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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 11 2011 06:39 B00ts wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 05:50 MrCon wrote:
The San vs sC showed exactly the amulet problem imo.
San just mass expanded everywhere (sometime near the terran for no reason, as he had near bases still free), put 2 or 3 canon/base, then just relied on a round of warp for defense.
The fact that 6 zealots and 4 ht just warped (20 food) where able to handle 60 (sometime a lot more than that) food armies was just shocking. Being able to do it once because you saved a lot of energy on your templar is normal, being able to just count on that for defense of a 160 food terran seems a little too much powerful. Yes, the terran wins the engagement. He has zero energy left on his medivacs, zero energy left on ghost, and all his army in red because of storm and stim. Then the next 3-4 templars will rack 30 kills, no amount of micro will save you from that. Obviously blue helions would have been a lot better than bio here.
Templars are not the problem, being able to warp them storm ready is. And San exploited that just perfectly, mass expanding everywhere after amulet research, making zero army, just warping where he is attacked and building his army like that with the remains.
But we'll see, perhaps terrans will find a way to play against that, it's very possible, until that, amulet seems really brutal. If anything this game illustrated that this mechanic is in fact not broken. These were some of the closest and best games on GOM yet. Two of them came down to the last few units / bases. If this mechanic was as imba as people make it out to be then these games would have been ridiculously one sided. But they weren't. And not only were they not one sided, they were soooooooooo good, and soooooo close. Not only that, sc for the majority of the time did not micro out of the storms and took full damage. Imagine if had actually micro'd out of the storms every single time? San played great and was all over the map, sc played well, but micro mistake after micro mistake cost him. I can't believe people would use those amazing games as "proof amulet is imba". If anything, it proves the opposite. That play style is awesome, is epic, is fail, and Blizz wants to kill it???? What?????
Are you watching the same games as we did? there was no micro'ing, storm goes down, marines die, then you try to split units (which SC did a lot of to try to reduce storm damage) but zealots are in the way to prevent too much kiting. I think you're kidding yourself if you think sc didn't micro out of storms.
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he did micro out of some, but there were definitely a lot that he stood in and didn't move at all. i believe artosis and tasteless were commenting about this as well.
i mean there would be an argument that it was overpowered if something had happened like sC played flawlessly and was clearly way better than san but still got crushed by warpin storm. i think its pretty clear that this didn't happen, they were evenly matched back-and-forth games.
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On March 11 2011 06:39 B00ts wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 05:50 MrCon wrote:
The San vs sC showed exactly the amulet problem imo.
San just mass expanded everywhere (sometime near the terran for no reason, as he had near bases still free), put 2 or 3 canon/base, then just relied on a round of warp for defense.
The fact that 6 zealots and 4 ht just warped (20 food) where able to handle 60 (sometime a lot more than that) food armies was just shocking. Being able to do it once because you saved a lot of energy on your templar is normal, being able to just count on that for defense of a 160 food terran seems a little too much powerful. Yes, the terran wins the engagement. He has zero energy left on his medivacs, zero energy left on ghost, and all his army in red because of storm and stim. Then the next 3-4 templars will rack 30 kills, no amount of micro will save you from that. Obviously blue helions would have been a lot better than bio here.
Templars are not the problem, being able to warp them storm ready is. And San exploited that just perfectly, mass expanding everywhere after amulet research, making zero army, just warping where he is attacked and building his army like that with the remains.
But we'll see, perhaps terrans will find a way to play against that, it's very possible, until that, amulet seems really brutal. If anything this game illustrated that this mechanic is in fact not broken. These were some of the closest and best games on GOM yet. Two of them came down to the last few units / bases. If this mechanic was as imba as people make it out to be then these games would have been ridiculously one sided. But they weren't. And not only were they not one sided, they were soooooooooo good, and soooooo close. Not only that, sc for the majority of the time did not micro out of the storms and took full damage. Imagine if had actually micro'd out of the storms every single time? San played great and was all over the map, sc played well, but micro mistake after micro mistake cost him. I can't believe people would use those amazing games as "proof amulet is imba". If anything, it proves the opposite. That play style is awesome, is epic, is fail, and Blizz wants to kill it???? What?????
So your definition of epic game is that when one player is planning attack for couple of minutes, exactly with what/when/where and all that stuff, that literally any player with good macro but ~gold level of decisions making, planning and strategy can win?
I do understand why people think that warp-in is cool mechanic, I do think its coolest mechanic in game myself, but that itself doesnt make games epic.
Epic games are about something different than 3+ minutes of decisions including positioning, composition etc. being beaten by 5 second "click fest".
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On March 11 2011 06:51 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 06:39 B00ts wrote:On March 11 2011 05:50 MrCon wrote:
The San vs sC showed exactly the amulet problem imo.
San just mass expanded everywhere (sometime near the terran for no reason, as he had near bases still free), put 2 or 3 canon/base, then just relied on a round of warp for defense.
The fact that 6 zealots and 4 ht just warped (20 food) where able to handle 60 (sometime a lot more than that) food armies was just shocking. Being able to do it once because you saved a lot of energy on your templar is normal, being able to just count on that for defense of a 160 food terran seems a little too much powerful. Yes, the terran wins the engagement. He has zero energy left on his medivacs, zero energy left on ghost, and all his army in red because of storm and stim. Then the next 3-4 templars will rack 30 kills, no amount of micro will save you from that. Obviously blue helions would have been a lot better than bio here.
Templars are not the problem, being able to warp them storm ready is. And San exploited that just perfectly, mass expanding everywhere after amulet research, making zero army, just warping where he is attacked and building his army like that with the remains.
But we'll see, perhaps terrans will find a way to play against that, it's very possible, until that, amulet seems really brutal. If anything this game illustrated that this mechanic is in fact not broken. These were some of the closest and best games on GOM yet. Two of them came down to the last few units / bases. If this mechanic was as imba as people make it out to be then these games would have been ridiculously one sided. But they weren't. And not only were they not one sided, they were soooooooooo good, and soooooo close. Not only that, sc for the majority of the time did not micro out of the storms and took full damage. Imagine if had actually micro'd out of the storms every single time? San played great and was all over the map, sc played well, but micro mistake after micro mistake cost him. I can't believe people would use those amazing games as "proof amulet is imba". If anything, it proves the opposite. That play style is awesome, is epic, is fail, and Blizz wants to kill it???? What????? So your definition of epic game is that when one player is planning attack for couple of minutes, exactly with what/when/where and all that stuff, that literally any player with good macro but ~gold level of decisions making, planning and strategy can win?.
this is either complete exaggeration or stupidity, no one with gold level strategy is going to beat any pro anytime soon. posting things like this doesn't really add anything to the discussion at all.
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K-Amulet is fine, and perfectly balanced,
Watching the sC vs sanZenith game 1 thing came up to my head so dargn quickly, why is sC not going MECH seeing this ?
Not so sure HT would have done we'll against siege tanks, DUH...
There's a counter to everything, and you just dont warp '' free '' psi-storm, they cost 150 gaz each, must have a solid solid economy to warp them one after the other.
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On March 11 2011 07:04 aZoX wrote:
K-Amulet is fine, and perfectly balanced,
Watching the sC vs sanZenith game 1 thing came up to my head so dargn quickly, why is sC not going MECH seeing this ?
Not so sure HT would have done we'll against siege tanks, DUH...
There's a counter to everything, and you just dont warp '' free '' psi-storm, they cost 150 gaz each, must have a solid solid economy to warp them one after the other.
Because mech is shit against protoss.
It doesn't work, and especially transitioning to mech from a bio build takes a stupid amount of effort.
Chargelots rip mech apart.
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I think its been completely useless to keep arguing about this for the last 10 pages of this thread (at minimum). Terran are convinced that the complete removal of KA is not a big deal, whereas most protoss are at this point completely exasperated from attempting to explain why a complete KA removal is not a good thing.
It's ok, if KA is removed I seriously doubt anyone will use HT in any serious manner (no point spending 150 gas on a unit that *maybe* will pay for itself in 1 minute when you can wait for the extra 50 gas and get a unit that can be blindly countered but at least deals damage right away).
In the meantime, I'm not going to lie, it is completely exhausting to have to hear 500 people who probably don't play protoss enough to know how the race works theorycraft. If you're going to complain that it takes 0 thought and 0 skill to warp in an HT and storm a set of units that can (if the player is not dumb) be stimmed out of the storm, great. If you're going to complain that warp-in storm on your mineral line is the reason for this nerf, even more awesome.
I'm pretty confident every other protoss out there is feeling the exact same way as me. I feel for you brotoss, I sincerely do.
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On March 11 2011 06:51 Sek-Kuar wrote:
So your definition of epic game is that when one player is planning attack for couple of minutes, exactly with what/when/where and all that stuff, that literally any player with good macro but ~gold level of decisions making, planning and strategy can win?
I do understand why people think that warp-in is cool mechanic, I do think its coolest mechanic in game myself, but that itself doesnt make games epic.
Epic games are about something different than 3+ minutes of decisions including positioning, composition etc. being beaten by 5 second "click fest".
So, you actually think sC outplayed San pretty hard, and only lost the games he lost due to imbalanced KA still being in the game? Am I reading this correctly?
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On March 11 2011 04:07 proot wrote:
No, it still seems smart because it proves everything that's wrong with amulet.
SC won with pure bio against a Protoss with warp-in Templar and more active bases. One would have expected San to win even in normal circumstances, and yet you're claiming it was imbalanced in his favour?
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On March 11 2011 07:12 jaiiiii wrote:
I think its been completely useless to keep arguing about this for the last 10 pages of this thread (at minimum). Terran are convinced that the complete removal of KA is not a big deal, whereas most protoss are at this point completely exasperated from attempting to explain why a complete KA removal is not a good thing.
It's ok, if KA is removed I seriously doubt anyone will use HT in any serious manner (no point spending 150 gas on a unit that *maybe* will pay for itself in 1 minute when you can wait for the extra 50 gas and get a unit that can be blindly countered but at least deals damage right away).
In the meantime, I'm not going to lie, it is completely exhausting to have to hear 500 people who probably don't play protoss enough to know how the race works theorycraft. If you're going to complain that it takes 0 thought and 0 skill to warp in an HT and storm a set of units that can (if the player is not dumb) be stimmed out of the storm, great. If you're going to complain that warp-in storm on your mineral line is the reason for this nerf, even more awesome.
I'm pretty confident every other protoss out there is feeling the exact same way as me. I feel for you brotoss, I sincerely do.
Again. It's not that you can't dodge the first storm, it's that the following two or three will rip into your bioball, which by itself is all right, the issue is when those templars were literally warped in from nowhere as a reflex reaction with zero planning or strategy behind it, and end up demolishing your entire army.
I agree that KA shouldn't be removed, but have its +energy lessened, so you can't instantly warpin HTs and storm straight away, but can still use their storm ability sooner after warping in.
+10-+15 energy would be great, but I'm not blizzard, and so just let them do their thing and hope it ends up being balanced 
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On March 11 2011 07:04 aZoX wrote:
K-Amulet is fine, and perfectly balanced,
Watching the sC vs sanZenith game 1 thing came up to my head so dargn quickly, why is sC not going MECH seeing this ?
Not so sure HT would have done we'll against siege tanks, DUH...
There's a counter to everything, and you just dont warp '' free '' psi-storm, they cost 150 gaz each, must have a solid solid economy to warp them one after the other.
Lets assume that KA really is balanced:
Whats your point? How does balance prove that it is good mechanic? How does balance justify that it requires much lower level of planning, strategy, decision making, scouting, positioning and understanding game in general?
What do you exactly think that balance proves?
There are like milion ways how to make game perfectly or almost perfectly balanced, but not every single of them is correct in RTS sense. Balance means nothing when you ignores mechanics. Mechanics are more important, balance comes after that.
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On March 11 2011 07:17 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Whats your point? How does balance prove that it is good mechanic? How does balance justify that it requires much lower level of planning, strategy, decision making, scouting, positioning and understanding game in general?
yeah cause getting warp-in storms is an easy cake...
you talk like transitioning into Warp-in storm is something that can be done without taking risks.
Where is the risk taking by the terran player? (during Early until lategame before Warp-in Storms are out?)
where is the planning? decision making?
What makes Terran transitioning from Bio? How can protoss force that? there is nothing that does this! This makes Bio play the most straight forward gameplay that exists in the whole game.
All i see is that (mostlikly) Terrans want that their Bio works against HT too so it works against everything Protoss has.
Saying mech doesn't work is a bullshit statement, if you only play bio sure it doesn't.
there are tons of pro games that prove otherwise.
The only thing i see is Players that hate to lose momentum, cause their playstyle (using low hp, high mobile units) gets countered and thus are not left with a gameplan.
And still even with storms Bio does quite fine if microed properly as already provided with replays here.
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On March 11 2011 07:24 freetgy wrote:
there are tons of pro games that prove otherwise.
Squirtle vs MVP being the prime example.
Mech is currently crap against Protoss. People need to stop bumming it because Artosis is theorycrafting about the future metagame.
On the contrary, people need to stop telling Terran to go mech against protoss, it's about on the level of telling zerg to "Lol nydus some more noob".
It can work sometimes, but it's suicide more often than not.
On March 11 2011 07:24 freetgy wrote:
Where is the risk taking by the terran player? (during Early until lategame before Warp-in Storms are out?)
where is the planning? decision making?
Killing Protoss before they get their deathball is the risktaking during earlygame.
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On March 11 2011 07:24 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 07:17 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Whats your point? How does balance prove that it is good mechanic? How does balance justify that it requires much lower level of planning, strategy, decision making, scouting, positioning and understanding game in general?
yeah cause getting warp-in storms is an easy cake... you talk like transitioning into Warp-in storm is something that can be done without taking risks. Where is the risk taking by the terran player? (during Early until lategame before Warp-in Storms are out?) where is the planning? decision making? What makes Terran transitioning from Bio? How can protoss force that? there is nothing that does this! This makes Bio play the most straight forward gameplay that exists in the whole game. All i see is that (mostlikly) Terrans want that their Bio works against HT too so it works against everything Protoss has. Saying mech doesn't work is a bullshit statement, if you only play bio sure it doesn't. there are tons of pro games that prove otherwise. The only thing i see is Players that hate to lose momentum, cause their playstyle (using low hp, high mobile units) gets countered and thus are not left with a gameplan. And still even with storms Bio does quite fine if microed properly as already provided with replays here.
As always you once again prove you total lack of understanding to this game.
What you are talking (or better say theorycrafting) about is balance. What Im talking about are mechanic. Its not the same thing.
balance =/= mechanics
Actually:
balance < mechanics.
The point is that when Protoss sees attack coming, he might be ok reacting 5 sec before, while Terrans and Zergs requires 60, 90 or sometimes even 120 seconds of planning, strategy and decisions making to do same.
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Yeah and thats how the Protoss Race works...ask Blizzard to remove warpgates if that is such a problem for you.
Your problem is neither storm or amulet, it is the ability to decide on the spot what unit is the better one but Protoss lives and dies with this advantage.
every protoss would agree if colossus would get nerfed, cause that unit isn't well thought out, but Storm no.
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On March 11 2011 07:43 freetgy wrote:
Yeah and thats how the Protoss Race works...ask Blizzard to remove warpgates if that is such a problem for you.
Your problem is neither storm or amulet, it is the ability to decide on the spot what unit is the better one but Protoss lives and dies with this advantage.
Amulet and warp gate synergy is to strong. It's an issue exclusive to endgame templars.
The game would be way easier to balance without warp gates, but I really like the mechanic and prefer it to remain, some things however need tweaking.
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The matches between San and SC proved to me that KA needs to stay in the game as it is currently is or only very slightly nerfed. Assuming that these players are at equal skill level, here's how the games would've played out with and without amulet:
With amulet -- The match goes 3-1 in favor of protoss with hard fought, very long games emphasizing extreme macro and micro play. Although T is able to continually able to maintain a superior army on fewer bases than P, he can never make a killing blow because warp in storms save P by the skin of his teeth.
Without amulet -- The match goes 3-0 in favor of terran, with protoss holding on until T eventually is able to have enough marauders off 2-3 bases to weather the storms that are present, destroy Ps standing army, and have enough marauders to begin pushing the main. P can hold on, but stands no chance against T lategame.
In every single game of that match you can identify the point that P would've lost without amulet. What this means, ironically, is that HT is NOT STABLE AGAINST BIO without KA. To win, San would've had to switch very early in the game to robo. If this is where we want PvT to be at, then a KA nerf is a good idea. Otherwise, I think this match provided very strong evidence that warp in storms are basically necessary for HT to be a viable tech in PvT.
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On March 11 2011 07:43 freetgy wrote:
Yeah and thats how the Protoss Race works...ask Blizzard to remove warpgates if that is such a problem for you.
Your problem is neither storm or amulet.
Blizzard is not going to do anything with Warp-In in regular patches, at least Im sure about it. So this is all I can do.
It shouldnt be just my wish anyway, Warp-In is the only reason why Gateway units are so weak. If Protoss would have to travel with their units across map like all other have, then there would be no problem making them cost effective.
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I do wonder if Sek-Kuar is as outspoken against other mechanics in this game that make certain situations much easier for one race to resolve, while other races might require complex decision-making in order to deal with them.
Because god knows, there's a lot of stuff like this in SC2.
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On March 11 2011 07:46 Dalavita wrote:
Amulet and warp gate synergy is to strong.
it definitly is strong, no misundertanding there, but it balances out the weaknesses on Protoss Design.
And unless those things get sorted out you will see Protoss player raging cause imbalance in other parts of the game will definitly accur.
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EPT
