Khaydarin amulet analysis - Page 54

On March 11 2011 08:50 kcdc wrote:


This is plainly false. If your tanks and thors are getting owned by zealots, I suspect you're not using them well.

On March 11 2011 08:49 Dalavita wrote:


You heard it here first.

A one base allin against protoss proves that mech is viable.

On March 11 2011 08:44 Dalavita wrote:
Interesting that you mention that.

Thors/BCs/Tanks get owned by Protoss T1.

Funny how that works.

Also, the Terrans army was higher tech than T1. Ghosts, medivacs and ravens yo...

On March 11 2011 08:49 Dalavita wrote:


You heard it here first.

A one base allin against protoss proves that mech is viable.

I don't get why you mention storm against mech in the same sentence, and then respond with an earlygame push when I say that mech gets killed by t1 units which according to you, is a retarded and shouldn't happen.

On March 11 2011 08:53 freetgy wrote:


First of all put 1-2 emps to these composition and they absolutely rape protoss.

Thor:
only chargelots work decently
If Protoss T1 was so good, Thor pushes wouldn't be that effectiv.

BC:
Voidray the only costeffective Unit that Protoss has (not T1)

Tanks:
in decent numbers/backup not possible.

On March 11 2011 08:54 Tingles wrote:
You can't argue T1 gateway owns Tanks / BC's / THORS, then when i give you a scenario where it negates the thor part, you claim that just cause it's an all in, it's irrelevant?
Effective push is effective.

On March 11 2011 08:42 Dalavita wrote:


Getting 2-3 factories with tech labs and enough siege tanks with siege tech will cost up to 600-1000 gas alone and is not something you transition to fast, that's not even considering that you need a different set of upgrades for your bio and tanks.

Also, what you're talking about is biomech, which I will always advocate against protoss, and not full mech, which is what's crap against chargelot+immortal spam.

Sans chargelots were doing fine considering they had no other backup and their only goal was to tank for the templars. When bio gets to a critical number is when they start dying tho, and it's not like his focus was on the chargelots, i.e him having an equal amount of chargelots in comparison to SCs bio. They were just there to survive long enough for him to get storms off and clean up the rest.

On March 11 2011 08:56 Dalavita wrote:


The Thor push depends on having a thor stomp down the force field and having enough SCVs repairing it to outdamage the DPS of the low amount of units in an earlygame situation.

This does not speak to how well mech performs against protoss, it's an allin that abuses a specific earlygame weakness and a specific strength of an earlygame thor push. No more, no less.

Stalkers work fine against BCs, if you got blink and blink micro, they're exceptional against BCs.

Chargelots rip Thors apart, and unless you got 15+ tanks, the chargelots are going to rip the tanks apart as well, especially if you spread them out beforehand. Hellions take forever to kill them and their splash isn't even to efficient because of charge making all the zealots auto surround and spread out. If you're going mech, you will need to go biomech with an emphasis on bio.



Marines own void rays, yet void ray rushes can still end games if you catch them off guard with it and they're in low enough number without proper upgrades.

On March 11 2011 08:59 Hierarch wrote:


Even at 600-1000 more gas it would still even out the investments made by the players gas wise, HT tech with the amulet upgrade costs a ton of gas and time as well, and ya I agree that biomech would have helped. On the note of upgrades, you have to build an armory anyway to get 3/3 bio, if sC had an inkling of a transition in his head instead of, as iNcontroL puts it, "Taking the Caveman approach" where he just build stuff and threw it at his opponent and hoped his opponent died, sC could have been upgrading vehicle weapons since you'd just need the tanks to be sieged in the back taking potshots. It also allows terran's to slow push expansions and forces the protoss to respond.

On March 11 2011 08:51 Dalavita wrote:


If your zealots aren't cost effectively trading against a full mech army that takes way longer to replenish, you're not using your zealots well.

On March 11 2011 09:03 v3chr0 wrote:
You describe the exact problem with Terrans right now. You think you can just make 1 unit vs another type of unit. You keep speaking of X beating Y and etc... It's not about that. When you use units in conjunction with eachother the whole X beats Y thing changes dramatically.

Yea, don't get only Thors vs Chargelots, thats stupid. Any mech needs bio, many Terrans aren't aware of this for some odd reason. Every other Race needs their staple units with tech, Terran do to.

On March 11 2011 07:15 Fanatic-Templar wrote:

SC won with pure bio against a Protoss with warp-in Templar and more active bases. One would have expected San to win even in normal circumstances, and yet you're claiming it was imbalanced in his favour?

On March 11 2011 09:02 Dalavita wrote:


Like I said, I have nothing against biomech with 3-4 tanks and possibly some thors if he got phoenixes in the back taking shots while the Terran abuses their range and micros back slowly with his bio army. What does not work against protoss is full mech. Maybe I need to put more emphasis on this.

Also, I'm mentioning upgrades because vehicle upgrades are separate compared to marine upgrades, unlike colossi/gateway unit upgrades. My point was to illustrate that going mech eats into your bio size and tech, where the forge upgrades are the perfect example of upgrades that don't. So if you have 2/2 or 3/3 marines and marauders and want to transition to mech, you have to start all over again.

On March 11 2011 09:05 Victim wrote:


It doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Looking at things differently, San loses most of the large army battles and while his harass does damage, it doesn't really pin the terran army down - and then still ends up with more bases.

Why can he take so many expansions and hold on them reasonably well despite losing the battles? It's not a dominant army providing map control. It's not really fast or mobile forces outmaneuvering a slow army to enable mass expansion - especially since SC seemed to more absorb harassment losses for better or worse instead of getting pulled back.

What exactly was enabling San's mass expansions in pretty much all of the games if not amulet?

On March 11 2011 09:03 kcdc wrote:
I don't really care to argue with you because it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about, but for anyone else reading this, I'll explain.

Zealots are good against tanks in the open at low food counts where they can get in quickly and the splash doesn't matter much. At larger food battles, zealots clump and take massive front-loaded damage before they ever get in range. A smart Terran also uses terrain and places buildings, marines and/or hellions as a buffer to further slow the zealots' approach. So yes, in a unit tester where you pit 12 zealots against 4 tanks, it's going to look like zealots are good against tanks. But in a game, Terran positions his first tanks well and uses buildings and bunkers to defend until his tank count reaches a critical mass where they crush zealots for cost.

Thors are a similar story. Zealots are good against them in small numbers on an open field, but when you have a lot of thors, there's not enough surface area for the zealots to do damage, and the massive HP pool of the thors takes forever to grind down. If you go for zealots against a big thor ball, you lose hands down.

FWIW, I'm Top 200 on NA ladder and have played this out countless times. I'm not pro-level, but I have a pretty solid understanding of the game.

On March 11 2011 09:07 Hierarch wrote:
I understand your stances on mech and biomech, but do you agree that KA should be taken out because players don't want to transition out of pure MMM?

Even unupgraded tanks do a good amount of damage in siege mode, and the way you'd use them means they really wouldn't need armor upgrades so it would be more like starting halfway over on upgrades, which you can preemptively start earlier in the matchup since the armory usually isn't doing anything anyway.

On March 11 2011 09:11 Dalavita wrote:


I'm pretty sure your situation is exactly how the Squirtle/MVP game went.

Like with any other matchup where you sacrifice low tech units to kill off the stronger units that are harder to replenish, you will end up losing battles, but chargelots are insanely effective against all the mech that terran has. Smart placement of tanks does a lot yes, but so does pre-spreading your units out and preventing them from balling up until the engagement.

Mech is strong if you reach the 200/200 deathball, but a protoss on 5base with 10-15+ gateways will be able to replenish his units in a ratio that's way faster than you can replenish yours. He will wear you down to the point where your tanks and thors become a lot less effective.

On March 11 2011 09:14 Parodoxx wrote:
I think everyone can agree that EMP does more DPS to protoss then storm does to terran, emp can not be dodged and is AOE, it also takes away the usefulness of casters (FF, immortals, and HT)

Now a great deal of the argument has to deal with Ps ability to deal with T drops, If T added a Ghost to their army with the same upgrade that P has to get (energy) would terran drops not require a lot larger of a pull from P then the cost of the drop from T?

My point is that maybe terran just needs to play better, EMP our HT on warp in and continue to wrack up the ridiculously cost effective drop. If this is beyond your skill level then get better before you QQ. Ghost might cost more per unit then HT but they can be got quicker deal more DPS in TVP, and still have cloak and nuke to stop protoss ability to get back into their base.

L2P Terran