EPTKhaydarin amulet analysis - Page 51
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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
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proot
United States126 Posts
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rycho
United States360 Posts
On March 11 2011 04:07 proot wrote: No, it still seems smart because it proves everything that's wrong with amulet. you mean when sc won a 40m game with pure bio vs templar? | ||
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Artisian
United States115 Posts
Infestors have burrow available, even without energy upgrades you can simply burrow and hide an infestor almost anywhere and it can freely save up energy, on top of that it can move while burrowed, pop up and cast a spell, then re-burrow and attempt to flee. Detection and a fairly decent army is required to catch and kill a set of infestors, and fungal makes it even easier for them to evade that. Infestors survive. Ghosts get cloak. They get to move at regular speed anywhere and hide. As an exchange, they loose energy while being able to essentially get anywhere they want whenever they want. In addition to this, ghosts aren't useless when they run out of energy during a fight or when being dropped, they have an attack with decent dps. Ghosts Fight. High templar had an immediate attack anywhere the protoss player had control. It's true an ht could become an attacking unit (archon) but that takes 20 seconds after you storm and that's only if 2 templar could actually reach one another in time. Point is that all other casters can do something that will generally be useful/let them live for another fight after they are out of energy, they are faster, have more health, and can escape or continue fighting after their spells. If we want all the spellcasters to be the same for balancing purposes, take ghosts regular attack away and give high templar permanent invisibility. We all know how imbalanced that would be, but ht's need something. The other casting units aren't just casters, they have 3 spells in addition to other traits. High templar are stuck as either caster(with only 2 spells) or fighting unit(with one of the lowest cost efficiencies in the game), there is no morphing back and no viable way to use them in an army if you can't rapidly replace them with warp in. The other point I have issue with is your mention that Ht's get access to their earlier spell faster, while this is technically true the other low cost spells have many times over the versatility. Snipe hits any biological unit, aka zeal, ling, and rine along with many other units that may not be quite as common. Infested terran turns the infestor into a production center on the move for a short time, and they can attack anything they can see. Feedback hits other casters. and that's it. These are the uncommon, but expensive, few units in the late game army. The spell has decent use against terran on medivacs, but its very rare you'll get a kill from it, and almost no use on zerg, unless they un-burrow all their infestors within a convenient range or use queens to fight. Protoss casters need something to make them viable if semi-semetrical balance is the goal, or all the other casters need to be nerfed to only casting, once, with no escaping the enemy army after a fight. | ||
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camilocraft
Colombia33 Posts
Also i think that blizz should punish the terran for using only barracks units all the game the same way they punish protoss for doing the same. And i really think the the cost of 1 HT is to high, yea it could wound half of and army but it can be countered by micro, and thats the real problem for me. terran bio can counter almost anything with micro. And what happend when i miss, i drop 150 gas, what happend if i feedback , i spend 150g i really thing that the problem with the HT is that his spells cost 150 gas because its pretty rare that a HT survives their cast because its so weak. So think about it every time u dodge a storm are 150 less gas for the enemy, everytime you make a ghost and he is feedback chances are that are 150 less gas for the enemy. I really think that the OP intentions are OK, u need to plan when and where do u want to use your casters, but the problem is that the tactically the HT will not survive, if you make viable HT survival, i will glad accept your timing theorycraft because it will be posible to use HT in an strategy plan | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 11 2011 01:08 Anon06 wrote: Suddenly? templars are have been nearly useless as is due to being overshadowed by collosi. This is not broodwar (no collosi in bw). Will templar play will get more exciting? Or will people continue to and increase not using them in favor of collosi? As of now they are at least and option but with the removal of kydarin this option will be gone. This change wont affect any single match up and just further pigeon holes protoss into one tech tree. There is no marauder in BW either and storm in BW was a lot better. I don't believe they should remove the upgrade entirely for all the obvious reasons that have been stated multiple times, however comparing things from SC2 to BW don't really make a lot of sense since a lot of the things are different. | ||
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
On March 11 2011 00:49 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: [ gz on reaching a low of balance comments on TL. having to wait a few seconds for storm surely deserves giving templars a cheaper emp that deals dmg . -___- Last I checked, emps weren't exactly "undamaging" to any protoss... at least feedback only affects units with energy.. | ||
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takunx9
United States8 Posts
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
On March 11 2011 03:52 traca wrote: watch san vs sC, even considering removing it seems not very smart he didn't make any colossus. had he made colossi + templar and just expanded slowly across the map instead of taking random bases and relying completely on warpin, I guarantee sC would have lost the terminus game at the 20 minute mark. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
San just mass expanded everywhere (sometime near the terran for no reason, as he had near bases still free), put 2 or 3 canon/base, then just relied on a round of warp for defense. The fact that 6 zealots and 4 ht just warped (20 food) where able to handle 60 (sometime a lot more than that) food armies was just shocking. Being able to do it once because you saved a lot of energy on your templar is normal, being able to just count on that for defense of a 160 food terran seems a little too much powerful. Yes, the terran wins the engagement. He has zero energy left on his medivacs, zero energy left on ghost, and all his army in red because of storm and stim. Then the next 3-4 templars will rack 30 kills, no amount of micro will save you from that. Obviously blue helions would have been a lot better than bio here. Templars are not the problem, being able to warp them storm ready is. And San exploited that just perfectly, mass expanding everywhere after amulet research, making zero army, just warping where he is attacked and building his army like that with the remains. But we'll see, perhaps terrans will find a way to play against that, it's very possible, until that, amulet seems really brutal. | ||
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rycho
United States360 Posts
if anything, i think it showed that storm only won't be a viable option, i think it was pretty clear that san would have lost those games trying to go zealot/templar alone if amulet didn't exist. i just don't get how people are pointing to these awesome back and forth games we got to watch and trying to use them as evidence of some game imbalance that needs fixing. personally, i'd love if all the sc2 games i played and got to watch were more like those. | ||
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Kazeyonoma
United States2912 Posts
What I don't get is that everyone keeps saying "without instant warp in templars, we don't stand a chance against terran bio" but terran bio exists in early game too, and what did every toss abuse with punity, especially guys like MC who punishes bio play hugely? oh that's right, Force Field. sentries, if you can't instant warp in templars on a whim because you'll need to protect them and let them gain energy will likely become less of a gas hog, giving you more opportunities to split your casters between sentries and templars, which allows you to do fancy micro like the recently dubbed "MC Donut holes" | ||
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TheAura
96 Posts
amulet still gone, but ghost EMP can only drain up to 100 energy. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On March 11 2011 05:50 MrCon wrote: The San vs sC showed exactly the amulet problem imo. San just mass expanded everywhere (sometime near the terran for no reason, as he had near bases still free), put 2 or 3 canon/base, then just relied on a round of warp for defense. The fact that 6 zealots and 4 ht just warped (20 food) where able to handle 60 (sometime a lot more than that) food armies was just shocking. Being able to do it once because you saved a lot of energy on your templar is normal, being able to just count on that for defense of a 160 food terran seems a little too much powerful. Yes, the terran wins the engagement. He has zero energy left on his medivacs, zero energy left on ghost, and all his army in red because of storm and stim. Then the next 3-4 templars will rack 30 kills, no amount of micro will save you from that. Obviously blue helions would have been a lot better than bio here. Templars are not the problem, being able to warp them storm ready is. And San exploited that just perfectly, mass expanding everywhere after amulet research, making zero army, just warping where he is attacked and building his army like that with the remains. But we'll see, perhaps terrans will find a way to play against that, it's very possible, until that, amulet seems really brutal. problem is, if he didnt have amulet, he would have gotten raped everytime... even when he was ahead, cuz templar tech suck shit vs terran unless u have amulet | ||
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rycho
United States360 Posts
as far as more sentries go, it might be possible to get more but keep in mind that if you don't use templar, you need to get colossus which is very gas heavy as well, and you need stalkers to protect them (unlike HT with which you can go more zealot-heavy). even with sentries, a well-microed marauder viking army tends to roll a gateway/colossus army from my experience, and the terran having the added advantage of spending less on tech and being more mobile. personally i just am not convinced that pvt is unfair, and if it is fair now than this is a big enough change that it could possibly make it unfair. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On March 11 2011 06:16 Fayth wrote: problem is, if he didnt have amulet, he would have gotten raped everytime... even when he was ahead, cuz templar tech suck shit vs terran unless u have amulet I don't think this is true. Without amulet, he crush the first push the same (because he warped HT as soon as archive was done, before amulet or even storm were researched). Then he has to actually build an army (witch he didn't have to do). The sc vs san matches made it look like without amulet san would've been crushed, that's true, but that's just because he never build any army, he just warped on demand, that was a perfect demonstration of why amulet needs to be removed. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 11 2011 06:16 TheAura wrote: amulet still gone, but ghost EMP can only drain up to 100 energy. now that fixes the problem only alittle. Cause as it is now, Terran has no problem throwing down all of his emp in 1-2 seconds if emp gets a short cooldown (like Storm already has!) than that would be a good change. could balance Ghost vs. HT encounters, so the need for Warp-ins is alot more eased up. | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
On March 11 2011 05:50 MrCon wrote: The San vs sC showed exactly the amulet problem imo. San just mass expanded everywhere (sometime near the terran for no reason, as he had near bases still free), put 2 or 3 canon/base, then just relied on a round of warp for defense. The fact that 6 zealots and 4 ht just warped (20 food) where able to handle 60 (sometime a lot more than that) food armies was just shocking. Being able to do it once because you saved a lot of energy on your templar is normal, being able to just count on that for defense of a 160 food terran seems a little too much powerful. Yes, the terran wins the engagement. He has zero energy left on his medivacs, zero energy left on ghost, and all his army in red because of storm and stim. Then the next 3-4 templars will rack 30 kills, no amount of micro will save you from that. Obviously blue helions would have been a lot better than bio here. Templars are not the problem, being able to warp them storm ready is. And San exploited that just perfectly, mass expanding everywhere after amulet research, making zero army, just warping where he is attacked and building his army like that with the remains. But we'll see, perhaps terrans will find a way to play against that, it's very possible, until that, amulet seems really brutal. It's also shocking that a planetary fortress can hold off 60 food protoss armies. It's defender's advantage. 20 food + mass cannons should be able to hold it. Out in the open, however, the 60 food terran army would KILL those units. Also btw 4 HT is like 600 gas. Which costs about the same as a 60 food marauder army. So the gas cost is similar. | ||
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Psychopomp
United States237 Posts
On March 11 2011 06:16 TheAura wrote: new PTR notes are up amulet still gone, but ghost EMP can only drain up to 100 energy. Ok, so now Ghosts can negate an entire minutes worth of built up energy, instead of everything. I still have no reason not to stick with Colossi. Unless your Templar are able to sit back for two and a half minutes, EMP will still reduce Templar to paperweights. | ||
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IreScath
Canada521 Posts
On March 11 2011 05:50 MrCon wrote: The San vs sC showed exactly the amulet problem imo. San just mass expanded everywhere (sometime near the terran for no reason, as he had near bases still free), put 2 or 3 canon/base, then just relied on a round of warp for defense. The fact that 6 zealots and 4 ht just warped (20 food) where able to handle 60 (sometime a lot more than that) food armies was just shocking. Being able to do it once because you saved a lot of energy on your templar is normal, being able to just count on that for defense of a 160 food terran seems a little too much powerful. Yes, the terran wins the engagement. He has zero energy left on his medivacs, zero energy left on ghost, and all his army in red because of storm and stim. Then the next 3-4 templars will rack 30 kills, no amount of micro will save you from that. Obviously blue helions would have been a lot better than bio here. Templars are not the problem, being able to warp them storm ready is. And San exploited that just perfectly, mass expanding everywhere after amulet research, making zero army, just warping where he is attacked and building his army like that with the remains. But we'll see, perhaps terrans will find a way to play against that, it's very possible, until that, amulet seems really brutal. If anything this game illustrated that this mechanic is in fact not broken. These were some of the closest and best games on GOM yet. Two of them came down to the last few units / bases. If this mechanic was as imba as people make it out to be then these games would have been ridiculously one sided. But they weren't. And not only were they not one sided, they were soooooooooo good, and soooooo close. Not only that, sc for the majority of the time did not micro out of the storms and took full damage. Imagine if had actually micro'd out of the storms every single time? San played great and was all over the map, sc played well, but micro mistake after micro mistake cost him. I can't believe people would use those amazing games as "proof amulet is imba". If anything, it proves the opposite. That play style is awesome, is epic, is fail, and Blizz wants to kill it???? What????? | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
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