGrater
United States290 Posts
On March 17 2011 03:33 Pokebunny wrote: I wouldn't because I don't care to be part of a scene where no one speaks the same language as me. I'm not blaming the players for wanting easy money, I'm saying I'd prefer they didn't play. The videos demonstrate, to me, that they aren't really the right players for the NASL. If you disagree, then that's your choice, and I respect that. If I wanted to go to korea and play competitively, I would certainly make an effort to learn korean. I really don't get this opinion. Creating a backstory for players does not have to be done by the players themselves. People like Julyzerg have SO much more to backstory and content for NASL to work with when creating hype videos, providing highlight tapes, etc. Almost all of the NA and EU players with the exception of Idra and Grubby are pretty much blank slates. I don't get how you can watch the Korean's videos and come off with the feeling they are not right for NASL. IMO they are perfect for NASL, and to discriminate against them and not other places outside of NA seems very wrong. I will be extremely disappointed if Korean players are not given equal chances as other non-NA players. | ||
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rfoster
United States1005 Posts
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