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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
On March 11 2011 21:03 Dalavita wrote: Ravens against HTs.. Oh I don't know, feedback! Ghosts and Medivacs can die to HTs too, same with BCs... doesn't mean you shouldn't get them, lol. Bad argument #941932. edit: SC2 is way too new to say anything but the obvious is bad versus something, especially Ravens, a really underused unit in pro games. | ||
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Drazzzt
Germany999 Posts
Then, it would take several seconds before it would be possible to storm after a HT has warped in. | ||
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affliction
Germany198 Posts
Fact every protoss player is aware of: if the nerf goes live, HT will be completely dead in PvT. Nothing to discuss about THAT i guess. only possibility left: play Colossus and hope for the terran to not mass vikings. The patch will result in a pretty one-sided playstyle of Protoss against Terran, which is a pity, because the matchup is not broken. If anyone arguments, that 3 out of 4 players in the semi-finals of GSL are Protoss, then please look at the last GSL where it was the same with terran. (and to clarify: PvT balance has not changed since then). I hope for Blizzard to remove the nerf OR buff another aspect of the PvT play to make the match-up more interesting. | ||
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sysrpl
United States222 Posts
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
On March 11 2011 22:25 sysrpl wrote: If they do remove amulet, HT should be rebalanced by increasing storm damage or radius (Blizzard reduced the storm area by 70% during the beta). This has to be a joke. We're trying to get away from the "kill protoss before they reach high tech" and you want to increase their late-game power. | ||
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spbelky
United States623 Posts
1) Many people are treating the situation as if HT's will be useless now without the upgrade. I do not agree with this. They are not removing storm, they are just forcing you to plan ahead with your unit production, as the other two races do. 2) Would Protoss rather have A) High Templar keep the amulet upgrade, but be a special case, where they can not be warped in with warp gates, and must be produced from a gateway (with a build time as the other two races must) OR B) Remove the amulet upgrade, and keep High Templar as a Warpgate Unit... I realize this is a hypothetical situation, both of which nerf the HT, but hopefully it gives some perspective on the PvTvZvP analysis. 3) I think the removal of the amulet will force protoss players to warp HTs ahead of time, but more importantly, it will force protoss players to value the life of their HT a little more. Currently, in a PvT if a high templar gets off 1 storm before dying, the protoss considers this a success, because very rarely do HTs get to reach that 150 energy mark in aggressive late games. This leads to a gameplay style where protoss warp in HTs near the location at which they wish to storm, get a storm off, and try to get away, but rarely do. And if they do get away, they will likely not live the required duration to accumulate another 75 energy. I really think this change will force players to value their high templars lives a little more. Extending #3 a little further. in 200v200 food battles, where both players have an excess of resources, it actually becomes strategically sound to warp in a high templar, storm, and then suicide it to free up the supply to warp in another in order to get another storm. you essentially pay 150gas for a storm, not a high templar. 4) The ability to warp in 2 HT, storm twice right as they spawn, and then morph into an archon, is a bit too cost efficient for me. Not necessarily the resources, but the TIME factor. spending 300 gas for a near instant 2x storm and then wait a few seconds for an archon, seems fair from a mineral/gas perspective, but the speed at which you can accomplish this task is where it is "imbalanced" 5) The other alternative I would offer is that they keep the amulet upgrade, but increase the cooldown HT's put on your warpgate, and only warpgate (the gateway production time would remain the same). Or simply make the upgrade "increases starting energy by 25, but increases the build time by X), where X should equal something >25. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On March 11 2011 21:51 v3chr0 wrote: Ghosts and Medivacs can die to HTs too, same with BCs... doesn't mean you shouldn't get them, lol. Bad argument #941932. edit: SC2 is way too new to say anything but the obvious is bad versus something, especially Ravens, a really underused unit in pro games. Difference is, Ghosts can neutralize HTs and aren't slow as shit, and melt into your main army whereas a big fuckoff raven with 0 range will always get feedbackd. Seriously, think. Ravens might be underused, but combating HTs isnt their intended usage. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On March 11 2011 23:09 Dalavita wrote: Difference is, Ghosts can neutralize HTs and aren't slow as shit, and melt into your main army whereas a big fuckoff raven with 0 range will always get feedbackd. Seriously, think. Ravens might be underused, but combating HTs isnt their intended usage. Ravens have the same speed as Ghosts... And both are significantly faster than HTs, and also have a higher sight range. | ||
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Novembermike
United States102 Posts
On March 11 2011 22:54 spbelky wrote: 3) I think the removal of the amulet will force protoss players to warp HTs ahead of time, but more importantly, it will force protoss players to value the life of their HT a little more. Currently, in a PvT if a high templar gets off 1 storm before dying, the protoss considers this a success, because very rarely do HTs get to reach that 150 energy mark in aggressive late games. This leads to a gameplay style where protoss warp in HTs near the location at which they wish to storm, get a storm off, and try to get away, but rarely do. And if they do get away, they will likely not live the required duration to accumulate another 75 energy. I really think this change will force players to value their high templars lives a little more. Have you ever tried to use HT? This is an honest question, it isn't rhetorical or anything. The reason Protoss players don't value HT is because HT have 80 hp and 1.875 speed (average speed is 2.25). You could theoretically put them in Warp Prisms, but if you've gone Colossi then you've forced vikings so that doesn't seem like a great idea (BW had some issues with Goliaths sniping shuttles, but Goliaths couldn't chase as easily). | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On March 11 2011 22:54 spbelky wrote: I couldn't possibly read through all 58 pages, but I skimmed a few of the pages, and here are the points I'd like to emphasize 1) Many people are treating the situation as if HT's will be useless now without the upgrade. I do not agree with this. They are not removing storm, they are just forcing you to plan ahead with your unit production, as the other two races do. Saying useless is a way of saying. Are reapers useless? No. Yet, we rarely see them, and their use is very limited. That's what people are saying. 2) Would Protoss rather have A) High Templar keep the amulet upgrade, but be a special case, where they can not be warped in with warp gates, and must be produced from a gateway (with a build time as the other two races must) OR B) Remove the amulet upgrade, and keep High Templar as a Warpgate Unit... I realize this is a hypothetical situation, both of which nerf the HT, but hopefully it gives some perspective on the PvTvZvP analysis. well... an "either or" statment doesn't help this debate at all, so i'll skip this. 3) I think the removal of the amulet will force protoss players to warp HTs ahead of time, but more importantly, it will force protoss players to value the life of their HT a little more. Currently, in a PvT if a high templar gets off 1 storm before dying, the protoss considers this a success, because very rarely do HTs get to reach that 150 energy mark in aggressive late games. This leads to a gameplay style where protoss warp in HTs near the location at which they wish to storm, get a storm off, and try to get away, but rarely do. And if they do get away, they will likely not live the required duration to accumulate another 75 energy. I really think this change will force players to value their high templars lives a little more. Extending #3 a little further. in 200v200 food battles, where both players have an excess of resources, it actually becomes strategically sound to warp in a high templar, storm, and then suicide it to free up the supply to warp in another in order to get another storm. you essentially pay 150gas for a storm, not a high templar. I'm not sure how toss don't value the life of their HT. It's just that HT they can't outrun stimmed MM. If they die, it's not because toss sends them to suicide, it's because they need to be sent one by one to storm, and come back, but most often, concussive shells and stim, take care of them when they're trying to retreat. 4) The ability to warp in 2 HT, storm twice right as they spawn, and then morph into an archon, is a bit too cost efficient for me. Not necessarily the resources, but the TIME factor. spending 300 gas for a near instant 2x storm and then wait a few seconds for an archon, seems fair from a mineral/gas perspective, but the speed at which you can accomplish this task is where it is "imbalanced" 5) The other alternative I would offer is that they keep the amulet upgrade, but increase the cooldown HT's put on your warpgate, and only warpgate (the gateway production time would remain the same). Or simply make the upgrade "increases starting energy by 25, but increases the build time by X), where X should equal something >25. I agree with the need for a nerf, though removing KA is far from that. Those two suggestions along with others that have been said as KA increasing maximum energy capacity but only 12 or 15 starting energy would be good. | ||
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Punkdp1p3r
United States30 Posts
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Novembermike
United States102 Posts
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Aequos
Canada606 Posts
On March 11 2011 12:10 HighQuality wrote: The biggest misconception people have in this thread (and the forums in general) is the idea that tier 1 units should not beat tier 3; that MM shouldn't theoretically be able to beat HT. Starcraft is NOT a game of counters. When battling armies it's about maximizing the utility of each unit, whether they are tier 1 or 3 does not matter. If Starcraft 2 really was a game of "x beats y", we'd get more crappy games that consist of giant army blobs smashing into each other with no real structure to the actual armies. This is personally the reason why I enjoy players like MarineKing so much, because he understands that keeping his army lean is so much more cost-effective than just massing up blobs consisting of 8 different units. It's dumb that people decry such styles as boring, when it's actually the most dynamic. The problem isn't that T1 is beating T3 - The issue is that T1 beats T1, T2, and all T3 but the colossus. You don't hear Protoss arguing that the Carrier should roflstomp marines - we know that's not what it's for. However, the High Templar has really one purpose, and that is to kill marines. If it can't do that well, why build it? As an aside, weakening the energy drain on EMP will help mitigate this a bit, as we probably will be keeping our Templar until they reach higher energy, so a feedback after they EMP is not as unreasonable. | ||
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proot
United States126 Posts
It's pretty funny to see all the comments about telling terran to go mech. The only situation mech will work is through a narrow choke or close positions. Terran doesn't have spider mines to limit protoss mobility, which means protoss always has the ability to hit soft points of defense. Hellion harass is easily stopped by control of the watchtowers(which protoss will undoubtedly have against a mech terran) and good pylon/obs placement, provided they don't keep their stalkers in 1 control group with their army. I'm honestly glad we won't see another san vs sc sort of series after the patch. Yeah, it may have been cool to watch, but it showed how little thought it took to use templar against t's army. Whenever sc ran out of ghosts, he was forced to retreat and stop the pressure. When he didn't, he ended up down 50-100 supply to the constant reinforcing storms. | ||
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Pheint
United States73 Posts
On March 11 2011 19:34 v3chr0 wrote: It's not about having a similiar time frame. The High Templar is SUPPOSED to be better than the Ghost. . Oh I agree, I'm just pointing out that they were indeed similar timeframes. The HT should be more powerful than the ghost. | ||
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Pheint
United States73 Posts
On March 12 2011 02:37 proot wrote: The best thing about this nerf is now protoss has to preplan the amount of storms they have before a major battle, just like the other races. It was pretty annoying to see terrans get emps out, win a major fight, then get worn down by storms along the way because they missed emps or simply ran out. It's less fun to know that a stimmed marauder/marine army destroys your gateway units and one of the two units you use to combat this is getting slightly nerfed. Should be challenging and fun tho. | ||
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Novembermike
United States102 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
"Just keep them alive for 50 seconds while they generate energy" is such a challenge to expect from the toss. That's the difference that removing Khaydarin Amulet is bringing. Already Psi Storm must be researched, where fungal and EMP don't, AND it's freaking expensive. I'm not really in favor of a unit currently taking (350min &)400 gas and 3 minutes between the time you decide "I want this unit" and the time that you actually have use of them. That's longer than putting up a new base! From watching games San's vs T wher he's heavily abusing Khaydarin (I feel like this is some of the best examples of a Protoss player REALLY milking the power of Khaydarin Amulet, between two high level players), I still feel like it's justified. He's on many more bases in order (often +2 bases over the T player) to have the gas to just buy psi storms like that. Also every well-aimed EMP is basically costing him 300 or more gas (with him spreading his HTs out quite a bit!) Also, note how freaking impossible it was to keep HTs alive against a mobile terran bio player. I really don't feel like T should be at any special advantages when he's down TWO BASES on the protoss. They SHOULD be fighting a losing battle, and that's really not what it felt like - especially the game on Terminus Re. | ||
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zivac
Croatia389 Posts
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
terran was on 2 base most of time, protoss was on 3 and 4. the fights were almost even. when i was watching the game, i thought it would be possible for protoss to run out of minerals while terran had 2 more expansions to take on his side of the map. terran was the one being aggressive. protoss was being defensive yet when it came to money spent vs money spent, terran was much more efficient. take KA out of the equation, someone tell me how the protoss could have still won. (of course KA wasn't the only game winning element) | ||
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