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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 09 2011 08:47 Sek-Kuar wrote:
So now it is that when Protoss comes, he has exact chance to win based on his level of preparation, compared to enemy level of praparation - ultimately this is competitive game. But when Terran comes, its no longer true, competitive or not, Protoss can adjust his win chance in last moment.
you talk like terran has no way to prevent HTs in general that certainly isn't true.
Understand what Day9 means when he talks about optimal Attack sizes,
A big ball of Bio by design dies fast to storms cause the units are so small so storm of course effects bio alot more. Terran on the other side has cheaper and faster unit producing capacity.
just to count some ways to make HTs less efficient:
- Snipe Templar Archives
- Get Cloak and flank with ghosts.
- Harass Gas Lines to starve gas
- Spread Units (like against banelings; or like Protoss has to against EMP)
if you win a decisive battle against such a composition is it good play to run into an expansion where obviously Storms are waiting? hell no
Why not retreat and macro up? and get more ahead, replenish Ghosts build more durable units etc.
Overpowered would be something that isn't stopable by all means.
Like Reapers were against Zerg and such.
But Terran has no options to deal with a lategame option of P that is only safe to tech really late in the game?
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On March 09 2011 08:47 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 08:38 freetgy wrote:On March 09 2011 08:31 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Its easy now - if Protoss comes with HTs in PvT, and Terran doesnt have enough Ghosts, Protoss will mostlikely win. But if Terran comes with Ghosts in TvP, and Protoss doesnt have enough HTs, he can instantly fix his mistake and Warp-In more - saving mostlikely 60-90 seconds that Terran would need to fix his wrong decision.
i guess Protoss is warping the gas needed for HTs from the mothership eh? Protoss is already limited by gas, and going HT from 2 bases is ALL-IN even 3 Base is debateble. Just because Warpgate always such doesn't mean you can do it everytime. Why shouldn't Terran have to scout and play properly and adept i don't get it. Watch Dreamhack finals for godsake, Despite Mana having Colossus & HT he barely survived against Naamas Bio/Tank/Ghost it is just pure bullshit, that warp-in storms = gg http://sc2casts.com/cast1614-MaNa-vs-Naama-Best-of-5-DreamHack-Finalshere day9 already proves you wrong... http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4807584/Mass Marines against Storms and it works very well. So Storm isn't the Problem not even Warp-In is the Problem, it is the player that refuses to adapt that is the problem. To make you and other who believe that this change is about balancing game happy - I changed what I wrote. So now it is that when Protoss comes, he has exact chance to win based on his level of preparation, compared to enemy level of praparation - ultimately this is competitive game. But when Terran comes, its no longer true, competitive or not, Protoss can adjust his win chance in last moment.
The difference is that HT aren't really the counter to ghosts. In most PvT matchups, you won't see a Protoss player build HT just to deal with ghosts. Essentially, HT force a response from Terran, while ghosts force Protoss to micro better or bait EMPs. I don't really think it's fair to treat ghosts solely as a counter to HT, as they cause a lot of damage with a single hit.
The other part of it is that it doesn't give an equal win chance if the casters are both prepared beforehand. The casters simply do not play the same role in the army. It's like if I made Thors take an equal amount of tech as Colossi. People would still push for the colossi first as Protoss non-core units are dps, while core units are meatshields. The opposite is true for Terran.
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On March 09 2011 09:02 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 08:47 Sek-Kuar wrote:
So now it is that when Protoss comes, he has exact chance to win based on his level of preparation, compared to enemy level of praparation - ultimately this is competitive game. But when Terran comes, its no longer true, competitive or not, Protoss can adjust his win chance in last moment. you talk like terran has no way to prevent HTs in general that certainly isn't true. Understand what Day9 means when he talks about optimal Attack sizes, A big ball of Bio by design dies fast to storms cause the units are so small so storm of course effects bio alot more. Terran on the other side has cheaper and faster unit producing capacity. just to count some ways to make HTs less efficient: - Snipe Templar Archives - Get Cloak and flank with ghosts. - Harass Gas Lines to starve gas if you win a decisive battle against such a composition is it good play to run into an expansion where obviously Storms are waiting? hell no Why not retreat and macro up? and get more ahead, replenish Ghosts build more durable units etc. Overpowered would be something that isn't stopable by all means. Like Reapers were against Zerg and such. But Terran has no options to deal with a lategame option of P that is only safe to tech really late in the game?
You are exactly person I was thinking about when I was writing this:
+ Show Spoiler +This is something I noticed while ago, and what frankly isnt so sumprising to me - when I said that removing amulet is good thing, a lot people OFC responded that protoss need it - but when I said that storm could be rebalanced around removed amulet, they simply didnt want it.
Because its always better to have weaker storm, that can be used well even if you make several mistakes, miss key timings, plan poorly and make a lot of bad decisions...
...compared to stronger storm, which is more skill-dependent and requires better understanding to game.
At least for lower players.
You are claming that you want balance, but no... All you want is ability to fix your nooby mistakes in 5 seconds.
This is RTS game. Its based around plans, scouting and preparation. If Protoss like you can recognize his mistake 10 seconds before enemy arrives, when T or Z players would lose, and save the situation, its simply not right.
So you can keep your balancing discusion, but balance is not important here.
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On March 09 2011 09:17 Sek-Kuar wrote:
You are claming that you want balance, but no... All you want is ability to fix your nooby mistakes in 5 seconds.
Getting Personal won't help your credibility.
You are claiming that it will get balanced by doing this and not i.
i say it won't cause Races should play different that it is this what makes races different from each other. (be it larva, be it mules ,be it warp in)
But you disregard that what happens before those casters comes out for each races.
You can't balance a game by just picking 3 units and do some flawed math behind it.
That would only work if each race played same in every part of the game, and that isn't the case.
period.
You insist by doing this production capability will be even so it will be more balanced.
Is this the case for every other unit too?
no it isn't?
why?
because races play different, what your assumption does.
is by making races play more similiar it will be more balanced.(possible, how can that be a good goal)
But that is the point we don't want the races to play the same at everytime.
Every Unit is imbalanced in this sense cause no other race has an exact counterpart but they have tools to deal with it.(Bio-> HT,Colossus; Stalker->Marauder, Roach->Immortal an vice versa)
Question is only have the other races good ways to deal with that if scouted and reacted properly.
And this certainly is the case for terran.
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On March 09 2011 09:19 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 09:17 Sek-Kuar wrote:
You are claming that you want balance, but no... All you want is ability to fix your nooby mistakes in 5 seconds.
Getting Personal won't help your credibility. You are claiming that it will get balanced by doing this and not i. i say it won't cause Races should play different that it is this what makes races different from each other. But you disregard that what happens before those casters comes out for each races, you can't balance a game by just picking one unit and do some flawed math behind it. That would only work if each race played same in every part of the game, and that isn't the case. period. You insist by doing this production capability will even so it will be more balanced. Is this the case for every other unit too? no it isn't? why? because races play different, what your assumption does. is by making races play more similiar it will be more balanced. But that is the point we don't want the races to play the same at everytime. Every Unit is imbalanced in this sence cause no other race has an exact counterpart. Question is only have the other races to deal with that properly if scouted and reacted properly. And this certainly is the case.
I said in OP something about balance, and later I said it was mistake, because I actually meant that it is going to put same skill requirements for caster usage. In post you are responding to I didnt said that it is going to help balance. I said it has nothing to do with balance.
If you want, Ill say this:
It is possible that removing KA is going to imbalance game.
Still it doesnt change *fact* that it has to be done. Not because of balance, but because its wrong mechanic. Adjusting Storm damage is balancing, keeping KA in game and allowing Protoss noobs to fix their poor play in 5 seconds is simply stupid.
And if by races are different you mean that Protoss making mistakes can win games and Z/T making mistakes will always lose, and claming that is correct way to make game, then say it right now so I know that I dont even have to bother reading your posts.
On March 09 2011 09:05 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 08:47 Sek-Kuar wrote:On March 09 2011 08:38 freetgy wrote:On March 09 2011 08:31 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Its easy now - if Protoss comes with HTs in PvT, and Terran doesnt have enough Ghosts, Protoss will mostlikely win. But if Terran comes with Ghosts in TvP, and Protoss doesnt have enough HTs, he can instantly fix his mistake and Warp-In more - saving mostlikely 60-90 seconds that Terran would need to fix his wrong decision.
i guess Protoss is warping the gas needed for HTs from the mothership eh? Protoss is already limited by gas, and going HT from 2 bases is ALL-IN even 3 Base is debateble. Just because Warpgate always such doesn't mean you can do it everytime. Why shouldn't Terran have to scout and play properly and adept i don't get it. Watch Dreamhack finals for godsake, Despite Mana having Colossus & HT he barely survived against Naamas Bio/Tank/Ghost it is just pure bullshit, that warp-in storms = gg http://sc2casts.com/cast1614-MaNa-vs-Naama-Best-of-5-DreamHack-Finalshere day9 already proves you wrong... http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4807584/Mass Marines against Storms and it works very well. So Storm isn't the Problem not even Warp-In is the Problem, it is the player that refuses to adapt that is the problem. To make you and other who believe that this change is about balancing game happy - I changed what I wrote. So now it is that when Protoss comes, he has exact chance to win based on his level of preparation, compared to enemy level of praparation - ultimately this is competitive game. But when Terran comes, its no longer true, competitive or not, Protoss can adjust his win chance in last moment. The difference is that HT aren't really the counter to ghosts. In most PvT matchups, you won't see a Protoss player build HT just to deal with ghosts. Essentially, HT force a response from Terran, while ghosts force Protoss to micro better or bait EMPs. I don't really think it's fair to treat ghosts solely as a counter to HT, as they cause a lot of damage with a single hit. The other part of it is that it doesn't give an equal win chance if the casters are both prepared beforehand. The casters simply do not play the same role in the army. It's like if I made Thors take an equal amount of tech as Colossi. People would still push for the colossi first as Protoss non-core units are dps, while core units are meatshields. The opposite is true for Terran.
Yeah I agree with you, but its best example to show how wrong that mechanic is. Its not really balancing.
The point is that when Terran scout Protoss and see HT, he get exact amount of Ghost based on his expectations. Later if he realizes that his expectations were too low and enemy has more HTs than he can EMP, he has at least problem or even lose.
And this is spirit of RTS - plans, scouting, decisions and recognizing enemy plan.
But Protoss can have HTs, and Terran get Ghost to EMP them. If Protoss then realize that he made not anough HTs to cast at least some storms, he can fix it almost instantly.
And thats not good for RTS.
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On March 09 2011 09:36 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Still it doesnt change *fact* that it has to be done. Not because of balance, but because its wrong mechanic. Adjusting Storm damage is balancing, keeping KA in game and allowing Protoss noobs to fix their poor play in 5 seconds is simply stupid.
how do you measure a "wrong mechanic" this just reads...
why isn't larva a wrong mechanic?
why isn't the absurd easy techtree from Terran a wrong mechanic?
why isn't everything a wrong mechanic, that makes a race different from another?
This just shows you have a hard time dealing with Storms/Warp-In-Storms thus plz blizzard remove it from the game so i have an easier time and don't have to make better decisions.
by your logic the complete removal of KA will make the game better.
so you should also be against any from of slightly adjusted KA (cause your numbers say so)
let me say this:
The game is won by the one who makes less wrong decisions, if you go into an area knowing warp-in storms will wipe you out and you didn't prepare for it despite knowing it, it is your poor decision that makes you lose, not the mechanic.
Adapt and play accordingly.
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On March 09 2011 09:36 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Still it doesnt change *fact* that it has to be done. Not because of balance, but because its wrong mechanic. Adjusting Storm damage is balancing, keeping KA in game and allowing Protoss noobs to fix their poor play in 5 seconds is simply stupid.
[Satire]
Still doesn't change the *fact* that it has to be done. Not because of balance, but because it's the wrong mechanic. Adjusting Zerg unit stats is balancing, but keeping larva in the game and allowing Zerg to fix their poor play by instant tech switching is simply stupid.
[/Satire]
Protoss has been redesigned and balanced(1) around warping in Gateway units. Your argument appears to be that the whole Protoss mechanic of warping in is the problem, in which case Psi-Storm and Khaydarin Amulet are not the problem so arguing about their stats/place in the game is a mistake.
1 - It seems commonly accepted that not everything is balanced yet and this is ongoing, but Protoss is not massively imbalanced right now.
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On March 09 2011 09:49 freetgy wrote:
The game is won by the one who makes less wrong decisions, if you go into an area knowing warp-in storms will wipe you out and you didn't prepare for it despite knowing it, it is your poor decision that makes you lose, not the mechanic.
Adapt and play accordingly.
Do you know what is flaw in your.. ehm.. "logic"?
This:
On March 09 2011 09:36 Sek-Kuar wrote:
The point is that when Terran scout Protoss and see HT, he get exact amount of Ghost based on his expectations. Later if he realizes that his expectations were too low and enemy has more HTs than he can EMP, he has at least problem or even lose.
And this is spirit of RTS - plans, scouting, decisions and recognizing enemy plan.
But Protoss can have HTs, and Terran get Ghost to EMP them. If Protoss then realize that he made not anough HTs to cast at least some storms, he can fix it almost instantly.
And thats not good for RTS.
Every player is in point when he knows that enemy can get unit that counter what he has, but the point is that every T/Z player has to prepare, while P can magically fix get it.
Point is that when Terran player *expect* Protoss to do X, and his expectation is incorrect, he has problem.
But when Protoss *expect* Terran player to do Y, and his expectation is incorrect, he still has chance to solve it.
Expect is key word here. Key part of RTS gaming - expectations based on scouting and planning, with correct decision making = RTS spirit. KA + Warp-In (bigger part is Warp-In) is removing part of it. Thats what makes it wrong mechanic.
I said thousands times that Storm can be buffed. It can be changed so you wont even need that extra storms to have same effect, balanced around HTs w/o KA - why dont you want it?
Because then it would actually require some skills to be prepared right? Mystery revealed.
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blizzard did the wrong thing
should not have removed an upgrade should have nerfed the upgrade so the storm isnt instant
making ht wait forever to cast a single spell is retarded. leaves giant timing windows for your armies to get roflstomped.
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I'm a Protoss, so i'm pretty biased, but I haven't been able to grasp why terrans are so against KA. Ghosts are SUCH a good counter to HT. Warpin and all.
God forbid terrans actually have to use a micro intensive unit to win a battle.
Removing KA means HT's are almost useless (forcing Colossus more play), and if you do use them, it's just another instance where toss micro needs to be impeccable to actually win.
Stockpiling a bunch of HT's in your base untill you have enough energy, only for them to get emp'd, seems like a pointless waste of cash for such a huge risk, when warp in HT's already get emp'd quite effectively.
Just make the KA a faster recharge of energy, or remove it, and make a 5 / 10 second cool down time before a storm can be cast after a warpin.
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On March 09 2011 10:04 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 09:49 freetgy wrote:
The game is won by the one who makes less wrong decisions, if you go into an area knowing warp-in storms will wipe you out and you didn't prepare for it despite knowing it, it is your poor decision that makes you lose, not the mechanic.
Adapt and play accordingly. Do you know what is flaw in your.. ehm.. "logic"? This: Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 09:36 Sek-Kuar wrote:
The point is that when Terran scout Protoss and see HT, he get exact amount of Ghost based on his expectations. Later if he realizes that his expectations were too low and enemy has more HTs than he can EMP, he has at least problem or even lose.
And this is spirit of RTS - plans, scouting, decisions and recognizing enemy plan.
But Protoss can have HTs, and Terran get Ghost to EMP them. If Protoss then realize that he made not anough HTs to cast at least some storms, he can fix it almost instantly.
And thats not good for RTS. Every player is in point when he knows that enemy can get unit that counter what he has, but the point is that every T/Z player has to prepare, while P can magically fix get it. Point is that when Terran player *expect* Protoss to do X, and his expectation is incorrect, he has problem. But when Protoss *expect* Terran player to do Y, and his expectation is incorrect, he still has chance to solve it. Expect is key word here. Key part of RTS gaming - expectations based on scouting and planning, with correct decision making = RTS spirit. KA + Warp-In (bigger part is Warp-In) is removing part of it. Thats what makes it wrong mechanic. I said thousands times that Storm can be buffed. It can be changed so you wont even need that extra storms to have same effect, balanced around HTs w/o KA - why dont you want it? Because then it would actually require some skills to be prepared right? Mystery revealed.
We'd be happy to have a scary storm, but that isn't what Blizzard is going to do. According to this patch, all that's changing is the Khydarian amulet being removed. Is there a possibility that Blizzard will buff storm? Yes. However, this doesn't really help in the situation we anticipate.
It's similar to if Blizzard simply removed the ability to reactor Vikings (say, make them require a tech lab). Yes, they could be buffing the speed and damage in a future patch, but in the meantime, Terran is going to roll over and die to Colossus play without substantial changes in playstyle.
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On March 09 2011 10:04 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Every player is in point when he knows that enemy can get unit that counter what he has, but the point is that every T/Z player has to prepare, while P can magically fix get it.
Point is that when Terran player *expect* Protoss to do X, and his expectation is incorrect, he has problem.
But when Protoss *expect* Terran player to do Y, and his expectation is incorrect, he still has chance to solve it.
Expect is key word here. Key part of RTS gaming - expectations based on scouting and planning, with correct decision making = RTS spirit. KA + Warp-In (bigger part is Warp-In) is removing part of it. Thats what makes it wrong mechanic.
I'm not sure how you can say something like this. If terran makes a mistake, he either
a) outright loses because the problem was a really big one (e.g. getting no AA against a purely air army)
b) it is a small problem that cost him (not getting enough ghosts for emps, not getting ur tanks sieged in time, etc etc).
If it is not case (a), then of course the player has a chance to fix his mistakes. At the late stages of the game we're talking about, most decent terran will be able to remacro a sizeable army relatively smoothly, plus any good player will quickly understand his mistake and try to minimize his losses. In fact, the responsibility of making the terran lose in situation (b) falls to the other player, to capitalize on their advantage in some way, whether it be through taking the advantage and taking another base, or building up a sizeable force and then making another push.
In the case of a protoss, the same two situations can happen, and once again, it falls on the other player (in this case the terran) to capitalize on the advantage gained. If you are aware that the protoss is capable of getting a storm or two warped in, why are you throwing your advantage away?
Everyone should be able to judge "well I don't have enough units, I can't attack this pf". At the same time, it should be completely obvious to any terran that "warp-in storm is available, i can't attack (or if i do i have a small window or need to place my entire focus on microing out of the storms."
I understand that you believe that sc2 should be decided by expectation+preparation. Nothing in the current game changes that. If a protoss is underprepared for the big fight, he will lose that fight. if a terran is underprepared, he too will lose that fight. But that expectation and preparation shouldn't be before the fight only. It should be after, when a player is expected to capitalize on his advantage.
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On March 09 2011 10:20 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 10:04 Sek-Kuar wrote:On March 09 2011 09:49 freetgy wrote:
The game is won by the one who makes less wrong decisions, if you go into an area knowing warp-in storms will wipe you out and you didn't prepare for it despite knowing it, it is your poor decision that makes you lose, not the mechanic.
Adapt and play accordingly. Do you know what is flaw in your.. ehm.. "logic"? This: On March 09 2011 09:36 Sek-Kuar wrote:
The point is that when Terran scout Protoss and see HT, he get exact amount of Ghost based on his expectations. Later if he realizes that his expectations were too low and enemy has more HTs than he can EMP, he has at least problem or even lose.
And this is spirit of RTS - plans, scouting, decisions and recognizing enemy plan.
But Protoss can have HTs, and Terran get Ghost to EMP them. If Protoss then realize that he made not anough HTs to cast at least some storms, he can fix it almost instantly.
And thats not good for RTS. Every player is in point when he knows that enemy can get unit that counter what he has, but the point is that every T/Z player has to prepare, while P can magically fix get it. Point is that when Terran player *expect* Protoss to do X, and his expectation is incorrect, he has problem. But when Protoss *expect* Terran player to do Y, and his expectation is incorrect, he still has chance to solve it. Expect is key word here. Key part of RTS gaming - expectations based on scouting and planning, with correct decision making = RTS spirit. KA + Warp-In (bigger part is Warp-In) is removing part of it. Thats what makes it wrong mechanic. I said thousands times that Storm can be buffed. It can be changed so you wont even need that extra storms to have same effect, balanced around HTs w/o KA - why dont you want it? Because then it would actually require some skills to be prepared right? Mystery revealed. We'd be happy to have a scary storm, but that isn't what Blizzard is going to do. According to this patch, all that's changing is the Khydarian amulet being removed. Is there a possibility that Blizzard will buff storm? Yes. However, this doesn't really help in the situation we anticipate. It's similar to if Blizzard simply removed the ability to reactor Vikings (say, make them require a tech lab). Yes, they could be buffing the speed and damage in a future patch, but in the meantime, Terran is going to roll over and die to Colossus play without substantial changes in playstyle.
Well I really dont think that most Protoss would be happy, becuase it would make storm usage a lot harder in terms of planning and preparation, and thus harder for about 90% of player base.
But I sirencely expect to buff storm later. Or at least I hope, because another otpion would be to simply revert this change, which would be easire solution but its not corrent in RTS sense. And I wouldnt be afraid they will do one or that, because storm IMO isnt as strong as it should be, IMO FG is actually better skill and even lower tech.
Logic says that you can not change 2 things at once related to one issue, because you wouldnt recognize which one has effect, and how much.
I simply hope that in next patch we will see storm buff instead of reverting KA.
@jaiiiii:
I dont agree with you, because what you described like "exclusively Terran thing" is common for all races.
Protoss just have advantage that if they underestimate lets say enemy marine count just slightly, they can warp-in HTs to neuttralize their mistake.
Terrans can not do this. If they underestime enemy HT count and dont have enough Ghosts to EMP all of them, they have to face consequences of it.
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seems like its easy for terran to overlook the general absurdity of bio dps causing the need for both zerg and protoss to have AoE at their fingertips.
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If you remove KA, please add upgrade for EMP and make it expensive. Or lower the time storm is researched or lower the price.
Removing it is a horrible idea, in my opinion. Protoss simply wouldn't have a harassing unit that can kill lots of SCVs in small amount of time like helions...
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instead of making this patch a nerf, why not make it a balanced change? I say we make the best of a bad situation, and we should all band together and start dozens of threads demanding some kind of of positive change for the HT's.
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On March 09 2011 08:31 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 07:28 W2 wrote:
This bandwagon stuff could also have been influenced by casters too. Before, artosis would say "Khaydarin amulet is the most critical upgrade if you are trying to incorporate high templar". After blizzard released the patch notes, it turns into "KA is pretty ridiculous if you think about it". And this has happened to the majority of the people here.
GSL 1-4 stats:
PvT 72-91 44.2% Well perhaps it is because it really is ridiculous? Everyone think that every change has to related to balance. But why? Sometimes its not about balancing, but about making game better by changing mechanics - Blizzard was *forced* to add some interesting mechanics to SC2, because there were already thousands of RTS games. Nobody except really hardcore gamers would buy SC2 if it was like some game from 1998 with that UI, mechanics and everything, just better graphic and new story. But it doesnt mean that everything new they added to game is something good to balance game around. Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 11:15 Sek-Kuar wrote:
There is very important and fundamental question to ask.
Lets say, that Zergs have problems with banshee (or VR) builds. So there are 2 approach to this, harder and easier.
Harder way to balance would be changing banshees and/or queens, based on relations with other units too, leading into better balanced state, where zerg could defend it easier.
Easier way would be to remove part of planning & decision making - one of most important aspects of RTS gaming - and simply make queen build time 5 seconds, starting energy 100 for couple of transfusions, maybe increase range/regen rate... And it would became seemingly balanced too.
The problem with this easier approach is that it is bad for game. It makes game less about planning, less about decisions making, even less about scouting - killing core fundaments of RTS gaming.
This is something I noticed while ago, and what frankly isnt so sumprising to me - when I said that removing amulet is good thing, a lot people OFC responded that protoss need it - but when I said that storm could be rebalanced around removed amulet, they simply didnt want it.
Because its always better to have weaker storm, that can be used well even if you make several mistakes, miss key timings, plan poorly and make a lot of bad decisions...
...compared to stronger storm, which is more skill-dependent and requires better understanding to game.
At least for lower players.
As I said before, people overrate balance. Give me 10 seconds, let me make patch, it will have single line of patch changes, and game will be 100% balanced. But nobody will play it anymore.
Balance is not as important as mechanics around which is established.
Warp-in and KA combo is bad mechanics. One of them, either KA or warp-in, has to go. And this is true, no matter whether it is going to imbalance or balance game. People dont want to hear about KA removal even when it would be eventually followed by Storm buff - and why? Because it would simply make lategame harder - but not necessarily because of changing efectivness, but because of changing preparation, scouting, decision etc. requirements. Its easy now - if Protoss comes with HTs in PvT, and Terran doesnt have enough Ghosts, Protoss has exact chance to win, based on competitive preparation for this final moment. But if Terran comes with Ghosts in TvP, and Protoss doesnt have enough HTs, he can instantly fix his mistake and Warp-In more - saving mostlikely 60-90 seconds that Terran would need to fix his wrong decision. So why the hell are you talking about balance? Assuming that lategame HTs are balanced right now, then this - nerf - is OFC going to make game imbalanced. Even then, it is still good for this game. And Storm can be buffed later... But ability to fix so many wrong decisions in 5 seconds is not good for any RTS game.
You make it sound as though we are playing fastest-map possible. We're talking about standard 1v1 where gas is limited. And in the situation when both the terran and protoss are both pumping their gas into HT/ghosts, the protoss needs the extra 2-3 warp-in storms, since the EMP AOE just nullifies way too much.
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Its easy now - if Protoss comes with HTs in PvT, and Terran doesnt have enough Ghosts, Protoss has exact chance to win, based on competitive preparation for this final moment. But if Terran comes with Ghosts in TvP, and Protoss doesnt have enough HTs, he can instantly fix his mistake and Warp-In more - saving mostlikely 60-90 seconds that Terran would need to fix his wrong decision.
Yes, that's assuming the protoss magically has a twilight council, templar archives, storm, and khaydarin amulet researched. Takes a lot more than the 60-90 seconds to get a ghost don't you think?
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Maybe I lost track of what has been said in the 917 posts before mine, BUT....
If it takes 49.5 seconds (5 second warp, 44.5 second energy charging) to make a Templar, you MUST include the cooldown time. Why do I say this? Because, you can't discount it.
If a marine pops from the baracks, it takes 45 seconds to build a fully charged ghost...
If a zealot pops from a warpgate, it takes the cooldown time + warp in time, which comes to around 45-50 seconds to warp in your HT. And only if you have the KA is that able to storm. If you remove the KA, then after that zealot pops, you have the cooldown time + warp in time + 44 seconds. So in a sense, you have to wait almost a minute and a half to get a charged up HT from the last time a unit was made from that warpgate.
Another question is this.... The infester takes 50 seconds to produce, and once produced, it's ready. A ghost takes 45 seconds to produce, and then it's ready.... What if you DON'T get a warpgate? Before you say "you always get warpgates", as yourself this... what if you didn't get a warpgate? Then you have a 55 second build time for a HT. If you have the amulet, it'll be ready to storm once it is built. If you remove amulet, then you have a 55 second build time AND you need a 44.5 second charge time. That's 100 seconds, OVER A MINUTE AND A HALF to get a HT with 1 storm worth of energy.
That is why you can't compare the 3 race's casters. They are all completely different.
convert larva to infester, it will be ready to use in 50 seconds
hit the build tab for ghost and it will be ready to use in 45 seconds
Hit the build tab for HT and without the amulet it will be ready to use in 100 seconds
one of these things is not like the other... one of these things just doesn't belong!
Keeping the amulet, and the HT will be ready in 55 seconds, so still 10 seconds slower than Ghost and only 5 seconds slower than infester. You can not give out times because of the assumption that you have an unused warpgate, already cooled down, and a perfectly placed pylon that isn't being destroyed in the middle of a battle.
This isn't a vacuum, the game doesn't work that way.
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On March 09 2011 10:30 Sek-Kuar wrote:
@jaiiiii:
I dont agree with you, because what you described like "exclusively Terran thing" is common for all races.
Protoss just have advantage that if they underestimate lets say enemy marine count just slightly, they can warp-in HTs to neuttralize their mistake.
Terrans can not do this. If they underestime enemy HT count and dont have enough Ghosts to EMP all of them, they have to face consequences of it.
Question: isn't this the same as saying that Terran Scans need to be nerfed because if a Protoss or Zerg gets DT rushed and has no available detection (Cannons, Robotics Facility, Spore Crawlers, Lair) due to misjudging their opponent's build they 'have to face the consequences of it', but if Terrans without an Engineering Bay or Raven do so, they can just scan 'to neutralise their mistake'?
Different races have different abilities. High Templar are a significant tech investment, of course they're powerful, otherwise what would be the point of that investment?
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EPT
