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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
On March 12 2011 03:12 zivac wrote: it would be interesting if marines and marauders would need to wait 45 seconds before they can use stim... or, if maybe, it took something like 30s more to research stim? | ||
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jaiiiii
United States72 Posts
On March 12 2011 02:37 proot wrote: The best thing about this nerf is now protoss has to preplan the amount of storms they have before a major battle, just like the other races. It was pretty annoying to see terrans get emps out, win a major fight, then get worn down by storms along the way because they missed emps or simply ran out. I still don't understand how so many people don't get that for something like the above stated, its okay, but the extent to which blizzard is attempting to nerf HT is too much. How hard is it to understand that having a HT-based army without KA is a death sentence. You basically cannot take ANY risks, because afterwards you get punished too much. Yes I understand that the current situation punishes you too little, but the proposed changes only skew it to the other side of the spectrum. Every race has to have some way of giving a fighting chance during a counter attack (if a fight goes sourly). For zerg, it's the ability to remax with relative ease. For terran, its the absurdly powerful defense of siege tanks and pf's. It's just those things that make the other player think twice about using their advantage and storming your base. Warp-in storms are that type of thing. So yeah, in conclusion, a more subtle nerf would've been better, such as decreasing the energy gained from KA (having to wait 10 seconds for a storm isn't so horrible, and gives terran a window that they can still attack if they are willing to accept the risks). But then again, very few people outside of those that play brotoss seem to grasp that. | ||
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jaiiiii
United States72 Posts
On March 12 2011 03:29 DusTerr wrote: or, if maybe, it took something like 30s more to research stim? Doesn't compare, that 30 second delay happens only once, and therefore only nerfs stim timing pushes. Imagine if every marine/marauder had to wait 45 seconds after being made to stim....-_-. On a side note, I don't think the biggest issue with stim was ever the timing push, but how absurdly effective it makes each unit. | ||
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Novembermike
United States102 Posts
On March 12 2011 03:41 jaiiiii wrote: Doesn't compare, that 30 second delay happens only once, and therefore only nerfs stim timing pushes. Imagine if every marine/marauder had to wait 45 seconds after being made to stim....-_-. On a side note, I don't think the biggest issue with stim was ever the timing push, but how absurdly effective it makes each unit. Yeah, putting stim on a 45 second cooldown and starting with it off cooldown is the closest thing I can think of to this. | ||
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seejay2
United States86 Posts
On March 12 2011 03:36 jaiiiii wrote: I still don't understand how so many people don't get that for something like the above stated, its okay, but the extent to which blizzard is attempting to nerf HT is too much. How hard is it to understand that having a HT-based army without KA is a death sentence. You basically cannot take ANY risks, because afterwards you get punished too much. Yes I understand that the current situation punishes you too little, but the proposed changes only skew it to the other side of the spectrum. Every race has to have some way of giving a fighting chance during a counter attack (if a fight goes sourly). For zerg, it's the ability to remax with relative ease. For terran, its the absurdly powerful defense of siege tanks and pf's. It's just those things that make the other player think twice about using their advantage and storming your base. Warp-in storms are that type of thing. So yeah, in conclusion, a more subtle nerf would've been better, such as decreasing the energy gained from KA (having to wait 10 seconds for a storm isn't so horrible, and gives terran a window that they can still attack if they are willing to accept the risks). But then again, very few people outside of those that play brotoss seem to grasp that. Exactly, I play toss so you CAN say im a lil biased. Although pre-planning may seem nice on paper, but you NEED HT to take a bio ball head to head (Considering you didnt take the collosus route). Now when you see a terran move outside your expansion and you have 3 available warpgates ready you think "do i have enough time to get a storm?" Then you don't want to take that riskand make a stalker and 2 zelots. This nerf feels like you would see alot less HT's in a game due to KA being taken out. Getting most of your HT's EMP'ed could just make you lose right there. | ||
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zivac
Croatia389 Posts
On March 12 2011 03:29 DusTerr wrote: or, if maybe, it took something like 30s more to research stim? its not even close | ||
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Novembermike
United States102 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 12 2011 03:36 jaiiiii wrote: I still don't understand how so many people don't get that for something like the above stated, its okay, but the extent to which blizzard is attempting to nerf HT is too much. How hard is it to understand that having a HT-based army without KA is a death sentence. You basically cannot take ANY risks, because afterwards you get punished too much. Yes I understand that the current situation punishes you too little, but the proposed changes only skew it to the other side of the spectrum. Every race has to have some way of giving a fighting chance during a counter attack (if a fight goes sourly). For zerg, it's the ability to remax with relative ease. For terran, its the absurdly powerful defense of siege tanks and pf's. It's just those things that make the other player think twice about using their advantage and storming your base. Warp-in storms are that type of thing. So yeah, in conclusion, a more subtle nerf would've been better, such as decreasing the energy gained from KA (having to wait 10 seconds for a storm isn't so horrible, and gives terran a window that they can still attack if they are willing to accept the risks). But then again, very few people outside of those that play brotoss seem to grasp that. Yep. If you go storm instead of colossi without KA, you're always 2 good EMPs from a loss. By comparison, Terran is nowhere near 2 good storms from a loss. They can just stim, retreat to a PF and heal. P cannot retreat and without KA, and even if they do get some of their army away from the faster Terran army with conc shell, EMP will still neuter the Protoss army for a full 60 seconds. That's plenty of time to end the game. Even with KA, colossus tech is better than storm. If you make templar tech this fragile, there's no choice to be made. Colossi every game, all game. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On March 12 2011 01:47 Toadvine wrote: Ravens have the same speed as Ghosts... And both are significantly faster than HTs, and also have a higher sight range. Speed doesn't necessarily mean movement speed. A ghosts EMP takes no time to hit the Templar and has good range. A raven will have to fly its slow ass to the HT, land a turret right next to it, or HSM it, and you expect it not to get feedbacked? | ||
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thesums
Taiwan257 Posts
I feel the nerf is fair. In BW it takes time to make HTs unlike SC2, and units do not bunch up as much (although Storm damage is superior) As can be seen from GSL and how the protoss are doing, i have no idea why ppl complain. Pros playing protoss usually have one control group for the whole army and zealots are behind stalkers...lol. And they can still win. Or they have high temps in same group and they just suicide in the front of army....I dont know why pro players like 1 control group.... | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On March 12 2011 07:10 thesums wrote: Watch the GSL and you will know ghosts arent that good against high temps. Feedback cost less energy and it is instant, where as EMP actually has a missile going at the target. So that means even if clicked at the same time both Storm and Feedback will go off first. Furthermore, it is cheaper making HTs, and 1 HT can do many feedbacks and these will usually 1 shot ghost (if the ghost has half energy they are dead). Now if you add the fact you can warp in HTs.... I feel the nerf is fair. In BW it takes time to make HTs unlike SC2, and units do not bunch up as much (although Storm damage is superior) As can be seen from GSL and how the protoss are doing, i have no idea why ppl complain. Pros playing protoss usually have one control group for the whole army and zealots are behind stalkers...lol. And they can still win. Or they have high temps in same group and they just suicide in the front of army....I dont know why pro players like 1 control group.... you're forgetting that ghosts have cloak and last time i checked snipe is instant too. and HT is cheaper than ghosts??? wtf... simple calculation from what i remember: 150/150 ghost, 50/25 techlab, 150/50 academy 50/150 ht, 150/200 archive, 150/100 twilight then add: 200/200 storm :: 150/150 cloak 150/150 KA :: 100/100 Moebius Reactor another note. can't we look at HT + Warpgate as one of the synergies that everyone was talking about awhile ago? like mule+thor, MMM, etc. i think this is one of those synergies for protoss. lets not point fingers at high templar, warpgate is the issue. | ||
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Xecutor
Canada12 Posts
Watch the GSL and you will know ghosts arent that good against high temps. Feedback cost less energy and it is instant, where as EMP actually has a missile going at the target. EMP is an instant cast with an instant animation, like the current fungal growth animation and cast. It has no missile. The missile you might be thinking of is from Science Vessels in Brood-war. Therefore, Feedback and EMP have instant casting, except that EMP has a slightly longer range. In regards to the main topic: The comparison between the Ghost, the Infestor and the High Templar is comparing Apples and Oranges. Ghosts and Infestors are supporting spellcaster units with limited damage capacity through their spells (except for nukes). High Templar are large DPS capacity spellcasters meant for large Area of Effect damage akin to siege units, but without siege range. High Templar are unique Tier 3 units while Ghosts and Infestors are Tier 2 support spellcasters. This is why I find it a little strange to compare all 3 casters in one basket. High Templar, being Tier 3 and requiring a lot more tech to acquire than Ghosts (2 tech buildings and 2 upgrades vs 1 tech building and 2 upgrades) should have an advantage over ghosts. However, this upper-hand is balanced out by an overlapping spell called EMP. EMP counters all spellcasters equally and gives Terran a chance to buy time to counter a Templar/Sentry heavy force while acquiring some other tech, or while using the spell as a tactical device to push Protoss back. The reason why Protoss needs the Khaydarin Amulet when using High Templar tech is that they need energy to storm. The start of 50 energy on each HT is too limited and only makes sense when first acquiring Templar tech after the first 210 seconds acquiring the tech. There was a thread here that was locked that calculated the time to reach 75 energy without the amulet as 44.4 seconds (in-game time). That is way too long for any kind of tactical play, and because High Templar are completely useless without any energy and without any defensive capability, getting EMPed during that waiting time of 44.4 seconds or at the end of it, when an engagement does occur, means that Protoss automatically loses the battles because Protoss cybercore units cannot fight Terran infantry - they're too weak even with superior forge upgrades. Storm/Colossus AoE damage is required to fight a lategame bio-army from Terran, esp when supported by Ghosts. A good example of why the KA upgrade makes sense is the game series between SCfOu and SanZenith on the GSL yesterday. SanZenith barely stayed at par with SC's marauders and won mostly because he out-macroed SC. SC made a lot of mistakes in those games by not microing marauders out of storms a lot of times, by getting out-expanded, by not defending key bases when warp-in DTs were wreaking havoc in his main on Terminus RE (for example), and San Zenith kept up and fought hard. And, the only reason that series seemed to even be close was because of the presence of Khaydarin Amulet. Being a main Protoss player, I can agree that KA can be quite powerful bordering on OP, but it is necessary for the High Templar Tech path to even exist. A more reasonable solution to removing the upgrade would be to weaken it. - Add a cooldown of 10-15 seconds to all spells on HT upon warp-in - Increase the starting energy by 15 (similar to Brood-war KA) which gives about 17.76 sec recharge time - Increase the energy recharge rate for HT only by a factor of about 1.7x or 1.8x All of the above ensure there is no instant warp-in storms, and it rewards prepared Protoss players who see a drop of multiple medivacs early, and punishes Protoss players who see it too late. The above also ensure that Psi-storm reinforcement isn't as powerful as it is right now. But, it gives a reasonable leeway for both Protoss and Terran. Another important aspect of the above proposed solutions is that they allow Protoss players to not die to mass mutalisk balls of 20+ mutas even when Blink-Stalkers are present. Thank you kindly for reading, this is my first post here, so please be gentle  | ||
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proot
United States126 Posts
On March 12 2011 04:43 kcdc wrote: Yep. If you go storm instead of colossi without KA, you're always 2 good EMPs from a loss. By comparison, Terran is nowhere near 2 good storms from a loss. They can just stim, retreat to a PF and heal. P cannot retreat and without KA, and even if they do get some of their army away from the faster Terran army with conc shell, EMP will still neuter the Protoss army for a full 60 seconds. That's plenty of time to end the game. Even with KA, colossus tech is better than storm. If you make templar tech this fragile, there's no choice to be made. Colossi every game, all game. If you engage a terran near PFs with grouped HTs, yeah, you're two EMPs from losing your army. Since when do protoss players actually do that? Once they have HTs out, they're free to take over the map. As long as they keep an eye on terran army movement, they can just soften the terran army up from every small engagement. As long as protoss stays on equal bases with the terran with HT out, they should not lose to any direct attack. Amulet right now guarantees that. Yes, the nerf is harsh and they should have either buffed storm aoe or archons to compensate. Personally, I'd much rather fight colossi every game than HTs. At least it's possible to engage that if you keep up on macro. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On March 12 2011 07:45 Xecutor wrote: Being a main Protoss player, I can agree that KA can be quite powerful bordering on OP Imagine what Terran players think of it. I personally hate Collossus more than HT because I can at least blame my losses against HT on poor EMP. I think making HT have to wait 10-20 seconds would be alright. | ||
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Xecutor
Canada12 Posts
On March 12 2011 07:45 Xecutor wrote: Thank you, I agree to that wholeheartedly. I do understand what Terrans feel, and that is why I believe that removing the KA is a big mistake. Weakening it would be more reasonable.Being a main Protoss player, I can agree that KA can be quite powerful bordering on OP Imagine what Terran players think of it. I personally hate Collossus more than HT because I can at least blame my losses against HT on poor EMP. I think making HT have to wait 10-20 seconds would be alright. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On March 12 2011 07:45 proot wrote: If you engage a terran near PFs with grouped HTs, yeah, you're two EMPs from losing your army. Since when do protoss players actually do that? Once they have HTs out, they're free to take over the map. As long as they keep an eye on terran army movement, they can just soften the terran army up from every small engagement. As long as protoss stays on equal bases with the terran with HT out, they should not lose to any direct attack. Amulet right now guarantees that. Yes, the nerf is harsh and they should have either buffed storm aoe or archons to compensate. Personally, I'd much rather fight colossi every game than HTs. At least it's possible to engage that if you keep up on macro. from what i saw san vs sc, i think if sc was on equal base with san, sc would have won the first game. the fact that protoss had more base and had KA and was only able to come up top by a small margin says something. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
Poll: What do you think the best solution is? Khadarian Amulet should remain an upgrade, but it should give less energy than now (eg. +15 energy) (20) Khadarian Amulet should not have been touched, it was fine as is, all things considered. (15) Different Solution/Other (4) The removal of Khadarian Amulet completely seems to be the best option. (3) 42 total votes Your vote: What do you think the best solution is? (Vote): The removal of Khadarian Amulet completely seems to be the best option. I know it won't get too many hits at page 59, but I haven't seen one yet, so... | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On March 12 2011 07:56 jinorazi wrote: from what i saw san vs sc, i think if sc was on equal base with san, sc would have won the first game. the fact that protoss had more base and had KA and was only able to come up top by a small margin says something. Personally, the bigger issue isn't just HT, it's when you're able to get HT and Colossus simultaneously. It's when you go Robo tech and then transition to HT. You can expect the Terran player to also have say Vikings and something like Siege Tanks or Thors as well, maybe a banshee or two, but it's that scenario where HT truly shine, because they force the enemy to run out of the storm WHILE getting pummeled by Thermal Lance Colossus. | ||
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JackDragon
525 Posts
[quote] - Increase the energy recharge rate for HT only by a factor of about 1.7x or 1.8x [/QUOTE] That's not ONLY, thats rather huge. I'm personaly not sure about removing KA but I can say that it does not make it impossible to play, just a bit more focus on the HT and plan ahead. However it does hurt if Terran get some good emps. Becuase if you go HT you will lose of he get all your HTs, no question. So honestly with the change on EMP to only remove 100 energy might actually make it very ballanced. On the note that removing KA makes all casters on same footing I would dissagree. Since the infestor can burrow and moves fairly fast(2.5 of creep) and the ghost can cloak and moves at a normal speed (2.5), while the HT is dead if he moves out alone since he don't have stealth and is slow as a building. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On March 12 2011 08:02 FabledIntegral wrote: Personally, the bigger issue isn't just HT, it's when you're able to get HT and Colossus simultaneously. It's when you go Robo tech and then transition to HT. You can expect the Terran player to also have say Vikings and something like Siege Tanks or Thors as well, maybe a banshee or two, but it's that scenario where HT truly shine, because they force the enemy to run out of the storm WHILE getting pummeled by Thermal Lance Colossus. oh i completely agree. i think protoss late game mix can be extremely strong. as a random player i actually dont know what to do as zerg if protoss has zealot/sentry/stalker/colossi/HT/void. | ||
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