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On March 16 2011 23:57 GrackGyver wrote:
There is something I really don't understand with some people here.
Are we supposed to think it's UNFAIR that people who work for a competition 10hrs a day win prizes over people who do so 4hrs a day? Or that people who give up other venues to put all their energy into progaming should be invited over people who give it as much as most would a hobby?
The answer is going to be "no, but we want to encourage an environment where people who play 4hrs can start playing 10 if they want to do so". Great, and you're going to do that by restricting korean access to leagues and make a statement that you are ok with semi-amateurs competing for 100k prizes? But why bother to play more than westerners do if you have a league with that kind of prize money that's actively sheltering you from really high level play? I really don't see how this is going to work out for the "protectionists" here.
Its not "unfair" that these people do better, its just a matter of what your goals are. Now, I don't know exactly how I feel on this topic, as I hear more arguments my attitude shits slightly, but the argument of fostering an environment of competition to further e-sports is valid. It is a valid fear that if non-Koreans keep getting beat down by Koreans that the development of greater skill will be stunted (not saying its definite, just a fear). Lets not forget, the reason that Korean progamers practice so hard is because of the potential prize money. Its not because of their salaries, which I'm sure does not amount to that much save for the tip top players.
On March 17 2011 01:09 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 00:43 hifriend wrote:
Pro teams might be financed primarily by sponsorships but a team that doesn't win things obviously isn't going to be sustainable.. No player, team manager or sponsor would want to put time money and effort into a team that isn't going to win tournaments. I'm afraid some people have to not win. If what you are saying is true then the entire scene is completely unsustainable. However its probably not true, not every BW team won proleague and only a small minority have ever won a Starleague.
Thats true, but what if a Korean team never won proleague or starleague? Lets imagine that foreigners won the first three pro-leagues. Lets imagine they didn't just win it, but they swept it, taking the entire round of 4. How likely is it that Korean teams are going to receive substantial sponsorships? The teams that have never won any leagues I'm sure have come close a few times. People want to root for underdogs, but if it seems like the underdog doesn't have even a chance of winning (and it only needs to seem like that, not actually be the case) then the scene will falter.
Coming back to the NASL, its not so unbelievable that this could happen. As its been mentioned before, IEM was a Korean bitch-slap to the foreign SC2 scene.
These are all speculations and conjecture but I think they shouldn't be outright dismissed.
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I am personally hoping that the NASL will become a sort of Foreigner SL. I have basically stopped watching GSL because there are so many korean players I know absolutely nothing about. Watching interviews with them hardly helps, it's mostly "I will try to work harder, etc...". Of course there is the odd exception, like Cella.
I agree with the OP that this NASL should have a huge entertainment factor, which is why I think NASL should only invite korean players that have actively tried to become a part of our community (like Cella, he's awesome!). Having a few outspoken guys play will have a much greater effect on our communities than having a couple uber gosu players, who just roflstomp to the top but leave no real impression as individual players.
TL;DR: I think trying to make NASL into a second GSL will be a huge fail. Make it an event for the foreign community and outspoken koreans.
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I think an ideal situation would be to have one or two top level Koreans, as well as one or two lower level Koreans. It's not a bad thing if a Korean wins, but if it's completely dominated by Koreans it would not bode very well for the NA SC2 scene.
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To be the best, compete against the best. Look how it turned out for Julyzerg in his Ro32.
Foreigner vs. Korean is much better than some Top200 NA scrubs playing each other. Skill difference is too big between ladder heroes and pro players...
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If you are an unknown or an up and coming play in one of the hundreds of other mid-level tournaments to build your name and your skill. I truly only want to see the best of the best players in a tournament that is marketed to be the best of the best tournaments.
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United States10654 Posts
On March 17 2011 02:24 warshop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 02:19 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 02:14 underdawg wrote:On March 17 2011 02:10 Pokebunny wrote:
1. I'm not trying to convince anyone that my viewpoint is best. I'm just defending it as a valid opinion.
2. Even if I knew 100% I would never be in the league, I'd still rather see few/no koreans (with the few being people like Cella). I'm not gonna get in as is.
I don't see how you can say my logic is backwards. I'm saying I want to watch an entertaining league, if the tournament is primarily korean, I won't watch much. I'm not saying this should be the majority opinion, just trying to defend my opinion as reasonable. if you are just saying you want to see players you are already familiar with, then that's totally understandable. if you'd rather see random unknown NA player than random unknown KOR player though, then that's weird. why is that? why are units controlled by white hands more entertaining than the same units controlled by yellow hands? You speak as if I don't know the majority of unknown NA players, if not all NA players that made applications. I'm pretty sure I do. It seems to me you find the NASL more interesting with players you know (NA players), which is completely legitimate seeing how you are competing in the NA scene. Although, the vast majority of fans who will be watching the NASL might not know the players on a personal level, which is why, to us (watching the GSL), it is more interesting seeing a clash of both our favorite NA/EU players and Korean players. It is a shame, that you, as a spectator, stopped watching GSL. Anyhow, I think Rekrul/Jinro summed it up pretty well.
I agree that Rekrul expressed the position well and I also agree that many people would rather see koreans. Thank you for a sensible post disagreeing with me :>
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How the hell does koreans coming here and smashing foreigners, assuming that would be the result if koreans were allowed with no limit, limit the growth of foreign skill?
Has anyone that is making this claim ever played some kind of sport or competitive activity? By limiting the competition you limit the potential growth. This is common fact. Japan offered ridiculous salaries to many top baseball players in America to come to Japan and play. Why? Because they wanted the best players there. They understand that if they come there, their players will naturally become better. This is because they are forced to if they want to win.
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On March 17 2011 02:26 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 02:22 underdawg wrote:On March 17 2011 02:19 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 02:14 underdawg wrote:On March 17 2011 02:10 Pokebunny wrote:
1. I'm not trying to convince anyone that my viewpoint is best. I'm just defending it as a valid opinion.
2. Even if I knew 100% I would never be in the league, I'd still rather see few/no koreans (with the few being people like Cella). I'm not gonna get in as is.
I don't see how you can say my logic is backwards. I'm saying I want to watch an entertaining league, if the tournament is primarily korean, I won't watch much. I'm not saying this should be the majority opinion, just trying to defend my opinion as reasonable. if you are just saying you want to see players you are already familiar with, then that's totally understandable. if you'd rather see random unknown NA player than random unknown KOR player though, then that's weird. why is that? why are units controlled by white hands more entertaining than the same units controlled by yellow hands? You speak as if I don't know the majority of unknown NA players, if not all NA players that made applications. I'm pretty sure I do. well..what if? - more similar to myself, easier to connect to as a fan/competitor - (probably) more interesting interviews, more interesting story to follow - he would compete in other na events rather than a korean who would play nasl + other korean tournaments, again allowing me to become familiar with a player part of my scene
As I pointed out, you already know them on a personal level. It's somewhat a biased opinion.
I also have to disagree to the more interesting interviews. It's very subjective and without proof.
I agree with the third point though.
Edit : Koreans are not that far ahead, they are, but not that much. I still think NA/EU can compete.
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From a purely spectator Pov, I am much less likely to watch NASL unless my personal favorite players are playing or if it's the semi finals / finals. Matches with koreans are so much more competitive because they have been training for many many hours and have insane skill to back it up.
Ex: Take the FxOpen, oGsThestc and oGsHero are not the main members of oGs, but managed to take down huge european names like select, lalush, moonglade. I would consider there guys code B players, I want to see how players like kiwikaki, TT1, fenix, strelok, dimage, morrow etc try to take these guys down. Whether it be practicing for 12 hours a day or coming up with some amazing build etc..
edit: imo you guys are grossly underestimating the NA/EU scene.
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8748 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [gsl up/down] +I think adelscott vs mvp will be close/interesting. People laughed at it when I first said it and now I think people would think twice about it having seen mvp publicly lose tvp's. Adelscott is good enough to beat mvp with the way mvp just played his up/down matches. If you believe that, then it's 100% a very interesting match to watch.
qxc vs genius would be more interesting if qxc was practicing full time. nightend vs boxer is interesting but it's just kind of in a weird way. it's only because boxer is boxer. no one thinks boxer will go deep so everyone just wants to know if he'll actually lose first round. ciara vs mc and nestea vs goody, and fruitdealer vs thorzain, not looking so close. there will be other non-koreans who will have close matches vs those koreans though. but still, these are opportunities for ciara goody and thorzain to instantly become mega stars. there will be a clash of styles. it will be interesting
TSL has a format where it's nearly impossible to have uninteresting matches. You've got players who have earned their spots fair and square against the toughest competition NA/EU have to offer, playing against an insanely tough field of invited players. Even the matches that don't look like they're going to be close are still going to be matches that everyone wants to witness. And there are few enough games per week that it'll just be natural for an SC2 fan to say "I'm going to watch every single TSL3 game."
NASL won't have that for their group stage. Too many matches that aren't elimination matches, too many players that don't make headlines playing against each other. They want to bring a high volume of content. But unfortunately it can't all be amazingly interesting. With a field of 50 players, it's likely that when the top 10 best players play against the bottom 10 worst players, the games won't be so great. And when bottom 10 worst players play each other, it might not look so great either (reminiscent of ro64 in GSL1 and GSL2). And with a lot of games not threatening elimination, there won't be a ton of drama. Someone will lose a match and you'll think "well, he's less likely to get through now..." or someone will brilliantly win a match and you'll think "well, he's still got a damn long way to go..." They're going to try to make every game interesting and I hope it works. And bottom line is I think having Koreans in the field would make things more interesting and it legitimizes the competition.
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TheSTC is actually pretty well known for being kind of a monster Terran.
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On March 17 2011 02:30 LesPhoques wrote:
To be the best, compete against the best. Look how it turned out for Julyzerg in his Ro32.
Foreigner vs. Korean is much better than some Top200 NA scrubs playing each other. Skill difference is too big between ladder heroes and pro players...
I feel like thats oversimplifying the situation. The goal isn't to create the best players, its to create a player base that is able to complete on a skill level with Koreans. Striving to become the best player is the prerogative of the individual player and is not completely relevant to the discussion.
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On March 17 2011 02:30 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 02:24 warshop wrote:On March 17 2011 02:19 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 02:14 underdawg wrote:On March 17 2011 02:10 Pokebunny wrote:
1. I'm not trying to convince anyone that my viewpoint is best. I'm just defending it as a valid opinion.
2. Even if I knew 100% I would never be in the league, I'd still rather see few/no koreans (with the few being people like Cella). I'm not gonna get in as is.
I don't see how you can say my logic is backwards. I'm saying I want to watch an entertaining league, if the tournament is primarily korean, I won't watch much. I'm not saying this should be the majority opinion, just trying to defend my opinion as reasonable. if you are just saying you want to see players you are already familiar with, then that's totally understandable. if you'd rather see random unknown NA player than random unknown KOR player though, then that's weird. why is that? why are units controlled by white hands more entertaining than the same units controlled by yellow hands? You speak as if I don't know the majority of unknown NA players, if not all NA players that made applications. I'm pretty sure I do. It seems to me you find the NASL more interesting with players you know (NA players), which is completely legitimate seeing how you are competing in the NA scene. Although, the vast majority of fans who will be watching the NASL might not know the players on a personal level, which is why, to us (watching the GSL), it is more interesting seeing a clash of both our favorite NA/EU players and Korean players. It is a shame, that you, as a spectator, stopped watching GSL. Anyhow, I think Rekrul/Jinro summed it up pretty well. I agree that Rekrul expressed the position well and I also agree that many people would rather see koreans. Thank you for a sensible post disagreeing with me :>
Not problem. We're all gentlemen here and every opinion is worth hearing out 
Hell, I think the reason why we're so much involved (fussed about) is because we care so much about this. We all want this to succeed.
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On March 17 2011 02:26 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 02:22 underdawg wrote:On March 17 2011 02:19 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 02:14 underdawg wrote:On March 17 2011 02:10 Pokebunny wrote:
1. I'm not trying to convince anyone that my viewpoint is best. I'm just defending it as a valid opinion.
2. Even if I knew 100% I would never be in the league, I'd still rather see few/no koreans (with the few being people like Cella). I'm not gonna get in as is.
I don't see how you can say my logic is backwards. I'm saying I want to watch an entertaining league, if the tournament is primarily korean, I won't watch much. I'm not saying this should be the majority opinion, just trying to defend my opinion as reasonable. if you are just saying you want to see players you are already familiar with, then that's totally understandable. if you'd rather see random unknown NA player than random unknown KOR player though, then that's weird. why is that? why are units controlled by white hands more entertaining than the same units controlled by yellow hands? You speak as if I don't know the majority of unknown NA players, if not all NA players that made applications. I'm pretty sure I do. well..what if? - more similar to myself, easier to connect to as a fan/competitor - (probably) more interesting interviews, more interesting story to follow - he would compete in other na events rather than a korean who would play nasl + other korean tournaments, again allowing me to become familiar with a player part of my scene
I hope you realize that if the NASL and MLG match up their schedules. Just as the Finals are finishing for the NASL in LA the Koreans ALREADY in the US can then take the trip to the nearest MLG. Thus they can participate in more NA events. Of course that would be MLG's nightmare but that's a completely different discussion.
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On March 17 2011 02:36 Bijan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 02:30 LesPhoques wrote:
To be the best, compete against the best. Look how it turned out for Julyzerg in his Ro32.
Foreigner vs. Korean is much better than some Top200 NA scrubs playing each other. Skill difference is too big between ladder heroes and pro players...
I feel like thats oversimplifying the situation. The goal isn't to create the best players, its to create a player base that is able to complete on a skill level with Koreans. Striving to become the best player is the prerogative of the individual player and is not completely relevant to the discussion.
Once again this is ridiculous. Show me a single time in any sport where this kind of mentality has been successful. Like I mentioned earlier, look at how Japan became so successful at baseball. They paid any MLB player who wanted to, to come play in Japan. They didn't create their own little league and play amongst themselves hoping to someday be able to take down the American giants.
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And bottom line is I think having Koreans in the field would make things more interesting.
There goes Tyler's support for Pokebunny's argument...
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On March 17 2011 02:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:+ Show Spoiler [gsl up/down] +I think adelscott vs mvp will be close/interesting. People laughed at it when I first said it and now I think people would think twice about it having seen mvp publicly lose tvp's. Adelscott is good enough to beat mvp with the way mvp just played his up/down matches. If you believe that, then it's 100% a very interesting match to watch. qxc vs genius would be more interesting if qxc was practicing full time. nightend vs boxer is interesting but it's just kind of in a weird way. it's only because boxer is boxer. no one thinks boxer will go deep so everyone just wants to know if he'll actually lose first round. ciara vs mc and nestea vs goody, and fruitdealer vs thorzain, not looking so close. there will be other non-koreans who will have close matches vs those koreans though. but still, these are opportunities for ciara goody and thorzain to instantly become mega stars. there will be a clash of styles. it will be interesting TSL has a format where it's nearly impossible to have uninteresting matches. You've got players who have earned their spots fair and square against the toughest competition NA/EU have to offer, playing against an insanely tough field of invited players. Even the matches that don't look like they're going to be close are still going to be matches that everyone wants to witness. And there are few enough games per week that it'll just be natural for an SC2 fan to say "I'm going to watch every single TSL3 game." NASL won't have that for their group stage. Too many matches that aren't elimination matches, too many players that don't make headlines playing against each other. They want to bring a high volume of content. But unfortunately it can't all be amazingly interesting. With a field of 50 players, it's likely that when the top 10 best players play against the bottom 10 worst players, the games won't be so great. And when bottom 10 worst players play each other, it might not look so great either (reminiscent of ro64 in GSL1 and GSL2). And with a lot of games not threatening elimination, there won't be a ton of drama. Someone will lose a match and you'll think "well, he's less likely to get through now..." or someone will brilliantly win a match and you'll think "well, he's still got a damn long way to go..." They're going to try to make every game interesting and I hope it works. And bottom line is I think having Koreans in the field would make things more interesting and it legitimizes the competition.
I get what you're saying here, but your final conclusion doesn't really match the rest. Having Koreans legitimizes the tournament as being one of high skill, but based on the picture you just painted, widening the skill gap will only make for less interesting games. Unless I misunderstood your point.
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On March 17 2011 02:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
And bottom line is I think having Koreans in the field would make things more interesting and it legitimizes the competition.
Legitimizes the competition and levitates the competition (in term of challenge). I believe that by making the competition as hard as it gets will only make us (the NA scene) stronger on the long term.
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8748 Posts
On March 17 2011 02:40 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +And bottom line is I think having Koreans in the field would make things more interesting. There goes Tyler's support for Pokebunny's argument...
Yeah well that's why i posted to clarify. But it's not like Pokebunny was doing anything wrong with his interpretation of my interview. I didn't clarify in my interview that I thought the ro32 would be more interesting as a whole with Koreans in it than without Koreans. It's having Koreans in it that has raised the skill level of the event such that seeing morrow vs jinro and naniwa vs ret in ro32 is not an outrage. Take the Koreans out of this ro32 and it's definitely less interesting. Put the Koreans in the ro32 and it becomes interesting. That doesn't automatically mean I find the Koreans' matches the most interesting. But they're still interesting!
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On March 17 2011 02:39 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 02:36 Bijan wrote:On March 17 2011 02:30 LesPhoques wrote:
To be the best, compete against the best. Look how it turned out for Julyzerg in his Ro32.
Foreigner vs. Korean is much better than some Top200 NA scrubs playing each other. Skill difference is too big between ladder heroes and pro players...
I feel like thats oversimplifying the situation. The goal isn't to create the best players, its to create a player base that is able to complete on a skill level with Koreans. Striving to become the best player is the prerogative of the individual player and is not completely relevant to the discussion. Once again this is ridiculous. Show me a single time in any sport where this kind of mentality has been successful. Like I mentioned earlier, look at how Japan became so successful at baseball. They paid any MLB player who wanted to, to come play in Japan. They didn't create their own little league and play amongst themselves hoping to someday be able to take down the American giants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Professional_Baseball
Almost all the biggest Japanese players started there. With a little bit of research I present to you...
http://japanesebaseball.com/faq/gaijin.jsp
What are the rules governing foreign players on rosters?
The rules governing how many foreigners are allowed on active rosters has varied over time. While the fairness of the rules is a hot topic for debate (on numerous threads), what I want to present to you here is the rules governing roster allowances.
What is the limit on foreign players?
Currently there is no limit to the number an organization can sign. However, only 4 foreign players are allowed on the 25-man game roster, with a maximum of 3 position players or 3 pitchers. There can not be 4 position players or 4 pitchers at one time. 3 position players and 1 pitcher, 1 position player and 3 pitchers, or 2 of each are all possible.
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EPT
