EPTOn March 11 2011 09:52 manicshock wrote:
They're nerfing ghosts btw, EMP only removes 100 energy in the most recent PTR.
They're nerfing ghosts btw, EMP only removes 100 energy in the most recent PTR.
100 energy is still an asston
Khaydarin amulet analysis - Page 56
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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
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Drunkasarous
United States96 Posts
100 energy is still an asston | ||
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Awatsu
173 Posts
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manicshock
Canada741 Posts
Any less and EMP would be useless. I could say 80 damage from storm is peanuts, but I'd also be dead wrong. It's designed in part around sentries but I think more so HTs. If I take away 100 energy from a HT, they would have to have 175+ energy for me to not nullify them or at least nullify storm. It'll make it so I have to double EMP/have more ghosts if I want to completely shut them down. | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 11 2011 09:52 manicshock wrote: They're nerfing ghosts btw, EMP only removes 100 energy in the most recent PTR. That doesn't change anything though, if an HT is still hit by an emp they won't have enough to storm and that's the same result as losing all their energy. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
People these days seem to change their opinions quite frequently. | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On March 11 2011 10:01 manicshock wrote: Any less and EMP would be useless. I could say 80 damage from storm is peanuts, but I'd also be dead wrong. It's designed in part around sentries but I think more so HTs. If I take away 100 energy from a HT, they would have to have 175+ energy for me to not nullify them or at least nullify storm. It'll make it so I have to double EMP/have more ghosts if I want to completely shut them down. No, they would still be very useful. Terran players seem to have forgotten how good they had it with EMP for months. | ||
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manicshock
Canada741 Posts
On March 11 2011 10:01 Hierarch wrote: That doesn't change anything though, if an HT is still hit by an emp they won't have enough to storm and that's the same result as losing all their energy. Unless you have warp them in earlier like the nerf is meant to force you to. It gives you a chance to use HTs if you let them get enough energy. | ||
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manicshock
Canada741 Posts
On March 11 2011 10:02 Serpico wrote: No, they would still be very useful. Terran players seem to have forgotten how good they had it with EMP for months. Oh? Less energy = more ghosts and a lower thresh hold on making HTs immune to EMP or no ghosts. Protoss players seem to have forgotten how easy they've had it with feedback. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On March 11 2011 08:36 GagnarTheUnruly wrote: Not at all, I actuall think it's great that the outcome of the game comes down to 2-3 micro-intensive units. To use BW as an example, look at reavers, defilers, science vessels, arbiters, high templars... gas-expensive, highly vulnerable spellcasters that completely change the game even in very low numbers. They make the game exciting and if anything there aren't enough of those types of units in SC2. I think that HT/Ghost tension for example has the potential to become as exciting has science vessel/defiler tension. I'd agree, but that is not what amulet does. They aren't nerfing storm itself, which is the ability that creates the tension and is comparable to the units from SC:BW you mentioned. They are removing the ability to warp in storms without the opponent having a realistic chance of stopping it from going off. Again if this causes some imbalance, I'd personally rather want the MU balanced around not having instant storms anywhere. | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 11 2011 10:03 manicshock wrote: Unless you have warp them in earlier like the nerf is meant to force you to. It gives you a chance to use HTs if you let them get enough energy. When warping templar in, people aren't going to hide them in a corner and let them build up to 200 energy before using them, at most the 1st 3-4 templar will have more than 100 energy, and even then they need 175 to get a storm off after being emp'd | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On March 11 2011 10:14 Zarahtra wrote: I'd agree, but that is not what amulet does. They aren't nerfing storm itself, which is the ability that creates the tension and is comparable to the units from SC:BW you mentioned. They are removing the ability to warp in storms without the opponent having a realistic chance of stopping it from going off. Again if this causes some imbalance, I'd personally rather want the MU balanced around not having instant storms anywhere. Actually, relative to Defiler/Science Vessel, I think this nerf is more akin to removing Consume. | ||
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
High Templars are far from being the same as Ghosts and Infestors. They are a lot stronger, but lack self-defensive capabilities/mobility. High Templars role is not supposed to be tagging along in the back of your army, the risk of any nullification on all your templars far outweigh the benefits if there is no KA. The investment for HT goes beyond Ghost and Infestor tech, and they are much slower (~1.85spd), and have no defensive capabilities (vs. burrow and cloak). While we are researching storm, you can be getting cloak or burrow.... fair. (Cloak/Burrow are shared abilities, and also help your caster to nullify HTs - Z/T need to get their upgrades too, of course a HT with its upgrades > your caster with none) High Templars need to research their AoE, Ghosts and Infestors need to research their defensive abilities. Fair is fair. Ghosts/Infestors, being reinforced/streamed in like any Terran/Zerg unit is not as vulnerable as a Templar coming to reinforce (no KA, have to wait in a safe spot w/Templar). Ghosts can cloak, and do what San did: 1 by 1 let your Ghosts(or High Templar) go and nullify its counter part. Defensive/stealth abilities exist for Ghosts and Infestors BECAUSE you have to reinforce w/them from your production facility, and Ghosts/Infestors are a little weaker. But because of such, the potential to keep your Ghosts and Infestors safe far outweigh what a HT can do to remain safe while traveling. Instead of whining, I think Z/T need to ALWAYS get their caster upgrades should they choose to go for them, Protoss does and its a great investment. Leenock invested in burrow for Infestors during his games in GSL and they paid off greatly. What is not fair? We have to research Storm, and in turn, once we get the +25 energy, we can Storm right away. Terran can get moebius reactor, and by the time the Ghost can join the fight, he can be useful, same with Infestors. Zergs use Infestors to delay games allllllllllllllllllllllllllll the time, and maybe if more Zergs used them often we'd see how Zergs can destroy MMM while being on the 'losing side'. Terran use Ghosts to delay Protoss advances all the time. THE GAME IS FAIR. Perspective is key. T1 units are not supposed to work out forever vs. Tech. Some other units have to be used, it's obvious thats the case and Terran just cannot get a grip that MMM isn't 100% viable 25+ mins... how is that not reasonable? If your opponent goes for Tech, you have to also, of an equal degree. Ghosts and Infestor tech =/= Templar Tech, you need a little more. As Protoss takes a risk/investment to get them up to begin with. (Gateway to T3 is quite a jump) If Toss can get their tech that costs so much gas, along with Protoss units in general that require the most gas, your opponent could have used the same, if not more gas to go a tech route or an economic mass lower tier route. + Show Spoiler + If SCfOu had taken San's approach (mass expanding during defensive times) the game would have looked totally different. San was teching, yet SC was the one holding back - he should have been taking advantage of Protoss going for tech routes. Zealots and HTs vs Planetary's or even Orbitals isn't too effective. In the least, Sans play was not standard by any means, the only thing regular about his games were that Zealots and HTs were used, everything else was fairly new school, mass expoing, small army vs small army, massive amounts of scouting and all of that compiled with KA won him the game. He outplayed his opponent. San did the same thing every game, yet SC couldn't find his flaws, thats not Sans fault. Tier 1 units should be viable all game, but not without complications. These are the complications of going T1 all game, you still need tech to counter tech, especially if you are being outplayed. Everywhere you look, when concerned with KA there is a logic, reason, and fairness abound - there is nothing wrong with Storm, or the Amulet. Meta game is shifting, and players are losing their marbles. | ||
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HighQuality
United States56 Posts
If Starcraft 2 really was a game of "x beats y", we'd get more crappy games that consist of giant army blobs smashing into each other with no real structure to the actual armies. This is personally the reason why I enjoy players like MarineKing so much, because he understands that keeping his army lean is so much more cost-effective than just massing up blobs consisting of 8 different units. It's dumb that people decry such styles as boring, when it's actually the most dynamic. | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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Carbonthief
United States289 Posts
Furthermore, if you still wanted to compare them in this way, you would need to take into account that Infestors and Ghosts come with their main abilities. Psi Storm on the other hand, must still be researched. And you should also factor in the length of teching, and the absurd feats of magic you have to pull off to stay alive to HT's without going collosus first. | ||
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KnightFix
United States29 Posts
Make Psi Storm cost 80 energy or a little higher This way when you warp in a high templar, it has to wait a little bit to cast, thus giving the newbs more time to try and kill a high templar waiting to cast psi storm But in my opinion, just bring back the amulet, and let players ADAPT Whining is getting out of hand in games in todays market for gaming. If people learned that the game can get tough, and instead of quiting at the first sight of trouble tried to get around it, wed be in a better place. Of course all the pros quit when they lost their first match. I mean, doesn't everyone? Point made, bring it back, don't turn the game into something it shouldn't be | ||
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Novembermike
United States102 Posts
Ghost: 2.25 speed, 100 hp, a decent attack and useful abilities at 25 and 75 energy. HT: 1.875 speed, 80 hp, no attack and a conditionally useful ability at 50 and a good ability at 75. HT are slower and have less HP, which means that they'll die pretty much any time you have to run, and they're much less useful at <75 energy than ghosts (or infestors, they have their own stuff). Ghosts also blend into a ball better since HT have a giant glowing cape thing. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On March 11 2011 11:07 v3chr0 wrote: High Templars in Starcraft 2 are hardly ever going to be used if they cannot warp-in and Storm, atleast within a few seconds. High Templars are far from being the same as Ghosts and Infestors. They are a lot stronger, but lack self-defensive capabilities/mobility. High Templars role is not supposed to be tagging along in the back of your army, the risk of any nullification on all your templars far outweigh the benefits if there is no KA. The investment for HT goes beyond Ghost and Infestor tech, and they are much slower (~1.85spd), and have no defensive capabilities (vs. burrow and cloak). While we are researching storm, you can be getting cloak or burrow.... fair. (Cloak/Burrow are shared abilities, and also help your caster to nullify HTs - Z/T need to get their upgrades too, of course a HT with its upgrades > your caster with none) High Templars need to research their AoE, Ghosts and Infestors need to research their defensive abilities. Fair is fair. Ghosts/Infestors, being reinforced/streamed in like any Terran/Zerg unit is not as vulnerable as a Templar coming to reinforce (no KA, have to wait in a safe spot w/Templar). Ghosts can cloak, and do what San did: 1 by 1 let your Ghosts(or High Templar) go and nullify its counter part. Defensive/stealth abilities exist for Ghosts and Infestors BECAUSE you have to reinforce w/them from your production facility, and Ghosts/Infestors are a little weaker. But because of such, the potential to keep your Ghosts and Infestors safe far outweigh what a HT can do to remain safe while traveling. Instead of whining, I think Z/T need to ALWAYS get their caster upgrades should they choose to go for them, Protoss does and its a great investment. Leenock invested in burrow for Infestors during his games in GSL and they paid off greatly. What is not fair? We have to research Storm, and in turn, once we get the +25 energy, we can Storm right away. Terran can get moebius reactor, and by the time the Ghost can join the fight, he can be useful, same with Infestors. Zergs use Infestors to delay games allllllllllllllllllllllllllll the time, and maybe if more Zergs used them often we'd see how Zergs can destroy MMM while being on the 'losing side'. Terran use Ghosts to delay Protoss advances all the time. THE GAME IS FAIR. Perspective is key. T1 units are not supposed to work out forever vs. Tech. Some other units have to be used, it's obvious thats the case and Terran just cannot get a grip that MMM isn't 100% viable 25+ mins... how is that not reasonable? If your opponent goes for Tech, you have to also, of an equal degree. Ghosts and Infestor tech =/= Templar Tech, you need a little more. As Protoss takes a risk/investment to get them up to begin with. (Gateway to T3 is quite a jump) If Toss can get their tech that costs so much gas, along with Protoss units in general that require the most gas, your opponent could have used the same, if not more gas to go a tech route or an economic mass lower tier route. + Show Spoiler + If SCfOu had taken San's approach (mass expanding during defensive times) the game would have looked totally different. San was teching, yet SC was the one holding back - he should have been taking advantage of Protoss going for tech routes. Zealots and HTs vs Planetary's or even Orbitals isn't too effective. In the least, Sans play was not standard by any means, the only thing regular about his games were that Zealots and HTs were used, everything else was fairly new school, mass expoing, small army vs small army, massive amounts of scouting and all of that compiled with KA won him the game. He outplayed his opponent. San did the same thing every game, yet SC couldn't find his flaws, thats not Sans fault. Tier 1 units should be viable all game, but not without complications. These are the complications of going T1 all game, you still need tech to counter tech, especially if you are being outplayed. Everywhere you look, when concerned with KA there is a logic, reason, and fairness abound - there is nothing wrong with Storm, or the Amulet. Meta game is shifting, and players are losing their marbles. this sums it up pretty well. i think KA is a separate issue from OPness of protoss' late game. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
There will never see dark swarm or an equivalent in sc2 ever and this makes me a little sad since the little bit of bw i know, i do know that dark swarm vs irradiate was a very very cool dynamic. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Same deal will be for SC2 when the amulet is nerfed...templar are just as powerful defensively as they are now, but you have to build them ahead of time at your expo with ur cannon flowers...just like brood war... Everyone seems so spoiled now that SC2 is out (including myself sometimes  ). I don't think people ever complained in SC1, "i can't have templars everywhere i want on the map wawawa." As a matter of fact...a lot of times a protoss would have a gateway at a faraway expansion just for the sole purpose of building a templar or DT there in lategame...pvz especially | ||
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