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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 12 2011 08:19 jinorazi wrote:
oh i completely agree. i think protoss late game mix can be extremely strong. as a random player i actually dont know what to do as zerg if protoss has zealot/sentry/stalker/colossi/HT/void.
i don't know what to do midgame against a good zerg.
The cling to Deathballs shows you that Protoss sees no chance in Early/Midgame
that should tell you alot about balance for protoss.
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Why don't they just keep the amulet and give HT an initial down timer for Storm (and possibly a reuse timer)?
For example, Corruptors "Corruption" ability takes 45 seconds to use after its initial spawn. High templars could have a similar restriction in the form of a 10-20 second cooldown after warping in where they are unable to use Psionic Storm. Thus they are operational a lot sooner than without amulet but can't simply be thrown down mid engagement as a clutch unit.
Mineral lines would be generally safer (HT could still be used for warp in storms of the opponent isn't paying attention or has poor vision), clutch "mid engagement" HT spawn > storms would be harder to execute and thus would have to be accounted for in the protoss' plan of engagement and quick storm defense would be negated or reduced.
However, Protoss who are in a losing battle with almost no escape can throw down a few HT knowing they'll be ready to storm the oncoming enemy as he approaches. They'll be operational faster than amulet-less HT and have more energy ready for a second storm.
A personal rant (I'm zerg and I know there's enough QQ from us already so reader beware): + Show Spoiler + It really is frustrating sometimes seeing all harass opportunities (As a zerg) shut down by the superiority of Protoss spell casters, I understand that your spell casters are essential to your army composition otherwise you'd get roflstomped every game but I think it's kind of disgusting when a ball of thirty mutas can be warded off or completely vanquished by clutch HTs thrown down one after another.
Maybe it's poor design on the part of blizzard. Protoss and Terran can effectively deal with each others spell casters. They are both able to neutralize energy and deal damage to one another but when it comes to ZvP they haven't given zerg any cost effective way of dealing with spell casters aside from "Kill em dead! You have some fast units!" It's hard enough dealing with Colossus death balls, then you have Colossus VR death balls, and then I've occasionally face Colossus HT death balls which absolutely melt anything Zerg can muster aside from Ultralisk (Which are then countered then by a tier 1 unit).
I do agree that removing amulet is going too far especially vT but there's also another matchup and as far as vZ is concerned, HT are another deadly weapon to the already lethal arsenal of the Protoss army.
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You kno how ridicilous it gets when protoss has 200 vs 200 fight with terran and after losing a few units they keep warping in ht and spam storms all the over the players, that kind of power in few seconds is pathetic. protoss alrdy have ffaster reinfocements than terrans dont make it instant storms as well  i bet im gonna get some protoss fanboys to rage at me
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On March 12 2011 08:24 MagicGunner wrote:
Why don't they just keep the amulet and give HT an initial down timer for Storm (and possibly a reuse timer)?
For example, Corruptors "Corruption" ability takes 45 seconds to use after its initial spawn. High templars could have a similar restriction in the form of a 10-20 second cooldown after warping in where they are unable to use Psionic Storm. Thus they are operational a lot sooner than without amulet but can't simply be thrown down mid engagement as a clutch unit.
That actually sounds very reasonable, I hope that they consider this as an option.
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So honestly with the change on EMP to only remove 100 energy might actually make it very ballanced.
That nerf changes nothing to the EMP spell behavior on casters since the timing of EMP is a full 160 seconds (including Ghost and Moebius Reactor build time) before the timing of getting Templar tech which in itself takes 320 seconds+ 5 second warp-in for HT (including Twilight Council, Templar Archives, Storm and KA) on the current patch.
And since when did you see a High Templar having more than 100 energy in SC2? the most they will have is 80-90 when KA is not upgraded, before a battle happens, and 1 EMP shuts that down making the HT useless.
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On March 12 2011 08:02 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 07:56 jinorazi wrote:On March 12 2011 07:45 proot wrote:On March 12 2011 04:43 kcdc wrote:On March 12 2011 03:36 jaiiiii wrote:On March 12 2011 02:37 proot wrote:
The best thing about this nerf is now protoss has to preplan the amount of storms they have before a major battle, just like the other races. It was pretty annoying to see terrans get emps out, win a major fight, then get worn down by storms along the way because they missed emps or simply ran out. I still don't understand how so many people don't get that for something like the above stated, its okay, but the extent to which blizzard is attempting to nerf HT is too much. How hard is it to understand that having a HT-based army without KA is a death sentence. You basically cannot take ANY risks, because afterwards you get punished too much. Yes I understand that the current situation punishes you too little, but the proposed changes only skew it to the other side of the spectrum. Every race has to have some way of giving a fighting chance during a counter attack (if a fight goes sourly). For zerg, it's the ability to remax with relative ease. For terran, its the absurdly powerful defense of siege tanks and pf's. It's just those things that make the other player think twice about using their advantage and storming your base. Warp-in storms are that type of thing. So yeah, in conclusion, a more subtle nerf would've been better, such as decreasing the energy gained from KA (having to wait 10 seconds for a storm isn't so horrible, and gives terran a window that they can still attack if they are willing to accept the risks). But then again, very few people outside of those that play brotoss seem to grasp that. Yep. If you go storm instead of colossi without KA, you're always 2 good EMPs from a loss. By comparison, Terran is nowhere near 2 good storms from a loss. They can just stim, retreat to a PF and heal. P cannot retreat and without KA, and even if they do get some of their army away from the faster Terran army with conc shell, EMP will still neuter the Protoss army for a full 60 seconds. That's plenty of time to end the game. Even with KA, colossus tech is better than storm. If you make templar tech this fragile, there's no choice to be made. Colossi every game, all game. If you engage a terran near PFs with grouped HTs, yeah, you're two EMPs from losing your army. Since when do protoss players actually do that? Once they have HTs out, they're free to take over the map. As long as they keep an eye on terran army movement, they can just soften the terran army up from every small engagement. As long as protoss stays on equal bases with the terran with HT out, they should not lose to any direct attack. Amulet right now guarantees that. Yes, the nerf is harsh and they should have either buffed storm aoe or archons to compensate. Personally, I'd much rather fight colossi every game than HTs. At least it's possible to engage that if you keep up on macro. from what i saw san vs sc, i think if sc was on equal base with san, sc would have won the first game. the fact that protoss had more base and had KA and was only able to come up top by a small margin says something. Personally, the bigger issue isn't just HT, it's when you're able to get HT and Colossus simultaneously. It's when you go Robo tech and then transition to HT. You can expect the Terran player to also have say Vikings and something like Siege Tanks or Thors as well, maybe a banshee or two, but it's that scenario where HT truly shine, because they force the enemy to run out of the storm WHILE getting pummeled by Thermal Lance Colossus.
well said thatz what i was thinking when you have colosis adding ht with instant storm make it hard for terran to micro both vikings and ghost and mmm at the same time
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On March 12 2011 08:23 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 08:19 jinorazi wrote:
oh i completely agree. i think protoss late game mix can be extremely strong. as a random player i actually dont know what to do as zerg if protoss has zealot/sentry/stalker/colossi/HT/void.
i don't know what to do midgame against a good zerg. The cling to Deathballs shows you that Protoss sees no chance in Early/Midgame that should tell you alot about balance for protoss.
Move out with a 5gate attack, threaten, retreat, get some colossus, take a third, kill him if he expands too much or overdrones. I'd say 80% of the Protoss players I play are constantly scouting with hallu phoenixes, I'm talking about they'll have used 10+ hallu phoenixes before I get my fourth saturated.
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for the people that love comparing ghost to HT so much.ghost
- cost more 150/150
- take 45 seconds to make
- EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
- ghost are hard to remake once they are dead, if you do make em you have to stop some MM production meaning smaller army
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed
So after this patch you just cant panic spam Ht to defend youself, you need to use ur HT like you sentries and keep em safe. and people saying how HT tech is dead... dude all you have to do is wait like ~18 seconds for a storm to be rdy. lastly sentries + Colosis + HT = death to terran
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On March 12 2011 08:23 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 08:19 jinorazi wrote:
oh i completely agree. i think protoss late game mix can be extremely strong. as a random player i actually dont know what to do as zerg if protoss has zealot/sentry/stalker/colossi/HT/void.
i don't know what to do midgame against a good zerg. The cling to Deathballs shows you that Protoss sees no chance in Early/Midgame that should tell you alot about balance for protoss.
There are a plethora of options available to you which you should be able to exploit. Anything from Phoenix harass (To force Hydras, while you tech to Colossus), DT play, Zealot drops, Generic Stalker Sentry attacks w/ FF just to name a few very basic ones. Your personal experiences in PvZ is not the end all-be all of the balance discussion.
And the reason why Protoss players "cling" to death balls is because quite simply, it's the most effective and easily executable strategy to use against the standard zerg player.
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EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed False.
EMP is instant.
HT miss-storms, they wasted energy and did no damage. Without energy they're useless and upon retreat are easy pickings by marauders.
EMP cast is as hard as Storm cast.
Also, 50/150 is expensive for Protoss since they spend a lot more gas than Terran on average. Minerals are easily spent, but gas is scarce and that's what makes HT expensive overall (especially considering the price of the tech)
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On March 12 2011 08:41 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
for the people that love comparing ghost to HT so much.ghost
- cost more 150/150
- take 45 seconds to make
- EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
- ghost are hard to remake once they are dead, if you do make em you have to stop some MM production meaning smaller army
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed
So after this patch you just cant panic spam Ht to defend youself, you need to use ur HT like you sentries and keep em safe. and people saying how HT tech is dead... dude all you have to do is wait like ~18 seconds for a storm to be rdy. lastly sentries + Colosis + HT = death to terran
This isn't really a fair analysis. If I wanted to pick and choose points to support the Ghost over the High Templar, I'd do something like:
- Available just after Barracks
- Able to Cloak
- Has a standard attack
- Runs at standard speed
- Doesn't require more than 2 or 3 to hit an entire army with their AoE.
However, that isn't really an argument. They're different units. They don't even serve close to the same purpose.
Perhaps you should take the same advice Terran players seem to want to give Protoss - If you're worried about losing all your Ghosts, why don't you just keep 1 or 2 sitting around your base, gathering energy so that you always have some available? I mean, Ghosts are even more survivable than HT, so logically, you can just sit them back and protect them (or even put them in a bunker to let them build their energy).
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OP leaves out way too much info. This is doomed to go on until Blizzard actually makes a decision.
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KA is a bit too strong atm. It never really mattered because people use to go straight to templar tech and I would build a fast ghost academy and start pumping out ghost. However when they transition from Coll to HT it makes it very hard for a terran player to keep up since you can push out so much more ht's faster than we can push out ghost.
I agree that removing KA is a bad choice but I do see why KA needs to be nerfed. As the poll said I wouldn't mind having KA be +15 energy or something lower so toss can't just warp in ht and storm my bio ball that was winning. 45 seconds to wait is just too long for a HT to get energy.
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On March 12 2011 08:52 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 08:41 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
for the people that love comparing ghost to HT so much.ghost
- cost more 150/150
- take 45 seconds to make
- EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
- ghost are hard to remake once they are dead, if you do make em you have to stop some MM production meaning smaller army
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed
So after this patch you just cant panic spam Ht to defend youself, you need to use ur HT like you sentries and keep em safe. and people saying how HT tech is dead... dude all you have to do is wait like ~18 seconds for a storm to be rdy. lastly sentries + Colosis + HT = death to terran This isn't really a fair analysis. If I wanted to pick and choose points to support the Ghost over the High Templar, I'd do something like: - Available just after Barracks - Able to Cloak - Has a standard attack - Runs at standard speed - Doesn't require more than 2 or 3 to hit an entire army with their AoE. However, that isn't really an argument. They're different units. They don't even serve close to the same purpose. Perhaps you should take the same advice Terran players seem to want to give Protoss - If you're worried about losing all your Ghosts, why don't you just keep 1 or 2 sitting around your base, gathering energy so that you always have some available? I mean, Ghosts are even more survivable than HT, so logically, you can just sit them back and protect them (or even put them in a bunker to let them build their energy).
Available just at rax? What? How is that different than HT available to be warped in at warpgate? Comparing the two, it's a disadvantage if anything, lol. You don't really need more than 2 or 3 storms to hit an entire army either with storm AOE :o
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On March 12 2011 09:08 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 08:52 Aequos wrote:On March 12 2011 08:41 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
for the people that love comparing ghost to HT so much.ghost
- cost more 150/150
- take 45 seconds to make
- EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
- ghost are hard to remake once they are dead, if you do make em you have to stop some MM production meaning smaller army
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed
So after this patch you just cant panic spam Ht to defend youself, you need to use ur HT like you sentries and keep em safe. and people saying how HT tech is dead... dude all you have to do is wait like ~18 seconds for a storm to be rdy. lastly sentries + Colosis + HT = death to terran This isn't really a fair analysis. If I wanted to pick and choose points to support the Ghost over the High Templar, I'd do something like: - Available just after Barracks - Able to Cloak - Has a standard attack - Runs at standard speed - Doesn't require more than 2 or 3 to hit an entire army with their AoE. However, that isn't really an argument. They're different units. They don't even serve close to the same purpose. Perhaps you should take the same advice Terran players seem to want to give Protoss - If you're worried about losing all your Ghosts, why don't you just keep 1 or 2 sitting around your base, gathering energy so that you always have some available? I mean, Ghosts are even more survivable than HT, so logically, you can just sit them back and protect them (or even put them in a bunker to let them build their energy). Available just at rax? What? How is that different than HT available to be warped in at warpgate? Comparing the two, it's a disadvantage if anything, lol. You don't really need more than 2 or 3 storms to hit an entire army either with storm AOE :o
What I meant was that the Tech building (ghost academy) is available to be produced as soon as the barracks is done, while the High Templar requires both a Twilight Council and a Templar Archives. With regards to the hitting the army thing, what I mean is that you need only 3 to get the full effect on every Protoss units - as in, you don't need to bring more Ghosts in to keep EMPing the army to hurt the units. With 3 storms, the army will run out and take, at most, 40 damage (stim speed really helps when fleeing static area damage spells).
Edit: Thank you to the poster beneath me for explaining it far more eloquently than I could manage.
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On March 12 2011 09:08 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 08:52 Aequos wrote:On March 12 2011 08:41 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
for the people that love comparing ghost to HT so much.ghost
- cost more 150/150
- take 45 seconds to make
- EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
- ghost are hard to remake once they are dead, if you do make em you have to stop some MM production meaning smaller army
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed
So after this patch you just cant panic spam Ht to defend youself, you need to use ur HT like you sentries and keep em safe. and people saying how HT tech is dead... dude all you have to do is wait like ~18 seconds for a storm to be rdy. lastly sentries + Colosis + HT = death to terran This isn't really a fair analysis. If I wanted to pick and choose points to support the Ghost over the High Templar, I'd do something like: - Available just after Barracks - Able to Cloak - Has a standard attack - Runs at standard speed - Doesn't require more than 2 or 3 to hit an entire army with their AoE. However, that isn't really an argument. They're different units. They don't even serve close to the same purpose. Perhaps you should take the same advice Terran players seem to want to give Protoss - If you're worried about losing all your Ghosts, why don't you just keep 1 or 2 sitting around your base, gathering energy so that you always have some available? I mean, Ghosts are even more survivable than HT, so logically, you can just sit them back and protect them (or even put them in a bunker to let them build their energy). Available just at rax? What? How is that different than HT available to be warped in at warpgate? Comparing the two, it's a disadvantage if anything, lol. You don't really need more than 2 or 3 storms to hit an entire army either with storm AOE :o
he is saying you can make the ghost academy right after barracks, so you have a shorter tech route than HT requires (gate>core>tc>archives). Also, in reference to "hit an entire army" Protoss is known for 'deathball' whereas terran armies tend to spread out quite a bit, especially when you start staggering tanks for tank-lines. So its more common for Protoss units to be in a bunched ball than Terran ones, at least in the late-midgame.
Also, along with the above point, EMP damage is not DoT like storm, its a flat dmg to shields and instant AOE energy drain.
I don't even think comparing the casters for each race is a viable method to discerning any balance of the HT's upgrade by itself, so the whole comparison of the two casters is kind of pointless.
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On March 12 2011 08:41 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
for the people that love comparing ghost to HT so much.ghost
- cost more 150/150
- take 45 seconds to make
- EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
- ghost are hard to remake once they are dead, if you do make em you have to stop some MM production meaning smaller army
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed
So after this patch you just cant panic spam Ht to defend youself, you need to use ur HT like you sentries and keep em safe. and people saying how HT tech is dead... dude all you have to do is wait like ~18 seconds for a storm to be rdy. lastly sentries + Colosis + HT = death to terran
Not sure if you read any analysis of how long it takes to get +25 energy. It's not "like ~18 seconds" for a storm, it's closer to a minute. If the nerf was 18 second initial cooldown on storm, I don't think there would be nearly as many complaints.
Edit: damn iPhone autocorrect
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On March 12 2011 09:16 learning wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 09:08 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 12 2011 08:52 Aequos wrote:On March 12 2011 08:41 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
for the people that love comparing ghost to HT so much.ghost
- cost more 150/150
- take 45 seconds to make
- EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
- ghost are hard to remake once they are dead, if you do make em you have to stop some MM production meaning smaller army
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed
So after this patch you just cant panic spam Ht to defend youself, you need to use ur HT like you sentries and keep em safe. and people saying how HT tech is dead... dude all you have to do is wait like ~18 seconds for a storm to be rdy. lastly sentries + Colosis + HT = death to terran This isn't really a fair analysis. If I wanted to pick and choose points to support the Ghost over the High Templar, I'd do something like: - Available just after Barracks - Able to Cloak - Has a standard attack - Runs at standard speed - Doesn't require more than 2 or 3 to hit an entire army with their AoE. However, that isn't really an argument. They're different units. They don't even serve close to the same purpose. Perhaps you should take the same advice Terran players seem to want to give Protoss - If you're worried about losing all your Ghosts, why don't you just keep 1 or 2 sitting around your base, gathering energy so that you always have some available? I mean, Ghosts are even more survivable than HT, so logically, you can just sit them back and protect them (or even put them in a bunker to let them build their energy). Available just at rax? What? How is that different than HT available to be warped in at warpgate? Comparing the two, it's a disadvantage if anything, lol. You don't really need more than 2 or 3 storms to hit an entire army either with storm AOE :o he is saying you can make the ghost academy right after barracks, so you have a shorter tech route than HT requires (gate>core>tc>archives). Also, in reference to "hit an entire army" Protoss is known for 'deathball' whereas terran armies tend to spread out quite a bit, especially when you start staggering tanks for tank-lines. So its more common for Protoss units to be in a bunched ball than Terran ones, at least in the late-midgame. Also, along with the above point, EMP damage is not DoT like storm, its a flat dmg to shields and instant AOE energy drain. I don't even think comparing the casters for each race is a viable method to discerning any balance of the HT's upgrade by itself, so the whole comparison of the two casters is kind of pointless.
Oh. I see. Although the entire deathball thing is nonsense. Show me an engagement where the toss army stays in a ball and the Terran army doesn't? And there is no reason to have staggered tank lines in TvP, so I'm not sure where that's coming from. lol at even getting tanks in the first place, they're just watered down colossus that can't be hit by air :S.
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On March 12 2011 09:20 FabledIntegral wrote:
lol at even getting tanks in the first place, they're just watered down colossus that can't be hit by air :S.
Biomech, i.e marines+marauders with tanks works very well against protoss deathballs.
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Please watch SanZenith vs. ScFoU.. Definitely shows how strong KA is and how ridiculous it is when the bio ball attacks in to a smaller army and 12 HT's warp and the Bio ball is half dead..
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EPT
