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8748 Posts
On March 17 2011 02:41 Bijan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 02:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:+ Show Spoiler [gsl up/down] +I think adelscott vs mvp will be close/interesting. People laughed at it when I first said it and now I think people would think twice about it having seen mvp publicly lose tvp's. Adelscott is good enough to beat mvp with the way mvp just played his up/down matches. If you believe that, then it's 100% a very interesting match to watch. qxc vs genius would be more interesting if qxc was practicing full time. nightend vs boxer is interesting but it's just kind of in a weird way. it's only because boxer is boxer. no one thinks boxer will go deep so everyone just wants to know if he'll actually lose first round. ciara vs mc and nestea vs goody, and fruitdealer vs thorzain, not looking so close. there will be other non-koreans who will have close matches vs those koreans though. but still, these are opportunities for ciara goody and thorzain to instantly become mega stars. there will be a clash of styles. it will be interesting TSL has a format where it's nearly impossible to have uninteresting matches. You've got players who have earned their spots fair and square against the toughest competition NA/EU have to offer, playing against an insanely tough field of invited players. Even the matches that don't look like they're going to be close are still going to be matches that everyone wants to witness. And there are few enough games per week that it'll just be natural for an SC2 fan to say "I'm going to watch every single TSL3 game." NASL won't have that for their group stage. Too many matches that aren't elimination matches, too many players that don't make headlines playing against each other. They want to bring a high volume of content. But unfortunately it can't all be amazingly interesting. With a field of 50 players, it's likely that when the top 10 best players play against the bottom 10 worst players, the games won't be so great. And when bottom 10 worst players play each other, it might not look so great either (reminiscent of ro64 in GSL1 and GSL2). And with a lot of games not threatening elimination, there won't be a ton of drama. Someone will lose a match and you'll think "well, he's less likely to get through now..." or someone will brilliantly win a match and you'll think "well, he's still got a damn long way to go..." They're going to try to make every game interesting and I hope it works. And bottom line is I think having Koreans in the field would make things more interesting and it legitimizes the competition. I get what you're saying here, but your final conclusion doesn't really match the rest. Having Koreans legitimizes the tournament as being one of high skill, but based on the picture you just painted, widening the skill gap will only make for less interesting games. Unless I misunderstood your point.
I don't think it widens the skill gap. It just moves the range of skill that's being covered. It's more interesting to watch players 1-50 in a competition than 26-75. Hell, even if the skill gap between #1 and #50 is bigger than the gap between #26 and #75, I still think it's worth it. If it's going to be one-sided either way, I'd rather watch the best player in the world stomp someone than the 26th best player in the world.
To put it more simply, there's two different variables we're messing with here: competition format and player pool. Having the best players in the world is the best you can do for the player pool. I can imagine some situations where this isn't true, but they're rare and I don't think this is one of them. The format is set. I was discussing it in order to say that if there are indeed a lot of uninteresting games during the group stage of NASL, then I blame the format more than the player pool. Honestly I think they're being ambitious with this format -- ambitious that they can make everyone interested in every single one of these games. They're gonna work their asses off to make it happen but it's gonna be the format they're working against more than the player pool.
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If we assume that Korean players are that much better than NA + EU players, then do not invite them, that would be rediculous. Why would we close off a particular part of the world that will do the most to improve our players' motivation and skill and automatically lower the skill level of the tourney as a whole.
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I guess the real question here is what NASL is trying to accomplish:
Want to help push NA players to the next level in terms of skill?
-- Then we need to allow the BEST players from any country into the league to compete. Right now, a lot of them live in Korea.
Want to help promote NA players and build some sort of public support for SC2 as an E-sport in the US?
-- Then we might want to limit the number non-NA players to prevent soccer syndrome. (Look at the World Cup. US soccer has such a small following because, no matter how entertaining the MLS games are, we usually perform poorly on a world stage compared to countries were soccer is HUGE).
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United States10654 Posts
On March 17 2011 02:40 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +And bottom line is I think having Koreans in the field would make things more interesting. There goes Tyler's support for Pokebunny's argument...
It was never an argument, just my opinion. He still did somewhat agree in a public interview. I see both sides and think it would be fine with just a few koreans, just saying that personally I don't see the need for them.
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personally I don't see the need for them.
Still? After all the arguments that the inclusion of Koreans adds more interest, skill, and competition: all things that large tournaments strive to maintain?
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On March 17 2011 02:26 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 02:22 underdawg wrote:On March 17 2011 02:19 Pokebunny wrote:On March 17 2011 02:14 underdawg wrote:On March 17 2011 02:10 Pokebunny wrote:
1. I'm not trying to convince anyone that my viewpoint is best. I'm just defending it as a valid opinion.
2. Even if I knew 100% I would never be in the league, I'd still rather see few/no koreans (with the few being people like Cella). I'm not gonna get in as is.
I don't see how you can say my logic is backwards. I'm saying I want to watch an entertaining league, if the tournament is primarily korean, I won't watch much. I'm not saying this should be the majority opinion, just trying to defend my opinion as reasonable. if you are just saying you want to see players you are already familiar with, then that's totally understandable. if you'd rather see random unknown NA player than random unknown KOR player though, then that's weird. why is that? why are units controlled by white hands more entertaining than the same units controlled by yellow hands? You speak as if I don't know the majority of unknown NA players, if not all NA players that made applications. I'm pretty sure I do. well..what if? - more similar to myself, easier to connect to as a fan/competitor - (probably) more interesting interviews, more interesting story to follow - he would compete in other na events rather than a korean who would play nasl + other korean tournaments, again allowing me to become familiar with a player part of my scene
Why do people keep mentioning story? What stories developed in the foreign tournaments so far exactly? If anything Koreans have had more interesting rivalries and back-stories, some of them go back way into the past like NaDa v July. Btw IdrA quitting without a gg or calling someone bad is not a story.
On March 17 2011 02:27 Bijan wrote:
Thats true, but what if a Korean team never won proleague or starleague? Lets imagine that foreigners won the first three pro-leagues. Lets imagine they didn't just win it, but they swept it, taking the entire round of 4. How likely is it that Korean teams are going to receive substantial sponsorships? The teams that have never won any leagues I'm sure have come close a few times. People want to root for underdogs, but if it seems like the underdog doesn't have even a chance of winning (and it only needs to seem like that, not actually be the case) then the scene will falter.
Coming back to the NASL, its not so unbelievable that this could happen. As its been mentioned before, IEM was a Korean bitch-slap to the foreign SC2 scene.
These are all speculations and conjecture but I think they shouldn't be outright dismissed.
The Koreans would still receive sponsorships, i'm not sure what your point is. Just taking part is exposure and advertisement for the sponsors. If a sponsor expected a player to win prizes or they would pull out that it would be entirely unreasonable. Sure competing and doing well in tournaments might get you a better sponsor in the long run but if there's not even the best competition in the NASL then it won't be as prestigious anyway and won't help.
On March 17 2011 02:55 MooseyFate wrote:
-- Then we might want to limit the number non-NA players to prevent soccer syndrome. (Look at the World Cup. US soccer has such a small following because, no matter how entertaining the MLS games are, we usually perform poorly on a world stage compared to countries were soccer is HUGE).
Can i just say, offtopic, the US doesn't do that poorly in football at all. In the WC they were in final 16 and only just went out, not bad at all for a country where it's not a big sport. Even if the US won a World Cup i bet everyone would forget about it soon enough. It reminds me when England won the Rugby WC, it was hyped up for a while and people who never watched it before talked about it, then after a while it went back to usual.
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United States10654 Posts
On March 17 2011 02:53 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 02:41 Bijan wrote:On March 17 2011 02:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:+ Show Spoiler [gsl up/down] +I think adelscott vs mvp will be close/interesting. People laughed at it when I first said it and now I think people would think twice about it having seen mvp publicly lose tvp's. Adelscott is good enough to beat mvp with the way mvp just played his up/down matches. If you believe that, then it's 100% a very interesting match to watch. qxc vs genius would be more interesting if qxc was practicing full time. nightend vs boxer is interesting but it's just kind of in a weird way. it's only because boxer is boxer. no one thinks boxer will go deep so everyone just wants to know if he'll actually lose first round. ciara vs mc and nestea vs goody, and fruitdealer vs thorzain, not looking so close. there will be other non-koreans who will have close matches vs those koreans though. but still, these are opportunities for ciara goody and thorzain to instantly become mega stars. there will be a clash of styles. it will be interesting TSL has a format where it's nearly impossible to have uninteresting matches. You've got players who have earned their spots fair and square against the toughest competition NA/EU have to offer, playing against an insanely tough field of invited players. Even the matches that don't look like they're going to be close are still going to be matches that everyone wants to witness. And there are few enough games per week that it'll just be natural for an SC2 fan to say "I'm going to watch every single TSL3 game." NASL won't have that for their group stage. Too many matches that aren't elimination matches, too many players that don't make headlines playing against each other. They want to bring a high volume of content. But unfortunately it can't all be amazingly interesting. With a field of 50 players, it's likely that when the top 10 best players play against the bottom 10 worst players, the games won't be so great. And when bottom 10 worst players play each other, it might not look so great either (reminiscent of ro64 in GSL1 and GSL2). And with a lot of games not threatening elimination, there won't be a ton of drama. Someone will lose a match and you'll think "well, he's less likely to get through now..." or someone will brilliantly win a match and you'll think "well, he's still got a damn long way to go..." They're going to try to make every game interesting and I hope it works. And bottom line is I think having Koreans in the field would make things more interesting and it legitimizes the competition. I get what you're saying here, but your final conclusion doesn't really match the rest. Having Koreans legitimizes the tournament as being one of high skill, but based on the picture you just painted, widening the skill gap will only make for less interesting games. Unless I misunderstood your point. I don't think it widens the skill gap. It just moves the range of skill that's being covered. It's more interesting to watch players 1-50 in a competition than 26-75. Hell, even if the skill gap between #1 and #50 is bigger than the gap between #26 and #75, I still think it's worth it. If it's going to be one-sided either way, I'd rather watch the best player in the world stomp someone than the 26th best player in the world. To put it more simply, there's two different variables we're messing with here: competition format and player pool. Having the best players in the world is the best you can do for the player pool. I can imagine some situations where this isn't true, but they're rare and I don't think this is one of them. The format is set. I was discussing it in order to say that if there are indeed a lot of uninteresting games during the group stage of NASL, then I blame the format more than the player pool. Honestly I think they're being ambitious with this format -- ambitious that they can make everyone interested in every single one of these games. They're gonna work their asses off to make it happen but it's gonna be the format they're working against more than the player pool.
I kinda like the idea of a regular season and then playoffs, similar to normal sports. It gives you the chance to follow your favorite players before watching the best compete in the playoffs. Nobody would know anything about the cellar teams in sports by watching them play one round every season, but following them for a while can still be interesting.
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On March 17 2011 03:04 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 02:53 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 17 2011 02:41 Bijan wrote:On March 17 2011 02:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:+ Show Spoiler [gsl up/down] +I think adelscott vs mvp will be close/interesting. People laughed at it when I first said it and now I think people would think twice about it having seen mvp publicly lose tvp's. Adelscott is good enough to beat mvp with the way mvp just played his up/down matches. If you believe that, then it's 100% a very interesting match to watch. qxc vs genius would be more interesting if qxc was practicing full time. nightend vs boxer is interesting but it's just kind of in a weird way. it's only because boxer is boxer. no one thinks boxer will go deep so everyone just wants to know if he'll actually lose first round. ciara vs mc and nestea vs goody, and fruitdealer vs thorzain, not looking so close. there will be other non-koreans who will have close matches vs those koreans though. but still, these are opportunities for ciara goody and thorzain to instantly become mega stars. there will be a clash of styles. it will be interesting TSL has a format where it's nearly impossible to have uninteresting matches. You've got players who have earned their spots fair and square against the toughest competition NA/EU have to offer, playing against an insanely tough field of invited players. Even the matches that don't look like they're going to be close are still going to be matches that everyone wants to witness. And there are few enough games per week that it'll just be natural for an SC2 fan to say "I'm going to watch every single TSL3 game." NASL won't have that for their group stage. Too many matches that aren't elimination matches, too many players that don't make headlines playing against each other. They want to bring a high volume of content. But unfortunately it can't all be amazingly interesting. With a field of 50 players, it's likely that when the top 10 best players play against the bottom 10 worst players, the games won't be so great. And when bottom 10 worst players play each other, it might not look so great either (reminiscent of ro64 in GSL1 and GSL2). And with a lot of games not threatening elimination, there won't be a ton of drama. Someone will lose a match and you'll think "well, he's less likely to get through now..." or someone will brilliantly win a match and you'll think "well, he's still got a damn long way to go..." They're going to try to make every game interesting and I hope it works. And bottom line is I think having Koreans in the field would make things more interesting and it legitimizes the competition. I get what you're saying here, but your final conclusion doesn't really match the rest. Having Koreans legitimizes the tournament as being one of high skill, but based on the picture you just painted, widening the skill gap will only make for less interesting games. Unless I misunderstood your point. I don't think it widens the skill gap. It just moves the range of skill that's being covered. It's more interesting to watch players 1-50 in a competition than 26-75. Hell, even if the skill gap between #1 and #50 is bigger than the gap between #26 and #75, I still think it's worth it. If it's going to be one-sided either way, I'd rather watch the best player in the world stomp someone than the 26th best player in the world. To put it more simply, there's two different variables we're messing with here: competition format and player pool. Having the best players in the world is the best you can do for the player pool. I can imagine some situations where this isn't true, but they're rare and I don't think this is one of them. The format is set. I was discussing it in order to say that if there are indeed a lot of uninteresting games during the group stage of NASL, then I blame the format more than the player pool. Honestly I think they're being ambitious with this format -- ambitious that they can make everyone interested in every single one of these games. They're gonna work their asses off to make it happen but it's gonna be the format they're working against more than the player pool. I kinda like the idea of a regular season and then playoffs, similar to normal sports. It gives you the chance to follow your favorite players before watching the best compete in the playoffs. Nobody would know anything about the cellar teams in sports by watching them play one round every season, but following them for a while can still be interesting.
Well in that sense I agree with Tyler. I certainly won't be watching most of the games. Its just too much. I'll follow my guys and then I'll start watching consistently at some reasonable point. I would rather it be like the GSL at least in the sense where I want to see almost every game because the outcome might directly effect other games that I have more of an interest in. For the NASL I am going to have to heavily rely on TL's awesome polling system. Hasn't steered me wrong yet.
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i'd rather eventually see something like how tennis works. a global "league" with various tournaments offering varying amounts of points and prize money, and a few big events that absolutely everyone will try to play. there'd be no real team aspect though which would kinda suck.
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I think if people are actually concerned about the growth of the foreign scene on the long term, there is really no choice but to invite a bunch of Koreans because if you isolate the communities, or arbitrarily fill the Korean spots with sort of tier 2 level Koreans, all you do is coddle the foreigners. If there isn't motivation to be better than the very best of the world then its rather inevitable that foreign skill will continue to lag further and further behind Koreans.
From a spectator point of view, at least for me, I only enjoy watching good play. The drama and stories are nice, but too be honest, I only care about the story if its centered around a player I respect. Given the current state of things, that means I only really care about Koreans and a handful of foreign players. The only foreigner games I watch anymore are those involving names like White-Ra, Idra, Morrow, and the foreigners in Korea. The rest of the foreign scene is painful for me to watch because I can't help think as I watch it about just how much better the game could be.
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On March 17 2011 03:02 infinity2k9 wrote:
The Koreans would still receive sponsorships, i'm not sure what your point is. Just taking part is exposure and advertisement for the sponsors. If a sponsor expected a player to win prizes or they would pull out that it would be entirely unreasonable. Sure competing and doing well in tournaments might get you a better sponsor in the long run but if there's not even the best competition in the NASL then it won't be as prestigious anyway and won't help.
I'm not saying that they have to win, but they have to do reasonably well right? If you see Koreans sweeping the top spots of the league consistently, placing 1-3, wouldn't that negatively impact sponsorships for foreign teams?
I'm legitimately asking, thats not rhetorical. I don't know exactly what I'm talking about, believe it or not with 70 some-odd posts.
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On March 17 2011 02:47 Bijan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 02:39 holynorth wrote:On March 17 2011 02:36 Bijan wrote:On March 17 2011 02:30 LesPhoques wrote:
To be the best, compete against the best. Look how it turned out for Julyzerg in his Ro32.
Foreigner vs. Korean is much better than some Top200 NA scrubs playing each other. Skill difference is too big between ladder heroes and pro players...
I feel like thats oversimplifying the situation. The goal isn't to create the best players, its to create a player base that is able to complete on a skill level with Koreans. Striving to become the best player is the prerogative of the individual player and is not completely relevant to the discussion. Once again this is ridiculous. Show me a single time in any sport where this kind of mentality has been successful. Like I mentioned earlier, look at how Japan became so successful at baseball. They paid any MLB player who wanted to, to come play in Japan. They didn't create their own little league and play amongst themselves hoping to someday be able to take down the American giants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Professional_BaseballAlmost all the biggest Japanese players started there. With a little bit of research I present to you... http://japanesebaseball.com/faq/gaijin.jspShow nested quote +What are the rules governing foreign players on rosters?
The rules governing how many foreigners are allowed on active rosters has varied over time. While the fairness of the rules is a hot topic for debate (on numerous threads), what I want to present to you here is the rules governing roster allowances.
What is the limit on foreign players?
Currently there is no limit to the number an organization can sign. However, only 4 foreign players are allowed on the 25-man game roster, with a maximum of 3 position players or 3 pitchers. There can not be 4 position players or 4 pitchers at one time. 3 position players and 1 pitcher, 1 position player and 3 pitchers, or 2 of each are all possible.
You obviously had no prior knowledge and researched it just recently for yourself so I will let this slide, but you cut off nearly fifty years of the history of baseball in Japan. You also didn't continue researching where you would had realized the roster limit on Americans is to prevent a money wins games situation where whichever team can afford more Americans wins. This limit is nothing similar to the NASL situation.
You can also keep reading, try the main wiki page for Japanese Baseball, where they paid American teams to come play, destroy, them each year.
They key part here is that Japan paid, and still pays, American teams to come to Japan and completely destroy their teams. What has this done? Well now it looks like the top Japan teams will be able to beat the top American teams. This was all done through playing against the best.
Had they stayed to themselves and not done this, they would still be far behind American teams. Ever heard of that saying where you play to the level of your competition?
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8748 Posts
On March 17 2011 02:59 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 02:40 nvs. wrote:And bottom line is I think having Koreans in the field would make things more interesting. There goes Tyler's support for Pokebunny's argument... It was never an argument, just my opinion. He still did somewhat agree in a public interview. I see both sides and think it would be fine with just a few koreans, just saying that personally I don't see the need for them.
With the high volume of games that they're gonna be putting out, wanting us to tune in 5 days a week I think, it's the hardcore fans that they need. Or they're gonna make hardcore fans out of casual fans. Either way, it'll end up being hardcore fans making up the core of their regular audience and such fans like watching the Koreans, and they hold skill level in high regard. And the only other competition that has done something like NASL is going to do is the GSL. So every SC2 fan who is likely to follow a league that has a high volume of games, is run over a long period of time, and has a free stream and a premium account for high quality stream and vods, is currently a fan of Korean players and the GSL.
So we need em for the fans.
There are really only 2 things Americans have ever needed to be as good of players as Koreans. #1 they need to be able to practice with the best players. When Koreans isolate themselves and get higher skill level, they're always one step ahead. As long as the KR ladder remains strong, Americans have this opportunity (though Blizzard needs to make it easier for an American to connect to the KR server and get latency like in SC:BW). #2 Americans need incentive to practice a lot. The NASL is that incentive. OSL/MSL/GSL aren't and never were. Having to move to Seoul is too much of a trade off for most people. NASL's existence is a huge fucking boon to American esports, even if it's initially full of Koreans. In fact, denying foreigners would stagnate us. It would remove incentive to become as good as foreigners. If I could win $100k/year and get tons of exposure in America just by being the best American, I wouldn't care that Koreans are better than me. That'd be really bad!
So we need em for the players.
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The best should be invited to the NASL. Even if its Koreans mixed in there.
Why do people go to Korea/play on Korean servers? To practice against the best players. Whoever goes to Korea usually comes back a much better player.
Now what's the problem with bringing them here? I see no difference. It's pretty horrible to be afraid of Koreans dominating... perhaps one Korean may win the first or second season. Or who knows how many, but if so... they earned it. Eventually, the skill level will level somewhat.
I think that'll motivate more NA/Europeans to improve. There are already amazing non korean players out there.
Anyway, this is a world sport after all. The best thing for E-sports IMO is to let anyone participate. May the best man win!
Edit: Also, I agree with the guy below me. Qualifiers should be how its done... otherwise - Invite the best based on record/fame... kind of like TSL... but I'd rather it be qualifiers tbh....
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I think the biggest problem with it all is that NASL is invite based. It should have qualifiers like every other top tourney and thus the best players can qualify. Right now it feels more like North American Idol League.
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On March 17 2011 03:16 Bijan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 03:02 infinity2k9 wrote:
The Koreans would still receive sponsorships, i'm not sure what your point is. Just taking part is exposure and advertisement for the sponsors. If a sponsor expected a player to win prizes or they would pull out that it would be entirely unreasonable. Sure competing and doing well in tournaments might get you a better sponsor in the long run but if there's not even the best competition in the NASL then it won't be as prestigious anyway and won't help.
I'm not saying that they have to win, but they have to do reasonably well right? If you see Koreans sweeping the top spots of the league consistently, placing 1-3, wouldn't that negatively impact sponsorships for foreign teams? I'm legitimately asking, thats not rhetorical. I don't know exactly what I'm talking about, believe it or not with 70 some-odd posts.
Hard to say, we'd need to know what the sponsors actually think i guess. Without at least some top level Koreans though it will be seen as a B-league compared to the GSL, which can't be good for its appeal to big international sponsors either. I think smaller sponsors would be fine with it regardless as long as their name is getting out there, a small sponsor being something like The Little App Factory.
I think Tyler's summed it up well. If you go the route of excluding in any way then you risk alienating the core fanbase, and without that it's irrelevant how marketable American players might be cause it will never grow. The point about how many games this involves is a good one, it means that realistically i cannot see many casual fans following it all. It's going to be the same kind of audience that watches GSL already. The guys running the tournament will be sensible enough to pick the right people i'm sure. Then if Koreans happen to manage to flood the tournament later as players drop out and come back in, then it just means foreigners are not up to the standard.
Theres no excuses with SC2 compared to BW, people definitely can compete - with a lot of effort. But who expects to be the best and compete for $100,000 a month without serious effort? :p
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On March 17 2011 03:18 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 02:47 Bijan wrote:On March 17 2011 02:39 holynorth wrote:On March 17 2011 02:36 Bijan wrote:On March 17 2011 02:30 LesPhoques wrote:
To be the best, compete against the best. Look how it turned out for Julyzerg in his Ro32.
Foreigner vs. Korean is much better than some Top200 NA scrubs playing each other. Skill difference is too big between ladder heroes and pro players...
I feel like thats oversimplifying the situation. The goal isn't to create the best players, its to create a player base that is able to complete on a skill level with Koreans. Striving to become the best player is the prerogative of the individual player and is not completely relevant to the discussion. Once again this is ridiculous. Show me a single time in any sport where this kind of mentality has been successful. Like I mentioned earlier, look at how Japan became so successful at baseball. They paid any MLB player who wanted to, to come play in Japan. They didn't create their own little league and play amongst themselves hoping to someday be able to take down the American giants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Professional_BaseballAlmost all the biggest Japanese players started there. With a little bit of research I present to you... http://japanesebaseball.com/faq/gaijin.jspWhat are the rules governing foreign players on rosters?
The rules governing how many foreigners are allowed on active rosters has varied over time. While the fairness of the rules is a hot topic for debate (on numerous threads), what I want to present to you here is the rules governing roster allowances.
What is the limit on foreign players?
Currently there is no limit to the number an organization can sign. However, only 4 foreign players are allowed on the 25-man game roster, with a maximum of 3 position players or 3 pitchers. There can not be 4 position players or 4 pitchers at one time. 3 position players and 1 pitcher, 1 position player and 3 pitchers, or 2 of each are all possible. You obviously had no prior knowledge and researched it just recently for yourself so I will let this slide, but you cut off nearly fifty years of the history of baseball in Japan. You also didn't continue researching where you would had realized the roster limit on Americans is to prevent a money wins games situation where whichever team can afford more Americans wins. This limit is nothing similar to the NASL situation. You can also keep reading, try the main wiki page for Japanese Baseball, where they paid American teams to come play, destroy, them each year. They key part here is that Japan paid, and still pays, American teams to come to Japan and completely destroy their teams. What has this done? Well now it looks like the top Japan teams will be able to beat the top American teams. This was all done through playing against the best.
I PMed you but I might as well make it public. I humbly concede to your point. I'm starting to lean more towards the other side of the argument now, especially after realizing that all my favorite players are Korean anyhow.
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Hey Pokebunny! Let's see you try to learn Korean, make an application video in Korean, and give interesting interviews in Korean.
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Limiting the number of foreigners is not how we roll in America. MLB does not limit the number of Hispanic players. NHL does not limit Canadians and Europeans.
NASL should take the best players.
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On March 17 2011 03:23 Bijan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 03:18 holynorth wrote:On March 17 2011 02:47 Bijan wrote:On March 17 2011 02:39 holynorth wrote:On March 17 2011 02:36 Bijan wrote:On March 17 2011 02:30 LesPhoques wrote:
To be the best, compete against the best. Look how it turned out for Julyzerg in his Ro32.
Foreigner vs. Korean is much better than some Top200 NA scrubs playing each other. Skill difference is too big between ladder heroes and pro players...
I feel like thats oversimplifying the situation. The goal isn't to create the best players, its to create a player base that is able to complete on a skill level with Koreans. Striving to become the best player is the prerogative of the individual player and is not completely relevant to the discussion. Once again this is ridiculous. Show me a single time in any sport where this kind of mentality has been successful. Like I mentioned earlier, look at how Japan became so successful at baseball. They paid any MLB player who wanted to, to come play in Japan. They didn't create their own little league and play amongst themselves hoping to someday be able to take down the American giants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Professional_BaseballAlmost all the biggest Japanese players started there. With a little bit of research I present to you... http://japanesebaseball.com/faq/gaijin.jspWhat are the rules governing foreign players on rosters?
The rules governing how many foreigners are allowed on active rosters has varied over time. While the fairness of the rules is a hot topic for debate (on numerous threads), what I want to present to you here is the rules governing roster allowances.
What is the limit on foreign players?
Currently there is no limit to the number an organization can sign. However, only 4 foreign players are allowed on the 25-man game roster, with a maximum of 3 position players or 3 pitchers. There can not be 4 position players or 4 pitchers at one time. 3 position players and 1 pitcher, 1 position player and 3 pitchers, or 2 of each are all possible. You obviously had no prior knowledge and researched it just recently for yourself so I will let this slide, but you cut off nearly fifty years of the history of baseball in Japan. You also didn't continue researching where you would had realized the roster limit on Americans is to prevent a money wins games situation where whichever team can afford more Americans wins. This limit is nothing similar to the NASL situation. You can also keep reading, try the main wiki page for Japanese Baseball, where they paid American teams to come play, destroy, them each year. They key part here is that Japan paid, and still pays, American teams to come to Japan and completely destroy their teams. What has this done? Well now it looks like the top Japan teams will be able to beat the top American teams. This was all done through playing against the best. I PMed you but I might as well make it public. I humbly concede to your point. I'm starting to lean more towards the other side of the argument now, especially after realizing that all my favorite players are Korean anyhow.
Thank you. Shocking to see someone so humble on the internet. My point is that while the first year or two may be brutal for the fans of foreign players, it will force the players to become better. If that happens, a snowball effect occurs where more koreans want to play here and then we become even better. In the end, E-Sports thrives in the West.
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EPT
