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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 12 2011 09:20 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 09:16 learning wrote:On March 12 2011 09:08 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 12 2011 08:52 Aequos wrote:On March 12 2011 08:41 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
for the people that love comparing ghost to HT so much.ghost
- cost more 150/150
- take 45 seconds to make
- EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
- ghost are hard to remake once they are dead, if you do make em you have to stop some MM production meaning smaller army
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed
So after this patch you just cant panic spam Ht to defend youself, you need to use ur HT like you sentries and keep em safe. and people saying how HT tech is dead... dude all you have to do is wait like ~18 seconds for a storm to be rdy. lastly sentries + Colosis + HT = death to terran This isn't really a fair analysis. If I wanted to pick and choose points to support the Ghost over the High Templar, I'd do something like: - Available just after Barracks - Able to Cloak - Has a standard attack - Runs at standard speed - Doesn't require more than 2 or 3 to hit an entire army with their AoE. However, that isn't really an argument. They're different units. They don't even serve close to the same purpose. Perhaps you should take the same advice Terran players seem to want to give Protoss - If you're worried about losing all your Ghosts, why don't you just keep 1 or 2 sitting around your base, gathering energy so that you always have some available? I mean, Ghosts are even more survivable than HT, so logically, you can just sit them back and protect them (or even put them in a bunker to let them build their energy). Available just at rax? What? How is that different than HT available to be warped in at warpgate? Comparing the two, it's a disadvantage if anything, lol. You don't really need more than 2 or 3 storms to hit an entire army either with storm AOE :o he is saying you can make the ghost academy right after barracks, so you have a shorter tech route than HT requires (gate>core>tc>archives). Also, in reference to "hit an entire army" Protoss is known for 'deathball' whereas terran armies tend to spread out quite a bit, especially when you start staggering tanks for tank-lines. So its more common for Protoss units to be in a bunched ball than Terran ones, at least in the late-midgame. Also, along with the above point, EMP damage is not DoT like storm, its a flat dmg to shields and instant AOE energy drain. I don't even think comparing the casters for each race is a viable method to discerning any balance of the HT's upgrade by itself, so the whole comparison of the two casters is kind of pointless. Oh. I see. Although the entire deathball thing is nonsense. Show me an engagement where the toss army stays in a ball and the Terran army doesn't? And there is no reason to have staggered tank lines in TvP, so I'm not sure where that's coming from. lol at even getting tanks in the first place, they're just watered down colossus that can't be hit by air :S.
Seiged Tanks are watered down Collosus? Lol, yea right. Seige Tanks are more, if not equally as efficient as Collosus, and much easier to mass. Seige Tanks work out great vs. any ground units. You must be pretty bad if you think Seige Tanks suck in TvP, and you're one of the people who are probably always outplayed by Protoss while you just mass marines and medivacs.
The game is too new to say anything but the obvious is bad vs. something, especially saying Seiged Tanks don't work in TvP when they have already been used effectively, is probably the saddest and most vague display of your horrible knowlege on SC and SC2.
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The problem is a templar without storm is useless beacuase and an archon is useless. It gets kited just like a zealot. I dont think it is reasonable that a end of the tech line unit gets completly nullified by a 50/50 upgrade. If they just removed the slow effect from archons I honestly think it would be fine, becuase you could warp your hts into archons and have them participate in the battle if the attack comes before storm is ready or if you get empd.
The change wouldnt affect PvZ and would still make templars viable vs T.
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On March 12 2011 09:34 titan55 wrote:
Please watch SanZenith vs. ScFoU.. Definitely shows how strong KA is and how ridiculous it is when the bio ball attacks in to a smaller army and 12 HT's warp and the Bio ball is half dead..
and what the point in still attacking there with bio if Warp-In Storms is OP?
Why should Pro Gamers do such a "mistake" if they didn't think they will win.
that is not gold level play up there...
just because a HT is a small unit doesn't mean it is weak by any means of course a AoE Spell Caster will deal alot of damage to units with low heal.
Lets say ZvT, would you ever see a Terran attacking with M&M head on against infestors?
No Terran would do such a reckless thing against Infestors, why do they still insist in doing so to Protoss?
The Reason is simple, Storm is not garanteed damage, thus can be outmicroed
while Fungal is garanteed damage.
How can something be OP that can be outmicroed, and hard countered with good play.
i don't get it.
How about getting some banshees? it not like Protoss can afford much Stalkers while warping in HTs.
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On March 12 2011 08:32 Xecutor wrote:Show nested quote +So honestly with the change on EMP to only remove 100 energy might actually make it very ballanced.
That nerf changes nothing to the EMP spell behavior on casters since the timing of EMP is a full 160 seconds (including Ghost and Moebius Reactor build time) before the timing of getting Templar tech which in itself takes 320 seconds+ 5 second warp-in for HT (including Twilight Council, Templar Archives, Storm and KA) on the current patch. And since when did you see a High Templar having more than 100 energy in SC2? the most they will have is 80-90 when KA is not upgraded, before a battle happens, and 1 EMP shuts that down making the HT useless.
I like how you said 1 emp shuts that down. You must be one of those guys that clump all their ht in one grouping... Really biased opinions on here.
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On March 12 2011 09:39 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 09:34 titan55 wrote:
Please watch SanZenith vs. ScFoU.. Definitely shows how strong KA is and how ridiculous it is when the bio ball attacks in to a smaller army and 12 HT's warp and the Bio ball is half dead.. and what the point in still attacking there with bio if Warp-In Storms is OP? Why should Pro Gamers do such a "mistake" if they didn't think they will win. that is not gold level play up there... just because a HT is a small unit doesn't mean it is weak by any means of course a AoE Spell Caster will deal alot of damage to units with low heal. No Terran would do such a reckless thing against Infestors, why do they still do it to Protoss?
then what do u expect the Terran to do? not attack and back off?
remember tech switching for Terran is impossible as we have to upgrade EITHER bio OR mech. If we go bio for 20 minutes, we can't just say fuck it lets go to mech now and expect to win.
It's not like drop works either cuz just a couple of warp HT's can really render the drops ineffective.. What else can a Terran dO??
Don't say bring more ghosts as ScFOu brought a TON of ghosts but just the waves of warp in overpowered the ghost's speed to reinforce.. they need to walk to the battle vs getting warped in.
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On March 12 2011 09:08 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 08:52 Aequos wrote:On March 12 2011 08:41 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
for the people that love comparing ghost to HT so much.ghost
- cost more 150/150
- take 45 seconds to make
- EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
- ghost are hard to remake once they are dead, if you do make em you have to stop some MM production meaning smaller army
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed
So after this patch you just cant panic spam Ht to defend youself, you need to use ur HT like you sentries and keep em safe. and people saying how HT tech is dead... dude all you have to do is wait like ~18 seconds for a storm to be rdy. lastly sentries + Colosis + HT = death to terran This isn't really a fair analysis. If I wanted to pick and choose points to support the Ghost over the High Templar, I'd do something like: - Available just after Barracks - Able to Cloak - Has a standard attack - Runs at standard speed - Doesn't require more than 2 or 3 to hit an entire army with their AoE. However, that isn't really an argument. They're different units. They don't even serve close to the same purpose. Perhaps you should take the same advice Terran players seem to want to give Protoss - If you're worried about losing all your Ghosts, why don't you just keep 1 or 2 sitting around your base, gathering energy so that you always have some available? I mean, Ghosts are even more survivable than HT, so logically, you can just sit them back and protect them (or even put them in a bunker to let them build their energy). Available just at rax? What? How is that different than HT available to be warped in at warpgate? Comparing the two, it's a disadvantage if anything, lol. You don't really need more than 2 or 3 storms to hit an entire army either with storm AOE :o
The cost to unlock Ghosts with EMP is 150 minerals and 50 gas, provided that you have a barracks with a tech lab. The cost to unlock Templars with Psionic Storm is 500/500. That's a big difference. Terran can splash a few Ghosts and then stop building Ghosts. Protoss need their casters to kick in HARD and FAST.
On March 12 2011 09:46 titan55 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 09:39 freetgy wrote:On March 12 2011 09:34 titan55 wrote:
Please watch SanZenith vs. ScFoU.. Definitely shows how strong KA is and how ridiculous it is when the bio ball attacks in to a smaller army and 12 HT's warp and the Bio ball is half dead.. and what the point in still attacking there with bio if Warp-In Storms is OP? Why should Pro Gamers do such a "mistake" if they didn't think they will win. that is not gold level play up there... just because a HT is a small unit doesn't mean it is weak by any means of course a AoE Spell Caster will deal alot of damage to units with low heal. No Terran would do such a reckless thing against Infestors, why do they still do it to Protoss? remember tech switching for Terran is impossible as we have to upgrade EITHER bio OR mech. If we go bio for 20 minutes, we can't just say fuck it lets go to mech now and expect to win.
Trying going single-Engineering Bay instead of double, and getting an Armory earlier so that you can transition into Biomech once you hit three bases. No, your bio won't be quite as strong, but your endgame will be stronger. It's always a trade-off. (Also, I think Bio + Air is stronger than Bio + Mech, but w/e.)
Alternatively, just add Hellions and Blue Flame when Protoss adds Templar. Hellions profit from mech upgrades, but don't need them like Tanks or Thors would.
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They need to walk to the battle because they have cloak and mobility, and are T2, plus they are also being reinforced with everything else from your base - sounds fair.
SCfOu stood still in about half of the storms, thats a lot less damage/casualties he could have taken. I really doubt anyone in SC would want to "finish off" a Protoss by going through small choke points while they have High Templar. Seige Tanks could have held positions while SC took more expansions, or denied San his.
High Templar are supposed to be as efficient as they are - they are a Raven and Ghost combined, are extremely risky and a large investment to get to should you choose to skip Collosus. Ghost is an antispellcaster, its not enough if the Storms go off, it's pretty obvious. MMM+Ghosts isn't enough, just like Stalker Zealot isn't enough the first minutes of the game, it took Sentry use to be able to own early PvT.
If someone is massing T1/T2, the person who is rushing to T3 and mass expanding should be able to compete, if not utterly crush the other person, who I might add was playing a lot worse. SC was the low tier one, yet he was the one behind bases. You need to be up bases, to out produce the tech units and have a better and faster max.
People are just so sad that they can't brute force MMM all game.
I wish people would read the damn posts in this thread before posting, so tired of repeating this shit.
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On March 12 2011 09:46 titan55 wrote:
then what do u expect the Terran to do? not attack and back off?
remember tech switching for Terran is impossible as we have to upgrade EITHER bio OR mech. If we go bio for 20 minutes, we can't just say fuck it lets go to mech now and expect to win.
It's not like drop works either cuz just a couple of warp HT's can really render the drops ineffective.. What else can a Terran dO??
Don't say bring more ghosts as ScFOu brought a TON of ghosts but just the waves of warp in overpowered the ghost's speed to reinforce.. they need to walk to the battle vs getting warped in.
Thats the point.
With Bio Play you won't get more options, there no point looking for and asking for it.
That's why you have to transition into something else (besides ghosts)
How is an upgrade argument valid, Zerg has also 2 different attack upgrade paths.
Protoss on the other side also has seperate Armor/Shield Upgrades.
Mech obviously deals more damage and benefits from 1 upgrade more than Bio does from 3.
You have to get out of tunnelvision ('only bio works'), then may be people will see some light.
Banshees are incredible good in PvT, that i am so happy that most Terrans don't use it except for Cloak Banshee rushes.
Air has a different Upgrade Path for all Races so here your argument doesn't work either.
And Protoss has Crappy Anti Air Units (Stalker 7 dps to light!, Sentry 6 dps)
energy can be used up before the engagement, or even kept in, to make them waste energy on feedbacks.
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On March 12 2011 03:12 sylverfyre wrote:
From watching games San's vs T wher he's heavily abusing Khaydarin (I feel like this is some of the best examples of a Protoss player REALLY milking the power of Khaydarin Amulet, between two high level players), I still feel like it's justified. He's on many more bases in order (often +2 bases over the T player) to have the gas to just buy psi storms like that. Also every well-aimed EMP is basically costing him 300 or more gas (with him spreading his HTs out quite a bit!)
Also, note how freaking impossible it was to keep HTs alive against a mobile terran bio player.
I really don't feel like T should be at any special advantages when he's down TWO BASES on the protoss. They SHOULD be fighting a losing battle, and that's really not what it felt like - especially the game on Terminus Re.
I'm not sure you understood what San's game plan was. He was basically expanding everywhere and relying almost solely (as you said, "abusing") on the HT to defend those bases. San had more bases but totally sacrificed his army size in order to get those bases, which is why during those big bio engagements SC usually had a 40+ food advantage. It's the equivalent of a player deciding to double expand in the beginning of the game. Most people would view this as suicide, since any smart opponent would simply decide that that's the time to just fucking kill the greedy player. But because of San's ability to absolutely abuse the HT and KA, there was nothing the terran could do about those extra bases.
The game is more complicated than "oh, player had x more bases so he should be winning." The conditions that enabled San to get and secure those bases was borderline ridiculous (though dts definitely helped).
BTW, i don't think entirely removing the KA is the answer, but immediate warp-in storms should definitely be fixed.
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On March 12 2011 03:24 jinorazi wrote:
everyone is referring to san vs sc. let me ask you this.
terran was on 2 base most of time, protoss was on 3 and 4.
the fights were almost even.
when i was watching the game, i thought it would be possible for protoss to run out of minerals while terran had 2 more expansions to take on his side of the map.
terran was the one being aggressive. protoss was being defensive yet when it came to money spent vs money spent, terran was much more efficient.
take KA out of the equation, someone tell me how the protoss could have still won.
(of course KA wasn't the only game winning element)
That's basically the point I was trying to make. San's abusing the shit out of KA, but he's also massively out-resourcing SC, and only barely keeping his head above water.
There are times that he has 90 probes against 30 SCVs and he's still struggling to keep SC off his face, with Khaydarin amulet letting him warp in storms.
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On March 12 2011 10:07 HighQuality wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 03:12 sylverfyre wrote:
From watching games San's vs T wher he's heavily abusing Khaydarin (I feel like this is some of the best examples of a Protoss player REALLY milking the power of Khaydarin Amulet, between two high level players), I still feel like it's justified. He's on many more bases in order (often +2 bases over the T player) to have the gas to just buy psi storms like that. Also every well-aimed EMP is basically costing him 300 or more gas (with him spreading his HTs out quite a bit!)
Also, note how freaking impossible it was to keep HTs alive against a mobile terran bio player.
I really don't feel like T should be at any special advantages when he's down TWO BASES on the protoss. They SHOULD be fighting a losing battle, and that's really not what it felt like - especially the game on Terminus Re. I'm not sure you understood what San's game plan was. He was basically expanding everywhere and relying almost solely (as you said, "abusing") on the HT to defend those bases. San had more bases but totally sacrificed his army size in order to get those bases, which is why during those big bio engagements SC usually had a 40+ food advantage. It's the equivalent of a player deciding to double expand in the beginning of the game. Most people would view this as suicide, since any smart opponent would simply decide that that's the time to just fucking kill the greedy player. But because of San's ability to absolutely abuse the HT and KA, there was nothing the terran could do about those extra bases. The game is more complicated than "oh, player had x more bases so he should be winning." The conditions that enabled San to get and secure those bases was borderline ridiculous (though dts definitely helped). BTW, i don't think entirely removing the KA is the answer, but immediate warp-in storms should definitely be fixed.
It's a little more complicated than that, but not really. SC let San get more bases, so that means San can have a lot more than he would've had SC -not- let him get more bases. San can make more, thus he can stop more. You notice that SCs bio balls were breaking about even, and thats with San on way more bases, and with the OVERPOWERED Khaydarin Amulet. If SC was in San's shoes, that game wouldve been over in every situation. SC was outplayed, what can you people not understand? He went from Gateway to High Templar whilst expanding, how is that not a huge risk that SC could have punished him for? lol.
If San didn't have an extra base up on SC, he wouldn't have had the resources to MAKE THE HT HE NEEDED. People also forget that Warp Gates have an average production cooldown, just like a queue... What is not fair? If a Protoss is macroing to his best abilities, when a drop comes, he should be waiting for a cooldown to be up, and if he doesn't - thats just a forgiving mechanic like Warp Gate.
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OK I've got 3 ideas which are pretty neat (cause I thought of them) and IMO would be a fair balance and make HT's more viable. Cause lets be honest no one wants to see more Collosssisiiii.
1.Blizzard should change the way EMP works (blizzspeak for nerf). In addition to the shield reduction EMP should "disrupt spellcasting" for say 30 game seconds or so but not drain ANY energy. Kind of like a silence in WoW. THis will allow toss to be able to create HT's confidently knowing that their energy pool isn't one EMP away from them losing. EMPs would be more of a disruption instead of a 'magic energy and shield draining' effect. This would also coincide a bit more with how EMPs actually work (roughly, roughly) which is something I know Blizzard loves to follow. While I agree that MAYBE toss shouldn't be able to warp in storms on the spot, having one EMP make all 8 of your HT's worthless especially after all the time waiting for their energy to fill is infuriating and broken.
2. Change Feedback to not only drain energy while causing damage but also transfer the energy drained to the HT. This would make HT's extremely entertaining. MMM? more like STORM STORM STORM. Or warp in an HT next to an orbital or queen with 100 energy? This would punish players who slip on their energy usage and/or terrans who insist on staying at MMM into the late game.. (i'm not qqing about MMM just saying that storm and other t3 is designed to punish players with lower tech armies so why not?)
3.
BUFF VOID RAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So obviously these should be implemented its just the question of which one? Or all of em?
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On March 12 2011 09:37 v3chr0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 09:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 12 2011 09:16 learning wrote:On March 12 2011 09:08 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 12 2011 08:52 Aequos wrote:On March 12 2011 08:41 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
for the people that love comparing ghost to HT so much.ghost
- cost more 150/150
- take 45 seconds to make
- EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
- ghost are hard to remake once they are dead, if you do make em you have to stop some MM production meaning smaller army
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed
So after this patch you just cant panic spam Ht to defend youself, you need to use ur HT like you sentries and keep em safe. and people saying how HT tech is dead... dude all you have to do is wait like ~18 seconds for a storm to be rdy. lastly sentries + Colosis + HT = death to terran This isn't really a fair analysis. If I wanted to pick and choose points to support the Ghost over the High Templar, I'd do something like: - Available just after Barracks - Able to Cloak - Has a standard attack - Runs at standard speed - Doesn't require more than 2 or 3 to hit an entire army with their AoE. However, that isn't really an argument. They're different units. They don't even serve close to the same purpose. Perhaps you should take the same advice Terran players seem to want to give Protoss - If you're worried about losing all your Ghosts, why don't you just keep 1 or 2 sitting around your base, gathering energy so that you always have some available? I mean, Ghosts are even more survivable than HT, so logically, you can just sit them back and protect them (or even put them in a bunker to let them build their energy). Available just at rax? What? How is that different than HT available to be warped in at warpgate? Comparing the two, it's a disadvantage if anything, lol. You don't really need more than 2 or 3 storms to hit an entire army either with storm AOE :o he is saying you can make the ghost academy right after barracks, so you have a shorter tech route than HT requires (gate>core>tc>archives). Also, in reference to "hit an entire army" Protoss is known for 'deathball' whereas terran armies tend to spread out quite a bit, especially when you start staggering tanks for tank-lines. So its more common for Protoss units to be in a bunched ball than Terran ones, at least in the late-midgame. Also, along with the above point, EMP damage is not DoT like storm, its a flat dmg to shields and instant AOE energy drain. I don't even think comparing the casters for each race is a viable method to discerning any balance of the HT's upgrade by itself, so the whole comparison of the two casters is kind of pointless. Oh. I see. Although the entire deathball thing is nonsense. Show me an engagement where the toss army stays in a ball and the Terran army doesn't? And there is no reason to have staggered tank lines in TvP, so I'm not sure where that's coming from. lol at even getting tanks in the first place, they're just watered down colossus that can't be hit by air :S. Seiged Tanks are watered down Collosus? Lol, yea right. Seige Tanks are more, if not equally as efficient as Collosus, and much easier to mass. Seige Tanks work out great vs. any ground units. You must be pretty bad if you think Seige Tanks suck in TvP, and you're one of the people who are probably always outplayed by Protoss while you just mass marines and medivacs. The game is too new to say anything but the obvious is bad vs. something, especially saying Seiged Tanks don't work in TvP when they have already been used effectively, is probably the saddest and most vague display of your horrible knowlege on SC and SC2.
Thanks for your blatant disregarding of Chill's little banner up top.
Concerning my suckage, may I ask how many times you've been in the top 200 of your server? Or quite simply, what's your rank?
Colossus have, I believe, nearly same range as siege tanks wrong here, I thought it was around 9 vs 11, apparently it's 9 vs 13, which is more than I thought, with a higher damage output against light units, and a much faster firing rate. They are a million times more mobile than siege tanks, and even more so, mobile while moving.
Yes, I think siege tanks are a very poor investment in TvP, after countless games of using them. Please enlighten me how you'd use them effectively on maps such as Metalopolis. Certain maps you can't even use them, other maps if you're going to use them you HAVE to successfully set up a contain - if you fail at that - you lose, quite simply.
But no no, just assume I'm some random Terran player that "just masses marines and medivacs." Even more amusing is how you've apparently ascertained from that post my BW knowledge.
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On March 12 2011 10:26 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 09:37 v3chr0 wrote:On March 12 2011 09:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 12 2011 09:16 learning wrote:On March 12 2011 09:08 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 12 2011 08:52 Aequos wrote:On March 12 2011 08:41 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
for the people that love comparing ghost to HT so much.ghost
- cost more 150/150
- take 45 seconds to make
- EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
- ghost are hard to remake once they are dead, if you do make em you have to stop some MM production meaning smaller army
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed
So after this patch you just cant panic spam Ht to defend youself, you need to use ur HT like you sentries and keep em safe. and people saying how HT tech is dead... dude all you have to do is wait like ~18 seconds for a storm to be rdy. lastly sentries + Colosis + HT = death to terran This isn't really a fair analysis. If I wanted to pick and choose points to support the Ghost over the High Templar, I'd do something like: - Available just after Barracks - Able to Cloak - Has a standard attack - Runs at standard speed - Doesn't require more than 2 or 3 to hit an entire army with their AoE. However, that isn't really an argument. They're different units. They don't even serve close to the same purpose. Perhaps you should take the same advice Terran players seem to want to give Protoss - If you're worried about losing all your Ghosts, why don't you just keep 1 or 2 sitting around your base, gathering energy so that you always have some available? I mean, Ghosts are even more survivable than HT, so logically, you can just sit them back and protect them (or even put them in a bunker to let them build their energy). Available just at rax? What? How is that different than HT available to be warped in at warpgate? Comparing the two, it's a disadvantage if anything, lol. You don't really need more than 2 or 3 storms to hit an entire army either with storm AOE :o he is saying you can make the ghost academy right after barracks, so you have a shorter tech route than HT requires (gate>core>tc>archives). Also, in reference to "hit an entire army" Protoss is known for 'deathball' whereas terran armies tend to spread out quite a bit, especially when you start staggering tanks for tank-lines. So its more common for Protoss units to be in a bunched ball than Terran ones, at least in the late-midgame. Also, along with the above point, EMP damage is not DoT like storm, its a flat dmg to shields and instant AOE energy drain. I don't even think comparing the casters for each race is a viable method to discerning any balance of the HT's upgrade by itself, so the whole comparison of the two casters is kind of pointless. Oh. I see. Although the entire deathball thing is nonsense. Show me an engagement where the toss army stays in a ball and the Terran army doesn't? And there is no reason to have staggered tank lines in TvP, so I'm not sure where that's coming from. lol at even getting tanks in the first place, they're just watered down colossus that can't be hit by air :S. Seiged Tanks are watered down Collosus? Lol, yea right. Seige Tanks are more, if not equally as efficient as Collosus, and much easier to mass. Seige Tanks work out great vs. any ground units. You must be pretty bad if you think Seige Tanks suck in TvP, and you're one of the people who are probably always outplayed by Protoss while you just mass marines and medivacs. The game is too new to say anything but the obvious is bad vs. something, especially saying Seiged Tanks don't work in TvP when they have already been used effectively, is probably the saddest and most vague display of your horrible knowlege on SC and SC2. Thanks for your blatant disregarding of Chill's little banner up top. Concerning my suckage, may I ask how many times you've been in the top 200 of your server? Or quite simply, what's your rank? Colossus have, I believe, the same range as siege tanks, with a higher damage output against light units, and a much faster firing rate. They are a million times more mobile than siege tanks, and even more so, mobile while moving. Yes, I think siege tanks are a very poor investment in TvP, after countless games of using them. Please enlighten me how you'd use them effectively on maps such as Metalopolis. Certain maps you can't even use them, other maps if you're going to use them you HAVE to successfully set up a contain - if you fail at that - you lose, quite simply. But no no, just assume I'm some random Terran player that "just masses marines and medivacs." Even more amusing is how you've apparently ascertained from that post my BW knowledge.
Collosus have 6 range and 9 when upgraded.
Tanks have 7 range and 13 in siege mode.
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On March 12 2011 10:26 FabledIntegral wrote:
Colossus have, I believe, the same range as siege tanks, with a higher damage output against light units, and a much faster firing rate. They are a million times more mobile than siege tanks, and even more so, mobile while moving.
tell me the range and damage rate of both units 
Tanks in decent numbers can't be fight with colossus.
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On March 12 2011 10:28 XLTomato wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 10:26 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 12 2011 09:37 v3chr0 wrote:On March 12 2011 09:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 12 2011 09:16 learning wrote:On March 12 2011 09:08 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 12 2011 08:52 Aequos wrote:On March 12 2011 08:41 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
for the people that love comparing ghost to HT so much.ghost
- cost more 150/150
- take 45 seconds to make
- EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
- ghost are hard to remake once they are dead, if you do make em you have to stop some MM production meaning smaller army
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed
So after this patch you just cant panic spam Ht to defend youself, you need to use ur HT like you sentries and keep em safe. and people saying how HT tech is dead... dude all you have to do is wait like ~18 seconds for a storm to be rdy. lastly sentries + Colosis + HT = death to terran This isn't really a fair analysis. If I wanted to pick and choose points to support the Ghost over the High Templar, I'd do something like: - Available just after Barracks - Able to Cloak - Has a standard attack - Runs at standard speed - Doesn't require more than 2 or 3 to hit an entire army with their AoE. However, that isn't really an argument. They're different units. They don't even serve close to the same purpose. Perhaps you should take the same advice Terran players seem to want to give Protoss - If you're worried about losing all your Ghosts, why don't you just keep 1 or 2 sitting around your base, gathering energy so that you always have some available? I mean, Ghosts are even more survivable than HT, so logically, you can just sit them back and protect them (or even put them in a bunker to let them build their energy). Available just at rax? What? How is that different than HT available to be warped in at warpgate? Comparing the two, it's a disadvantage if anything, lol. You don't really need more than 2 or 3 storms to hit an entire army either with storm AOE :o he is saying you can make the ghost academy right after barracks, so you have a shorter tech route than HT requires (gate>core>tc>archives). Also, in reference to "hit an entire army" Protoss is known for 'deathball' whereas terran armies tend to spread out quite a bit, especially when you start staggering tanks for tank-lines. So its more common for Protoss units to be in a bunched ball than Terran ones, at least in the late-midgame. Also, along with the above point, EMP damage is not DoT like storm, its a flat dmg to shields and instant AOE energy drain. I don't even think comparing the casters for each race is a viable method to discerning any balance of the HT's upgrade by itself, so the whole comparison of the two casters is kind of pointless. Oh. I see. Although the entire deathball thing is nonsense. Show me an engagement where the toss army stays in a ball and the Terran army doesn't? And there is no reason to have staggered tank lines in TvP, so I'm not sure where that's coming from. lol at even getting tanks in the first place, they're just watered down colossus that can't be hit by air :S. Seiged Tanks are watered down Collosus? Lol, yea right. Seige Tanks are more, if not equally as efficient as Collosus, and much easier to mass. Seige Tanks work out great vs. any ground units. You must be pretty bad if you think Seige Tanks suck in TvP, and you're one of the people who are probably always outplayed by Protoss while you just mass marines and medivacs. The game is too new to say anything but the obvious is bad vs. something, especially saying Seiged Tanks don't work in TvP when they have already been used effectively, is probably the saddest and most vague display of your horrible knowlege on SC and SC2. Thanks for your blatant disregarding of Chill's little banner up top. Concerning my suckage, may I ask how many times you've been in the top 200 of your server? Or quite simply, what's your rank? Colossus have, I believe, the same range as siege tanks, with a higher damage output against light units, and a much faster firing rate. They are a million times more mobile than siege tanks, and even more so, mobile while moving. Yes, I think siege tanks are a very poor investment in TvP, after countless games of using them. Please enlighten me how you'd use them effectively on maps such as Metalopolis. Certain maps you can't even use them, other maps if you're going to use them you HAVE to successfully set up a contain - if you fail at that - you lose, quite simply. But no no, just assume I'm some random Terran player that "just masses marines and medivacs." Even more amusing is how you've apparently ascertained from that post my BW knowledge. Collosus have 6 range and 9 when upgraded. Tanks have 7 range and 13 in siege mode.
I meant "almost the same," but I actually thought Colossus had 9 range and Siege tanks in siege mode at 11, not 13. I don't know why I thought it was 2 less than they are. My bad.
Is it their vision that's 11, not the range?
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On March 12 2011 10:26 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 09:37 v3chr0 wrote:On March 12 2011 09:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 12 2011 09:16 learning wrote:On March 12 2011 09:08 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 12 2011 08:52 Aequos wrote:On March 12 2011 08:41 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
for the people that love comparing ghost to HT so much.ghost
- cost more 150/150
- take 45 seconds to make
- EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
- ghost are hard to remake once they are dead, if you do make em you have to stop some MM production meaning smaller army
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed
So after this patch you just cant panic spam Ht to defend youself, you need to use ur HT like you sentries and keep em safe. and people saying how HT tech is dead... dude all you have to do is wait like ~18 seconds for a storm to be rdy. lastly sentries + Colosis + HT = death to terran This isn't really a fair analysis. If I wanted to pick and choose points to support the Ghost over the High Templar, I'd do something like: - Available just after Barracks - Able to Cloak - Has a standard attack - Runs at standard speed - Doesn't require more than 2 or 3 to hit an entire army with their AoE. However, that isn't really an argument. They're different units. They don't even serve close to the same purpose. Perhaps you should take the same advice Terran players seem to want to give Protoss - If you're worried about losing all your Ghosts, why don't you just keep 1 or 2 sitting around your base, gathering energy so that you always have some available? I mean, Ghosts are even more survivable than HT, so logically, you can just sit them back and protect them (or even put them in a bunker to let them build their energy). Available just at rax? What? How is that different than HT available to be warped in at warpgate? Comparing the two, it's a disadvantage if anything, lol. You don't really need more than 2 or 3 storms to hit an entire army either with storm AOE :o he is saying you can make the ghost academy right after barracks, so you have a shorter tech route than HT requires (gate>core>tc>archives). Also, in reference to "hit an entire army" Protoss is known for 'deathball' whereas terran armies tend to spread out quite a bit, especially when you start staggering tanks for tank-lines. So its more common for Protoss units to be in a bunched ball than Terran ones, at least in the late-midgame. Also, along with the above point, EMP damage is not DoT like storm, its a flat dmg to shields and instant AOE energy drain. I don't even think comparing the casters for each race is a viable method to discerning any balance of the HT's upgrade by itself, so the whole comparison of the two casters is kind of pointless. Oh. I see. Although the entire deathball thing is nonsense. Show me an engagement where the toss army stays in a ball and the Terran army doesn't? And there is no reason to have staggered tank lines in TvP, so I'm not sure where that's coming from. lol at even getting tanks in the first place, they're just watered down colossus that can't be hit by air :S. Seiged Tanks are watered down Collosus? Lol, yea right. Seige Tanks are more, if not equally as efficient as Collosus, and much easier to mass. Seige Tanks work out great vs. any ground units. You must be pretty bad if you think Seige Tanks suck in TvP, and you're one of the people who are probably always outplayed by Protoss while you just mass marines and medivacs. The game is too new to say anything but the obvious is bad vs. something, especially saying Seiged Tanks don't work in TvP when they have already been used effectively, is probably the saddest and most vague display of your horrible knowlege on SC and SC2. Thanks for your blatant disregarding of Chill's little banner up top. Concerning my suckage, may I ask how many times you've been in the top 200 of your server? Or quite simply, what's your rank? Colossus have, I believe, the same range as siege tanks, with a higher damage output against light units, and a much faster firing rate. They are a million times more mobile than siege tanks, and even more so, mobile while moving. Yes, I think siege tanks are a very poor investment in TvP, after countless games of using them. Please enlighten me how you'd use them effectively on maps such as Metalopolis. Certain maps you can't even use them, other maps if you're going to use them you HAVE to successfully set up a contain - if you fail at that - you lose, quite simply. But no no, just assume I'm some random Terran player that "just masses marines and medivacs." Even more amusing is how you've apparently ascertained from that post my BW knowledge.
No insult intended, but Siege Tanks do outrange Colossus (13 in Siege Mode to 9 with Extended Lances, 7 to 6 otherwise). The sight range makes it artificially shorter (as I'm sure you know from countless TvT games). I do agree they aren't the most useful unit in PvT, but I think that things like Banshees could at least be explored more as part of an army. Likewise, I wish I could see Ravens more (if I'm feedbacking your Ravens I'm not storming your army). Even units like Thors to combat Phoenixes and absorb a few hits would be interesting to see.
Edit: Beat to the punch by the above posters.
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On March 12 2011 10:13 v3chr0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 10:07 HighQuality wrote:On March 12 2011 03:12 sylverfyre wrote:
From watching games San's vs T wher he's heavily abusing Khaydarin (I feel like this is some of the best examples of a Protoss player REALLY milking the power of Khaydarin Amulet, between two high level players), I still feel like it's justified. He's on many more bases in order (often +2 bases over the T player) to have the gas to just buy psi storms like that. Also every well-aimed EMP is basically costing him 300 or more gas (with him spreading his HTs out quite a bit!)
Also, note how freaking impossible it was to keep HTs alive against a mobile terran bio player.
I really don't feel like T should be at any special advantages when he's down TWO BASES on the protoss. They SHOULD be fighting a losing battle, and that's really not what it felt like - especially the game on Terminus Re. I'm not sure you understood what San's game plan was. He was basically expanding everywhere and relying almost solely (as you said, "abusing") on the HT to defend those bases. San had more bases but totally sacrificed his army size in order to get those bases, which is why during those big bio engagements SC usually had a 40+ food advantage. It's the equivalent of a player deciding to double expand in the beginning of the game. Most people would view this as suicide, since any smart opponent would simply decide that that's the time to just fucking kill the greedy player. But because of San's ability to absolutely abuse the HT and KA, there was nothing the terran could do about those extra bases. The game is more complicated than "oh, player had x more bases so he should be winning." The conditions that enabled San to get and secure those bases was borderline ridiculous (though dts definitely helped). BTW, i don't think entirely removing the KA is the answer, but immediate warp-in storms should definitely be fixed. It's a little more complicated than that, but not really. SC let San get more bases, so that means San can have a lot more than he would've had SC -not- let him get more bases. San can make more, thus he can stop more. You notice that SCs bio balls were breaking about even, and thats with San on way more bases, and with the OVERPOWERED Khaydarin Amulet. If SC was in San's shoes, that game wouldve been over in every situation. SC was outplayed, what can you people not understand? He went from Gateway to High Templar whilst expanding, how is that not a huge risk that SC could have punished him for? lol. If San didn't have an extra base up on SC, he wouldn't have had the resources to MAKE THE HT HE NEEDED. People also forget that Warp Gates have an average production cooldown, just like a queue... What is not fair? If a Protoss is macroing to his best abilities, when a drop comes, he should be waiting for a cooldown to be up, and if he doesn't - thats just a forgiving mechanic like Warp Gate.
You're putting words in my mouth I never said; you're right that SC was outplayed for most of the games, and I agree that he deserved to lose the series. However, San basically used a strategy that abused sc2 mechanics to the point of absurdity. You say that San NEEDED the base because it allowed him to support the HT, but that's exactly the point i'm arguing. He KNEW that the ONLY things he needed to defend those bases were a couple of cannons and instant storms. Repeat: he constantly warded off armies that were +40 food in size because he had 10 HT in every engagement: 5 at the start, 5 warp ins later. In a more balanced situation, San should never have been able to defend those bases as well as he did.
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On March 12 2011 10:34 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 10:26 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 12 2011 09:37 v3chr0 wrote:On March 12 2011 09:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 12 2011 09:16 learning wrote:On March 12 2011 09:08 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 12 2011 08:52 Aequos wrote:On March 12 2011 08:41 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
for the people that love comparing ghost to HT so much.ghost
- cost more 150/150
- take 45 seconds to make
- EMP is a projectile and doesnt KILL and currently mainly used specifically in TvP
- ghost are hard to remake once they are dead, if you do make em you have to stop some MM production meaning smaller army
unlike HT, if you miss ur EMP you screwed
So after this patch you just cant panic spam Ht to defend youself, you need to use ur HT like you sentries and keep em safe. and people saying how HT tech is dead... dude all you have to do is wait like ~18 seconds for a storm to be rdy. lastly sentries + Colosis + HT = death to terran This isn't really a fair analysis. If I wanted to pick and choose points to support the Ghost over the High Templar, I'd do something like: - Available just after Barracks - Able to Cloak - Has a standard attack - Runs at standard speed - Doesn't require more than 2 or 3 to hit an entire army with their AoE. However, that isn't really an argument. They're different units. They don't even serve close to the same purpose. Perhaps you should take the same advice Terran players seem to want to give Protoss - If you're worried about losing all your Ghosts, why don't you just keep 1 or 2 sitting around your base, gathering energy so that you always have some available? I mean, Ghosts are even more survivable than HT, so logically, you can just sit them back and protect them (or even put them in a bunker to let them build their energy). Available just at rax? What? How is that different than HT available to be warped in at warpgate? Comparing the two, it's a disadvantage if anything, lol. You don't really need more than 2 or 3 storms to hit an entire army either with storm AOE :o he is saying you can make the ghost academy right after barracks, so you have a shorter tech route than HT requires (gate>core>tc>archives). Also, in reference to "hit an entire army" Protoss is known for 'deathball' whereas terran armies tend to spread out quite a bit, especially when you start staggering tanks for tank-lines. So its more common for Protoss units to be in a bunched ball than Terran ones, at least in the late-midgame. Also, along with the above point, EMP damage is not DoT like storm, its a flat dmg to shields and instant AOE energy drain. I don't even think comparing the casters for each race is a viable method to discerning any balance of the HT's upgrade by itself, so the whole comparison of the two casters is kind of pointless. Oh. I see. Although the entire deathball thing is nonsense. Show me an engagement where the toss army stays in a ball and the Terran army doesn't? And there is no reason to have staggered tank lines in TvP, so I'm not sure where that's coming from. lol at even getting tanks in the first place, they're just watered down colossus that can't be hit by air :S. Seiged Tanks are watered down Collosus? Lol, yea right. Seige Tanks are more, if not equally as efficient as Collosus, and much easier to mass. Seige Tanks work out great vs. any ground units. You must be pretty bad if you think Seige Tanks suck in TvP, and you're one of the people who are probably always outplayed by Protoss while you just mass marines and medivacs. The game is too new to say anything but the obvious is bad vs. something, especially saying Seiged Tanks don't work in TvP when they have already been used effectively, is probably the saddest and most vague display of your horrible knowlege on SC and SC2. Thanks for your blatant disregarding of Chill's little banner up top. Concerning my suckage, may I ask how many times you've been in the top 200 of your server? Or quite simply, what's your rank? Colossus have, I believe, the same range as siege tanks, with a higher damage output against light units, and a much faster firing rate. They are a million times more mobile than siege tanks, and even more so, mobile while moving. Yes, I think siege tanks are a very poor investment in TvP, after countless games of using them. Please enlighten me how you'd use them effectively on maps such as Metalopolis. Certain maps you can't even use them, other maps if you're going to use them you HAVE to successfully set up a contain - if you fail at that - you lose, quite simply. But no no, just assume I'm some random Terran player that "just masses marines and medivacs." Even more amusing is how you've apparently ascertained from that post my BW knowledge. No insult intended, but Siege Tanks do outrange Colossus (13 in Siege Mode to 9 with Extended Lances, 7 to 6 otherwise). The sight range makes it artificially shorter (as I'm sure you know from countless TvT games). I do agree they aren't the most useful unit in PvT, but I think that things like Banshees could at least be explored more as part of an army. Likewise, I wish I could see Ravens more (if I'm feedbacking your Ravens I'm not storming your army). Even units like Thors to combat Phoenixes and absorb a few hits would be interesting to see. Edit: Beat to the punch by the above posters.
I've incorporated Ravens for PDD against stalkers, but a single feedback to completely negate a majorly gas intensive unit would be worth it in a second. It's not too hard to keep them in the back, however. I personally have found banshees very poor against Protoss lategame after experimenting with them a lot (sometimes even trying 3-4 port banshee lategame). It's, quite simply, REALLY bad because by then Protoss has blink stalkers. Feedback also can really eff up banshees, not to mention storm when they start to clump up. What I've found most effective is applying tons of pressure with mass drops, while having your main army composition consist of "marine/marauder/medivac/ghost/thor/raven" and eventually tech to BC's if you have enough money. It's Marines are typically in the drops while Marauders are the main force DPS.
I find it funny everyone is saying "transition to something else, you can't stay tier 1 all game." Starport is technically tier 3. Terrans already use medivacs and vikings, ravens aren't super uncommon and it's not like they add any extra damage output to the army. Terrans aren't "staying on tier 1" but are rather "not using the factory units siege tanks/hellions/Thors," while getting nearly every other unit in their arsenal, lol.
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EPT
