EPTBefore Blizzard mentioned their new plan about KA, nobody EVER brought up this issue. All terrans and zergs weren't complaining at all ...
Khaydarin amulet analysis - Page 47
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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
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LesPhoques
Canada782 Posts
Before Blizzard mentioned their new plan about KA, nobody EVER brought up this issue. All terrans and zergs weren't complaining at all ... | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On March 09 2011 14:40 LesPhoques wrote: Bright minds of TeamLiquid, please explain why the hell so much discussion about this? Before Blizzard mentioned their new plan about KA, nobody EVER brought up this issue. All terrans and zergs weren't complaining at all ... This must be some pretty blatant sarcasm. The complaints about warp-in storms were constant and never-ending... and certainly warranted. The main issue is the on the fly perfect response to drops; most thigns coming out of a medivac in a late game drop would be highly susceptible to psionic storm, and the it meant that map control would be less of an issue for Protoss. | ||
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Ayeffkay
United States4 Posts
Spellcasters don't exist in a closed ecosystem. Weakening Templar doesn't make them equal to ghosts*, it makes Protoss as a whole weaker. Terran bio ball rolls Protoss unless they have some form of AOE. There's only two options there, and Colossi are already considered the better choice (due to the need for observers, the min:gas ratio of colossus cost, the relative simplicity of killing things with colossi compared to storm, the likelihood that you'll simply die while waiting for HT to come online if you don't have colossi, and the general sturdiness of colossi compared to HT). I'm not saying Khaydarin Amulet is perfect the way it is, but removing it completely closes essentially half of Protoss's late game options. It diminishes variety which is already in short supply for Protoss and tells the Terran "you don't need to scout, colossi are definitely on the way, so go ahead and use that energy on a mule." IMO, Amulet isn't even the tipping point on which Protoss becomes imbalanced. If anything, it's the strength of a 200 food Protoss army compared to a 200 food Terran army, and even that is balanced by the strength of a 50 food Terran army over a 50 food Protoss army. Finally, if Blizzard somehow didn't see HT warp in coming and that's ruining balance by itself, when will they admit that they didn't see Conc Shell kiting or Stim kiting coming and take those out too? /rant on: *Ghosts aren't already better than High Templar? EMP does all its damage up front (up to 100) and nullifies all spellcasters in the area, whereas Psi Storm takes 4 seconds to do 80 damage IF the targets stay in the AOE. Templar need a different spell to nullify casters, and it only targets one, not to mention that every time you use it you're taking mana away from Psi Storm. Ghosts can spend 50 mana to kill a templar no matter what, or they can do it for free with a couple auto attacks, which even do bonus damage to High Templar. Ghosts can cloak. Ghosts have 100 life to HTs' 40+40. Ghosts smell nicer and women find them more attractive. Does all that outweigh the disadvantages of costing more minerals and not building instantly? (The ability to build remotely is an advantage given to the Protoss race, not specifically to HTs, and without Khaydarin Amulet, there's little incentive to build them remotely anyway.) In the very narrow, Ghosts-and-HTs-are-the-only-units-that-exist bubble, Ghosts are better. If you want to consider the two entire factions of Protoss and Terran and the unique strengths that HTs and Ghosts bring to them, then you need to ignore the OP's 1st point entirely. You also need to give Zealots guns so they can endlessly kite or shoot from behind a wall or up a cliff, because then "it will be definitely easier to balance game around that... rather than balancing game around one" unit getting free pot shots and the other taking a minute to chop through the bunker. /rant off | ||
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rickybobby
United States405 Posts
I may not like all blizzards changes but i trust them more than what others say and what i see when i play and i definitely wouldnt argue against them before i see the consequences of the changes. -_- | ||
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Big_Pete1999
United States22 Posts
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jaiiiii
United States72 Posts
On March 09 2011 23:27 Big_Pete1999 wrote: One could argue that Ghost only takes 22.5 seconds to build with full EMP and cloak because their barracks has the ability to produce 2 at a time because of the reactor. This is the same line of thinking the OP uses to calculate HT's because he only uses warpgates without cooldown instead of gateways. I'm not a big fan of the cooldown argument or w/e, but this is just a wrong statement? ghosts can't be built out of a rax+reactor ( i hope that i'm not replying to sarcasm ). | ||
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danielsan
Romania399 Posts
On March 09 2011 23:27 Big_Pete1999 wrote: One could argue that Ghost only takes 22.5 seconds to build with full EMP and cloak because their barracks has the ability to produce 2 at a time because of the reactor. This is the same line of thinking the OP uses to calculate HT's because he only uses warpgates without cooldown instead of gateways. what | ||
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Suchimo
United Kingdom10 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
though it doesn't directly changes the buildtime of ghosts it of course effects production capacity. by OP logic? Units out of reactors build (effectivly) twice as fast since the opponent doesn't have that ("nooby") mechanic, production time wise it is imbalanced thus removing reactor will make balancing out units easier. The flow in that logic is that you can't disregard production time and production rate and watch one term isolated to claim something isn't right. | ||
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Suchimo
United Kingdom10 Posts
By your argument, Protoss can just double gateways to build "twice as fast". | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 09 2011 18:41 Ayeffkay wrote: I am a protoss player, so obviously I'm biased in favor of amulet staying ... + Show Spoiler + but conflating balancing with equalizing is absurd. If High Templar are currently "stronger" than the other races' casters, that's to offset weaknesses elsewhere. Just for starters, to make HTs with storm you need to make gateway, then core, then council, then archives, then research storm. FIVE steps. To make ghosts with EMP you need to make barracks and then academy and tech lab (can be done simultaneously). TWO steps. Techlab is pretty much made along the way anyway, while the requisite buildings for HTs are often a weaker choice (at least in the short term) than the colossus route. Spellcasters don't exist in a closed ecosystem. Weakening Templar doesn't make them equal to ghosts*, it makes Protoss as a whole weaker. Terran bio ball rolls Protoss unless they have some form of AOE. There's only two options there, and Colossi are already considered the better choice (due to the need for observers, the min:gas ratio of colossus cost, the relative simplicity of killing things with colossi compared to storm, the likelihood that you'll simply die while waiting for HT to come online if you don't have colossi, and the general sturdiness of colossi compared to HT). I'm not saying Khaydarin Amulet is perfect the way it is, but removing it completely closes essentially half of Protoss's late game options. It diminishes variety which is already in short supply for Protoss and tells the Terran "you don't need to scout, colossi are definitely on the way, so go ahead and use that energy on a mule." IMO, Amulet isn't even the tipping point on which Protoss becomes imbalanced. If anything, it's the strength of a 200 food Protoss army compared to a 200 food Terran army, and even that is balanced by the strength of a 50 food Terran army over a 50 food Protoss army. Finally, if Blizzard somehow didn't see HT warp in coming and that's ruining balance by itself, when will they admit that they didn't see Conc Shell kiting or Stim kiting coming and take those out too? /rant on: *Ghosts aren't already better than High Templar? EMP does all its damage up front (up to 100) and nullifies all spellcasters in the area, whereas Psi Storm takes 4 seconds to do 80 damage IF the targets stay in the AOE. Templar need a different spell to nullify casters, and it only targets one, not to mention that every time you use it you're taking mana away from Psi Storm. Ghosts can spend 50 mana to kill a templar no matter what, or they can do it for free with a couple auto attacks, which even do bonus damage to High Templar. Ghosts can cloak. Ghosts have 100 life to HTs' 40+40. Ghosts smell nicer and women find them more attractive. Does all that outweigh the disadvantages of costing more minerals and not building instantly? (The ability to build remotely is an advantage given to the Protoss race, not specifically to HTs, and without Khaydarin Amulet, there's little incentive to build them remotely anyway.) In the very narrow, Ghosts-and-HTs-are-the-only-units-that-exist bubble, Ghosts are better. If you want to consider the two entire factions of Protoss and Terran and the unique strengths that HTs and Ghosts bring to them, then you need to ignore the OP's 1st point entirely. You also need to give Zealots guns so they can endlessly kite or shoot from behind a wall or up a cliff, because then "it will be definitely easier to balance game around that... rather than balancing game around one" unit getting free pot shots and the other taking a minute to chop through the bunker. /rant off ^ That is a MASSIVE first post. But, this is an "analysis" thread which I think requires looking at numbers to measure efficacy. Maybe it doesn't, but anything else is subjective and opinionated (which has its place in an argument for sure). Throughout this thread I've systematically compared spells and spell-casters from just about every angle. Comparing the Templar to the Ghost is silly, but happens all the time. As soon as you start pointing out things like I did below people instantly switch the argument to "unit roles" to defend the wildly huge disparity between casting delays after ordering respective spellcasters. On March 04 2011 04:20 TimeSpiral wrote: • Without the mobius reactor Terran waits 88 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The Ghost spawns from the Barracks in which is was ordered from. This is usually not where the Ghost needs to be. • With the mobius reactor Terran waits 40 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. • Without the KA Protoss waits 49 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The HT can be spawned anywhere a psi-field is present. • With the KA Protoss waits 5 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. I believe it is because of the Warpgate mechanic that the KA is not needed. contextual elaboration ... + Show Spoiler + It is, in fact, five seconds from when you order the HT from a Warpgate if you have the KA upgrade. No one can legitimately say that is incorrect. It is a minimum of 8 times faster than EMP, PDD, Hunter Seeker Missile, Yamato, Fungal, or Neural Parasite even when the Ghost, Raven, BC, or Infestor have their respective starting energy buffs. On March 04 2011 06:58 TimeSpiral wrote: Some do not see the logic in comparing "on demand abilities" and that's fine. We don't need to agree on that. You say you don't want "symmetry" you want balance, which while being kinda funny, is also fine. But aren't you essentially complaining that all other casters have a starting energy buff and so should the HT? lol. HTs are supposed to be stronger than Ghosts? Okay, that's fine again. Let's look at the Battlecruiser, which is supposed to be stronger than the HT, right? Or let's look at the Raven, sure. W/e. It doesn't matter. + Show Spoiler + Battlecrsuier EDIT: This was just to prove a silly point to someone thirty pages ago. • Without the energy upgrade one must wait 178 seconds to use the Yamato canon after ordering a battlecruiser. It is a single target DPS ability. • With the energy upgrade one must wait 223 seconds to use the Yamato canon after ordering a battlecruiser. It is a single target DPS ability. HA! Well, maybe the Raven is a closer comparison ... • Without the energy upgrade one must wait 178 seconds to use the Hunter Seeker Missile after ordering a raven. It is an AoE spell that does massive damage, and can be dodged. • With the energy upgrade one must wait 223 seconds to use the Hunter Seeker Missile after ordering a raven. It is an AoE spell that does massive damage, and can be dodged. Compare either one of those to the 5 second storm, the 88 seconds storm without the upgrade + full WG CD, or the worst case scenarios 50 second storm with the upgrade - not matter what angle you look at it from it is freaking ell oh ell. Making the comparison between on-demand spells is pretty logical, and it really doesn't matter which one you choose. Storm is the fastest by a million miles and everyone knows it. Even without the Amulet it is the fastest. Unit roles are important to analyze as well, from a rhetorical standpoint; The High Templar fulfills a DPS role, an energy nullification role, and eventually serves as a Tank with short ranged AoE damage w/ bonus to light which makes it a great extreme end game unit. The DPS roles for Terran shift as the game goes on versus Protoss. The Marine loses its efficacy in many scenarios where it is being neutralized by Protoss in which case the Ghost becomes the primary AoE DPS unit versus Protoss and also acts as an energy nullifier. So, they have similar roles, sure, but are very different units. The Raven is Terran's dedicated caster unit. The ultimate point is that while the HT takes long to rush to, it makes its way into late game just fine with very little strain on the Protoss economy or tech patterns. When it does make it on to the field the KA upgrade makes storm significantly faster (in some cases 30 times faster) than any of its counterparts. Even without the upgrade it is still one of, if not, the fastest on demand spell dedicated AoE damage spell. | ||
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jaiiiii
United States72 Posts
The protoss army is entirely dependent on AoE. For all of you out there who are thinking to yourself "Well Protoss techs to T3 real fast bc its really easy for them and their T3 is extremely powerful" please try playing Protoss for a bit on pure gateway units. We don't tech to T3 because its extremely effective, we tech to T3 because without it we will get destroyed. Any decent player will massacre you when they see that you have no AoE units to support your extremely weak gateway units (to argue otherwise is insane, gateway units on their own are great, but as the number of units increase they quickly lose value). So if the Protoss army is extremely dependent on AoE damage, why is removal of one of two techpaths a good thing? For that matter, why should any race be allowed to counter something blindly? If you want to get ghosts in anticipation of a big fight, great. They can still shoot. If you want to get a raven, great. Just throw down an autoturret and take advantage of it's ability to see cloaked units. If you want to get infestors, also great. Have them throw a few infested terran. If you want to get HT, great. Have them sit around and wait a minute while being relatively exposed to getting sniped by some ninja drop+t, or waste all their energy on feedbacking a medivac that will probably not have enough energy to die, can still pick up its units and fly away. I still can't understand how people are comparing caster to caster, it's not even apples to oranges. It's apples to computers, there's no relation. This is something that shouldn't be argued. All in all, this upgrade will severly hurt protoss. Opening up massive 45 second timing windows for terran to exploit where protoss can do nothing but warp in units that melt at the button press of 'T' is not how to fix the problem. Drop defense mightve been a bit too strong, but this is completely the wrong response by blizzard. And i'm really tired of reading so many people approving of this change without understanding the other implications for protoss and only worrying about how "my mineral line got stormed..OP!" or "my drop did nothing because i didn't micro out of the storm or just pick up my units and go elsewhere...OP!". | ||
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Big_Pete1999
United States22 Posts
On March 09 2011 23:32 jaiiiii wrote: I'm not a big fan of the cooldown argument or w/e, but this is just a wrong statement? ghosts can't be built out of a rax+reactor ( i hope that i'm not replying to sarcasm ). My sarcasm is broken. I just wanted to poke fun at his assumption that warpgates are the crutch for everything, and then not taking into account the cooldown etc.... If I was talking to you in person, you'd have picked up on it. Damn typing never brings my dry humor through  | ||
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Geovu
Estonia1344 Posts
On March 10 2011 00:15 TimeSpiral wrote: The ultimate point is that while the HT takes long to rush to, it makes its way into late game just fine with very little strain on the Protoss economy or tech patterns. When it does make it on to the field the KA upgrade makes storm significantly faster (in some cases 30 times faster) than any of its counterparts. Even without the upgrade it is still one of, if not, the fastest on demand spell dedicated AoE damage spell. Is there a problem with High Templar having "the fastest on demand spell dedicated AoE damage spell"? If Psi Storm didn't exist another spellcaster would get that title. Fungal growth and EMP don't even really compare, since they do things OTHER than pure damage, so have uses for things OTHER than killing shit. I don't understand why people are crying about how their own spellcasters are crap when compared to the other races' spellcasters. They look at the damage of fungal growth and say "Well psi storm is way better toss imba" or they look at the damage of EMP and say "It only works vs protoss and shield damage isn't REAL damage since they have 0 armor" without looking at the rest of the unit. Ghosts are fast, can cloak, if they are in a group can clear out mineral lines faster than a marine drop (Between their snipe or simply their high vs light damage), and you can get them very early on in the game. Infestors on creep are even faster than ghosts esp on creep, can be quite effective against mech play due to neural parasite, and can stop army movement, drop harass, and poking with a portion of one's army very risky. They are also arguably the best harassment unit in the game, considering they can burrow for invisibility and then if there aren't any combat units around can instantly demolish a mineral line of every single worker with fungal growth (Which IMO, in this situation is far stronger than psi storm because they cannot move their workers out of the fungal to save any). Technically they can also be built earlier than mutas can be, though that is not very practical in most situations. On the other hand, High Templar are the most fragile, slowest, and by far the most costly unit to get to. P.S. Build time comparisons are also pointless because of race mechanics. If gateway units really took 5 seconds to build than a 1 warp gate rush would be the most broken thing in the game, and high templar take the most resources and time to tech to. Ghosts are built out of tech lab'd rax, which you should have plenty of if you are being a good Terran and building plenty of marawders, and Infestors require the same requirements to build as a zergling after the tech buildings have been constructed. In PvT in particular you should not complain about them having tons of high templar since they cost the same amount of gas (Minerals are not an issue for Terran, don't argue that point srsly) as a ghost, so if you EMP 1 High Templar with 1 ghost you are already ahead since Toss relies on getting good storms off more than Terran relies on getting good EMPs off. | ||
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Touch
Canada475 Posts
On March 10 2011 03:11 Geovu wrote: One good Storm by Protoss wins you the battle. One good EMP can give you a chance of not losing your entire army. If you run out of EMPs, you retreat. Oh, not to mention you can get fresh Storms just by clicking W+T, while it takes 40 seconds to train a Ghost, and you still have to move it into position, just to buy a chance for you to save your army from being annihilated. so if you EMP 1 High Templar with 1 ghost you are already ahead since Toss relies on getting good storms off more than Terran relies on getting good EMPs off. Sound balanced? | ||
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TheAura
96 Posts
On March 10 2011 03:26 Touch wrote: One good Storm by Protoss wins you the battle. One good EMP can give you a chance of not losing your entire army. If you run out of EMPs, you retreat. Sound fair? i wouldnt say one storm could win the battle any more than one EMP hitting all toss' sentries or HTs can, but yes it does sound fair since HT's are more of an investment, and its only roll is dps, one of toss's tier 3 units compared to ghosts, tier 2 | ||
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fishinguy
Russian Federation798 Posts
On March 10 2011 03:26 Touch wrote: One good Storm by Protoss wins you the battle. One good EMP can give you a chance of not losing your entire army. If you run out of EMPs, you retreat. Sound fair? Or more like 1 good EMP will win you the battle but your weakened army will die to the next 3 templars that warp in and we are back to square one. | ||
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Touch
Canada475 Posts
On March 10 2011 03:34 TheAura wrote: Why not? Dead army compared to an army with half health. I'd gladly be on the Protoss side in this engagement. i wouldnt say one storm could win the battle any more than one EMP hitting all toss' sentries or HTs can, but yes it does sound fair since HT's are more of an investment, and its only roll is dps, one of toss's tier 3 units compared to ghosts, tier 2 | ||
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jaiiiii
United States72 Posts
On March 10 2011 03:26 Touch wrote: One good Storm by Protoss wins you the battle. One good EMP can give you a chance of not losing your entire army. If you run out of EMPs, you retreat. Sound fair? One good storm, despite everything, is not assured damage. One good EMP is assured damage + can nullify any spellcasters in its range. Despite this, the two are not worth comparing. This thread is about KA, not about storm. Don't run in with your accusations of storm vs. emp imbalance. There are a hundred other things that could be complained about from the other perspective, but they shouldn't because they aren't pertinent. | ||
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Scriptix
United States145 Posts
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