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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 11 2011 14:35 avilo wrote:Man, some of these posts make me question if you guys ever played brood war. Templars didn't warp-in there...and they were still used in the exact same way to defend expos as they are now...the difference being you had to have foresight and put them at your expansion ahead of time, instead of instantly having them available wherever you wanted to. Same deal will be for SC2 when the amulet is nerfed...templar are just as powerful defensively as they are now, but you have to build them ahead of time at your expo with ur cannon flowers...just like brood war... Everyone seems so spoiled now that SC2 is out (including myself sometimes  ). I don't think people ever complained in SC1, "i can't have templars everywhere i want on the map wawawa." As a matter of fact...a lot of times a protoss would have a gateway at a faraway expansion just for the sole purpose of building a templar or DT there in lategame...pvz especially
Starcraft 2 isn't Broodwar.
Making a new game with new mechanics, units and upgrades is about working with them, not getting rid of them.
Warp is a new mechanic as are the +25 starting energy upgrades, High Templar are near-useless without it and KA, as the investment they take far exceeds Ghosts or Infestors. Protoss don't have production queues for Warp gates, meaning gateway units wouldn't accompany a Templar to reinforce(whos been hanging out at a base, gaining his energy, sad that Blizzard took away his Amulet). Templar have barely any mobility aside from Warp Gates, and have no defensive abilities unlike Ghosts and Infestors. If a Protoss is macroing well, its not like he can just warp a HT in instantly, he has a Warp gate cooldown equal to average production time. If he has a cooldown up, thats one of the benefits of a forgiving mechanic like warp gates.
If you read the posts you so speak of, I probably wouldn't have to mention this.
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On March 11 2011 14:35 avilo wrote:Man, some of these posts make me question if you guys ever played brood war. Templars didn't warp-in there...and they were still used in the exact same way to defend expos as they are now...the difference being you had to have foresight and put them at your expansion ahead of time, instead of instantly having them available wherever you wanted to. Same deal will be for SC2 when the amulet is nerfed...templar are just as powerful defensively as they are now, but you have to build them ahead of time at your expo with ur cannon flowers...just like brood war... Everyone seems so spoiled now that SC2 is out (including myself sometimes ). I don't think people ever complained in SC1, "i can't have templars everywhere i want on the map wawawa." As a matter of fact...a lot of times a protoss would have a gateway at a faraway expansion just for the sole purpose of building a templar or DT there in lategame...pvz especially
but it was the warpgate that changed the game, templar stayed the same.
i remember watching some games(bw) where the templar comes out last second from one of the gateways next to the nexus(expo) and defend the attack with 1 storm. its almost the same idea with the current situation. if anything, increase warp in time for templars.
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This is a pretty dumb OP. The only point that was addressed in any detail was the point about balancing casters. Which is a totally irrelevant point.
The important issue, that of whether the game would be balanced, wasn't looked at at all, and is the relevant question.
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On March 02 2011 04:20 Darneck wrote:
And also since you said it is the same for protoss but the other way around it means that a terran will be able to get 2 ghosts ready to emp from 1 barracks a lot quicker than a protoss can get 2 high templars ready to storm from 1 gateway.
How? It takes 45 seconds to get Ghost ready to EMP with the energy upgrade, that's 2 in 90 seconds. 2 high temps from one gateway would take you around 94 seconds if my math is correct. (first templar is warped in, after 5 seconds it is there, and 40 seconds after it materializes, another is warped in. That means .5 seconds before the second high templar becomes virtually corporeal (oxymoronic i know), the first is ready to storm, and 44.5 seconds later the second would be able to storm)). That's a relatively similar timeframe.
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On March 11 2011 18:02 Pheint wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:20 Darneck wrote:
And also since you said it is the same for protoss but the other way around it means that a terran will be able to get 2 ghosts ready to emp from 1 barracks a lot quicker than a protoss can get 2 high templars ready to storm from 1 gateway. How? It takes 45 seconds to get Ghost ready to EMP with the energy upgrade, that's 2 in 90 seconds. 2 high temps from one gateway would take you around 94 seconds if my math is correct. (first templar is warped in, after 5 seconds it is there, and 40 seconds after it materializes, another is warped in. That means .5 seconds before the second high templar becomes virtually corporeal (oxymoronic i know), the first is ready to storm, and 44.5 seconds later the second would be able to storm)). That's a relatively similar timeframe.
My opinion is that it shouldn't be similar. The reason protoss gateway units (pre-templar) sucks is imo because of warp gates. If you couldn't warp in a zealot/sentry/stalker "instantly" protoss would be really underpowered. So this comparison is not really fair imo. It might be abit to silly with instant storms, but I do think 45 seconds is way too long. They should just nerf the amulet slightly so it takes like 10 seconds after warp-in totaling to 15 seconds before they can cast a storm. If protoss has a weaker "meat shield/army" then they need to have stronger casters.
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On March 11 2011 14:25 ZeromuS wrote:
I just realised that this sets a terrible precedent for the future where sc2 will have some of its most interesting upgrades or spells removed instead of tweaked :/
There will never see dark swarm or an equivalent in sc2 ever and this makes me a little sad since the little bit of bw i know, i do know that dark swarm vs irradiate was a very very cool dynamic.
Isn't PDD essentially dark swarm, and Fungal is essentially irradiate, to a degree.
Maybe less so on the fungal part.
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On March 11 2011 19:30 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 14:25 ZeromuS wrote:
I just realised that this sets a terrible precedent for the future where sc2 will have some of its most interesting upgrades or spells removed instead of tweaked :/
There will never see dark swarm or an equivalent in sc2 ever and this makes me a little sad since the little bit of bw i know, i do know that dark swarm vs irradiate was a very very cool dynamic. Isn't PDD essentially dark swarm, and Fungal is essentially irradiate, to a degree. Maybe less so on the fungal part.
I'd compare the thor to irradiate
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On March 11 2011 18:02 Pheint wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:20 Darneck wrote:
And also since you said it is the same for protoss but the other way around it means that a terran will be able to get 2 ghosts ready to emp from 1 barracks a lot quicker than a protoss can get 2 high templars ready to storm from 1 gateway. How? It takes 45 seconds to get Ghost ready to EMP with the energy upgrade, that's 2 in 90 seconds. 2 high temps from one gateway would take you around 94 seconds if my math is correct. (first templar is warped in, after 5 seconds it is there, and 40 seconds after it materializes, another is warped in. That means .5 seconds before the second high templar becomes virtually corporeal (oxymoronic i know), the first is ready to storm, and 44.5 seconds later the second would be able to storm)). That's a relatively similar timeframe.
It's not about having a similiar time frame. The High Templar is SUPPOSED to be better than the Ghost. High Templar require a larger investment, and 2 upgrades to be as efficient enough to pay for themselves, because they cannot retreat well - they usually die or merge. Warp gates provide the mobility the High Templar lacks. Ghosts are very mobile and can benefit from the cloak upgrade and their own +25energy up to be at maximum effectiveness vs HT. HT are T3, Ghosts are T2 - they shouldn't be equal, they both have enough to counter each other, that should be fair and fine enough.
Edit: Ravens also fill a huge void the Ghost lacks against the High Templar and are also T2... that sounds pretty damn fair. More people need to use Ravens, regardless of how bad they think they are.
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It doesnt even make sense too go ht tech , if all your ht's get empd or taken out its pointless to warp in more at or near the battle as they will be useless and you will lose them if your army dies (wich it will without the support from storms) and they are far to slow to save up energy at your base and then start heading up to the fight when they have close to enough energy only to maybe get off a storm or get empd and become utterly useless again.They are so slow they wouldnt even make it to the fight anyways, imo this change makes no sense, maybe make a tweak 5-10 second cool down on storm when a high templar is warped in would be reasonable and even then thats quite a bit of time for a ht to get emp'd
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On March 11 2011 14:35 avilo wrote:Man, some of these posts make me question if you guys ever played brood war. Templars didn't warp-in there...and they were still used in the exact same way to defend expos as they are now...the difference being you had to have foresight and put them at your expansion ahead of time, instead of instantly having them available wherever you wanted to. Same deal will be for SC2 when the amulet is nerfed...templar are just as powerful defensively as they are now, but you have to build them ahead of time at your expo with ur cannon flowers...just like brood war... Everyone seems so spoiled now that SC2 is out (including myself sometimes ). I don't think people ever complained in SC1, "i can't have templars everywhere i want on the map wawawa." As a matter of fact...a lot of times a protoss would have a gateway at a faraway expansion just for the sole purpose of building a templar or DT there in lategame...pvz especially
at broodwar when u had 1-2 templars a terran wouldnt dare show up with bio units, or a zerg would not ever attack unless he had defilers and lings....
storm does slower damage in SC2, easier to dodge, you also dont even 1shot marauder if they stay there and eat the whole storm...
can't compare both, really
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I'm pretty sure Avilo's trolling. There's no way you could even compare the way Protoss operates in SC2 to the way they were in BW. It's like, their design was completely turned on its head.
For the record, I'm pretty sure that like, 12 Roaches can just walk over a cannon + templar defense in SC2. In BW, Storming a ramp protected by cannons made it absolutely unbreakable without Swarm or Ultras.
On March 11 2011 09:36 Kazang wrote:
Why would anyone bother to read or understand the context of a post they reply to when they have an argumentative axe to grind?
My post was illustrating the logical fallacy of the post I quoted, HT will continue to be used even without KA, for all the reasons in my post and more.
You also seem to be under the impression HT warp in with zero energy, or that feedback costs 75, neither of which is true.
The HT's "counter", the Ghost, is also "countered" by a HT. Feedback costs 50 energy, the starting energy of a HT, so a HT is quite capable of defending itself from a Ghost.
Not that that is even a relevant argument as neither unit is supposed to work in isolation.
But if you still want continue with that flawed line of thinking, consider how a Colossus can defend itself from it's "counter", the Viking, Voidray or Corruptor?
Your other points also seem odd, as I didn't suggest that Colossus has no advantages to make it's cost in time and resources worthwhile, merely that it is vastly more expensive and takes a longer time to build.
Considering that the major gripe with this change is that HT will effectively have a build time before they become fully potent, contrasting the build time with it's alternative makes it still look very good.
Also the complaint that a HT can be effectively attacked "while building" is not really a valid argument, as really it's not as if keeping a unit alive for 45 seconds is somehow difficult.
Say for example you just warp the HT in next to the Warpgate, unless there are units in your base killing your gates it's going to be able to survive for 45 seconds, and if there are units killing the gates, being inside one isn't going to help very much. In the middle of the deathball is also usually a good place, if the entire army cannot defend the HT for 45 seconds then there is something else very wrong.
Both units have their strengths and weaknesses, saying that the HT will never be used is at best naive, at worst moronic.
For the record I don't feel either way about the change. But I haven't seen a single sound argument for KA in it's current form, other than just because Protoss players feel they need the (mathematically unbalanced) advantage, which is just a subjective opinion and not truly an argument.
Somehow, the first part of my post got cut out. But, since you took the time to write such an elaborate response, I'll follow suit, and maybe even provide you a decent reason why outright removal of KA is, above all other things, a change that is bad for the game.
Let's start with the Colossus. It is a very robust unit, perhaps the most powerful unit in the game. Personally, I hate it, and would love to see it replaced with something else, but eh, we work with the tools we have. In any case, the Colossus is so powerful, that it necessitates the existence of specific counter units in the other races' arsenals. It's expensive, and slow to build, but after it's complete, it is going to be worth it, unless you mishandle it horribly. It's not particularly mobile, but it does walk up cliffs, which gives it an edge in some situations.
Now, the way Protoss works right now, they need aoe damage vs Terran and Zerg. The only gateway unit that does decent dps is the Zealot, which suffers from diminishing returns in large numbers, and all the other cons of being melee. Therefore, to actually kill the opposing army, you want very powerful damage dealers, whose presence covers for the deficiency of your core units. In absence of these, any unit comp literally loses to things like mass hydras or mass marine with medivacs.
The problem removing KA introduces (as opposed to an initial cooldown on Storm for instance) is the difficulty of reinforcing with HTs. If you commited to Templar tech, and don't also have Colossus, then you NEED to Storm in every battle, or you just outright lose. So essentially, you either continue warping in templar to walk around with your army (and they're significantly slower than hydras off creep) and just use the Storms as your Templar get enough energy; or you warp them in your base, and have them walk over once they have enough energy. The first option makes you insanely vulnerable to ANYTHING that messes with your Templar, be it EMP, or just random lings or mutas sniping them, since they always lag behind, no matter where you go. The second option has a similar problem, and also becomes absolutely terrible on bigger maps.
To sum it up, you really need the aoe as Protoss, and after this change, Templar will simply not be reliable enough. Sure, late game with 3+ mining bases, people will get them and station them in expos to help fending off small attacks. But for offensive purposes, this change makes Templar tech absolutely dead, and it also removes the option of not building Colossi. That's really my main gripe, this game lacks variety as is, and we really don't need huge changes that essentially remove entire playstyles.
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IMO, terrans undervalue ghosts and ravens (turrets with they're ridiculous dps and HSMissile) as they are a potential solution to HTs, turrets mostly. As noone is using them now or hasnt even tried there is no point discussing though but im pretty sure there is big potential in them.
Generally, if they do carry through with the removal of KA, its going to be extremely tough to deal with any large drops/mutaballs.
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On March 11 2011 19:44 Toadvine wrote:I'm pretty sure Avilo's trolling. There's no way you could even compare the way Protoss operates in SC2 to the way they were in BW. It's like, their design was completely turned on its head. For the record, I'm pretty sure that like, 12 Roaches can just walk over a cannon + templar defense in SC2. In BW, Storming a ramp protected by cannons made it absolutely unbreakable without Swarm or Ultras. Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 09:36 Kazang wrote:
Why would anyone bother to read or understand the context of a post they reply to when they have an argumentative axe to grind?
My post was illustrating the logical fallacy of the post I quoted, HT will continue to be used even without KA, for all the reasons in my post and more.
You also seem to be under the impression HT warp in with zero energy, or that feedback costs 75, neither of which is true.
The HT's "counter", the Ghost, is also "countered" by a HT. Feedback costs 50 energy, the starting energy of a HT, so a HT is quite capable of defending itself from a Ghost.
Not that that is even a relevant argument as neither unit is supposed to work in isolation.
But if you still want continue with that flawed line of thinking, consider how a Colossus can defend itself from it's "counter", the Viking, Voidray or Corruptor?
Your other points also seem odd, as I didn't suggest that Colossus has no advantages to make it's cost in time and resources worthwhile, merely that it is vastly more expensive and takes a longer time to build.
Considering that the major gripe with this change is that HT will effectively have a build time before they become fully potent, contrasting the build time with it's alternative makes it still look very good.
Also the complaint that a HT can be effectively attacked "while building" is not really a valid argument, as really it's not as if keeping a unit alive for 45 seconds is somehow difficult.
Say for example you just warp the HT in next to the Warpgate, unless there are units in your base killing your gates it's going to be able to survive for 45 seconds, and if there are units killing the gates, being inside one isn't going to help very much. In the middle of the deathball is also usually a good place, if the entire army cannot defend the HT for 45 seconds then there is something else very wrong.
Both units have their strengths and weaknesses, saying that the HT will never be used is at best naive, at worst moronic.
For the record I don't feel either way about the change. But I haven't seen a single sound argument for KA in it's current form, other than just because Protoss players feel they need the (mathematically unbalanced) advantage, which is just a subjective opinion and not truly an argument. Somehow, the first part of my post got cut out. But, since you took the time to write such an elaborate response, I'll follow suit, and maybe even provide you a decent reason why outright removal of KA is, above all other things, a change that is bad for the game. Let's start with the Colossus. It is a very robust unit, perhaps the most powerful unit in the game. Personally, I hate it, and would love to see it replaced with something else, but eh, we work with the tools we have. In any case, the Colossus is so powerful, that it necessitates the existence of specific counter units in the other races' arsenals. It's expensive, and slow to build, but after it's complete, it is going to be worth it, unless you mishandle it horribly. It's not particularly mobile, but it does walk up cliffs, which gives it an edge in some situations. Now, the way Protoss works right now, they need aoe damage vs Terran and Zerg. The only gateway unit that does decent dps is the Zealot, which suffers from diminishing returns in large numbers, and all the other cons of being melee. Therefore, to actually kill the opposing army, you want very powerful damage dealers, whose presence covers for the deficiency of your core units. In absence of these, any unit comp literally loses to things like mass hydras or mass marine with medivacs. The problem removing KA introduces (as opposed to an initial cooldown on Storm for instance) is the difficulty of reinforcing with HTs. If you commited to Templar tech, and don't also have Colossus, then you NEED to Storm in every battle, or you just outright lose. So essentially, you either continue warping in templar to walk around with your army (and they're significantly slower than hydras off creep) and just use the Storms as your Templar get enough energy; or you warp them in your base, and have them walk over once they have enough energy. The first option makes you insanely vulnerable to ANYTHING that messes with your Templar, be it EMP, or just random lings or mutas sniping them, since they always lag behind, no matter where you go. The second option has a similar problem, and also becomes absolutely terrible on bigger maps. To sum it up, you really need the aoe as Protoss, and after this change, Templar will simply not be reliable enough. Sure, late game with 3+ mining bases, people will get them and station them in expos to help fending off small attacks. But for offensive purposes, this change makes Templar tech absolutely dead, and it also removes the option of not building Colossi. That's really my main gripe, this game lacks variety as is, and we really don't need huge changes that essentially remove entire playstyles.
This is exactly what i was saying in my post 2 above but you went into greater detail, Ht's will simply not be viable as offensive units (especially against terran) so now protoss are stuck with 1 tech tree i dont understand blizzards reasoning in not even trying a tweak to kaydarian amulet before completely removing it, doesnt make sense ><
Too bad archons werent alot better then it would still give a reason to go high templar tech after these changes.
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Why are we discussing times? They are irrelevant. The time a protos needs to get storm is enough for terran to get a good amount of ghost. Besides, the reason KH is being changed is because they can kill minerals lines, not because they kill Marines balls so bad or because they deny drops.
There are only two ways to kill a mineral line with a HT:
1- Proxy pylon. It can easy be avoid by scouting the hedge of a base.
2- Warp Prism. The change will not help here because the protos player can just warp the HT in base and move out.
This change will greatly effect the other job of the HT which is to kill bio balls and defend against drop. If this change goes live the following things will happen.
Defend drops:
1- Build cannon. That are unefficient against a MMM drop.
2- Gateway units. Again some problem.
3- Tech to HT and have 1 or 2 in reserve in expo that are likely going to be drooped
Deffending against bioballs:
1- Go collossus. Easy and effiecient with some mobility until terran air is present in good numbers
2- Go to a mix immortals and HT after air is present. High gas with low mobility but efficient against late drops and big balls. A protos player cannot move up if he won a battle since no storm will be available + low mobility. If he lost he can no longer warp in HT because they will not have storm in time. Also the presence of ghost can both kill HT and immortals really quick.
In POV HT will be like carriers, only huk will used them from time to time. I admite that there must be change, but that removing the upgrade make the HT useless for along time.
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On March 11 2011 19:34 v3chr0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 18:02 Pheint wrote:On March 02 2011 04:20 Darneck wrote:
And also since you said it is the same for protoss but the other way around it means that a terran will be able to get 2 ghosts ready to emp from 1 barracks a lot quicker than a protoss can get 2 high templars ready to storm from 1 gateway. How? It takes 45 seconds to get Ghost ready to EMP with the energy upgrade, that's 2 in 90 seconds. 2 high temps from one gateway would take you around 94 seconds if my math is correct. (first templar is warped in, after 5 seconds it is there, and 40 seconds after it materializes, another is warped in. That means .5 seconds before the second high templar becomes virtually corporeal (oxymoronic i know), the first is ready to storm, and 44.5 seconds later the second would be able to storm)). That's a relatively similar timeframe. It's not about having a similiar time frame. The High Templar is SUPPOSED to be better than the Ghost. High Templar require a larger investment, and 2 upgrades to be as efficient enough to pay for themselves, because they cannot retreat well - they usually die or merge. Warp gates provide the mobility the High Templar lacks. Ghosts are very mobile and can benefit from the cloak upgrade and their own +25energy up to be at maximum effectiveness vs HT. HT are T3, Ghosts are T2 - they shouldn't be equal, they both have enough to counter each other, that should be fair and fine enough. Edit: Ravens also fill a huge void the Ghost lacks against the High Templar and are also T2... that sounds pretty damn fair. More people need to use Ravens, regardless of how bad they think they are.
Nobody is saying that Ghost should be as good as HT...
But why instead of making HT better you want him less skill-dependent?
Your arguments dont make any sense, if you want HT to be better then suggest Storm/Feedback/move speed buff, instead of making HT easier to use in terms of planning, position and strategy.
Iits not about balance but about mechanics.
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On March 11 2011 20:08 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 19:34 v3chr0 wrote:On March 11 2011 18:02 Pheint wrote:On March 02 2011 04:20 Darneck wrote:
And also since you said it is the same for protoss but the other way around it means that a terran will be able to get 2 ghosts ready to emp from 1 barracks a lot quicker than a protoss can get 2 high templars ready to storm from 1 gateway. How? It takes 45 seconds to get Ghost ready to EMP with the energy upgrade, that's 2 in 90 seconds. 2 high temps from one gateway would take you around 94 seconds if my math is correct. (first templar is warped in, after 5 seconds it is there, and 40 seconds after it materializes, another is warped in. That means .5 seconds before the second high templar becomes virtually corporeal (oxymoronic i know), the first is ready to storm, and 44.5 seconds later the second would be able to storm)). That's a relatively similar timeframe. It's not about having a similiar time frame. The High Templar is SUPPOSED to be better than the Ghost. High Templar require a larger investment, and 2 upgrades to be as efficient enough to pay for themselves, because they cannot retreat well - they usually die or merge. Warp gates provide the mobility the High Templar lacks. Ghosts are very mobile and can benefit from the cloak upgrade and their own +25energy up to be at maximum effectiveness vs HT. HT are T3, Ghosts are T2 - they shouldn't be equal, they both have enough to counter each other, that should be fair and fine enough. Edit: Ravens also fill a huge void the Ghost lacks against the High Templar and are also T2... that sounds pretty damn fair. More people need to use Ravens, regardless of how bad they think they are. Nobody is saying that Ghost should be as good as HT... But why instead of making HT better you want him less skill-dependent? Your arguments dont make any sense, if you want HT to be better then suggest Storm/Feedback/move speed buff, instead of making HT easier to use in terms of planning, position and strategy. Iits not about balance but about mechanics.
They don't make sense, yet you can reply to them in a manner that would mean you understood them... that doesn't make sense, lol. Warp Gates are what make High Templar OP, not Khaydarin Amulet if anything, and should have their warp time increased to 10-15 seconds. Removing KA is far and beyond what should be done. I've posted a lot more elaborating on the topic, but like others before you - people keep reposting things that have already been talked about, and people such as myself have to repeat points that probably should've been added to OP.
Your thread is "Khaydarin Amulet analysis" yet there are a lot things left out of said analysis that fit together quite well in correspondence to the subject... It might just be me but that doesn't sound like a fair analysis, just how removing KA is not fair analysis of the current TvP situation.
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After the patch holding bio drops will be either impossible, till you dont have like 6-7 warp ready or your whole army has to go back. And mass muta will be funny to hold ^_^
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I still am hoping / beleive that blizzard will come to their senses and wont let this change go live. I beleive that KA will be tweaked in some way, but i cant beleive blizzard would purposely be trying to limit viable tech paths for a race in their game.
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It's also a great point that this wouldn't be as big of a hit if Archons weren't as decidedly mediocre as they are. In BW, some builds in PvZ only got the Templar Archive to build a few Archons and attack with Speed Zealot/Archon, and only get Storm/Amulet later on. Archons were just that good. In SC2, they're mediocre to bad by design. At the very least, in PvT they're atrociously bad.
On March 11 2011 20:17 cheesemaster wrote:
I still am hoping / beleive that blizzard will come to their senses and wont let this change go live. I beleive that KA will be tweaked in some way, but i cant beleive blizzard would purposely be trying to limit viable tech paths for a race in their game.
They have already done this though. They removed reapers from the early game, removed Terran cheese from the game by giving barracks the depot requirement, and removed Flux Vanes. It's definitely not beyond them to have this change go live.
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On March 11 2011 19:50 julius33 wrote:
IMO, terrans undervalue ghosts and ravens (turrets with they're ridiculous dps and HSMissile) as they are a potential solution to HTs, turrets mostly. As noone is using them now or hasnt even tried there is no point discussing though but im pretty sure there is big potential in them.
Generally, if they do carry through with the removal of KA, its going to be extremely tough to deal with any large drops/mutaballs.
Ravens against HTs..
Oh I don't know, feedback!
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EPT
