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On March 03 2011 09:29 Keyz1 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +- Infestor Fungal Growth -
Is it a NERF or a BUFF? NERF.
Why? Well, let' see what I can do now, vs what i cant do.
Can't:
Fungal Growth to stop a fast moving air unit. (Good luck landing it unless he stops.)
Spawn infested Terrans to take out ANY unit in time, before they run away.
Stall an enemy army for 8 seconds, while I spawn more larva units and regroup an army.
Give my Broodlords the correct range to steer away from enemy units in time.
Keep units AWAY from my Broodlords so that they can keep killing rather than flying away.
Stop Protoss Units from using blink to catch up to my Broodlords.
Bring half the amount of infestors needed for a stall vs an enemy. (More gas)
Point and click an area of effect, yet High Templar can.
Cast instantly anymore.
Can:
Kill Marines and other fragile units, 2x faster. (If my fungal lands.)
Do 30% more damage to armored units (10~points)
Cry at the fact my fungal can miss.
Help make my infestor survive longer because he has a whopping 20 more points of HP.
No longer think of an infestor as a defensive unit.
If you noticed it yet or not, any good player uses infestors in a defensive manor at the moment, especially when they are going T3. The nerf indirectly affects the other zerg units and the priority of making infestors, period. It also indirectly affects macro games in general, as well making it much harder to defend against cheese or air units in general. Not only does it do that, but it also indirectly affects the other infestor skill: Infested terran, as they are very slow, and also slow to spawn.
And anybody who says it will help kill other units faster now, should remember that 150 gas can be used in much better ways (that's like 6 roaches) in a offensive state of mind.
Edit: Want to fungal an opponent to get your roaches in position? Sorry.
The infestor is NOT an offensive unit, it was never supposed to be.
I think one of the important points you're missing though is the fact that with Fungal now being a projectile, it can actually be aimed and shot ahead of time into an advancing army. The Infestor can now stay farther away from the army it's trying to Fungal which will help to keep it out of danger. This is all opposed to the old style where the infestor had to be within the fungal growth range to use it, bringing it very close to the army.
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On March 03 2011 09:36 fickazzz wrote:
ye i am kinda sad the PvZ deathball issue isnt addressed in this patch...
or could the new infestor with +30% dmg vs armored be answer...? we will see but i dont think so :/
because the big issue in ZvP was not dealing 10 more damage. heh
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On March 03 2011 13:50 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 09:36 fickazzz wrote:
ye i am kinda sad the PvZ deathball issue isnt addressed in this patch...
or could the new infestor with +30% dmg vs armored be answer...? we will see but i dont think so :/ because the big issue in ZvP was not dealing 10 more damage. heh
16. And they more than doubled the DPS.
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On March 03 2011 14:01 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 13:50 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 03 2011 09:36 fickazzz wrote:
ye i am kinda sad the PvZ deathball issue isnt addressed in this patch...
or could the new infestor with +30% dmg vs armored be answer...? we will see but i dont think so :/ because the big issue in ZvP was not dealing 10 more damage. heh 16. And they more than doubled the DPS.
hahaha. fungal is useless on the PTR. why would you ever want a higher DPS (same damage) when you could have an 8 second hold that deals the same damage. ugh
they could also double the DPS by dropping the duration to 2 seconds and cutting the damage in half, but you wouldn't see peopel talking about the DPS buff then. :/
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On March 03 2011 15:02 PrinceXizor wrote:
they could also double the DPS by dropping the duration to 2 seconds and cutting the damage in half
That's not how numbers work.
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On March 03 2011 07:10 jirpy wrote:
I apologize if this has already been addressed but won't sacking KA give an unfair advantage to terran - mainly ghosts who still have moebius reactor so they pop out with instant emps. I understand that they can't warp in like high templar, but it still seems unfair.
There was another thread about this, I dunno if it has been discussed here though. You actually have to think about it in reverse.
In your scenario--Templar spawns and has to wait for storm, ghost spawn and has insta EMP.
In game actual scenario--Protoss says "i want storm" warps in unit (usually near fight) and has storm about 5 seconds (I really have no idea how long the warp in takes). Terran says I need another ghost and has to train the ghost which takes full build time and rally distance.
New Scenario--Protoss says "I want storm" now he can get the templar instantly however he has to wait for storm a similar amount of time the terran would have to wait for the ghost. The protoss just gets the unit and then has to wait while the terran has to wait for the unit and then gets insta EMP.
so in THEORY it is more balanced that now every race has to wait a similar amount of time to get 75 energy to cast their good spell from the time they start training the unit, even with energy upgrades.
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On March 03 2011 15:14 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 15:02 PrinceXizor wrote:
they could also double the DPS by dropping the duration to 2 seconds and cutting the damage in half That's not how numbers work.
i wasn't aware that when you have X over 8 and make it 1/2 X over 2 that the second number wasn't double the first one.
2/8 is half of 1/2 for instance.
you know dividing the top number by 2 and the bottom by 4 or dividing by 2/4 (or 1/2, resulting ina doubled value)
so tell me how DO numbers work for you then.
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From an observers point of view, I really like the addition of the second food/mineral counter in the upper right corner, as well as the implementation of a nicely designed players names/standings overlay. Will make things easier for casters I suppose.
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On March 03 2011 16:03 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 15:14 Ribbon wrote:On March 03 2011 15:02 PrinceXizor wrote:
they could also double the DPS by dropping the duration to 2 seconds and cutting the damage in half That's not how numbers work. i wasn't aware that when you have X over 8 and make it 1/2 X over 2 that the second number wasn't double the first one. 2/8 is half of 1/2 for instance. you know dividing the top number by 2 and the bottom by 4 or dividing by 2/4 (or 1/2, resulting ina doubled value) so tell me how DO numbers work for you then.
Fungal Growth, (unless you are using it to hold mutalisks or medivacs drop some infested terrans and kill them like that) is actually used for holding units held until you can surround or bump some baneling to them. IMO 4 seconds is enough to do that and the dmg thing is a buff because if you can time it less then perfect and throw 2 FG to hold them for 8 second this means you will give them 4 times the damage you would have done with old FG. I don't think anybody build infestors 1 by 1 so this would add some usage to infestors.
Although I don't think it will be useful enough (8 seconds is a long time actually) and it will change the game. Like you won't be as easily defend against air (much more energy will be needed) probably hydras will be a must. But think it like this infestor drops will be much more viable as DPS is increased. But I still think it should have been FG and Neural Parasite used while burrowed. I don't see why that is overpowered.
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On March 03 2011 16:03 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 15:14 Ribbon wrote:On March 03 2011 15:02 PrinceXizor wrote:
they could also double the DPS by dropping the duration to 2 seconds and cutting the damage in half That's not how numbers work. i wasn't aware that when you have X over 8 and make it 1/2 X over 2 that the second number wasn't double the first one. 2/8 is half of 1/2 for instance. you know dividing the top number by 2 and the bottom by 4 or dividing by 2/4 (or 1/2, resulting ina doubled value) so tell me how DO numbers work for you then.
He thought you were referring to the new duration. E.g. dropping from 4 to 2.
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I like the fungal changes but the speed of the projectile needs to be about doubled. Still slow enough to miss moving muta/phoenix but actually fast enough to hit blink stalkers, stimmed marines etc. consistently.
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On March 03 2011 16:58 Apophenic wrote:
Fungal Growth, (unless you are using it to hold mutalisks or medivacs drop some infested terrans and kill them like that) is actually used for holding units held until you can surround or bump some baneling to them. IMO 4 seconds is enough to do that and the dmg thing is a buff because if you can time it less then perfect and throw 2 FG to hold them for 8 second this means you will give them 4 times the damage you would have done with old FG. I don't think anybody build infestors 1 by 1 so this would add some usage to infestors.
Although I don't think it will be useful enough (8 seconds is a long time actually) and it will change the game. Like you won't be as easily defend against air (much more energy will be needed) probably hydras will be a must. But think it like this infestor drops will be much more viable as DPS is increased. But I still think it should have been FG and Neural Parasite used while burrowed. I don't see why that is overpowered.
1. i've been an infestorzerg for a year i know how fungal works and i can do alot of things that most people can't with fungal.
2. 4 seconds is closer to 2 seconds real time.
3. 2 fungals is only ever going to be twice the damage of 1 fungal, no matter how you look at it, not 4 times.
4. fungals power came from it's hold not it's damage, they took away fungals power. DPS only begins to matter when you can no longer DO anything with the snare, like with a 4 second snare.
5. on the PTR if you fungal growth a group of M&M, they are able to move before banelings get there (off creep with speed upgrade) if you start the banelings from next to the infestor. off the PTR the banelings can get there.
on the PTR if you try to fungal: speedlings, mutas, stim'd bio, stalkers, phoenixes, reapers, cloaked units (for reveal), hellions, medivacs, warp prism, workers, speed banes, roaches with speed on creep. the unit can walk out of the area of the fungal before it hits. off the PTR you have to aim the fungal well and get in range and then you get a hit
i don't even mind the projectile tbh as i feel it's something you could get used to doing pretty well. but the enormous nerf in utility disguised as a feel good dps buff is what makes me sick about the change. and will be the reason i switch to protoss after a year of working on infestor zerg.
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I have a couple of ideas or suggestions if you will.
Protoss changes:
1. Graviton beam should be an upgrade or require more energy (too good vs any unit except for stimmed marines)
2. Force fields should not cover an entire ramp (they can kill an expansion so easy when the enemy can't reinforce)
3. Either Colossus range decreased by 1 or make the attack upgrades more human (insame damage with splash)
4. Decrease storm damage to 60 (no need to remove the amulet, which is a nice upgrade)
Also, decrease Templar archives build time to 45 sec and Twilight council build time to 45 sec.
5. Keep the new charge on zealots from PTR 1.3, great change.
6. Mothership vortex had to be fixed, but at least make the Mothership do more damage. How much can it really hurt the game? It's only ONE unit. Just increase the damage.
Terran changes:
1. Keep stim research time, but make stim less efficient. Either get "only" 40% increase in attack and speed or make the units lose more hp when stimming. MMM's are too powerful, too early.
2. Decrease healing from medivacs or make it require more energy, just a tiny bit is enough.
3. Siege tank range decreased by 1 (completely insane when put behind rocks or next to a ramp and use medivacs or scan for sight)
4. Concussive shells upgrade should cost 75 75.
5. Thor's air range decreased by 1 (don't know about this one).
6. Turn EMP to an upgrade (cheap 50 50) at the academy and make EMP only take 75% of the energy.
7. Bunker salvage should give you back only 80 minerals or so, not the full amount.
Zerg changes:
1. Just as the patch 1.3 PTR, the fungal growth stun time should be decreased, but only to 6 seconds, and make it a faster projectile. Also, change the "vs armoured" to +20% instead of 30%.
2. Increase Queen HP to 200 or decrease build time by 5 to 10 sec.
3. Increase Hydralisk HP to 90 and decrease Roach HP to 135-140 (so the hydra is used not only vs zerg and only protoss air builds).
(Hydralisk HP of 80 is ok if storm and colossus damage output/range is decreased, as noted above)
Of course, this is seen from a Zerg perspective, on platinum level.
Please give this a thought.
Any criticism is appreciated.
/ Auban
*EDIT*
I'm sorry, I just realised this was not quite the right place in the forum for my post.
Again, sorry for this.
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Zerg is going to suck so much if those changes make it to live servers...
I'm quite dissapointed at Blizz untill now changes were steps in the right direction, untill that patch.
Also i bet you 90% of players saying it's a buff for FG are loling T and P players :p
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Dodging Fungal - Really?
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I've been seeing people complain that because FG is now cast with a projectile, which I'm undecided on, that it is now possible to dodge. But it is nearly universally agreed upon by Protoss players that you cannot dodge the EMP projectile.
So, if Blink stalkers can all of the sudden dodge Fungal Growth, wouldn't it be equally possible to dodge EMP?
I'm asking that as a serious question because I see that argument being made. I'm in the department that dodging anything requires superior micro; storm, emp, fungal, etc ... If you can dodge an EMP projectile, you're a badass. If you can issue move commands during a battle with Toss where 1/4 of the visible screen is filled with crackling psi-storms and still come out on top, you're a bad ass.
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I think all in all the next GSL (first one with this new patch) will have a dominance of Zerg over Terran. I might be wrong, but here's the theory.
- Infestors will decimate Bio balls with the increased damage and higher health. Thus Terrans will go more mech-based.
- Mech based is obviously a lot less mobile.
- This may be a huge issue with the much bigger Macro maps that are being used in GSL at the moment.
- Low mobility mech builds are going to struggle against mobile Zerg threats like Mutalisk harass, Morrow style drop play, Nydus network etc.
Not complaining especially as this is all theorycraft, but just a prediction about what the future might hold for ZvT.
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On March 03 2011 17:43 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 16:58 Apophenic wrote:
Fungal Growth, (unless you are using it to hold mutalisks or medivacs drop some infested terrans and kill them like that) is actually used for holding units held until you can surround or bump some baneling to them. IMO 4 seconds is enough to do that and the dmg thing is a buff because if you can time it less then perfect and throw 2 FG to hold them for 8 second this means you will give them 4 times the damage you would have done with old FG. I don't think anybody build infestors 1 by 1 so this would add some usage to infestors.
Although I don't think it will be useful enough (8 seconds is a long time actually) and it will change the game. Like you won't be as easily defend against air (much more energy will be needed) probably hydras will be a must. But think it like this infestor drops will be much more viable as DPS is increased. But I still think it should have been FG and Neural Parasite used while burrowed. I don't see why that is overpowered. 1. i've been an infestorzerg for a year i know how fungal works and i can do alot of things that most people can't with fungal. 2. 4 seconds is closer to 2 seconds real time. 3. 2 fungals is only ever going to be twice the damage of 1 fungal, no matter how you look at it, not 4 times. 4. fungals power came from it's hold not it's damage, they took away fungals power. DPS only begins to matter when you can no longer DO anything with the snare, like with a 4 second snare. 5. on the PTR if you fungal growth a group of M&M, they are able to move before banelings get there (off creep with speed upgrade) if you start the banelings from next to the infestor. off the PTR the banelings can get there. on the PTR if you try to fungal: speedlings, mutas, stim'd bio, stalkers, phoenixes, reapers, cloaked units (for reveal), hellions, medivacs, warp prism, workers, speed banes, roaches with speed on creep. the unit can walk out of the area of the fungal before it hits. off the PTR you have to aim the fungal well and get in range and then you get a hit i don't even mind the projectile tbh as i feel it's something you could get used to doing pretty well. but the enormous nerf in utility disguised as a feel good dps buff is what makes me sick about the change. and will be the reason i switch to protoss after a year of working on infestor zerg.
Thanks for making me chuckle mr. infestor god.
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On March 03 2011 23:37 TimeSpiral wrote:
Dodging Fungal - Really?
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I've been seeing people complain that because FG is now cast with a projectile, which I'm undecided on, that it is now possible to dodge. But it is nearly universally agreed upon by Protoss players that you cannot dodge the EMP projectile.
So, if Blink stalkers can all of the sudden dodge Fungal Growth, wouldn't it be equally possible to dodge EMP?
I'm asking that as a serious question because I see that argument being made. I'm in the department that dodging anything requires superior micro; storm, emp, fungal, etc ... If you can dodge an EMP projectile, you're a badass. If you can issue move commands during a battle with Toss where 1/4 of the visible screen is filled with crackling psi-storms and still come out on top, you're a bad ass.
Have you seen videos of the projectile? It is no way as fast as emp. Isn't emp effectively instant?
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On March 03 2011 23:37 TimeSpiral wrote:
So, if Blink stalkers can all of the sudden dodge Fungal Growth, wouldn't it be equally possible to dodge EMP?
From the videos I've seen of the fungal projectile it is considerably slower than an emp.
It's also a lot more visible, an emp looks like the ghost is throwing an empty coke bottle at you so it's quite hard to spot but the fungal growth is a shiny green blob.
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On March 04 2011 00:18 flodeskum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 23:37 TimeSpiral wrote:
So, if Blink stalkers can all of the sudden dodge Fungal Growth, wouldn't it be equally possible to dodge EMP? From the videos I've seen of the fungal projectile it is considerably slower than an emp. It's also a lot more visible, an emp looks like the ghost is throwing an empty coke bottle at you so it's quite hard to spot but the fungal growth is a shiny green blob.
I have not seen a video. Anyone have one?
I can only imagine the spell projectiles all sharing the same movement speed. Anything else would be silly, barring the rofl hunter-seeker missile.
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EPT
