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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
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TheAura
96 Posts
Why not? Dead army compared to an army with half health. I'd gladly be on the Protoss side in this engagement. well if we are just gonna walk up, each use our spells, for pure dps, then walk away then yes ill take protoss' side. But if we are actually going to battle and you get good EMP,s and i get a couple good storms (but you have the audacity to move your units out of it) then it can go either way. | ||
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OfficerTJHooker
Canada97 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:14 dala wrote: This is a necessary patch. Storming of mineral lines is way too powerful. I love how people consistently bring up this argument when baneling bombs in the mineral line or hellions take about 1/3 of the tech time to pull off with sometimes much better results. Don't even get me started on blue flame. | ||
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Aequos
Canada606 Posts
On March 09 2011 14:35 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Question: isn't this the same as saying that Terran Scans need to be nerfed because if a Protoss or Zerg gets DT rushed and has no available detection (Cannons, Robotics Facility, Spore Crawlers, Lair) due to misjudging their opponent's build they 'have to face the consequences of it', but if Terrans without an Engineering Bay or Raven do so, they can just scan 'to neutralise their mistake'? Different races have different abilities. High Templar are a significant tech investment, of course they're powerful, otherwise what would be the point of that investment? I'm surprised no one mentioned this post. If Terran forget detection, they can mitigate the damage by scanning to drive off banshees or DTs. If Zerg forget detection (and aren't on lair) they die. If Protoss forget detection (and chose HTs instead of Colossi) they die. If a Terran player forgets ghosts and the opponent has HT, they die. If the Protoss player forgets HT and there's a giant marine ball, they summon storms. If you argue that Terran don't always have the energy for scan, you have to agree that Protoss doesn't always have warpgates off cooldown. Edit: Changed last sentence for clarity. Edit2: People are misunderstanding the central paragraph. I know Protoss needs AoE to combat the bioball. What I'm arguing is that Terran have an emergency "don't die to cloaked units", so it isn't that unreasonable that P get a "don't die to bioball" button. I'm arguing for the amulet staying. | ||
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wideye
United States209 Posts
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Sek-Kuar
Czech Republic593 Posts
On March 09 2011 23:37 freetgy wrote: ghosts require techlabs while Marines do not, obviously T isn't only going to build ghosts thus he can extend his production alot quicker via Reactors, freeing other Rax to build tech units. though it doesn't directly changes the buildtime of ghosts it of course effects production capacity. by OP logic? Units out of reactors build (effectivly) twice as fast since the opponent doesn't have that ("nooby") mechanic, production time wise it is imbalanced thus removing reactor will make balancing out units easier. The flow in that logic is that you can't disregard production time and production rate and watch one term isolated to claim something isn't right. Now you are just randomly throwing this away w/o having any evidence. OFC both production rate and production time are important, that I started talking about them - people have to make difference between this two to fully understand production. But you are right, in some situations, for example when you are massing before battle, you dont care all that much about production time - when you have lets say 4 minutes, only important thing is how many units can you build, not how long it takes to get single unit. But when you are being attacked, or this is triggered by anything like that - and you just finished Warpgate, or just have warpgate ready, or whatever - you dont care about production rate, only build time. And in a lot more situations too... Because at that point difference between 5 sec and 45-90 sec can be gg. So as I said again, in this game there are some tsituations when Protoss have 2 chances to do things correctly, while others have just 1. And its not about balance, but about mechincs... PS: and I recommend you to stop trying to continue making any examples of anything. Reacors do not change anything, only doubles production rate just like building another building which is esp. in case of rax not really more expensive, and also dont stop first building from production. It has nothing to do with anything said in OP. Unlike warpgates wich affect both production rate and greatly reduces production time. And teleport. + Show Spoiler + This is something I noticed while ago, and what frankly isnt so sumprising to me - when I said that removing amulet is good thing, a lot people OFC responded that protoss need it - but when I said that storm could be rebalanced around removed amulet, they simply didnt want it. Because its always better to have weaker storm, that can be used well even if you make several mistakes, miss key timings, plan poorly and make a lot of bad decisions... ...compared to stronger storm, which is more skill-dependent and requires better understanding to game. At least for lower players. | ||
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traca
146 Posts
though i d say i donthink blizzard will remove it | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On March 10 2011 03:52 Aequos wrote: I'm surprised no one mentioned this post. If Terran forget detection, they can mitigate the damage by scanning to drive off banshees or DTs. If Zerg forget detection (and aren't on lair) they die. If Protoss forget detection (and chose HTs instead of Colossi) they die. If a Terran player forgets ghosts and the opponent has HT, they die. If the Protoss player forgets HT and there's a giant marine ball, they summon storms. If you argue that Terran don't always have the energy for scan, you have to agree that Protoss doesn't always have warpgates off cooldown. Edit: Changed last sentence for clarity. I agree except for the bolded part. Protoss players need tech units in PvT. Terran players can, a lot of the time, win without ghosts. They can do viking+marine+marauder or just marine+marauder, or just pure mech, and skip ghosts entirely, and win against HT or colossus. For a Protoss player, it's a requirement to go down either the colossus techpath or the HT techpath, if not both. You can't win against barracks units with just gateway units when stim is out and you're on even bases. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On March 10 2011 03:46 OfficerTJHooker wrote: I love how people consistently bring up this argument when baneling bombs in the mineral line or hellions take about 1/3 of the tech time to pull off with sometimes much better results. Don't even get me started on blue flame. I agree. I've seen FAR more mineral line massacres to Blue Flame Hellions than any other harass unit. I've never seen storms in a mineral line do as much damage as, say, TOP's blue flame hellions did to Byun in the final game of Code A last season, or SuperNova's BFHs do to Squirtle in their series. | ||
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Sek-Kuar
Czech Republic593 Posts
On March 10 2011 03:52 Aequos wrote: I'm surprised no one mentioned this post. If Terran forget detection, they can mitigate the damage by scanning to drive off banshees or DTs. If Zerg forget detection (and aren't on lair) they die. If Protoss forget detection (and chose HTs instead of Colossi) they die. If a Terran player forgets ghosts and the opponent has HT, they die. If the Protoss player forgets HT and there's a giant marine ball, they summon storms. If you argue that Terran don't always have the energy for scan, you have to agree that Protoss doesn't always have warpgates off cooldown. Edit: Changed last sentence for clarity. I agree that it really is not perfect solution, but: Scan works mostly well against DTs, but rarely against banshees. It doesnt give detection, it just detect temporarily. It costs cost mule. So its in true sense "emergency thing" - it costs more, its temporarily with not guaranted effect. Warp-In is by all means better than any standard production possible, gives permament effect and cost same, and has exactly same effeciency as non-emergency solution. Nobody is saying that scan is perfect mechincs, though its better than it was in BW, but still warp-in doesnt have even 1/10 of cons scan has. | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
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rXs
223 Posts
On March 10 2011 03:52 Aequos wrote: I'm surprised no one mentioned this post. If Terran forget detection, they can mitigate the damage by scanning to drive off banshees or DTs. If Zerg forget detection (and aren't on lair) they die. If Protoss forget detection (and chose HTs instead of Colossi) they die. If a Terran player forgets ghosts and the opponent has HT, they die. If the Protoss player forgets HT and there's a giant marine ball, they summon storms. If you argue that Terran don't always have the energy for scan, you have to agree that Protoss doesn't always have warpgates off cooldown. Edit: Changed last sentence for clarity. LOL. no. Protoss DIDN'T forget HT in that situation. They invested time and money on building the tech so they can just warp-in storms. They don't FORGET to get them, they just choose not to until the right time to warp them in. And if a Terran player forgets to make ghosts after seeing HTs then that's just retarded. | ||
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Touch
Canada475 Posts
On March 10 2011 03:39 jaiiiii wrote: This thread is about KA, not about storm. No need for me to debate this. Feel bad for you Chill, just seems like a TvP of theorycrafting. | ||
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undyinglight
United States611 Posts
On March 09 2011 18:41 Ayeffkay wrote: I am a protoss player, so obviously I'm biased in favor of amulet staying, but conflating balancing with equalizing is absurd. If High Templar are currently "stronger" than the other races' casters, that's to offset weaknesses elsewhere. Just for starters, to make HTs with storm you need to make gateway, then core, then council, then archives, then research storm. FIVE steps. To make ghosts with EMP you need to make barracks and then academy and tech lab (can be done simultaneously). TWO steps. Techlab is pretty much made along the way anyway, while the requisite buildings for HTs are often a weaker choice (at least in the short term) than the colossus route. Spellcasters don't exist in a closed ecosystem. Weakening Templar doesn't make them equal to ghosts*, it makes Protoss as a whole weaker. Terran bio ball rolls Protoss unless they have some form of AOE. There's only two options there, and Colossi are already considered the better choice (due to the need for observers, the min:gas ratio of colossus cost, the relative simplicity of killing things with colossi compared to storm, the likelihood that you'll simply die while waiting for HT to come online if you don't have colossi, and the general sturdiness of colossi compared to HT). I'm not saying Khaydarin Amulet is perfect the way it is, but removing it completely closes essentially half of Protoss's late game options. It diminishes variety which is already in short supply for Protoss and tells the Terran "you don't need to scout, colossi are definitely on the way, so go ahead and use that energy on a mule." IMO, Amulet isn't even the tipping point on which Protoss becomes imbalanced. If anything, it's the strength of a 200 food Protoss army compared to a 200 food Terran army, and even that is balanced by the strength of a 50 food Terran army over a 50 food Protoss army. Finally, if Blizzard somehow didn't see HT warp in coming and that's ruining balance by itself, when will they admit that they didn't see Conc Shell kiting or Stim kiting coming and take those out too? /rant on: *Ghosts aren't already better than High Templar? EMP does all its damage up front (up to 100) and nullifies all spellcasters in the area, whereas Psi Storm takes 4 seconds to do 80 damage IF the targets stay in the AOE. Templar need a different spell to nullify casters, and it only targets one, not to mention that every time you use it you're taking mana away from Psi Storm. Ghosts can spend 50 mana to kill a templar no matter what, or they can do it for free with a couple auto attacks, which even do bonus damage to High Templar. Ghosts can cloak. Ghosts have 100 life to HTs' 40+40. Ghosts smell nicer and women find them more attractive. Does all that outweigh the disadvantages of costing more minerals and not building instantly? (The ability to build remotely is an advantage given to the Protoss race, not specifically to HTs, and without Khaydarin Amulet, there's little incentive to build them remotely anyway.) In the very narrow, Ghosts-and-HTs-are-the-only-units-that-exist bubble, Ghosts are better. If you want to consider the two entire factions of Protoss and Terran and the unique strengths that HTs and Ghosts bring to them, then you need to ignore the OP's 1st point entirely. You also need to give Zealots guns so they can endlessly kite or shoot from behind a wall or up a cliff, because then "it will be definitely easier to balance game around that... rather than balancing game around one" unit getting free pot shots and the other taking a minute to chop through the bunker. /rant off Sir, I must agree with your sentiments It seems prior to this PTR patch players claimed their was a lack of diversification in how Protoss players played out their late game. This nerf will make fewer and fewer players go for High Templar. Protoss has a difficult time going head to head with the other races only using its 3 core Gateway units. HT with amulet seemed to me at least to compliment the current Protoss arsenal beautifully. It is a very valid point also that Protoss have to climb significantly higher up the tech tree than the other races spellcasters, and it is two separate research items that must be completed prior to being able to use it. You are investing a large amount of resources into getting HT, resources that can be used on units/expanding yet if amulet is removed you are left with HT that can have not much of a palpable immediate effect on the battlefield, even ghosts have a normal attack. It just felt great the way it is and I have never seen anyone, in the English community at least blow a whistle at Khaydarian Amulet prior to the 1.3 patch. In conclusion as a Protoss player IMHO Khaydarian Amulet did not need adjusting. That being said I think future statistics may swing in favor of the other races if Amulet is removed. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 10 2011 06:36 GHOSTCLAW wrote: Please remember the game is supposed to be asymmetric, and that each unit is supposed to be imba individually. Arguments such as ht vs blue flame don't make much sense most of the time. I agree with the most of the time part, but here people are claiming that storming mineral lines is too devastating and that might be a reason for the KA removal... If that is the reason behind the removal, then it is flawed in that it is still going to happen, just not with KA but with HT from the main that were warped in earlier in the game and who have energy already. The argument, if this is what is behind the changed, is a poor one since: -blue flame/bling drop/runby is just as devastating and feasible(It seems that bliz wanted AOE against the workers for all 3 races to be possible - speculation and inference from the tools the each race have) -removing KA will not stop this practice in any way Also since the game is asymmetric, I would argue that rax vs gateway units is asymmetric in favor of terran, and the asymmetry is tilted to Protoss later in the game after KA/Storm is researched. In my opinion, asymmetry is different then imbalance, since asymmetry suggests that P and T have strengths and weaknesses against them at different times in the game, where imbalance is when the asymmetrical peaks of strengths for one race outnumber the peaks for the other (if asymmetry were visualized on a graph in peaks/valleys). This is my argument on how KA actually balances the matchup rather than imbalances it in Protoss's favor. | ||
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
MMM is so efficient and so easy to mass produce. Protoss always have to tech and these are the benefits we get, if people didn't just mass marines I really don't think anyone would complain when a Toss uses HT to warp in storms on an army, half of that being Terran tech units. Storm doesn't kill stuff instantly, and doesn't have a HUGE range. Gateway units are terrible vs anything late game without tech support, and tech support is horrible without gateway support. What the hell is Protoss supposed to do to efficiently handle other Races efficient harass and armies? It takes Protoss 10-15mins, a ton'o'tech and gas to get a unit that can efficiently kill/injure mass units. Zergs have banelings/drops, and Terran have countless ways, banshee, tanks, hellion, drops + those, etc... Terran can have Cloaked Ghosts, EMP, Snipe, Scan, and Seiged Tanks all working to nullify the High Templar. Which, if your High Templar do not get to storm or feedback they aren't worth shit and practically lose you the game. Going enough Marauders you don't even need Vikings or Ghosts to deal with Protoss tech, I think if anything is overpowered, its probably produced by Terran. However, warping in storms vs Zerg is a lot more powerful due to zergs fragile/mass unit nature. But I feel removing it vs. Terran alone is going to be quite a hit that I won't go into Zerg. Khaydarin Amulet MAY be over powered, but I really don't think now is the time to say. | ||
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Ayeffkay
United States4 Posts
On March 10 2011 00:15 TimeSpiral wrote: ^ That is a MASSIVE first post. But, this is an "analysis" thread which I think requires looking at numbers to measure efficacy. Maybe it doesn't, but anything else is subjective and opinionated (which has its place in an argument for sure). Throughout this thread I've systematically compared spells and spell-casters from just about every angle. Comparing the Templar to the Ghost is silly, but happens all the time. It was a long post, and I did register just to post it, but rest assured I didn't just show up here yesterday to complain about KA  I don't tend to join into the discussion unless I really have a point to make, so I hadn't registered an account until I had one.My main point was that the numbers taken in a bubble don't show the full story. You can't just balance one unit against another unit, which is what OP's first point is based on. I appreciate that the second point does not say that it balances the game, but it implies that it will make it easier to balance. There are a lot of other problems that are enhanced if one of Protoss's top two tech choices is weakened. Ghostclaw said it much more succinctly than I could, On March 10 2011 06:36 GHOSTCLAW wrote: Please remember the game is supposed to be asymmetric, and that each unit is supposed to be imba individually. Arguments such as ht vs blue flame don't make much sense most of the time. I'd be in favor of moving HT to another building and having them train the traditional way before I'd agree that removing KA is a wise move. A Ghost with Moebius who pops out of the barracks at the right time can save the day, but an HT that spawns without enough mana to storm is a big juicy target for 50 seconds. There is a very real difference between a unit that takes 50 seconds to spawn but can act instantly, and a unit that spawns instantly but takes 50 seconds to act. If the real problem with KA is that I can decide I need HTs now and summon them nigh-instantaneously, as many in this thread are saying, then it's the Warpgate mechanic that's really the problem. Of course, that begs the question of whether on-demand Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, and DTs need to be examined (and personally I hate enemy pylons outside my base as much as anyone else), but that's a topic for a different thread. | ||
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
On March 10 2011 09:02 Ayeffkay wrote: ...A Ghost with Moebius who pops out of the barracks at the right time can save the day, but an HT that spawns without enough mana to storm is a big juicy target for 50 seconds. There is a very real difference between a unit that takes 50 seconds to spawn but can act instantly, and a unit that spawns instantly but takes 50 seconds to act. If the real problem with KA is that I can decide I need HTs now and summon them nigh-instantaneously, as many in this thread are saying, then it's the Warpgate mechanic that's really the problem. Of course, that begs the question of whether on-demand Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, and DTs need to be examined (and personally I hate enemy pylons outside my base as much as anyone else), but that's a topic for a different thread. I agree completely. If anything, warping in HT's needs to be looked at, not Khaydarin Amulet. I'd be alright with HT's having a long production time even if they were warped in. Dropping KA, is not reasonable in the slightest in retrospect of Terrans tech versatility and unit diversity. High Templars are shiny and slow, but can be warped in wherever possible, and can only readily feedback w/o upgrades, so any unit without energy is unhindered by them at first. Infestors are fast on creep and medium off, but can move while burrowed and deploy Infested Terrans while burrowed (which are a general purpose unit). Ghosts can use Cloak aside from being great vs. Light in an army, and snipe is readily available for general use. That being said, it makes it a lot easier for Ghosts and Infestors to be a unit that can live, wait for their energy, follow an army, and be kept around. In/after a battle, High Templars either die, get EMPd or merge, rarely do they escape a retreat and live to storm again. Protoss is all about tech, psi/shields, and really good spells. If someone took out your first expo, you can hold the game with ramp forcefields. T/Z still have options to negate the Force Field, just like they have options to negate High Templars. All the casters are already damn well balanced, any changes to Ghosts or HTs will probably not go well. | ||
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Sek-Kuar
Czech Republic593 Posts
On March 10 2011 09:13 v3chr0 wrote: I agree completely. If anything, warping in HT's needs to be looked at, not Khaydarin Amulet. I'd be alright with HT's having a long production time even if they were warped in. Dropping KA, is not reasonable in the slightest in retrospect of Terrans tech versatility and unit diversity. High Templars are shiny and slow, but can be warped in wherever possible, and can only readily feedback w/o upgrades, so any unit without energy is unhindered by them at first. Infestors are fast on creep and medium off, but can move while burrowed and deploy Infested Terrans while burrowed (which are a general purpose unit). Ghosts can use Cloak aside from being great vs. Light in an army, and snipe is readily available for general use. That being said, it makes it a lot easier for Ghosts and Infestors to be a unit that can live, wait for their energy, follow an army, and be kept around. In/after a battle, High Templars either die, get EMPd or merge, rarely do they escape a retreat and live to storm again. Protoss is all about tech, psi/shields, and really good spells. If someone took out your first expo, you can hold the game with ramp forcefields. T/Z still have options to negate the Force Field, just like they have options to negate High Templars. All the casters are already damn well balanced, any changes to Ghosts or HTs will probably not go well. I doubt Blizzard is ever going to do anything significant with Warp-In, and if I cant imagine it before HotS. If you look at it, Warp-In is reason why is Dark Shrine so expensive and takeforever to build, very likely reason why are both Templars separated, reason for this KA change and most important reason why are Gateway units relatively weak. But Blizzard is not going to change it. On March 10 2011 06:45 rXs wrote: LOL. no. Protoss DIDN'T forget HT in that situation. They invested time and money on building the tech so they can just warp-in storms. They don't FORGET to get them, they just choose not to until the right time to warp them in. And if a Terran player forgets to make ghosts after seeing HTs then that's just retarded. Why is everyone in this thread saying that preparation = preparation? If Protoss can w8 until last seconds to decide what exactly he see and what is best way to counter it, it is equal to Terran who requires most likely 60-90 seconds to do so? And does it require same skills, understanding game and experiences? Then why not just make everything to have build time 0 seconds, and all players will have to do is teching and then lets see who can therycraft better to make exactly units to counter enemy who lost his patience first? Maybe it would be almost as much interesting as having only 1 race in SC2. | ||
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Aequos
Canada606 Posts
On March 10 2011 10:20 Sek-Kuar wrote: I doubt Blizzard is ever going to do anything significant with Warp-In, and if I cant imagine it before HotS. If you look at it, Warp-In is reason why is Dark Shrine so expensive and takeforever to build, very likely reason why are both Templars separated, reason for this KA change and most important reason why are Gateway units relatively weak. But Blizzard is not going to change it. Why is everyone in this thread saying that preparation = preparation? If Protoss can w8 until last seconds to decide what exactly he see and what is best way to counter it, it is equal to Terran who requires most likely 60-90 seconds to do so? And does it require same skills, understanding game and experiences? Then why not just make everything to have build time 0 seconds, and all players will have to do is teching and then lets see who can therycraft better to make exactly units to counter enemy who lost his patience first? Maybe it would be almost as much interesting as having only 1 race in SC2. Technically, I could wait to the last second, building absolutely no units until I see what the Terran is going. This isn't practical, though. Say I prepare by building a Templar Archives and a bunch of Warp Gates for your rush. I research storm, and wait to see if you attack. You bring cloaked banshees, and I die because I built the wrong unit. If your answer is I should scout better - well, why can't you? You have scans available, and there are only so many places I can put a Templar Archives. It's not like I instantly have HT available when it enters construction. I have to prepare by researching storm, and research Khydarian to be useful. If you can't scout it at some point during this period, don't you sort of deserve to lose? You have plenty of time to produce a ghost during this time, even if you start production of the Ghost Academy after I finish constructing the Archives. I can adjust the amount of High Templar I have in my army based on what I see - thats one of the advantages I get as Protoss. I also have tech buildings that aren't production buildings - thats one of the disadvantages I get as Protoss. I can't surprise a Terran player with Dark Templar - Thats an advantage Terran gets. Terran has to think a bit more about composition ahead of time - Thats their disadvantage. Each race has things like this. Edit: Typo | ||
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Hyren82
Korea (South)2 Posts
One thing I think the zerg/terran players here don't seem to realize: They all say "oh, its just 44 seconds, it puts them on even footing with our casters!", but they don't think about how much more survivable the ghost and infestor actually are Infestor has a move speed of 2.5 and can move while burrowed (at a speed of 2). That means they outrun most basic ground units (MM, zealots, sentries) and have a form of cloaking Ghosts have a move speed of 2.25 and have the ability to cloak HT move at 1.875 (yes, a burrowed infestor will outrun an HT) and have a glowy cloak that, instead of hiding them, makes them stand out. Being unable to warp them in with enough energy to storm means that there's no point in reinforcing at the front lines, as if those lines shift at all, they'll just die. Similarly, building them at the base and moving them to the front lines once they have enough energy is incredibly risky because they move so slowly and have no way to hide (or even protect) themselves. | ||
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