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On March 04 2011 03:08 The KY wrote:
People like the compare storm to EMP unfavourably, but as far as I know EMP has never killed an army 3 times the size.
I'm sorry, but what is this obsession with EMP not killing anything?
Sure, it is true, it won't kill any single unit, but a good EMP may cost you the whole game. Add the fact, that it can't be dodged, Ghost have longer range than HT's and they can also cloak and we have a potential game breaker, if the KA is actually removed.
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On March 04 2011 03:17 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 03:12 TimeSpiral wrote:On March 04 2011 01:43 Zinjil wrote:On March 04 2011 01:04 TimeSpiral wrote:
That is slow! Wow.
But, I'm not a huge fan of manipulation spells in this game anyway (mostly because I play Terran and we don't have any). I understand that c-shells are a manipulation spell but it is much less potent than "create terrain" or "hold person".
I don't think any spell should be instant cast. Coming from a DnD background ALL spells have a downside or penalty to using them and that is what balances their power; casting times, side effects like fatigue, in some cases if you could not concentrate you could not even cast the spell! Point defense drone counts as a manipulation spell, doesn't it? And even apart from that it could be argued that snipe, auto-turret, and hunter-seeker missile are just as effective as any manipulation spell T could have otherwise, as non-supply based damage is a huge deal. It may not be "create terrain" or "hold person" but "kill unit" and "nullify missilies" and "destroy mana and shields" seems to work just fine for terran casters. The only manipulation ability that Terran has is Concussive Shells, which is the least potent manipulation ability/spell in the game, yet everyone (all non-Terrans) seems to think it is wildly imba (maybe it is, who knows). Manipulation spells are characterized by spells/effects like; entangle, ensnare, hold person, create terrain, blind, etc ... The manipulation aspect of the spell does not cause damage, while some higher level manip. spells do start to add damage or other damage-related effects like "drain mana, damage hp, etc ..." It's not the concussive shells themselves that are so strong, it's the ridiculously fast upgrade speed and the absurdly cheap cost (50/50) to get them, so you can do really quick rushes with small groups of marauders, and kite groups of units to death forever, easily doing way way more damage than you should. I'm pretty sure everyone would be completely fine with concussive shells and have no issue with them if they took longer to research, even at the cheap cost. Even in the late game, marauders could kite zealots forever (even with charge) and never get hit. Fortunately, they're buffing charge to not suck horribly anymore, so it won't be so bad.
I apologize, but your response is just veering so far off topic ... I realize Protoss players hate C-Shells. That is not the point I was trying to make.
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On March 04 2011 03:12 TimeSpiral wrote:
The only manipulation ability that Terran has is Concussive Shells, which is the least potent manipulation ability/spell in the game, yet everyone (all non-Terrans) seems to think it is wildly imba (maybe it is, who knows).
Manipulation spells are characterized by spells/effects like; entangle, ensnare, hold person, create terrain, blind, etc ... The manipulation aspect of the spell does not cause damage, while some higher level manip. spells do start to add damage or other damage-related effects like "drain mana, damage hp, etc ..."
So what are you trying to argue here? that terran needs something that has one of these effects, or that they're too powerful for the zerg and the protoss to have them? It seems like terran non-caster units control terrain features perfectly well without force fields or fungal growths on their casters.
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On March 04 2011 03:19 Vardant wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 03:08 The KY wrote:
People like the compare storm to EMP unfavourably, but as far as I know EMP has never killed an army 3 times the size. I'm sorry, but what is this obsession with EMP not killing anything? Sure, it is true, it won't kill any single unit, but a good EMP may cost you the whole game. Add the fact, that it can't be dodged, Ghost have longer range than HT's and they can also cloak and we have a potential game breaker, if the KA is actually removed.
You misunderstand me. What I mean to say is EMP can decide battles, and therefore games. Storm, in my experience, can do that but also decimate armies multiple times the size of protoss'. It can turn a game you are winning into a fucking bloodbath.
I don't think cloak is really relevant to the discussion as it's a heavy investment for a big risk, considering any protoss worth his salt has observers out PvT.
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On March 04 2011 03:43 Zinjil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 03:12 TimeSpiral wrote:
The only manipulation ability that Terran has is Concussive Shells, which is the least potent manipulation ability/spell in the game, yet everyone (all non-Terrans) seems to think it is wildly imba (maybe it is, who knows).
Manipulation spells are characterized by spells/effects like; entangle, ensnare, hold person, create terrain, blind, etc ... The manipulation aspect of the spell does not cause damage, while some higher level manip. spells do start to add damage or other damage-related effects like "drain mana, damage hp, etc ..." So what are you trying to argue here? that terran needs something that has one of these effects, or that they're too powerful for the zerg and the protoss to have them? It seems like terran non-caster units control terrain features perfectly well without force fields or fungal growths on their casters.
That particular post was in response to you saying PDD, Auto-Turrets, and HSM spells, or things that control space like Siege Tanks or PFs should "count" as Manipulation spells, so I just wanted to clarify what I meant by manip. spells.
Defending an area with things that cause damage, like Siege Tanks, PFs, and auto-turrets are definitely not 'manipulation spells'. It's just having a defense.
Now your comment about PDD is interesting. It is manipulating a certain type of missile attack and does remind me of a certain manipulation spell called "missile snaring." So I guess in a sense the PDD is also a manipulation spell but one that does not effect enemy units.
By saying "mitigating damage potential by missile attacks for a brief period in a small area is a manipulation spell" you start treading water. With that type of classification you start considering things like Guardian shield and armor upgrades. I don't really want to go there.
Force Field, Graviton Beam, Vortex, Fungal Growth, and Concussive Shells are the only true manipulation abilities in the game, in my opinion. I don't think it can really be argued that concussive shells is far and away the least potent one.
And to go on record, I actually do think that the manipulation abilities are way, way too much in Protoss's favor right now, Zerg being second, Terran being last.
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^^ Not even attempting to paint the full picture. Terran doesn't need "manipulation spells" nearly as much as other races due to their absurd mobility and harass capabilities.
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On March 04 2011 01:15 Offhand wrote:
EMP should either be dodgable or turned into a drain rather then an instant "all your shit is gone" mechanic. It would actually make PvT ghost vs ht interesting.
At first i wanted to agree with this ... but then I realized if it was a drain it would give Protoss to much time to get the storm off. If this were the case I would just go mass medivac to counter HT's. As of now it is a race to see who gets who first, which is much more interesting IMHO.
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On March 04 2011 03:46 The KY wrote:I don't think cloak is really relevant to the discussion as it's a heavy investment for a big risk, considering any protoss worth his salt has observers out PvT.
I think the fact, that you need to research Storm and then KA pretty much evens this out.
T players usually scout ahead with ghost, if they have cloak and if they have a Raven, it's lights out for the Obs. Not to mention, that you can actually EMP the Obs.
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a new version?
lets see what are they going to remove this time
my guess is thermal lance or maybe warp gate tech
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On March 04 2011 00:21 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 00:18 flodeskum wrote:On March 03 2011 23:37 TimeSpiral wrote:
So, if Blink stalkers can all of the sudden dodge Fungal Growth, wouldn't it be equally possible to dodge EMP? From the videos I've seen of the fungal projectile it is considerably slower than an emp. It's also a lot more visible, an emp looks like the ghost is throwing an empty coke bottle at you so it's quite hard to spot but the fungal growth is a shiny green blob. I have not seen a video. Anyone have one? I can only imagine the spell projectiles all sharing the same movement speed. Anything else would be silly, barring the rofl hunter-seeker missile.
the fungal projectile is as fast as the hunter seeker missile at it's fastest.
Thanks for making me chuckle mr. infestor god.
never said i was the best (though one of my goals was to become the best infestor user).
but practicing something for a year when only about 6-10 people in the world were practicing it as much means that just from experience i'm better than most people.
Infestorzerg is a totally different style than "standard" since most people followed the IdrAbrick road in muta ling bane and never experimented. infestorzerg relies on your control of infestors to even survive at a bunch of key timings.
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On March 04 2011 05:23 PrinceXizor wrote:
Infestorzerg is a totally different style than "standard" since most people followed the IdrAbrick road in muta ling bane and never experimented. infestorzerg relies on your control of infestors to even survive at a bunch of key timings.
fuck what am i reading here!
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On March 04 2011 04:36 Vardant wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 03:46 The KY wrote:I don't think cloak is really relevant to the discussion as it's a heavy investment for a big risk, considering any protoss worth his salt has observers out PvT. I think the fact, that you need to research Storm and then KA pretty much evens this out. T players usually scout ahead with ghost, if they have cloak and if they have a Raven, it's lights out for the Obs. Not to mention, that you can actually EMP the Obs.
I don't think it's a question of evening out, I don't think it's related because it doesn't happen. And I can't see it being successful with any frequency. If you want to spend that much gas on a raven and cloak so you can maybe get an obs kill to maybe get off a crucial EMP, be my guest. But assuming protoss has the obs with his army you're unlikely to get much done before your shit dies.
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On March 04 2011 04:15 Deadiam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 01:15 Offhand wrote:
EMP should either be dodgable or turned into a drain rather then an instant "all your shit is gone" mechanic. It would actually make PvT ghost vs ht interesting. At first i wanted to agree with this ... but then I realized if it was a drain it would give Protoss to much time to get the storm off. If this were the case I would just go mass medivac to counter HT's. As of now it is a race to see who gets who first, which is much more interesting IMHO.
I'd agree with you if templar did their damage instantly and feedback outranged ghost abilities instead of the other way around.
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On March 04 2011 00:46 wristuzi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 00:18 flodeskum wrote:On March 03 2011 23:37 TimeSpiral wrote:
So, if Blink stalkers can all of the sudden dodge Fungal Growth, wouldn't it be equally possible to dodge EMP? an emp looks like the ghost is throwing an empty coke bottle at you What a hilarious analogy XD For those of y'all who are too lazy to youtube it yourselves  Fungal Growth Missile Speed Video
looks like the reaver is back :D (in zerg form haha)
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On March 04 2011 06:10 Kal_rA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 00:46 wristuzi wrote:On March 04 2011 00:18 flodeskum wrote:On March 03 2011 23:37 TimeSpiral wrote:
So, if Blink stalkers can all of the sudden dodge Fungal Growth, wouldn't it be equally possible to dodge EMP? an emp looks like the ghost is throwing an empty coke bottle at you What a hilarious analogy XD For those of y'all who are too lazy to youtube it yourselves Fungal Growth Missile Speed Video looks like the reaver is back :D (in zerg form haha)
- the auto homing and damage and range. T_T
i actually do want protoss to have the reaver (as a zerg player). also want zerg to have scourge.
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hmm new ptr coming up? sweet, let's see what they've changed.
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On March 04 2011 06:12 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 06:10 Kal_rA wrote:On March 04 2011 00:46 wristuzi wrote:On March 04 2011 00:18 flodeskum wrote:On March 03 2011 23:37 TimeSpiral wrote:
So, if Blink stalkers can all of the sudden dodge Fungal Growth, wouldn't it be equally possible to dodge EMP? an emp looks like the ghost is throwing an empty coke bottle at you What a hilarious analogy XD For those of y'all who are too lazy to youtube it yourselves Fungal Growth Missile Speed Video looks like the reaver is back :D (in zerg form haha) - the auto homing and damage and range. T_T i actually do want protoss to have the reaver (as a zerg player). also want zerg to have scourge.
Why? Can't see a place for them really.
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I would really like it if they just made the HT unable to be warped in. As they give you the option to switch from warp-gate back to the gateway but who on earth would do that. Well maybe to get out the High Templar. At least then it wouldn't just be able to warp in anywhere and instantly storm everything and would make for an interesting macro mechanic for Protoss and may get them to actually use more hotkeys.
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EPT
