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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 10 2011 15:48 Honeybadger wrote:
I'm really sick of protoss who whine about needing observers when they can send in three DT's and have completely defeated the terran's detection without a complete side-track of ebay-turret (which the DT can harass as it builds) or a raven (extremely expensive and high in the tech tree)
For the record, DTs are higher in the tech tree than Ravens, and Terran on-demand detection is more or less a reward for making a mistake on an already very forgiving macro mechanic.
Protoss aren't whining about needing observers. Everyone knows that having no detection is easily exploitable. The relevance to this thread is that Protoss need either Colossi or HT to stand up to the bio ball, and our tech path branches in such a way that if we want detection it's 8 times easier to go Colossi. Making HT less attractive than they already are does a great job of shoehorning us into only one tech path.
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On March 10 2011 17:16 Ayeffkay wrote:
For the record, DTs are higher in the tech tree than Ravens, and Terran on-demand detection is more or less a reward for making a mistake on an already very forgiving macro mechanic.
Protoss aren't whining about needing observers. Everyone knows that having no detection is easily exploitable. The relevance to this thread is that Protoss need either Colossi or HT to stand up to the bio ball, and our tech path branches in such a way that if we want detection it's 8 times easier to go Colossi. Making HT less attractive than they already are does a great job of shoehorning us into only one tech path.
Couldn't have said it better myself. If a terran player is playing passive/letting the toss player get both Storm and HT and sticking to bio then he's just asking to get rolled. There is a really akward timing where toss is simply teching (either to HT/Colossi) that terrans can exploit by just pressing T and a-moving. Not to mention all your dropping which kinda forces Toss players to be on the defensive
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Italy12248 Posts
On March 10 2011 12:46 Dalavita wrote:
I'm actually sick of the "you need to get observers, or you'll die to banshees" argument, whether related to this thread or not.
Is there any reason you would not want to get an observer? Constant scouting on your opponents tech and army, what is there not to like?
There's other ways of scouting (hallucination and phoenix), which are at best very hard to open with because the tech tree doesn't give detection. Yes, cannons are an option, but far, far worse than having 1-2 observers before colossi when opening robo.
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On March 10 2011 17:06 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 15:48 Honeybadger wrote:
That's just my .02 on the matter. I beat protoss with all the tech by simply outplaying them with MMM and no ghosts or even vikings. qft
Not saying you said anything wrong, either of you, but you made a point pretty clear.
I don't know what is up with people who think that MMM should always if not most often steam roll high-end Protoss tech. If the Terran has impecable micro, it can be quite even if the Protoss micros equally, but if Protoss is outplayed the MMM can wreak havoc & vis versa, and that just goes to show the efficiency of MMM. Nothing is broken about High Templar or Khaydarin Amulet, every Race gets a +starting energy upgrade, use/abuse it just like Protoss do, all is fair game.
And yea, if you're going to stay on a combination of MMM+Ghosts 20+ mins, you most likely deserve to be outplayed. Upgraded MMM+Ghosts is still Tier2/mid tech. Most Protoss units are support units, in the fashion that they either support, or need support to be effective, when there is a conjunction of mostly T2-T3 damage and support tech for Protoss, I'd say they should be on the better end, at least versus MMM. MMM+Ghost can squeeze in tanks, thors, BCs, whatever you want, Terran tech switches are as easy as P/Z if not easier, people chose not to, and it reflects when a higher tier army engages you, and is equally/better microd. If Protoss can get Collosus and High Templar by 15 minutes, you either made a mistake, or could have also made a leap toward economy or tech.
Srsly, this is a meta-game conflict, use more marauders, mechanical units and tech in general vs. High Templar/Protoss tech and there will be a huge change in results. High Templar cannot lure/storm your army if you have seiged tanks guarding your armies perimeter. Terran has more than enough options to either stomp HT tech, or have a really good shot against it. Marine Marauder are staple Terran units, they don't have to be used exclusively by themselves or together, they are still as efficient when paired with tech.
Artosis and Tasteless talk about it all the time. Some people go into games, not reacting to an enemies composition, just blindly following a build or composition and it shows when the battles occur. Whether you have a build or not, you need to alter your unit composition to that, that would best and most efficiently defeat it. That is what Starcraft/2 is all about.
And just plain simply, a lot of compositions, units, strategies, builds are unknown or said to be bad vs. something, but it may not be the case. Hellions are still extremely useful, as are reapers, Dark Templars, Archons, Sentries, Roaches, etc. - all previously (when nerfed or introduced) thought to be units that would rarely be seen. Many people said Seige Tanks are terrible since their nerf, thats completely untrue, as many Terran now began to use them again in TvZ, and its going to come back for TvP because Seige Tanks are terrifying, you hardly ever want to attack into them, and if you do, they will almost always pay for themselves. I have not tried/researched extensively, but Seige Tanks vs. HT seems extremely effective. If SCfOu had some Seige Tanks, I don't think over 50% of those storms and feedbacks would have gone off, nor do I believe that San would have been able to keep fighting small army vs small army, seige tanks are too efficient for that.
Eventually whether KA is removed or not, awesome forcefields are going to be used in conjuction with Storm, and I can't imagine when that becomes popular, because Jeeze, people are gonna go nuts with qq.
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Sadly with this change games like SanZenith gave us against SCfou won't happen again. I guess the ADD is too strong for people to have interest in 25+ minute games against mmm. Though I was thoroughly enjoying it. Can't please everyone I guess. 
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I seriously doubt this change will make it live and if it does blizzard will revert it back asap. Without HT starting energy they are virtually useless vs terran as many protoss players have already said. getting off feedbacks is next to impossible and any decent emp's will severely hurt your army and take out most of your HT's. SanZenith vs SCfou final game was a good example of how crucial that +25 energy upgrade is.
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I could see why they would change this. IMO instant warping in a storm could be used to great advantage with warp prisms. I personally never go high templar in games, so it doesn't effect my play. I could see some change coming to the HT to make up for this, though.
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I vote that to make up for KA removel, Bliz makes feedback into a projectile AoE attack, like EMP.
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On March 10 2011 20:51 Baarn wrote:Sadly with this change games like SanZenith gave us against SCfou won't happen again. I guess the ADD is too strong for people to have interest in 25+ minute games against mmm. Though I was thoroughly enjoying it. Can't please everyone I guess.
people need to stop acting like templars are suddenly useless if they cant storm on instant warpin. it wasnt the case in bw and wont be like that in sc2 once people realize that they just are spoiled by the warpin mechanic.
if anything templar play gets more impressive since it will incorporate warp prisms more and increase the skill needed to use it well.
P still has so much room for evolving, it will just get more and more exciting.
On March 11 2011 00:32 Rob28 wrote:
I vote that to make up for KA removel, Bliz makes feedback into a projectile AoE attack, like EMP.
gz on reaching a low of balance comments on TL. having to wait a few seconds for storm surely deserves giving templars a cheaper emp that deals dmg . -___-
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On March 11 2011 00:32 Rob28 wrote:
I vote that to make up for KA removel, Bliz makes feedback into a projectile AoE attack, like EMP.
I have a better idea. To make the EMP dmg over time instead of instant profit huge dmg aoe. Like draining 33 energy and shield per second for 3-4 seconds 
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On March 11 2011 00:49 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:+ Show Spoiler +people need to stop acting like templars are suddenly useless if they cant storm on instant warpin. it wasnt the case in bw and wont be like that in sc2 once people realize that they just are spoiled by the warpin mechanic. if anything templar play gets more impressive since it will incorporate warp prisms more and increase the skill needed to use it well. P still has so much room for evolving, it will just get more and more exciting. On March 11 2011 00:32 Rob28 wrote:
I vote that to make up for KA removel, Bliz makes feedback into a projectile AoE attack, like EMP. gz on reaching a low of balance comments on TL. having to wait a few seconds for storm surely deserves giving templars a cheaper emp that deals dmg . -___-
Yeah, this change will totally encourage Protoss to use Templar tech more and evolve their play. I sincerely hope Blizzard makes HTs spawn with 0 starting energy, which will evolve Templar play even further, and make it even more impressive!
Sigh, I wonder if it's going to be possible to play a 2+ base PvT without building Colossi after this nerf goes live.
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On March 11 2011 00:49 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
people need to stop acting like templars are suddenly useless if they cant storm on instant warpin. it wasnt the case in bw and wont be like that in sc2 once people realize that they just are spoiled by the warpin mechanic.
if anything templar play gets more impressive since it will incorporate warp prisms more and increase the skill needed to use it well.
P still has so much room for evolving, it will just get more and more exciting.
Suddenly? templars are have been nearly useless as is due to being overshadowed by collosi. This is not broodwar (no collosi in bw). Will templar play will get more exciting? Or will people continue to and increase not using them in favor of collosi? As of now they are at least and option but with the removal of kydarin this option will be gone. This change wont affect any single match up and just further pigeon holes protoss into one tech tree.
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On March 11 2011 00:49 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
people need to stop acting like templars are suddenly useless if they cant storm on instant warpin. it wasnt the case in bw and wont be like that in sc2 once people realize that they just are spoiled by the warpin mechanic.
if anything templar play gets more impressive since it will incorporate warp prisms more and increase the skill needed to use it well.
P still has so much room for evolving, it will just get more and more exciting.
Once again, the issue that people are complaining about is not the removal of warp-in storm. I don't think a single protoss would care if there was a 10 second delay on storm after the templar was warped in or something reasonable like that. However, 45 second delay on warp-in storm on a unit that, for all intensive purposes, is completely useless otherwise? That is where the real issue is with most protoss. Still not sure how people aren't grasping that.
And as for saying P has so much room for evolving, I would argue that T playstyles have stayed relatively stagnant in the past few months, while the other 2 races have been experimenting with new things. Maybe its time to leave that pure bioball mentality behind? For example: I'm not sure how every terran doesn't have at least 1 raven and 1 ghost in every pvt matchup they play. PDD + EMP? Probably the most annoying thing to play against, but yet I almost NEVER see any terran abuse these two things against protoss, everyone is content to go MMM because it works so well.
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On March 11 2011 01:01 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 00:49 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:+ Show Spoiler +people need to stop acting like templars are suddenly useless if they cant storm on instant warpin. it wasnt the case in bw and wont be like that in sc2 once people realize that they just are spoiled by the warpin mechanic. if anything templar play gets more impressive since it will incorporate warp prisms more and increase the skill needed to use it well. P still has so much room for evolving, it will just get more and more exciting. On March 11 2011 00:32 Rob28 wrote:
I vote that to make up for KA removel, Bliz makes feedback into a projectile AoE attack, like EMP. gz on reaching a low of balance comments on TL. having to wait a few seconds for storm surely deserves giving templars a cheaper emp that deals dmg . -___- Yeah, this change will totally encourage Protoss to use Templar tech more and evolve their play. I sincerely hope Blizzard makes HTs spawn with 0 starting energy, which will evolve Templar play even further, and make it even more impressive! Sigh, I wonder if it's going to be possible to play a 2+ base PvT without building Colossi after this nerf goes live.
read again. i never said something about encouraging templar play. i said templar play will get harder to use (be it control, proactive play, use of prisms etc) and thus more interesting/impressive to see.
On March 11 2011 01:08 Anon06 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 00:49 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
people need to stop acting like templars are suddenly useless if they cant storm on instant warpin. it wasnt the case in bw and wont be like that in sc2 once people realize that they just are spoiled by the warpin mechanic.
if anything templar play gets more impressive since it will incorporate warp prisms more and increase the skill needed to use it well.
P still has so much room for evolving, it will just get more and more exciting.
Suddenly? templars are have been nearly useless as is due to being overshadowed by collosi. This is not broodwar (no collosi in bw). Will templar play will get more exciting? Or will people continue to and increase not using them in favor of collosi? As of now they are at least and option but with the removal of kydarin this option will be gone. This change wont affect any single match up and just further pigeon holes protoss into one tech tree.
this is a problem with the bad design of the collosus, not the templar. warpin storm is a stupid mechanic that needs to go. keeping it in cause collosus are used in 99% of games anyways is jsut not smart.
On March 11 2011 01:10 jaiiiii wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 00:49 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
people need to stop acting like templars are suddenly useless if they cant storm on instant warpin. it wasnt the case in bw and wont be like that in sc2 once people realize that they just are spoiled by the warpin mechanic.
if anything templar play gets more impressive since it will incorporate warp prisms more and increase the skill needed to use it well.
P still has so much room for evolving, it will just get more and more exciting.
Once again, the issue that people are complaining about is not the removal of warp-in storm. I don't think a single protoss would care if there was a 10 second delay on storm after the templar was warped in or something reasonable like that. However, 45 second delay on warp-in storm on a unit that, for all intensive purposes, is completely useless otherwise? That is where the real issue is with most protoss. Still not sure how people aren't grasping that. And as for saying P has so much room for evolving, I would argue that T playstyles have stayed relatively stagnant in the past few months, while the other 2 races have been experimenting with new things. Maybe its time to leave that pure bioball mentality behind? For example: I'm not sure how every terran doesn't have at least 1 raven and 1 ghost in every pvt matchup they play. PDD + EMP? Probably the most annoying thing to play against, but yet I almost NEVER see any terran abuse these two things against protoss, everyone is content to go MMM because it works so well.
sadly your first part isnt true. many of the arguments from the baddywhiners evolve around "but defending drops is IMPOSSIBLE then" and similar crap.
i fully agree with you. amulet should stay in. but like thousand others said like it was in bw. 62 start,50 to max.
about the evolution of races your somewhat right. T def will change alot. but alot is limited by the building/upgrade thing. sure evryone wants to see BCs mixed in but 0-0 BCs wont tickle vs 2-2 or higher teched armies. sure having a raven is nice but its the gas a thor costs and cuts into your medivac/viking production which often is way more important.
P already evolved a shitton over the last few months and still so much is under/unused.
for Z i dunno. outside of infestors still beeing underused im not sure what more should come out of the race.
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I don't think SanZenith has made a single Colossus in the GSL so far. Without the Amulet he'd have been chewed up and spat out in the first round, but instead we've been given nail biting game after nail biting game. I don't even seen the problem with it to be honest. If Zerg players started timing their Infestor production so an opposing army reaches a tight choke point as soon as the Infestor gets there you'd be seeing a very similar situation. Not to mention everyone seems to forget that to have a Warp Gate waiting to warp in a unit is production time lost elsewhere.
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Aren't infestor and ghost just simply easier to tech to? And because HT are on a higher "tier" shouldn't they just be simply better casters and with it having the rewards of being a higher tier unit. You failed to mention this at all in your analysis which is pivotal to comparing the units... It's like comparing archons vs roaches clearly the archon is just simply better and should be because it requires more tech buildings.
rax ---------> academy
pool -------> lair -----------> pit
gateway -> core ---------> council ----> archives
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On March 11 2011 01:44 Spinfuser wrote:
Aren't infestor and ghost just simply easier to tech to? And because HT are on a higher "tier" shouldn't they just be simply better casters and with it having the rewards of being a higher tier unit. You failed to mention this at all in your analysis which is pivotal to comparing the units... It's like comparing archons vs roaches clearly the archon is just simply better and should be because it requires more tech buildings.
rax ---------> academy
pool -------> lair -----------> pit
gateway -> core ---------> council ----> archives
direct comparisons like that are kinda pointless.not to mention that HTs infact are overall better then ghosts and even infestors. and this is totally irrelevant to the amulet discussion.
also think about the sentry which is a amzing caster with just the most basic tech or the raven which is a kinda terrible caster and quite late tech.cant look at it like that.
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If they give me reavers back, then toss will still be able to harass then sure
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On March 11 2011 01:49 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
direct comparisons like that are kinda pointless.
Right, direct comparisons where the High Templar has an advantage like the basic premise of the OP are spot on, but direct comparisons in any area where High Templar having an advantage is justified are pointless, and comparing High Templar directly to Ghosts or Infestors is a big no-no, unless
On March 11 2011 01:49 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
HTs infact are overall better then ghosts and even infestors. which is a direct comparsion but is ok because it backs up Terran reasoning for High Templar to be nerfed.
People aren't screaming for KA to be removed because HT or Psi Storm are imba, this is about the Warp Gate mechanic. It's somehow fine for Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries and Dark Templar to warp in to reinforce, but HT shouldn't be allowed to do that because they're tier 3 casters and actually have something that can turn the tide against tier 1 bio balls. If they just had the decency to die like zealots do before ever getting within striking range of a clumped up ball of thrice-doped marines with 15 hp a piece, we wouldn't need to have this conversation.
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watch san vs sC, even considering removing it seems not very smart
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EPT
