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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 11 2011 07:50 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 07:46 Dalavita wrote:
Amulet and warp gate synergy is to strong. it definitly is strong, no misundertanding there, but it balances out the weaknesses on Protoss Design. And unless those things get sorted out you will see Protoss player raging cause imbalance in other parts of the game will definitly accur.
Like I said, I think the change is overdone, the nerf was needed, but it should be changed to a +15 energy or something, so there is some planning required for HTs, and that you won't be able to insta storm after warpin.
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On March 11 2011 07:12 jaiiiii wrote:
It's ok, if KA is removed I seriously doubt anyone will use HT in any serious manner (no point spending 150 gas on a unit that *maybe* will pay for itself in 1 minute when you can wait for the extra 50 gas and get a unit that can be blindly countered but at least deals damage right away).
Yes you could spend 250 extra minerals and 50 extra gas on unit that takes 75 seconds to build, then has to walk to the battlefield.
OR You could warp in a unit anywhere you have a power field, that takes 45 seconds to build then have enough energy to storm for 250 less minerals and 50 less gas.
Hmm I can definitely see why no one would ever use the second one, it seems totally stupid.
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since the former can constantly attack after building, yeah it is totaly stupid.
Also Colossus Sentry has way better synergies, but i guess Forcefields are the next thing to get nerfed
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i doubt it, they will re introduce amulet after ht totally disappeared anyways
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On March 11 2011 08:01 Kazang wrote:
Yes you could spend 250 extra minerals and 50 extra gas on unit that takes 75 seconds to build, then has to walk to the battlefield.
OR You could warp in a unit anywhere you have a power field, that takes 45 seconds to build then have enough energy to storm for 250 less minerals and 50 less gas.
Hmm I can definitely see why no one would ever use the second one, it seems totally stupid.
One could note that the more expensive, slower-building unit cannot be hurt while building (obviously enough), as opposed to the cheaper unit, which is slow, squishy, and therefore vulnerable to any amount of nastiness while building up energy. In particular, it can be hit by its counter without ever doing anything.
Also, one could make the argument that the more expensive, beefier unit does damage much more consistently, doesn't do friendly fire, and synergizes much better with other Protoss units. It also does relatively well versus almost any ground unit, not just large groups of weak infantry; finally, it features rapidly increasing returns, with a very, very potent critical mass.
But why would one take note of all this, when there is an argumentative axe to be ground?
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On March 11 2011 08:01 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 07:12 jaiiiii wrote:
It's ok, if KA is removed I seriously doubt anyone will use HT in any serious manner (no point spending 150 gas on a unit that *maybe* will pay for itself in 1 minute when you can wait for the extra 50 gas and get a unit that can be blindly countered but at least deals damage right away). Yes you could spend 250 extra minerals and 50 extra gas on unit that takes 75 seconds to build, then has to walk to the battlefield. OR You could warp in a unit anywhere you have a power field, that takes 45 seconds to build then have enough energy to storm for 250 less minerals and 50 less gas. Hmm I can definitely see why no one would ever use the second one, it seems totally stupid.
Maybe because the first one does more damage consistently?
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On March 11 2011 07:47 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
The matches between San and SC proved to me that KA needs to stay in the game as it is currently is or only very slightly nerfed. Assuming that these players are at equal skill level, here's how the games would've played out with and without amulet:
With amulet -- The match goes 3-1 in favor of protoss with hard fought, very long games emphasizing extreme macro and micro play. Although T is able to continually able to maintain a superior army on fewer bases than P, he can never make a killing blow because warp in storms save P by the skin of his teeth.
Without amulet -- The match goes 3-0 in favor of terran, with protoss holding on until T eventually is able to have enough marauders off 2-3 bases to weather the storms that are present, destroy Ps standing army, and have enough marauders to begin pushing the main. P can hold on, but stands no chance against T lategame.
In every single game of that match you can identify the point that P would've lost without amulet. What this means, ironically, is that HT is NOT STABLE AGAINST BIO without KA. To win, San would've had to switch very early in the game to robo. If this is where we want PvT to be at, then a KA nerf is a good idea. Otherwise, I think this match provided very strong evidence that warp in storms are basically necessary for HT to be a viable tech in PvT.
Doesn't the bolded line sound a bit stupid to you? Do you really feel 1-2 units should be able to basically win a lost game? I'd rather take a KA nerf aswell as a terran nerf than have the MU revolve around terran winning the battles but consistently loosing the whole army due to 1-2 units.
But yeah, still think removing KA is wrong, just nerf it down to +10-20(basically just so the terran can actually respond to the warped-in ht before getting slaughtered).
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On March 11 2011 07:07 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 07:04 aZoX wrote:
K-Amulet is fine, and perfectly balanced,
Watching the sC vs sanZenith game 1 thing came up to my head so dargn quickly, why is sC not going MECH seeing this ?
Not so sure HT would have done we'll against siege tanks, DUH...
There's a counter to everything, and you just dont warp '' free '' psi-storm, they cost 150 gaz each, must have a solid solid economy to warp them one after the other. Because mech is shit against protoss. It doesn't work, and especially transitioning to mech from a bio build takes a stupid amount of effort. Chargelots rip mech apart.
It actually isn't that hard to get 2-3 factory siege tanks and mix them in with your mmm ball all it takes is swapping your 1st factory onto a tech lab and lifting a rax or two and building a couple factories onto those tech labs. Just 3-4 sieged tanks behind his mmm ball while he pushed could have done mass ive damage to the zealots as the bio ball ran away not getting hit at all by the zealots and the tanks can snipe templar off as they try and storm. It's not like sC was strapped for gas, he didn't even take the two at his last expo on terminus or shakuras.
Another point to mention that people seem to be overlooking, is how poorly those zealots truly did, they were basically free minerals thrown at sC to stall while san's probes mined more gas, and archons were even more of a joke, Artosis put it best when describing their roles in that game "They're fluffy cotton balls."
My last point is that sC's army was being supported by half the worker count than san's army at the end games, it was like 30-40 workers for sC (+ mules) and san had 50-60.
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People arguing that the warp-in mechanic + High Templar, storm and KA is too much is just rediculous. By that logic, any unit being warped in can undergo the same critism the HT do. Terran Bio is NOT the top of the tier. If you're going to throw your t1-t2 army at someone going gateway and T3, its not going to be as easy as A-Moving or just making 2-3 types of units...
Protoss and Zerg have been going insane trying to find out strategies that dismantle Terran, because EVERYTHING Terran has is so strong and efficient. Yet, nobody complains about Terran anymore, and instead people are crying over High Templars with instant storms.
It didn't take 10 seconds to get the High Templar, It took tech buildies, and 2 upgrades. If someone is going for High Templar first, or even after Collosus, there is a good timing window for you to never allow the Toss to get High Templar, or tech, or whatever it is OR you could have done the same.
THIS IS HOW STARCRAFT/2 WORKS. YOU TAKE A RISK, IT PAYS OFF OR DOESN'T. YOU WANT TO STAY ON BIO FOR 40 MINUTES, YOU GET HARD COUNTERED. WHAT IS SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND!?
If I fucking risk my ass to get up High Templar, they better be able to severely injure or kill what it's supposed to Counter, not hang around in the back of my army waiting to be EMPd, Sniped, or just left behind after a retreat. SC2 isn't SC, and it's asymmetrical. Zerg and T have casters that hang around their army, Protoss have casters that use their energy and die or merge. High Templar are not mobile, the fact the tech takes so much time, and 2 upgrades fully supports why they can just be warped in.
You go High Templar to instill the same fear Seige Tanks do, "DO NOT ENGAGE ME, Or I'll prbly come out ahead" . If Zerg made just made Roach/Ling/Infestor for 25+ minutes vs. Storm, he'd probably get outplayed also, and rightfully so.
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they really need to look into the real root of the problem with p which is the coll. amulet is a very late game up and should as well be strong, but coll are a mid game unit that are so powerful they allow p to transition fairly smoothly into whatever they want late game. for example forcing vikings into templar.
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On March 11 2011 08:24 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 07:47 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
The matches between San and SC proved to me that KA needs to stay in the game as it is currently is or only very slightly nerfed. Assuming that these players are at equal skill level, here's how the games would've played out with and without amulet:
With amulet -- The match goes 3-1 in favor of protoss with hard fought, very long games emphasizing extreme macro and micro play. Although T is able to continually able to maintain a superior army on fewer bases than P, he can never make a killing blow because warp in storms save P by the skin of his teeth.
Without amulet -- The match goes 3-0 in favor of terran, with protoss holding on until T eventually is able to have enough marauders off 2-3 bases to weather the storms that are present, destroy Ps standing army, and have enough marauders to begin pushing the main. P can hold on, but stands no chance against T lategame.
In every single game of that match you can identify the point that P would've lost without amulet. What this means, ironically, is that HT is NOT STABLE AGAINST BIO without KA. To win, San would've had to switch very early in the game to robo. If this is where we want PvT to be at, then a KA nerf is a good idea. Otherwise, I think this match provided very strong evidence that warp in storms are basically necessary for HT to be a viable tech in PvT. Doesn't the bolded line sound a bit stupid to you? Do you really feel 1-2 units should be able to basically win a lost game? I'd rather take a KA nerf aswell as a terran nerf than have the MU revolve around terran winning the battles but consistently loosing the whole army due to 1-2 units. But yeah, still think removing KA is wrong, just nerf it down to +10-20(basically just so the terran can actually respond to the warped-in ht before getting slaughtered).
Not at all, I actuall think it's great that the outcome of the game comes down to 2-3 micro-intensive units.
To use BW as an example, look at reavers, defilers, science vessels, arbiters, high templars... gas-expensive, highly vulnerable spellcasters that completely change the game even in very low numbers. They make the game exciting and if anything there aren't enough of those types of units in SC2.
I think that HT/Ghost tension for example has the potential to become as exciting has science vessel/defiler tension.
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On March 11 2011 08:27 Hierarch wrote:
It actually isn't that hard to get 2-3 factory siege tanks and mix them in with your mmm ball all it takes is swapping your 1st factory onto a tech lab and lifting a rax or two and building a couple factories onto those tech labs. Just 3-4 sieged tanks behind his mmm ball while he pushed could have done mass ive damage to the zealots as the bio ball ran away not getting hit at all by the zealots and the tanks can snipe templar off as they try and storm. It's not like sC was strapped for gas, he didn't even take the two at his last expo on terminus or shakuras.
Another point to mention that people seem to be overlooking, is how poorly those zealots truly did, they were basically free minerals thrown at sC to stall while san's probes mined more gas, and archons were even more of a joke, Artosis put it best when describing their roles in that game "They're fluffy cotton balls."
My last point is that sC's army was being supported by half the worker count than san's army at the end games, it was like 30-40 workers for sC (+ mules) and san had 50-60.
Getting 2-3 factories with tech labs and enough siege tanks with siege tech will cost up to 600-1000 gas alone and is not something you transition to fast, that's not even considering that you need a different set of upgrades for your bio and tanks.
Also, what you're talking about is biomech, which I will always advocate against protoss, and not full mech, which is what's crap against chargelot+immortal spam.
Sans chargelots were doing fine considering they had no other backup and their only goal was to tank for the templars. When bio gets to a critical number is when they start dying tho, and it's not like his focus was on the chargelots, i.e him having an equal amount of chargelots in comparison to SCs bio. They were just there to survive long enough for him to get storms off and clean up the rest.
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On March 11 2011 08:30 v3chr0 wrote:
People arguing that the warp-in mechanic + High Templar, storm and KA is too much is just rediculous. By that logic, any unit being warped in can undergo the same critism the HT do. Terran Bio is NOT the top of the tier. If you're going to throw your t1-t2 army at someone going gateway and T3, its not going to be as easy as A-Moving or just making 2-3 types of units...
Protoss and Zerg have been going insane trying to find out strategies that dismantle Terran, because EVERYTHING Terran has is so strong and efficient. Yet, nobody complains about Terran anymore, and instead people are crying over High Templars with instant storms.
It didn't take 10 seconds to get the High Templar, It took tech buildies, and 2 upgrades. If someone is going for High Templar first, or even after Collosus, there is a good timing window for you to never allow the Toss to get High Templar, or tech, or whatever it is OR you could have done the same.
THIS IS HOW STARCRAFT/2 WORKS. YOU TAKE A RISK, IT PAYS OFF OR DOESN'T. YOU WANT TO STAY ON BIO FOR 40 MINUTES, YOU GET HARD COUNTERED. WHAT IS SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND!?
If I fucking risk my ass to get up High Templar, they better be able to severely injure or kill what it's supposed to Counter, not hang around in the back of my army waiting to be EMPd, Sniped, or just left behind after a retreat. SC2 isn't SC, and it's asymmetrical. Zerg and T have casters that hang around their army, Protoss have casters that use their energy and die or merge. High Templar are not mobile, the fact the tech takes so much time, and 2 upgrades fully supports why they can just be warped in.
You go High Templar to instill the same fear Seige Tanks do, "DO NOT ENGAGE ME, Or I'll prbly come out ahead" . If Zerg made just made Roach/Ling/Infestor for 25+ minutes vs. Storm, he'd probably get outplayed also, and rightfully so.
Was gonna say pretty much this. Not so agressive and less caps, but pretty much.
Don't fucking QQ when your T1 army gets owned late game T3 upgraded unit.
If thors / BC's / Tanks got owned by storm warp ins, we'd be having a different conversation.
Even with Storm, Bio balls are STILL ridiculously fast to replenish, cost effective and huuuuge DPS.
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On March 11 2011 08:43 Tingles wrote:
Was gonna say pretty much this. Not so agressive and less caps, but pretty much.
Don't fucking QQ when your T1 army gets owned late game T3 upgraded unit.
If thors / BC's / Tanks got owned by storm warp ins, we'd be having a different conversation.
Even with Storm, Bio balls are STILL ridiculously fast to replenish, cost effective and huuuuge DPS.
Interesting that you mention that.
Thors/BCs/Tanks get owned by Protoss T1.
Funny how that works.
Also, the Terrans army was higher tech than T1. Ghosts, medivacs and ravens yo...
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Storm is crappy against T if you warp in at 50 energy. Excepting the super-late game where you have everything, you either have storm of you have colossi. You don't have the gas for both tech unless you make it to the 5 base vs 5 base split-the-map stage of the game.
If you don't have AoE damage, you lose to bio at large food counts more or less without killing anything. There's not enough surface area for melee attacks, your zealots clump up and get kited before doing damage (even with charge and upgrades), stalkers suck vs MM, immortals aren't much better, and by this stage of the game, your sentries are even EMPed. When you get above 150 food, bio beats Protoss armies that lack AoE substantially without losses.
So if you tech storm over colossi in the mid-game, you're betting the game that you'll be able to land a few critical storms in each controntation. As it stands now, if T manages to EMPs your templar, you retreat and warp in more templar while losing a big chunk of your army for free to stim and conc shell. But you can stay in the game because you'll have more storms available soon. If you take out the amulet and start templar with 50 energy, getting EMPed is game-ending. You can't fight without storms, and you won't have new storms available until well after the game is lost.
Perhaps the Terran players will say that a good Protoss splits his templar and doesn't get them all EMPed. I'd counter that a good Terran, upon seeing templar tech, makes multiple ghosts and EMPs freaking everything in sight. Protoss still loses if they only get off 1 or 2 storms. It's really easy to EMP templar. I spend a lot of effort spreading my templar and staggering them into battle, and I'd say most of the storms I'm able to get off are warped in after the first round of templar are EMPed.
Now I get that in bio vs templar, T has to EMP templar in order to win a fight just like P has to land storms in order to win a fight. And if P can warp in at the battle to replace EMPed templar and immediately storm, it fails to reward a micro victory for the Terran player. But if you start templar at 50 energy, there's no way for P to get back in the game after being EMPed. If P wins the micro battle and lands his storms, T can stim and retreat with some losses and regroup with reinforcements at a planetary fortress. The game isn't over. On the other hand, if T wins that same micro battle, without any energy upgrade, P is powerless for ~60 seconds, and unlike Terran, P can't retreat well against the faster army. P will lose the game.
In the end, colossi tech was already a little better than templar tech. It's faster to get, isn't as risky against certain pushes, and is guaranteed damage even if T has vikings. Templar tech, as is, is good for army splitting, harass, and defending drops, but is already less stable than colossus tech. If you have to wait a minute before warping in templar and storming, templar tech won't even be a consideration. Against bio, you'll see colossi every game, all game long.
+15 energy would keep storm relevant, and would probably be more fair than the current +25.
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On March 11 2011 08:44 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 08:43 Tingles wrote:
If thors / BC's / Tanks got owned by storm warp ins, we'd be having a different conversation.
Even with Storm, Bio balls are STILL ridiculously fast to replenish, cost effective and huuuuge DPS.
Funny you mention that. Thors/BCs and tanks get owned by Protoss t1. Funny how that works.
lol... you're funny. What the hell are you talking about? Yea, if you run a Thor into a bunch of Chargelots...
Bio/Mech or even Mech with small bio support is devastating, especially versus T1.
You uh... need to support mech with bio if they are gateway heavy? Thats the way it works. Your input on this topic has been terrible.
Same way Protoss and Zerg need to have staple units w/their tech units. Terran is no different.
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On March 11 2011 08:46 v3chr0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 08:44 Dalavita wrote:On March 11 2011 08:43 Tingles wrote:
If thors / BC's / Tanks got owned by storm warp ins, we'd be having a different conversation.
Even with Storm, Bio balls are STILL ridiculously fast to replenish, cost effective and huuuuge DPS.
Funny you mention that. Thors/BCs and tanks get owned by Protoss t1. Funny how that works. lol... you're funny. What the hell are you talking about? Yea, if you run a Thor into a bunch of Chargelots... Bio/Mech or even Mech with small bio support is devastating, especially versus T1. You uh... need to support mech with bio if they are gateway heavy? Thats the way it works. Your input on this topic has been terrible.
It's you again, shoo off. Your arguments are hilariously bad that it's not even worth responding to them.
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On March 11 2011 08:44 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 08:43 Tingles wrote:
Was gonna say pretty much this. Not so agressive and less caps, but pretty much.
Don't fucking QQ when your T1 army gets owned late game T3 upgraded unit.
If thors / BC's / Tanks got owned by storm warp ins, we'd be having a different conversation.
Even with Storm, Bio balls are STILL ridiculously fast to replenish, cost effective and huuuuge DPS.
Interesting that you mention that. Thors/BCs/Tanks get owned by Protoss T1. Funny how that works. Also, the Terrans army was higher tech than T1. Ghosts, medivacs and ravens yo...
LOL, cause an early double thor marine push with SCV's is completely shit against gateway.
Dont' think so.
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On March 11 2011 08:48 Tingles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 08:44 Dalavita wrote:On March 11 2011 08:43 Tingles wrote:
Was gonna say pretty much this. Not so agressive and less caps, but pretty much.
Don't fucking QQ when your T1 army gets owned late game T3 upgraded unit.
If thors / BC's / Tanks got owned by storm warp ins, we'd be having a different conversation.
Even with Storm, Bio balls are STILL ridiculously fast to replenish, cost effective and huuuuge DPS.
Interesting that you mention that. Thors/BCs/Tanks get owned by Protoss T1. Funny how that works. Also, the Terrans army was higher tech than T1. Ghosts, medivacs and ravens yo... LOL, cause an early double thor marine push with SCV's is completely shit against gateway. Dont' think so.
You heard it here first.
A one base allin against protoss proves that mech is viable.
I don't get why you mention storm against mech in the same sentence, and then respond with an earlygame push when I say that mech gets killed by t1 units which according to you, is a retarded and shouldn't happen.
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On March 11 2011 08:44 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 08:43 Tingles wrote:
Was gonna say pretty much this. Not so agressive and less caps, but pretty much.
Don't fucking QQ when your T1 army gets owned late game T3 upgraded unit.
If thors / BC's / Tanks got owned by storm warp ins, we'd be having a different conversation.
Even with Storm, Bio balls are STILL ridiculously fast to replenish, cost effective and huuuuge DPS.
Thors/BCs/Tanks get owned by Protoss T1.
This is plainly false. If your tanks and thors are getting owned by zealots, I suspect you're not using them well.
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EPT
