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Before you post, read the title of this thread slowly and out loud. |
On February 25 2011 07:45 zerglingsfolife wrote:
Well, I think a very positive thing is how mixed the reception was of when MLG announced they would pick up starcraft here on TL. Then when they announced the rules there was more mixed reception. Look at MLG now, everyone fucking loves it and has faith in them. People just care and are worried. Let's go NASL!!!!!!!
Extended series?
Also, its not like MLG had any competition to compare to till now.
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I want to add, with all of this discussion over the problems with invitationals vs. qualifiers and so forth, that what NASL has already announced is pretty close to what I'm looking for, and there's been no information contradicting what I want. They've said there are 50 seats, and the bottom 15 don't re-qualify for the next season. (I'm not sure where that info came from, and obviously there has been false information given, but several people have referred to it, so I'm going to assume it's reliable.) They've also said that the top 4 from the open tournament qualify for the next season. That's 4 of the 15 openings. The only question remaining is where the other 11 come from. I would like it to be some sort of open tournament or objective ranking criteria. I don't think this would be all that hard to do, and I think it would go a long way in establishing the tournament's fairness/legitimacy.
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On February 25 2011 07:40 Sheth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:26 Chill wrote:
I think responding to legitmate criticism with "send your players to another tournament and enjoy life" is ridiculous.
Further, you don't have to "find sponsors and organize your own $400,000 league" or accept "meh it's their choice its their tournament" if you have legitimate criticism. For example, if you criticize the design of team liquid, I'm not going to ban you and say "meh go develop your own community".
If everything is in stone then NASL staff can say they are past changes and don't value suggestions or criticism, then we can move on. But I haven't gotten that impression. I find it extremely dismissive to tell everyone to accept anything NASL lays in front of them. It is legitimate critiscm and help however I was just trying to look at it from a different view. And the enjoy life thing was just an ending I love everyone type of thing I always do. Right now TL already has Huk in Korea, he has already said he won't play cross servers. I know this 5 players thing is a bad rule, but for the first season surely you can see why it makes sence from a business point of view. Diversity = Money. And sence hes already in Korea with Ret(?) there wouldn't be too many problems for TL to just send the others to NASL. And after the first season when TL owns it up and some FXO scrub loses his spot maybe it will go to TL I don't know! I agree that we shouldn't just accept everything / anything NASL says to us, and I appreciate all the feedback (I'm not a NASL staff just someone who is friends with them) but clearly you can see how painful it is for them that they say BAM SUPRISE!!! and the first thing the community does is send it a 50+ page hate letter on how they don't like how the suprise is set up. And yea me saying find sponsors for your own 400k league was just me ranting and being stupid I apologize. End Semi other rant.
I agree with your statements but try to look at it from players who are on the brink of top 50 (obviously not me). How will these players know they will get a fair shot at the NASL? This also regards how after the top50 are picked they are essentially placed into groups in a biased manner( they obviously have a view on team kills and ratings) but how fair will this placement into groups be(will some players essentially have a easier time qualifying because of the format)?
Sorry about the brackets and such, I realize that my English is horrible but bear with me and try and understand the point I am making.
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Of course it's negative so far because I bet there's no one who truly agrees with the current planned format for the tournament. Not to mention all the other things that went on. It had a shaky start, especially with the way the showmatch went down. We need to be heard so they can change their stance asap. Because seriously I hope these team invite rules do not stay. In gsl it was awesome because relatively unknown players came out the cuts. Look at foxer. Only known on ladder and he became a Terran icon. He seriously is the current boxer in terms of how much he affected Terran play. Only one invite from the open tournament seriously hinders that from happening, having a relatively unknown player come and show us how this game is supposed to be played.
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On February 25 2011 07:47 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:45 zerglingsfolife wrote:
Well, I think a very positive thing is how mixed the reception was of when MLG announced they would pick up starcraft here on TL. Then when they announced the rules there was more mixed reception. Look at MLG now, everyone fucking loves it and has faith in them. People just care and are worried. Let's go NASL!!!!!!! Extended series? Also, its not like MLG had any competition to compare to till now.
Lol. Extended series is nothing compared to what people were worried about. And I believe MLG and NASL are working together to avoid scheduling conflicts.
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On February 25 2011 07:49 paksam wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:40 Sheth wrote:On February 25 2011 07:26 Chill wrote:
I think responding to legitmate criticism with "send your players to another tournament and enjoy life" is ridiculous.
Further, you don't have to "find sponsors and organize your own $400,000 league" or accept "meh it's their choice its their tournament" if you have legitimate criticism. For example, if you criticize the design of team liquid, I'm not going to ban you and say "meh go develop your own community".
If everything is in stone then NASL staff can say they are past changes and don't value suggestions or criticism, then we can move on. But I haven't gotten that impression. I find it extremely dismissive to tell everyone to accept anything NASL lays in front of them. It is legitimate critiscm and help however I was just trying to look at it from a different view. And the enjoy life thing was just an ending I love everyone type of thing I always do. Right now TL already has Huk in Korea, he has already said he won't play cross servers. I know this 5 players thing is a bad rule, but for the first season surely you can see why it makes sence from a business point of view. Diversity = Money. And sence hes already in Korea with Ret(?) there wouldn't be too many problems for TL to just send the others to NASL. And after the first season when TL owns it up and some FXO scrub loses his spot maybe it will go to TL I don't know! I agree that we shouldn't just accept everything / anything NASL says to us, and I appreciate all the feedback (I'm not a NASL staff just someone who is friends with them) but clearly you can see how painful it is for them that they say BAM SUPRISE!!! and the first thing the community does is send it a 50+ page hate letter on how they don't like how the suprise is set up. And yea me saying find sponsors for your own 400k league was just me ranting and being stupid I apologize. End Semi other rant. I agree with your statements but try to look at it from players who are on the brink of top 50 (obviously not me). How will these players know they will get a fair shot at the NASL? This also regards how after the top50 are picked they are essentially placed into groups in a biased manner( they obviously have a view on team kills and ratings) but how fair will this placement into groups be(will some players essentially have a easier time qualifying because of the format)? Sorry about the brackets and such, I realize that my English is horrible but bear with me and try and understand the point I am making.
I'm pretty sure Sheth is talking about the 5 person per team limit, not any worries about bias or player selection or anything like that.
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That is true, but I believe my point brings up more issues that need to be dealt with before the league start.
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I really cant understand all the hate about the cherry picking and so.
The first season will be cherry picked , but after that , 4 (or it was 5) players from the Open will make their way in , and 4 of the cherry-picked will be out.
I see it only as an easy way to start , afterwards , everyone will have to prove their value to keep playing there or they will go out eventually.
It does not look like good players will be left out , and the team limits are ok so one team just doesnt monopolize the spots.
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On February 25 2011 07:53 paksam wrote:
That is true, but I believe my point brings up more issues that need to be dealt with before the league start.
I think that a lot of them will be able to get into the NASL. The first season may be picked, but I believe they said the bottom 15 spots will open up each season. Also, they NASLopen to seed the final spot in the RO16 will be a chance for players that got skipped to really make it.
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Question: What is the true goal of the tournament?
It seems more like a reality show aimed at creating drama and ratings than at actually producing a legitimate competition between top-tiered players. This is suggested by the entry application questions and forms, the virtually invite-only format, the team rules in an individual based organization, and the continued emphasis by Russell and InControL on creating backstory and drama for the league. I have to wonder if the league wasn't created to offer a large sum of money to create a setting for dramatic entertainment vs competitive entertainment. ie. WWE vs US Open.
Question: How will NASL respond to the questions regarding professionalism, and conduct by its staff?
Specifically the lack of transparency in their operation. Questions of conflict of interest in the founders of the league and major contributors to the structure and operations being a part of the competition. The lack of a clear decision-making structure and power distribution is concerning.
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On February 25 2011 08:01 tsularesque wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:53 paksam wrote:
That is true, but I believe my point brings up more issues that need to be dealt with before the league start. I think that a lot of them will be able to get into the NASL. The first season may be picked, but I believe they said the bottom 15 spots will open up each season. Also, they NASLopen to seed the final spot in the RO16 will be a chance for players that got skipped to really make it.
This doesn't explain how they won't be biased when selecting the groups for the group stage. It is the main "point" I'm referring to. The rules just seem biased.
edit: g2g now it was nice having a discussion with you guys. Hope that by the time I come back NASL will have cleared up all this so they can successfully move forward.
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Question
Will NASL continue to be a "one for all" type tournament like GSL, or will we be seeing more GSTL type games after a few successful seasons? Have any of the current sponsors showed interest in sponsoring a TEAM later down the road?
I ask because I always enjoy watching Team vs Team over a bunch of, what FEELS like, random 1v1's.
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On February 25 2011 07:59 Meatloaf wrote:
I really cant understand all the hate about the cherry picking and so.
The first season will be cherry picked , but after that , 4 (or it was 5) players from the Open will make their way in , and 4 of the cherry-picked will be out.
I see it only as an easy way to start , afterwards , everyone will have to prove their value to keep playing there or they will go out eventually.
It does not look like good players will be left out , and the team limits are ok so one team just doesnt monopolize the spots.
Imo that isn't enough of a turnaround, also i dunno where you got 4 or 5 from the open from.. they said just 1 slot from an 1000 person open i'm pretty sure. Plus, you are underestimating how many unknown players would be able to compete if they were given a chance. The top guys lose to unknowns all the time on the NA/EU ladders. This isn't like BW where there's such a big gap between the top and everyone else. I imagine if EVERYONE had to quality we'd definitely see upsets and some big players falling out early.
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8748 Posts
On February 25 2011 07:51 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:47 Energizer wrote:On February 25 2011 07:45 zerglingsfolife wrote:
Well, I think a very positive thing is how mixed the reception was of when MLG announced they would pick up starcraft here on TL. Then when they announced the rules there was more mixed reception. Look at MLG now, everyone fucking loves it and has faith in them. People just care and are worried. Let's go NASL!!!!!!! Extended series? Also, its not like MLG had any competition to compare to till now. Lol. Extended series is nothing compared to what people were worried about. And I believe MLG and NASL are working together to avoid scheduling conflicts.
So they don't compete for players but they still compete for sponsors.
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I really don't care about the politics or in fighting that seems to be going on now. Incontrol is funny because he tells it like it is , and this is fresh and good for e sports . What isn't funny is ppl not realizing that this is a silly argument that is only gonna help to destroy the dream so many of you have of successful North American Starcraft 2 league.
You might want to consider that there is a large majority of the world that could care less about sc2 players and only barely know the game exists. So the point is you already have a huge challenge ahead of you to deal with in the first place, so why make it harder?
In the United States Starcraft2 and its players are not looked at in a very favourable light to begin with , with the public at large , but then again e sports really isn't either. Imagine for a moment someone who bought the game or got it for Christmas and they hear about this website and see this incontrol guy then go to this site and see all this hoopla going on. What do you think there gonna think , more than likely wow look at these nerds arguing over some silly petty things no one cares about . Hate to it break it to you but unless you love this game and play it die hard this is how there gonna feel . Don't shoot yourself in the foot and screw up your dream over small petty things. That's dumb !
INcontrol brings a fun feel to the game and i can't help but laugh at his truthfulness , so the guy isn't perfect , so what who is .
There's the positive ...now just like InControl I tell it like it is ..
The streams problems are forgive able but whats not is this
1.The player interviews looked like they were shot in someones trailer.
2.Artosis is wearing a hooded sweat shirt , if he ever wants to be taken seriously as a professional e sports commentator then he needs to dress the part. The general public would have tuned in and thought they were watching some high school kids making some poor documentary .
3.The whole show the presentation reminded me of very bad local late night wrestling program.
These are all things that can be fixed , but must be fixed or this is to the general public not gonna ever look like more than a college or even high school level produced show at best .
I know what I'm talking about I worked at HBO and WTBS and understand and know how to produce and direct quality television.
If we had been looking at this on just its production value it would have ended up in our network trash can.
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On February 25 2011 08:06 paksam wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 08:01 tsularesque wrote:On February 25 2011 07:53 paksam wrote:
That is true, but I believe my point brings up more issues that need to be dealt with before the league start. I think that a lot of them will be able to get into the NASL. The first season may be picked, but I believe they said the bottom 15 spots will open up each season. Also, they NASLopen to seed the final spot in the RO16 will be a chance for players that got skipped to really make it. This doesn't explain how they won't be biased when selecting the groups for the group stage. It is the main "point" I'm referring to. The rules just seem biased.
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. But I think I've been convinced it'll work.
Looking at tournament rankings and ladder points, it'd be fairly straightforward to make a list of about 75-ish players.
Then make sure only 5 per team get in.
At this point I'd expect you're a bit closer to 50. Now you take a look at the voting scheme on the website: who does the community want to see? Which of those players mentioned they have a rivalry with other players? What will bring in viewers out of these top players?
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Question:
1.) Can you give specifics on the prize pool?
In motbobs post, the SotG interview, and scattered throughout this thread I've seen "$100,000 prize pool" thrown around. This makes me think it will be $100,000 distributed among the top 16 based on placing. However I've also seen phrases like "compete to win 100k" and "perhaps bigger than GSL" thrown around by officials. This suggest that $100,000 is the first place prize, which makes no sense as it is pretty clearly stated that 400k will be divided up among 3 tournaments, which would leave no money for anyone other than the winner.
Could you give more info on the structure? If you're not ready to speak to this I would understand, but I figured I would ask it.
2.) Just a suggestion. You should make some sort of effort to do away with a lot of the statements that are causing confusion. The prize thing is minor as it makes sense as written as long as it refers to the pool, but there are a lot of other things in the OP and official answers throughout this thread that are just asking to be misconstrued. Specifically this:
"1) Games cast LIVE, but broadcast afterwards!"
I brought this up earlier, and you clarified it in the italic part of the OP, but I think it needs to be stressed again how little sense this statement makes. Broadcast == cast, using them in the way you did is confusing. And as for the clarification:
"We never even thought we were being misleading. It is standard practice for film to state that a show is filmed live if it is performed as it is being filmed. Typically, "Live" means that they perform it with minimal retakes or with multi-camera work. We are sorry if you thought we were being deceptive; that was never our intention."
Some shows say "filmed before a live audience" or "recorded live" in the case of a late night talk show, but no one just says "live" or "cast live" to refer to something that is not, in fact, live. I think it would go a long way to quell a lot of the confusion with and criticism of the non-live broadcast if you just dropped the word live from the announcement all together. If its used improperly people are going to think you are trying to sneak it in and will feel misled.
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Well after posting in the first 10 pages and having my concerns dismissed. I hoped skipping through and reading the next 40 pages would solve my worries. They have not.
1. HUGE mis-communication. Whoever is running this, and whoever is in charge needs to tell anyone who knows anything about the NASL to shut it and say no comment. Then tell 1 guy, you're the PR guy, answer these questions. We have 3-4 sources saying different things.
2. You've alrdy mentioned that you don't want to talk about sponsors because they have requested it. That's fine. Put it in the OP though, it's remained unchanged and still has your sarcastic answer which people keep qouting and talking about.
3. I understand you want this to be an NA thing and not some global thing. I don't however see anyone paying for this over the GSL though. If we have to choose to pay for the GSL or the NASL, I'm confident most will watch the GSL as it actually has the best of the best playing. Where the NASL is severely limiting who can play and people are being picked by a commitee and not by skill (IE, ladder -> code A -> code S). NASL is just going to be the other big tournament in the world with the players who arn't good enough to win the GSL.
4. There should be zero restrictions, shouldn't have to be on a team and there shouldn't be team size restrictions either. Just copy what GSL did in korea and make it happen in NA. You obviously have the sponsors to finance. This will simultaneously answer and make everyone happy about how things are run. No "live" stream problems, no restriction problem, no team problem, and no format problems.
Don't know what else to say that hasn't alrdy been said and I'm saddened how this is seemingly turning out. Hope it works out though, we all want this to succeed and we are deeply passionate about how things should run. Don't mistake it us for haters just hating. Take our criticism and at least show you are thinking about it. Don't be blizz and not say anything and leave us wondering if anything is happening at all.
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On February 25 2011 08:08 RocketBOy wrote:
I really don't care about the politics or in fighting that seems to be going on now. Incontrol is funny because he tells it like it is , and this is fresh and good for e sports . What isn't funny is ppl not realizing that this is a silly argument that is only gonna help to destroy the dream so many of you have of successful North American Starcraft 2 league.
You might want to consider that there is a large majority of the world that could care less about sc2 players and only barely know the game exists. So the point is you already have a huge challenge ahead of you to deal with in the first place, so why make it harder?
In the United States Starcraft2 and its players are not looked at in a very favourable light to begin with , with the public at large , but then again e sports really isn't either. Imagine for a moment someone who bought the game or got it for Christmas and they hear about this website and see this incontrol guy then go to this site and see all this hoopla going on. What do you think there gonna think , more than likely wow look at these nerds arguing over some silly petty things no one cares about . Hate to it break it to you but unless you love this game and play it die hard this is how there gonna feel . Don't shoot yourself in the foot and screw up your dream over small petty things. That's dumb !
INcontrol brings a fun feel to the game and i can't help but laugh at his truthfulness , so the guy isn't perfect , so what who is .
There's the positive ...now just like InControl I tell it like it is ..
The streams problems are forgive able but whats not is this
1.The player interviews looked like they were shot in someones trailer.
2.Artosis is wearing a hooded sweat shirt , if he ever wants to be taken seriously as a professional e sports commentator then he needs to dress the part. The general public would have tuned in and thought they were watching some high school kids making some poor documentary .
3.The whole show the presentation reminded me of very bad local late night wrestling program.
These are all things that can be fixed , but must be fixed or this is to the general public not gonna ever look like more than a college or even high school level produced show at best .
I know what I'm talking about I worked at HBO and WTBS and understand and know how to produce and direct quality television.
If we had been looking at this on just its production value it would have ended up in our network trash can.
This is a common notion in all who defend NASL, because they are doing something good for the community should we just look away if the organizers' have an interior motive?(this sounds farfetchd' but if they would just change or address the rules accordingly then my whole argument gets thrown out the window). I feel like everyone is responding with the fact that they think I and people like myself don't want esports to grow ( which is not true at all). I feel like the NASL's intentions should be thoroughly questioned especially when dealing with a lot of money. I don't know about you but I dream that the NASL will exist but I do not wish it to be as corrupt as it seems (only due to their rules/explanations [or lack there of]). Please try and look at it in that POV and maybe you will see a few of their qualification rules seem unreasonable (without explanation from NASL).
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On February 25 2011 08:11 tsularesque wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 08:06 paksam wrote:On February 25 2011 08:01 tsularesque wrote:On February 25 2011 07:53 paksam wrote:
That is true, but I believe my point brings up more issues that need to be dealt with before the league start. I think that a lot of them will be able to get into the NASL. The first season may be picked, but I believe they said the bottom 15 spots will open up each season. Also, they NASLopen to seed the final spot in the RO16 will be a chance for players that got skipped to really make it. This doesn't explain how they won't be biased when selecting the groups for the group stage. It is the main "point" I'm referring to. The rules just seem biased. Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. But I think I've been convinced it'll work. Looking at tournament rankings and ladder points, it'd be fairly straightforward to make a list of about 75-ish players. Then make sure only 5 per team get in. At this point I'd expect you're a bit closer to 50. Now you take a look at the voting scheme on the website: who does the community want to see? Which of those players mentioned they have a rivalry with other players? What will bring in viewers out of these top players?
That is assuming all top players ladder? I'm sure there are many skilled players who just dont ladder that much or arent that famous. I just don't see how they can objectively pick 50 individuals to participate without having all who apply play in some sort of qualification tourney. ( Yes I know they ahve an open tourney, but I want to state that it is 1/16 seats)
Crazy example - heck if flash decided to play sc2 and no one knew and he wanted to play in the NASL how would he go about it with your explanation.
I feel like this discussion is very necessary for the NASL to move foward. It's basically the matter of how fair are they going to be in their selection? and how can we trust them to pick the top50 players out of the ones who applied, and also how do great players not on a professional team qualify? The rules just seem to be biased/flawed and I want to show my concern about them.
edit:also that rivalry question makes me think the group selection is more biased? does anyone agree...also i really g2g now haha great discussion though!
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EPT
