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Before you post, read the title of this thread slowly and out loud. |
On February 25 2011 09:43 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 09:23 Incursus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think Manifesto hit the nail on the head. This whole thing was hyped as if it will be the best thing to ever hit E-Sports. It could very well be, however the production value that went into that showmatch has people feeling doubtful. These restrictions that they are placing on players are causing doubt amongst a lot of us too. This is not about feeling entitled this all comes down to wanting this to succeed, and badly.
I myself want this to work out, and if it is handled remotely similarly to that show match it will be a catastrophic failure. We were promised the best thing in E-Sports history, and it was hyped to the edge of reason. And this could very well be what we want precisely and it could be wildly successful, but please do not mistake criticism for disdain. People are critical because they are concerned about the success of this league.
I myself, like many others think that deliberately excluding players will be an unwise decision, there is no adequate justification for causing division amongst a team (don't tell me this rule won't). NASL is obviously there to make money (good thing btw) and if it is focused on making money it needs to think about the target audience. People want what they want and a fabulous way to get money from these people is to give them what they want. So what if we want Liquid to be able to field their entire lineup? Isn't part of being the best league in the world having the best players in the world? Cutting people out would only make it less prestigious.
NASL's first couple of seasons will be rocky, but I imagine if it gets up to speed we will all be pleased. It's no mystery to me why Day[9] and others are hesitant to throw their lot in with NASL, no one wants their name attached to what could be the Titanic of E-Sports. And just as much as it could be the Titanic it could be Saturn 5 of its generation.
To recap, people are upset because they were promised the best and to them it doesn't look like the hype has lived up to it. Most of us are also perturbed by the thought of this failing. So yes, everyone is jumping on Incontrol and the rest of them, to make this endeavor is a success.
I will still NASL regardless of all the above factors, provided it is not as bad as the showmatch (the games were fine, Jinro/IdrA fighting).
My primary issue shall be explained through the following example.
Take a look at the SCReddit Invitational, that little tournament is the highest quality tournament I have beheld in the foreign world (comparatively to its budget and infrastructure). And that whole tournament is appearing to be vastly superior to NASL's present image. Now, if NASL turns out to be a super high quality production I will be pleased. I imagine it will be better than that show match. However, my point is, if Reddit and their comparatively tiny budget can put together a better show, that is discouraging. Now, I'm not deaf to the difficulty of setting up a show match from Korea. And I freely admit that could excuse the quality of this production.
However, don't make promises you cannot keep, I was promised a live show match and was given a low quality, low res, bad audio pre-recorded cast of replays. If I had been promised the latter, I would have been happy. Don't make yourself out to be the best and not deliver. Case in point. So many paragraphs with nothing to say. Over and over and over. You just ranted away quite and literally said nothing other than that you're essentially worried for a reason you admit is likely to be proven wrong. Fantastic. Further, as Incontrol himself pointed out, all of the hyping was everybody else hyping. Incontrol mentioned it like 4 times, that's it. I'm pretty sure many of you are more interested in complaining about the NASL than you are about watching it, and it has nothing to do with the format. You've been on this forum and every post (almost) has been simply pushing YOUR OWN agenda about what YOU think is wrong and why YOU take issue with it. Most aren't able to acknowledge why they might be doing this instead of merely harping on the point that you don't like it. Guess what? I don't like stopping at red lights when I don't see anybody around, but I still understand why I should (obviously this analogy isn't about the NASL, but instead simply ideas you don't like). Take a step back, remove yourself emotionally from the conversation and simply understand why things they way they are. You can continue to disagree, but no amount of being pissed off and angry that it's not designed exactly the way you want it to be will suddenly make it perfect for you (not the keyword again, you). One thing I'm going to specifically mention again and pray gets read... The GSL and NASL are more alike than most of you want to admit, hell, even to the BW leagues. Those weren't open tournaments, you had to be a progamer already. The GSL instead of doing invites, already has their core players lined up because of their previous tournaments. If they wanted to be fair, wouldn't they themselves just hold open qualifiers again? Think of all of the other tournaments outside of korea as the NASL's qualifiers. There have been a wealth of tournaments in EU/NA for a chance for people to make their mark.
The gsl still does hold open qualifiers for getting into code a, so what are you talking about?
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On February 25 2011 09:43 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 09:23 Incursus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think Manifesto hit the nail on the head. This whole thing was hyped as if it will be the best thing to ever hit E-Sports. It could very well be, however the production value that went into that showmatch has people feeling doubtful. These restrictions that they are placing on players are causing doubt amongst a lot of us too. This is not about feeling entitled this all comes down to wanting this to succeed, and badly.
I myself want this to work out, and if it is handled remotely similarly to that show match it will be a catastrophic failure. We were promised the best thing in E-Sports history, and it was hyped to the edge of reason. And this could very well be what we want precisely and it could be wildly successful, but please do not mistake criticism for disdain. People are critical because they are concerned about the success of this league.
I myself, like many others think that deliberately excluding players will be an unwise decision, there is no adequate justification for causing division amongst a team (don't tell me this rule won't). NASL is obviously there to make money (good thing btw) and if it is focused on making money it needs to think about the target audience. People want what they want and a fabulous way to get money from these people is to give them what they want. So what if we want Liquid to be able to field their entire lineup? Isn't part of being the best league in the world having the best players in the world? Cutting people out would only make it less prestigious.
NASL's first couple of seasons will be rocky, but I imagine if it gets up to speed we will all be pleased. It's no mystery to me why Day[9] and others are hesitant to throw their lot in with NASL, no one wants their name attached to what could be the Titanic of E-Sports. And just as much as it could be the Titanic it could be Saturn 5 of its generation.
To recap, people are upset because they were promised the best and to them it doesn't look like the hype has lived up to it. Most of us are also perturbed by the thought of this failing. So yes, everyone is jumping on Incontrol and the rest of them, to make this endeavor is a success.
I will still NASL regardless of all the above factors, provided it is not as bad as the showmatch (the games were fine, Jinro/IdrA fighting).
My primary issue shall be explained through the following example.
Take a look at the SCReddit Invitational, that little tournament is the highest quality tournament I have beheld in the foreign world (comparatively to its budget and infrastructure). And that whole tournament is appearing to be vastly superior to NASL's present image. Now, if NASL turns out to be a super high quality production I will be pleased. I imagine it will be better than that show match. However, my point is, if Reddit and their comparatively tiny budget can put together a better show, that is discouraging. Now, I'm not deaf to the difficulty of setting up a show match from Korea. And I freely admit that could excuse the quality of this production.
However, don't make promises you cannot keep, I was promised a live show match and was given a low quality, low res, bad audio pre-recorded cast of replays. If I had been promised the latter, I would have been happy. Don't make yourself out to be the best and not deliver. Case in point. + Show Spoiler +So many paragraphs with nothing to say. Over and over and over. You just ranted away quite and literally said nothing other than that you're essentially worried for a reason you admit is likely to be proven wrong. Fantastic. Further, as Incontrol himself pointed out, all of the hyping was everybody else hyping. Incontrol mentioned it like 4 times, that's it.
I'm pretty sure many of you are more interested in complaining about the NASL than you are about watching it, and it has nothing to do with the format. You've been on this forum and every post (almost) has been simply pushing YOUR OWN agenda about what YOU think is wrong and why YOU take issue with it. Most aren't able to acknowledge why they might be doing this instead of merely harping on the point that you don't like it. Guess what? I don't like stopping at red lights when I don't see anybody around, but I still understand why I should (obviously this analogy isn't about the NASL, but instead simply ideas you don't like).
Take a step back, remove yourself emotionally from the conversation and simply understand why things they way they are. You can continue to disagree, but no amount of being pissed off and angry that it's not designed exactly the way you want it to be will suddenly make it perfect for you (not the keyword again, you).
One thing I'm going to specifically mention again and pray gets read... The GSL and NASL are more alike than most of you want to admit, hell, even to the BW leagues. Those weren't open tournaments, you had to be a progamer already. The GSL instead of doing invites, already has their core players lined up because of their previous tournaments. If they wanted to be fair, wouldn't they themselves just hold open qualifiers again? Think of all of the other tournaments outside of korea as the NASL's qualifiers. There have been a wealth of tournaments in EU/NA for a chance for people to make their mark.
I wasn't really attempting to argue a point, I was merely expressing my opinion of the situation at hand. If you think I was complaining that is not the case, I am thoroughly exited about the league. I am just expressing my worries. I really want to see this succeed, and I like many others am in the rare of position of having a platform to air my concerns. I am doing so, as are you. I was offering my analysis as to why there is a lot of contention about this and then offering my own thoughts. I for one will watch NASL regardless of what they do as I said before. (Provided the stream is bearable and according to Incontrol it will be.)
Also, do not tell me he did not Hype this a bunch. Incontrol knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he began this hype campaign. He was blowing this thing way up, and quite frankly I can see why, I do believe it will live up to the hype. I think the issue here is that people are worried the NASL will be like that showmatch. And if it is there's gonna be issues with viewers I imagine.
GSL does not restrict team members from playing though, I for one have no problem with team killing, they're gonna have to play each other any how so why does it matter when. GSL has a method for new players to get in on the GSL as well, work your way through Code A and the qualifiers for it and you can participate, Simple. Much more difficult to actually do of course, but the concept is there. The only real criticism outside of people's personal preferences seems to be the player issue. I don't think it will be league breaking, I just think the decision was not focused on the future. Although on State of the Game we were told this rule could also be done away with in the future.
And this post is probably like my last one, I'm trying to contribute to this discussion, in my own way. I don't have the deep understanding of these events that many others do, so I am avoiding nit picking specific things. The only issue I am concerned about is the inability for a team to enter all their best players in the league, and why that choice was made arbitrarily. If teams have a lot of good players they should be able to enter all of them. Even if they can't I don't think it will torpedo NASL.
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On February 23 2011 08:10 Glowbox wrote:
You say the matches will be rebroadcasted for Europeans. The FAQ on nasl.tv states it's in morning. Have you considered broadcasting at EU 'primetime', around 8 pm CET?
and for that matter, primetime in korean too please
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On February 25 2011 09:54 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 09:43 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On February 25 2011 09:23 Incursus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think Manifesto hit the nail on the head. This whole thing was hyped as if it will be the best thing to ever hit E-Sports. It could very well be, however the production value that went into that showmatch has people feeling doubtful. These restrictions that they are placing on players are causing doubt amongst a lot of us too. This is not about feeling entitled this all comes down to wanting this to succeed, and badly.
I myself want this to work out, and if it is handled remotely similarly to that show match it will be a catastrophic failure. We were promised the best thing in E-Sports history, and it was hyped to the edge of reason. And this could very well be what we want precisely and it could be wildly successful, but please do not mistake criticism for disdain. People are critical because they are concerned about the success of this league.
I myself, like many others think that deliberately excluding players will be an unwise decision, there is no adequate justification for causing division amongst a team (don't tell me this rule won't). NASL is obviously there to make money (good thing btw) and if it is focused on making money it needs to think about the target audience. People want what they want and a fabulous way to get money from these people is to give them what they want. So what if we want Liquid to be able to field their entire lineup? Isn't part of being the best league in the world having the best players in the world? Cutting people out would only make it less prestigious.
NASL's first couple of seasons will be rocky, but I imagine if it gets up to speed we will all be pleased. It's no mystery to me why Day[9] and others are hesitant to throw their lot in with NASL, no one wants their name attached to what could be the Titanic of E-Sports. And just as much as it could be the Titanic it could be Saturn 5 of its generation.
To recap, people are upset because they were promised the best and to them it doesn't look like the hype has lived up to it. Most of us are also perturbed by the thought of this failing. So yes, everyone is jumping on Incontrol and the rest of them, to make this endeavor is a success.
I will still NASL regardless of all the above factors, provided it is not as bad as the showmatch (the games were fine, Jinro/IdrA fighting).
My primary issue shall be explained through the following example.
Take a look at the SCReddit Invitational, that little tournament is the highest quality tournament I have beheld in the foreign world (comparatively to its budget and infrastructure). And that whole tournament is appearing to be vastly superior to NASL's present image. Now, if NASL turns out to be a super high quality production I will be pleased. I imagine it will be better than that show match. However, my point is, if Reddit and their comparatively tiny budget can put together a better show, that is discouraging. Now, I'm not deaf to the difficulty of setting up a show match from Korea. And I freely admit that could excuse the quality of this production.
However, don't make promises you cannot keep, I was promised a live show match and was given a low quality, low res, bad audio pre-recorded cast of replays. If I had been promised the latter, I would have been happy. Don't make yourself out to be the best and not deliver. Case in point. So many paragraphs with nothing to say. Over and over and over. You just ranted away quite and literally said nothing other than that you're essentially worried for a reason you admit is likely to be proven wrong. Fantastic. Further, as Incontrol himself pointed out, all of the hyping was everybody else hyping. Incontrol mentioned it like 4 times, that's it. I'm pretty sure many of you are more interested in complaining about the NASL than you are about watching it, and it has nothing to do with the format. You've been on this forum and every post (almost) has been simply pushing YOUR OWN agenda about what YOU think is wrong and why YOU take issue with it. Most aren't able to acknowledge why they might be doing this instead of merely harping on the point that you don't like it. Guess what? I don't like stopping at red lights when I don't see anybody around, but I still understand why I should (obviously this analogy isn't about the NASL, but instead simply ideas you don't like). Take a step back, remove yourself emotionally from the conversation and simply understand why things they way they are. You can continue to disagree, but no amount of being pissed off and angry that it's not designed exactly the way you want it to be will suddenly make it perfect for you (not the keyword again, you). One thing I'm going to specifically mention again and pray gets read... The GSL and NASL are more alike than most of you want to admit, hell, even to the BW leagues. Those weren't open tournaments, you had to be a progamer already. The GSL instead of doing invites, already has their core players lined up because of their previous tournaments. If they wanted to be fair, wouldn't they themselves just hold open qualifiers again? Think of all of the other tournaments outside of korea as the NASL's qualifiers. There have been a wealth of tournaments in EU/NA for a chance for people to make their mark. The gsl still does hold open qualifiers for getting into code a, so what are you talking about?
Which in then gets led into Code S. If they were trying to be completely fair, as so many people are advocating, they would have to start each season with a clean slate like they did with the first 3 seasons. Why are they being so exclusive to people. OPEN MORE SPOTS UP OMG. The GSL would've loved to have been this organized their first seasons, but they had no basis of inviting people or ranking them. The NASL can.
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Bacon, I think you're missing the point. I'm not asking for things to be fair in the sense that you're reading. GSL allows anyone, provided they meet the qualifications to compete. NASL is deliberately cutting off players who are that good. There is a big difference. NASL could use an identical format to GSL and I would be fine or an identical format to GSL season one and I would still be fine. The issue is that they are artificially limiting the number of players a team can field.
For instance at the GSL oGs has a really profound presence there with their massive team. GSL does not limit oGs from bringing in additional players, what limits oGs is the fact that not every player they have can qualify for GSL, due to being un able to advance through the qualifier. NASL and GSL are completely different on that count.
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I don't think the nasl has enough basis honestly. I don't know why you're arguing against everyone. People can enter code A so I don't know the issue there. This is the start of a brand new tourney yet there's gonna be seeds? I don't know what you are getting at. Incontrol not hyping it? Seriously? I think you're the only one who agree with that
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On February 25 2011 10:04 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 09:54 cheesemaster wrote:On February 25 2011 09:43 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On February 25 2011 09:23 Incursus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think Manifesto hit the nail on the head. This whole thing was hyped as if it will be the best thing to ever hit E-Sports. It could very well be, however the production value that went into that showmatch has people feeling doubtful. These restrictions that they are placing on players are causing doubt amongst a lot of us too. This is not about feeling entitled this all comes down to wanting this to succeed, and badly.
I myself want this to work out, and if it is handled remotely similarly to that show match it will be a catastrophic failure. We were promised the best thing in E-Sports history, and it was hyped to the edge of reason. And this could very well be what we want precisely and it could be wildly successful, but please do not mistake criticism for disdain. People are critical because they are concerned about the success of this league.
I myself, like many others think that deliberately excluding players will be an unwise decision, there is no adequate justification for causing division amongst a team (don't tell me this rule won't). NASL is obviously there to make money (good thing btw) and if it is focused on making money it needs to think about the target audience. People want what they want and a fabulous way to get money from these people is to give them what they want. So what if we want Liquid to be able to field their entire lineup? Isn't part of being the best league in the world having the best players in the world? Cutting people out would only make it less prestigious.
NASL's first couple of seasons will be rocky, but I imagine if it gets up to speed we will all be pleased. It's no mystery to me why Day[9] and others are hesitant to throw their lot in with NASL, no one wants their name attached to what could be the Titanic of E-Sports. And just as much as it could be the Titanic it could be Saturn 5 of its generation.
To recap, people are upset because they were promised the best and to them it doesn't look like the hype has lived up to it. Most of us are also perturbed by the thought of this failing. So yes, everyone is jumping on Incontrol and the rest of them, to make this endeavor is a success.
I will still NASL regardless of all the above factors, provided it is not as bad as the showmatch (the games were fine, Jinro/IdrA fighting).
My primary issue shall be explained through the following example.
Take a look at the SCReddit Invitational, that little tournament is the highest quality tournament I have beheld in the foreign world (comparatively to its budget and infrastructure). And that whole tournament is appearing to be vastly superior to NASL's present image. Now, if NASL turns out to be a super high quality production I will be pleased. I imagine it will be better than that show match. However, my point is, if Reddit and their comparatively tiny budget can put together a better show, that is discouraging. Now, I'm not deaf to the difficulty of setting up a show match from Korea. And I freely admit that could excuse the quality of this production.
However, don't make promises you cannot keep, I was promised a live show match and was given a low quality, low res, bad audio pre-recorded cast of replays. If I had been promised the latter, I would have been happy. Don't make yourself out to be the best and not deliver. Case in point. So many paragraphs with nothing to say. Over and over and over. You just ranted away quite and literally said nothing other than that you're essentially worried for a reason you admit is likely to be proven wrong. Fantastic. Further, as Incontrol himself pointed out, all of the hyping was everybody else hyping. Incontrol mentioned it like 4 times, that's it. I'm pretty sure many of you are more interested in complaining about the NASL than you are about watching it, and it has nothing to do with the format. You've been on this forum and every post (almost) has been simply pushing YOUR OWN agenda about what YOU think is wrong and why YOU take issue with it. Most aren't able to acknowledge why they might be doing this instead of merely harping on the point that you don't like it. Guess what? I don't like stopping at red lights when I don't see anybody around, but I still understand why I should (obviously this analogy isn't about the NASL, but instead simply ideas you don't like). Take a step back, remove yourself emotionally from the conversation and simply understand why things they way they are. You can continue to disagree, but no amount of being pissed off and angry that it's not designed exactly the way you want it to be will suddenly make it perfect for you (not the keyword again, you). One thing I'm going to specifically mention again and pray gets read... The GSL and NASL are more alike than most of you want to admit, hell, even to the BW leagues. Those weren't open tournaments, you had to be a progamer already. The GSL instead of doing invites, already has their core players lined up because of their previous tournaments. If they wanted to be fair, wouldn't they themselves just hold open qualifiers again? Think of all of the other tournaments outside of korea as the NASL's qualifiers. There have been a wealth of tournaments in EU/NA for a chance for people to make their mark. The gsl still does hold open qualifiers for getting into code a, so what are you talking about? Which in then gets led into Code S. If they were trying to be completely fair, as so many people are advocating, they would have to start each season with a clean slate like they did with the first 3 seasons. Why are they being so exclusive to people. OPEN MORE SPOTS UP OMG. The GSL would've loved to have been this organized their first seasons, but they had no basis of inviting people or ranking them. The NASL can.
What are you talking about. The GSL does not have a team limit rule. Please tell me where you got your information. The best players can qualify through code A and move up to Code S in the up and down matches.
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On February 25 2011 10:07 Incursus wrote:
Bacon, I think you're missing the point. I'm not asking for things to be fair in the sense that you're reading. GSL allows anyone, provided they meet the qualifications to compete. NASL is deliberately cutting off players who are that good. There is a big difference. NASL could use an identical format to GSL and I would be fine or an identical format to GSL season one and I would still be fine. The issue is that they are artificially limiting the number of players a team can field.
For instance at the GSL oGs has a really profound presence there with their massive team. GSL does not limit oGs from bringing in additional players, what limits oGs is the fact that not every player they have can qualify for GSL, due to being un able to advance through the qualifier. NASL and GSL are completely different on that count.
The team argument is so, so, so, so, so, so, so limited it's not even funny. People like to complain that Liquid is getting singled out almost, but I disagree, I don't think they have 6 people who deserve a spot objectively. I actually think it's funny since they could remove the rule about teams and it really shouldn't change who is invited and who is not.
addendum: There are a lot of conversations nitpicking at various things so it's hard to keep track. Some people are taking an issue that only 5 from a team can be on, some are taking issue that you have to be on a team at all, and some are complaining that it shouldn't be done through invites regardless. My comments about the GSL are directed at the 3rd group demanding an entirely open field.
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where can I see the shomatch?
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It just seems to me that I love Bacon is just defending any criticisms that come the way of the NASL. Not all of the reasons he's bringing to the table are valid. I understand that Team Liquid can be over-critical, but when it comes to tournaments that aren't happening yet, its reasonable to voice our concerns. So let me ask you this bacon, would you HONESTLY prefer the way they plan vs the GSL version... what do you think would be better for e sports in the west. If you say the former then that just means you disagree with most of the spectators here at team liquid as well many of the mods and professional players themselves.
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On February 25 2011 10:14 adeezy wrote:
It just seems to me that I love Bacon is just defending any criticisms that come the way of the NASL. Not all of the reasons he's bringing to the table are valid. I understand that Team Liquid can be over-critical, but when it comes to tournaments that aren't happening yet, its reasonable to voice our concerns. So let me ask you this bacon, would you HONESTLY prefer the way they plan vs the GSL version... what do you think would be better for e sports in the west. If you say the former then that just means you disagree with most of the commentator base.
Before I post my opinion, never take the fact that people are commenting on a subject a lot to mean it's the majority. The loud minority are always loud by definition. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people who will watch the NASL wont care about this issue at all. There were 15,000+ (note, the counter was broken after that point) watching the showmatch. I don't think anywhere close to that number of different people have posted their concerns.
The question as to what I prefer, GSL vs NASL is a loaded question with a lot of facets. The better way to word it is what do I prefer: GSL season 1 vs NASL season 1 in terms of format. My answer to that is 100% the NASL season 1 over GSL season 1.
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Bacon, my only issue is that due to this rule some good players (Liquid or otherwise) may be excluded from playing by an arbitrary rule. That is all. There are plenty of players that have more 5 players. You do make a good point though, not every team has a player that deserves to be there. But I think it would be best to determine that through a qualifier, let's prove who deserves to be there.
I also think that the makers of NASL will be pleased to see that people care enough to respond, don't you wish that before every major decision you made that you could consult literally thousands of people who have a vested interest in your success as a person?
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On February 25 2011 10:13 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 10:07 Incursus wrote:
Bacon, I think you're missing the point. I'm not asking for things to be fair in the sense that you're reading. GSL allows anyone, provided they meet the qualifications to compete. NASL is deliberately cutting off players who are that good. There is a big difference. NASL could use an identical format to GSL and I would be fine or an identical format to GSL season one and I would still be fine. The issue is that they are artificially limiting the number of players a team can field.
For instance at the GSL oGs has a really profound presence there with their massive team. GSL does not limit oGs from bringing in additional players, what limits oGs is the fact that not every player they have can qualify for GSL, due to being un able to advance through the qualifier. NASL and GSL are completely different on that count. The team argument is so, so, so, so, so, so, so limited it's not even funny. People like to complain that Liquid is getting singled out almost, but I disagree, I don't think they have 6 people who deserve a spot objectively. I actually think it's funny since they could remove the rule about teams and it really shouldn't change who is invited and who is not. addendum: There are a lot of conversations nitpicking at various things so it's hard to keep track. Some people are taking an issue that only 5 from a team can be on, some are taking issue that you have to be on a team at all, and some are complaining that it shouldn't be done through invites regardless. My comments about the GSL are directed at the 3rd group demanding an entirely open field.
I don't understanding why you're singling out Team Liquid. You're nitpicking and latching on a tangent argument that has no bearing on the discussion at hand. As a point of reference, check out the thread Tyler made regarding the 5 player limit. You should also read the whole thread. There are some good valid arguments. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=195768
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After all this, InControL is coming off as an insecure douchebag who seeks for attention. I always liked Inc but I can't help to view him as this huge attentionwhore who loves to talk down on people but can't handle the flak when it comes back to him.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 25 2011 10:20 InRainbows wrote:
After all this, InControL is coming off as an insecure douchebag who seeks for attention. I always liked Inc but I can't help to view him as this huge attentionwhore who loves to talk down on people but can't handle the flak when it comes back to him.
I would edit before you get warned/banned.
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On February 25 2011 10:18 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 10:14 adeezy wrote:
It just seems to me that I love Bacon is just defending any criticisms that come the way of the NASL. Not all of the reasons he's bringing to the table are valid. I understand that Team Liquid can be over-critical, but when it comes to tournaments that aren't happening yet, its reasonable to voice our concerns. So let me ask you this bacon, would you HONESTLY prefer the way they plan vs the GSL version... what do you think would be better for e sports in the west. If you say the former then that just means you disagree with most of the commentator base. Before I post my opinion, never take the fact that people are commenting on a subject a lot to mean it's the majority. The loud minority are always loud by definition. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people who will watch the NASL wont care about this issue at all. There were 15,000+ (note, the counter was broken after that point) watching the showmatch. I don't think anywhere close to that number of different people have posted their concerns. The question as to what I prefer, GSL vs NASL is a loaded question with a lot of facets. The better way to word it is what do I prefer: GSL season 1 vs NASL season 1 in terms of format. My answer to that is 100% the NASL season 1 over GSL season 1.
Just because not everyone is posting doesn't mean people don't actually care about the issue. They are probably just uninformed and we'll just watch whatever is on. The showmatch? Have you read the live report thread? There was a TON of concerns and complaints about the production quality. I didn't really mind it. I just muted it and continued to watch so I wouldn't be confused about the audio.
And if youre really getting on my question as a loaded question, im sorry I didnt phrase it as an objective survey question. And it sincerely surprises me that you would choose NASL season 1 over GSL season 1. For that I'm just gonna respect your opinion and well. I'm just not going to argue with you anymore.
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On February 25 2011 10:19 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 10:13 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On February 25 2011 10:07 Incursus wrote:
Bacon, I think you're missing the point. I'm not asking for things to be fair in the sense that you're reading. GSL allows anyone, provided they meet the qualifications to compete. NASL is deliberately cutting off players who are that good. There is a big difference. NASL could use an identical format to GSL and I would be fine or an identical format to GSL season one and I would still be fine. The issue is that they are artificially limiting the number of players a team can field.
For instance at the GSL oGs has a really profound presence there with their massive team. GSL does not limit oGs from bringing in additional players, what limits oGs is the fact that not every player they have can qualify for GSL, due to being un able to advance through the qualifier. NASL and GSL are completely different on that count. The team argument is so, so, so, so, so, so, so limited it's not even funny. People like to complain that Liquid is getting singled out almost, but I disagree, I don't think they have 6 people who deserve a spot objectively. I actually think it's funny since they could remove the rule about teams and it really shouldn't change who is invited and who is not. addendum: There are a lot of conversations nitpicking at various things so it's hard to keep track. Some people are taking an issue that only 5 from a team can be on, some are taking issue that you have to be on a team at all, and some are complaining that it shouldn't be done through invites regardless. My comments about the GSL are directed at the 3rd group demanding an entirely open field. I don't understanding why you're singling out Team Liquid. You're nitpicking and latching on a tangent argument that has no bearing on the discussion at hand. As a point of reference, check out the thread Tyler made regarding the 5 player limit. You should also read the whole thread. There are some good valid arguments. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=195768
I understand the argument completely, and I still don't care. I get where there is concern, but I understand what NASL is hoping to accomplish (or at least perceive to be their goal). By forcing the team issue on 2 fronts (note, I believe they've also said that spots will shift around from season to season possibly, so this might only be an issue for the first 1) in that you have to be on a team and they'll give additional spots, this will actually strengthen the team relevancy. This is a good thing. Teams should be a more important role than they are now in a lot of cases and not merely a tag somebody has on their name as an identifier. By making teams more relevant it actually pushes us closer to the hopeful model of Korea where people can live in house together because being on that good team has additional relevance.
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NASL is putting on 5 days a week programming. I'm sure they will do their best to find the best representation of players they can. And yeah they will pick players with both skill and charisma I'm sure. Do you harp on the NHL because not every select hockey player was invited to camp for tryouts?? No? So let the NASL pick their own players according to what will make the most compelling tv.
Fin.
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It's ashame to see so much bashing of the NASL before it is even started, better yet even fully announced. It's ashame to see a guy like Incontrol get bashed after everything he has done for the community, including being a key piece of the NASL. Do you guys think that their sponsor(s), whoever they may be, didn't know Geoff was going to be the face of NASL? Do you think they don't know who he is? I highly doubt they get $400,000 without that being discussed and the sponsor(s) to approve of it.
Is it perfect? No, nothing is. You can't ever please everyone. But a lot of the things they are doing make a lot sense. The NASL is a fragile thing, so they need to be extremely careful in how things are done. Hence these rules that some think will make it fail.
The team rule is one. The NASL cannot afford to have people no show up and miss their matches. It would be devastating. They need to take every precaution that everyone will be there. Being on a team help secure that. Also being on a team shows some responsibility in a player, adding to the idea of being accountable. I agree the NBA comparison is terrible. But you know whats a great one? NASCAR. Its essentially a driver vs driver sport, yet you need to be on a team to race because it helps hold everyone accountable. They have a financial backing to perform like needed.
Being an invite only tournament makes sense too. To make sure this is popular the popular players need to be in it. Risking popular players being knocked out in a best of one match up in a qualifier would be tragic. Also this is simply something they are doing for the first season. They have said players that go through the open and are successful will be in the league the next season. Get the popular players (who are also top players) in the league help generate interest in it. As it grows, then you can start having some qualifiers and such.
For the whole LIVE situation, sure it would be great to be live, they know it, why do you think the final matches will be live? But when having players compete from all over the world, it makes more sense for the players for it to be done at times that work best for everyone. With all the things that can go on in a live broadcast (players dropping, casters dropping, stream cheating, etc.) it is safest to do things they way they are. Oh and did you guys know that LIVE sporting events used to be handled this same exact way? NBA finals games were played and then aired later. It still happens in many other competitions such as Jeopardy, Survivor, and others. If they could have every competitor in LA it would be a different story. But thats not realistic. Eventually it may be. Just because its being done this way now, doesn't mean it will be in the future.
I can't believe people think that a $400,000 tournament based in Los Angeles that will feature some of the best players from around the world isn't living up to the hype. What more do people want?
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On February 25 2011 10:23 adeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 10:18 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On February 25 2011 10:14 adeezy wrote:
It just seems to me that I love Bacon is just defending any criticisms that come the way of the NASL. Not all of the reasons he's bringing to the table are valid. I understand that Team Liquid can be over-critical, but when it comes to tournaments that aren't happening yet, its reasonable to voice our concerns. So let me ask you this bacon, would you HONESTLY prefer the way they plan vs the GSL version... what do you think would be better for e sports in the west. If you say the former then that just means you disagree with most of the commentator base. Before I post my opinion, never take the fact that people are commenting on a subject a lot to mean it's the majority. The loud minority are always loud by definition. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people who will watch the NASL wont care about this issue at all. There were 15,000+ (note, the counter was broken after that point) watching the showmatch. I don't think anywhere close to that number of different people have posted their concerns. The question as to what I prefer, GSL vs NASL is a loaded question with a lot of facets. The better way to word it is what do I prefer: GSL season 1 vs NASL season 1 in terms of format. My answer to that is 100% the NASL season 1 over GSL season 1. Just because not everyone is posting doesn't mean people don't actually care about the issue. They are probably just uninformed and we'll just watch whatever is on. The showmatch? Have you read the live report thread? There was a TON of concerns and complaints about the production quality. I didn't really mind it. I just muted it and continued to watch so I wouldn't be confused about the audio. And if youre really getting on my question as a loaded question, im sorry I didnt phrase it as an objective survey question. And it sincerely surprises me that you would choose NASL season 1 over GSL season 1. For that I'm just gonna respect your opinion and well. I'm just not going to argue with you anymore.
Allow me to explain instead of walking away because I think it's important. The team issue aside (because, like I said, it doesn't really matter at the moment). The GSL season 1 was an open qualifier filled with terribles upon terribles who managed to play televised and important matches. This happened in following seasons as well. The NASL can completely circumnavigate this issue. The GSL had no choice in how they ran their league at the start because there wasn't an established player base. The NASL, while a new entity, already has results from around the world to use to objectively try and gauge a player and determine if they should be invited. NASL season 1 is essentially GSL Season 4 because they already have information used from other leagues, just no their own.
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EPT
