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Before you post, read the title of this thread slowly and out loud. |
On February 25 2011 10:18 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 10:14 adeezy wrote:
It just seems to me that I love Bacon is just defending any criticisms that come the way of the NASL. Not all of the reasons he's bringing to the table are valid. I understand that Team Liquid can be over-critical, but when it comes to tournaments that aren't happening yet, its reasonable to voice our concerns. So let me ask you this bacon, would you HONESTLY prefer the way they plan vs the GSL version... what do you think would be better for e sports in the west. If you say the former then that just means you disagree with most of the commentator base. Before I post my opinion, never take the fact that people are commenting on a subject a lot to mean it's the majority. The loud minority are always loud by definition. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people who will watch the NASL wont care about this issue at all. There were 15,000+ (note, the counter was broken after that point) watching the showmatch. I don't think anywhere close to that number of different people have posted their concerns. The question as to what I prefer, GSL vs NASL is a loaded question with a lot of facets. The better way to word it is what do I prefer: GSL season 1 vs NASL season 1 in terms of format. My answer to that is 100% the NASL season 1 over GSL season 1.
the NASL season hasn't started yet and you go rate it better then gsl. That is just stupid bias opinion.
User was warned for this post
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On February 25 2011 10:31 bullic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 10:18 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On February 25 2011 10:14 adeezy wrote:
It just seems to me that I love Bacon is just defending any criticisms that come the way of the NASL. Not all of the reasons he's bringing to the table are valid. I understand that Team Liquid can be over-critical, but when it comes to tournaments that aren't happening yet, its reasonable to voice our concerns. So let me ask you this bacon, would you HONESTLY prefer the way they plan vs the GSL version... what do you think would be better for e sports in the west. If you say the former then that just means you disagree with most of the commentator base. Before I post my opinion, never take the fact that people are commenting on a subject a lot to mean it's the majority. The loud minority are always loud by definition. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people who will watch the NASL wont care about this issue at all. There were 15,000+ (note, the counter was broken after that point) watching the showmatch. I don't think anywhere close to that number of different people have posted their concerns. The question as to what I prefer, GSL vs NASL is a loaded question with a lot of facets. The better way to word it is what do I prefer: GSL season 1 vs NASL season 1 in terms of format. My answer to that is 100% the NASL season 1 over GSL season 1. the NASL season hasn't started yet and you go rate it better then gsl. That is just stupid bias opinion.
Learn to read; I said format. It has nothing to do with the games played, production value, casters, etc...
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On February 25 2011 10:32 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 10:31 bullic wrote:On February 25 2011 10:18 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On February 25 2011 10:14 adeezy wrote:
It just seems to me that I love Bacon is just defending any criticisms that come the way of the NASL. Not all of the reasons he's bringing to the table are valid. I understand that Team Liquid can be over-critical, but when it comes to tournaments that aren't happening yet, its reasonable to voice our concerns. So let me ask you this bacon, would you HONESTLY prefer the way they plan vs the GSL version... what do you think would be better for e sports in the west. If you say the former then that just means you disagree with most of the commentator base. Before I post my opinion, never take the fact that people are commenting on a subject a lot to mean it's the majority. The loud minority are always loud by definition. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people who will watch the NASL wont care about this issue at all. There were 15,000+ (note, the counter was broken after that point) watching the showmatch. I don't think anywhere close to that number of different people have posted their concerns. The question as to what I prefer, GSL vs NASL is a loaded question with a lot of facets. The better way to word it is what do I prefer: GSL season 1 vs NASL season 1 in terms of format. My answer to that is 100% the NASL season 1 over GSL season 1. the NASL season hasn't started yet and you go rate it better then gsl. That is just stupid bias opinion. Learn to read; I said format. It has nothing to do with the games played, production value, casters, etc...
How do you know if this format gonna work. You have to wait for the season to be over, to see how the players play under this format to make a judgment.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On February 25 2011 10:01 Incursus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 09:43 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On February 25 2011 09:23 Incursus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think Manifesto hit the nail on the head. This whole thing was hyped as if it will be the best thing to ever hit E-Sports. It could very well be, however the production value that went into that showmatch has people feeling doubtful. These restrictions that they are placing on players are causing doubt amongst a lot of us too. This is not about feeling entitled this all comes down to wanting this to succeed, and badly.
I myself want this to work out, and if it is handled remotely similarly to that show match it will be a catastrophic failure. We were promised the best thing in E-Sports history, and it was hyped to the edge of reason. And this could very well be what we want precisely and it could be wildly successful, but please do not mistake criticism for disdain. People are critical because they are concerned about the success of this league.
I myself, like many others think that deliberately excluding players will be an unwise decision, there is no adequate justification for causing division amongst a team (don't tell me this rule won't). NASL is obviously there to make money (good thing btw) and if it is focused on making money it needs to think about the target audience. People want what they want and a fabulous way to get money from these people is to give them what they want. So what if we want Liquid to be able to field their entire lineup? Isn't part of being the best league in the world having the best players in the world? Cutting people out would only make it less prestigious.
NASL's first couple of seasons will be rocky, but I imagine if it gets up to speed we will all be pleased. It's no mystery to me why Day[9] and others are hesitant to throw their lot in with NASL, no one wants their name attached to what could be the Titanic of E-Sports. And just as much as it could be the Titanic it could be Saturn 5 of its generation.
To recap, people are upset because they were promised the best and to them it doesn't look like the hype has lived up to it. Most of us are also perturbed by the thought of this failing. So yes, everyone is jumping on Incontrol and the rest of them, to make this endeavor is a success.
I will still NASL regardless of all the above factors, provided it is not as bad as the showmatch (the games were fine, Jinro/IdrA fighting).
My primary issue shall be explained through the following example.
Take a look at the SCReddit Invitational, that little tournament is the highest quality tournament I have beheld in the foreign world (comparatively to its budget and infrastructure). And that whole tournament is appearing to be vastly superior to NASL's present image. Now, if NASL turns out to be a super high quality production I will be pleased. I imagine it will be better than that show match. However, my point is, if Reddit and their comparatively tiny budget can put together a better show, that is discouraging. Now, I'm not deaf to the difficulty of setting up a show match from Korea. And I freely admit that could excuse the quality of this production.
However, don't make promises you cannot keep, I was promised a live show match and was given a low quality, low res, bad audio pre-recorded cast of replays. If I had been promised the latter, I would have been happy. Don't make yourself out to be the best and not deliver. Case in point. + Show Spoiler +So many paragraphs with nothing to say. Over and over and over. You just ranted away quite and literally said nothing other than that you're essentially worried for a reason you admit is likely to be proven wrong. Fantastic. Further, as Incontrol himself pointed out, all of the hyping was everybody else hyping. Incontrol mentioned it like 4 times, that's it.
I'm pretty sure many of you are more interested in complaining about the NASL than you are about watching it, and it has nothing to do with the format. You've been on this forum and every post (almost) has been simply pushing YOUR OWN agenda about what YOU think is wrong and why YOU take issue with it. Most aren't able to acknowledge why they might be doing this instead of merely harping on the point that you don't like it. Guess what? I don't like stopping at red lights when I don't see anybody around, but I still understand why I should (obviously this analogy isn't about the NASL, but instead simply ideas you don't like).
Take a step back, remove yourself emotionally from the conversation and simply understand why things they way they are. You can continue to disagree, but no amount of being pissed off and angry that it's not designed exactly the way you want it to be will suddenly make it perfect for you (not the keyword again, you).
One thing I'm going to specifically mention again and pray gets read... The GSL and NASL are more alike than most of you want to admit, hell, even to the BW leagues. Those weren't open tournaments, you had to be a progamer already. The GSL instead of doing invites, already has their core players lined up because of their previous tournaments. If they wanted to be fair, wouldn't they themselves just hold open qualifiers again? Think of all of the other tournaments outside of korea as the NASL's qualifiers. There have been a wealth of tournaments in EU/NA for a chance for people to make their mark. I wasn't really attempting to argue a point, I was merely expressing my opinion of the situation at hand. If you think I was complaining that is not the case, I am thoroughly exited about the league. I am just expressing my worries. I really want to see this succeed, and I like many others am in the rare of position of having a platform to air my concerns. I am doing so, as are you. I was offering my analysis as to why there is a lot of contention about this and then offering my own thoughts. I for one will watch NASL regardless of what they do as I said before. (Provided the stream is bearable and according to Incontrol it will be.) Also, do not tell me he did not Hype this a bunch. Incontrol knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he began this hype campaign. He was blowing this thing way up, and quite frankly I can see why, I do believe it will live up to the hype. I think the issue here is that people are worried the NASL will be like that showmatch. And if it is there's gonna be issues with viewers I imagine. GSL does not restrict team members from playing though, I for one have no problem with team killing, they're gonna have to play each other any how so why does it matter when. GSL has a method for new players to get in on the GSL as well, work your way through Code A and the qualifiers for it and you can participate, Simple. Much more difficult to actually do of course, but the concept is there. The only real criticism outside of people's personal preferences seems to be the player issue. I don't think it will be league breaking, I just think the decision was not focused on the future. Although on State of the Game we were told this rule could also be done away with in the future. And this post is probably like my last one, I'm trying to contribute to this discussion, in my own way. I don't have the deep understanding of these events that many others do, so I am avoiding nit picking specific things. The only issue I am concerned about is the inability for a team to enter all their best players in the league, and why that choice was made arbitrarily. If teams have a lot of good players they should be able to enter all of them. Even if they can't I don't think it will torpedo NASL.
No need to apologize. You expressed yourself well in both your posts, bacon is being unnecessarily abrasive. I'm sure most people feel the way you do. People criticise because they want something to live up to its promise, not because they are not supportive. The TSL experienced the same thing. Even though we have Nestea, Fruitdealer, MC, MVP, Boxer, and Nada in one tournament, a Korean line-up unheard of in international tournaments, people were still furious with one or two of the invites because they felt the tournament did not live up to what it could have been. When a tournament promises a lot, fans want to ensure that it delivers.
Hosting a tournament requires a thick skin. It requires the strength to stick to your decisions regarldess of public outcry, but also the ability to admit when you've made a mistake. Knowing when to do what comes with experience, and there's a lot of experience in the SC community. I hope the NASL organizers are taking advantage of that.
In the end, we all want the NASL to succeed. The organizers have done a great job on the business end of the tournament. The prizemoney is amazing, the deal with justin.tv is great, and the premium ticket seems like a good deal. All we, as fans, want to do is ensure that everything else is on par with the prize money. The organizers made life difficult for themselves by not preparing the announcement properly (including the showmatch and the rules), but there's a lot of time for them to get things right before the NASL launch.
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On February 25 2011 10:30 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 10:23 adeezy wrote:On February 25 2011 10:18 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On February 25 2011 10:14 adeezy wrote:
It just seems to me that I love Bacon is just defending any criticisms that come the way of the NASL. Not all of the reasons he's bringing to the table are valid. I understand that Team Liquid can be over-critical, but when it comes to tournaments that aren't happening yet, its reasonable to voice our concerns. So let me ask you this bacon, would you HONESTLY prefer the way they plan vs the GSL version... what do you think would be better for e sports in the west. If you say the former then that just means you disagree with most of the commentator base. Before I post my opinion, never take the fact that people are commenting on a subject a lot to mean it's the majority. The loud minority are always loud by definition. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people who will watch the NASL wont care about this issue at all. There were 15,000+ (note, the counter was broken after that point) watching the showmatch. I don't think anywhere close to that number of different people have posted their concerns. The question as to what I prefer, GSL vs NASL is a loaded question with a lot of facets. The better way to word it is what do I prefer: GSL season 1 vs NASL season 1 in terms of format. My answer to that is 100% the NASL season 1 over GSL season 1. Just because not everyone is posting doesn't mean people don't actually care about the issue. They are probably just uninformed and we'll just watch whatever is on. The showmatch? Have you read the live report thread? There was a TON of concerns and complaints about the production quality. I didn't really mind it. I just muted it and continued to watch so I wouldn't be confused about the audio. And if youre really getting on my question as a loaded question, im sorry I didnt phrase it as an objective survey question. And it sincerely surprises me that you would choose NASL season 1 over GSL season 1. For that I'm just gonna respect your opinion and well. I'm just not going to argue with you anymore. Allow me to explain instead of walking away because I think it's important. The team issue aside (because, like I said, it doesn't really matter at the moment). The GSL season 1 was an open qualifier filled with terribles upon terribles who managed to play televised and important matches. This happened in following seasons as well. The NASL can completely circumnavigate this issue. The GSL had no choice in how they ran their league at the start because there wasn't an established player base. The NASL, while a new entity, already has results from around the world to use to objectively try and gauge a player and determine if they should be invited. NASL season 1 is essentially GSL Season 4 because they already have information used from other leagues, just no their own.
As much as we have worldwide results and that it could be used to objectively try and gauge a player to determine their invitation, I sincerely doubt it's going to go that smooth.
Along with the team rule which limits who gets to enter. Can you imagine if this rule was in the GSL? oGs would be clipped. 7 oGs in code S alone in a 32 man bracket.
I just can't see any way invitations could be completely objective. It's possible in theory but to see it's execution. People complained about the TSL invites, can you imagine invites for a much larger bracket with a much larger prize pool. I don't know man...
By the way Daigomi sums up how I feel about the matter completely. Thanks for that
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"We want to try to create as even a playing field as possible for teams. This is why we have allocated a maximum of 5. Some teams are not big enough to field five players, but we feel that it's a good idea to have a max of five to get as much diversity as possible."
Diversity of players is more important than diversity of teams.
Also, I really hope they will never cut back to the casters again in the middle of a game, because that was incredibly annoying.
That said, I'm looking forward to NASL! Like GSL that I won't have to stay up until 2 in the morning for, and a much different variety of players
Question: will there be a Code S and A and whatnot after the first three seasons?
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On February 25 2011 10:36 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 10:01 Incursus wrote:On February 25 2011 09:43 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On February 25 2011 09:23 Incursus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think Manifesto hit the nail on the head. This whole thing was hyped as if it will be the best thing to ever hit E-Sports. It could very well be, however the production value that went into that showmatch has people feeling doubtful. These restrictions that they are placing on players are causing doubt amongst a lot of us too. This is not about feeling entitled this all comes down to wanting this to succeed, and badly.
I myself want this to work out, and if it is handled remotely similarly to that show match it will be a catastrophic failure. We were promised the best thing in E-Sports history, and it was hyped to the edge of reason. And this could very well be what we want precisely and it could be wildly successful, but please do not mistake criticism for disdain. People are critical because they are concerned about the success of this league.
I myself, like many others think that deliberately excluding players will be an unwise decision, there is no adequate justification for causing division amongst a team (don't tell me this rule won't). NASL is obviously there to make money (good thing btw) and if it is focused on making money it needs to think about the target audience. People want what they want and a fabulous way to get money from these people is to give them what they want. So what if we want Liquid to be able to field their entire lineup? Isn't part of being the best league in the world having the best players in the world? Cutting people out would only make it less prestigious.
NASL's first couple of seasons will be rocky, but I imagine if it gets up to speed we will all be pleased. It's no mystery to me why Day[9] and others are hesitant to throw their lot in with NASL, no one wants their name attached to what could be the Titanic of E-Sports. And just as much as it could be the Titanic it could be Saturn 5 of its generation.
To recap, people are upset because they were promised the best and to them it doesn't look like the hype has lived up to it. Most of us are also perturbed by the thought of this failing. So yes, everyone is jumping on Incontrol and the rest of them, to make this endeavor is a success.
I will still NASL regardless of all the above factors, provided it is not as bad as the showmatch (the games were fine, Jinro/IdrA fighting).
My primary issue shall be explained through the following example.
Take a look at the SCReddit Invitational, that little tournament is the highest quality tournament I have beheld in the foreign world (comparatively to its budget and infrastructure). And that whole tournament is appearing to be vastly superior to NASL's present image. Now, if NASL turns out to be a super high quality production I will be pleased. I imagine it will be better than that show match. However, my point is, if Reddit and their comparatively tiny budget can put together a better show, that is discouraging. Now, I'm not deaf to the difficulty of setting up a show match from Korea. And I freely admit that could excuse the quality of this production.
However, don't make promises you cannot keep, I was promised a live show match and was given a low quality, low res, bad audio pre-recorded cast of replays. If I had been promised the latter, I would have been happy. Don't make yourself out to be the best and not deliver. Case in point. + Show Spoiler +So many paragraphs with nothing to say. Over and over and over. You just ranted away quite and literally said nothing other than that you're essentially worried for a reason you admit is likely to be proven wrong. Fantastic. Further, as Incontrol himself pointed out, all of the hyping was everybody else hyping. Incontrol mentioned it like 4 times, that's it.
I'm pretty sure many of you are more interested in complaining about the NASL than you are about watching it, and it has nothing to do with the format. You've been on this forum and every post (almost) has been simply pushing YOUR OWN agenda about what YOU think is wrong and why YOU take issue with it. Most aren't able to acknowledge why they might be doing this instead of merely harping on the point that you don't like it. Guess what? I don't like stopping at red lights when I don't see anybody around, but I still understand why I should (obviously this analogy isn't about the NASL, but instead simply ideas you don't like).
Take a step back, remove yourself emotionally from the conversation and simply understand why things they way they are. You can continue to disagree, but no amount of being pissed off and angry that it's not designed exactly the way you want it to be will suddenly make it perfect for you (not the keyword again, you).
One thing I'm going to specifically mention again and pray gets read... The GSL and NASL are more alike than most of you want to admit, hell, even to the BW leagues. Those weren't open tournaments, you had to be a progamer already. The GSL instead of doing invites, already has their core players lined up because of their previous tournaments. If they wanted to be fair, wouldn't they themselves just hold open qualifiers again? Think of all of the other tournaments outside of korea as the NASL's qualifiers. There have been a wealth of tournaments in EU/NA for a chance for people to make their mark. I wasn't really attempting to argue a point, I was merely expressing my opinion of the situation at hand. If you think I was complaining that is not the case, I am thoroughly exited about the league. I am just expressing my worries. I really want to see this succeed, and I like many others am in the rare of position of having a platform to air my concerns. I am doing so, as are you. I was offering my analysis as to why there is a lot of contention about this and then offering my own thoughts. I for one will watch NASL regardless of what they do as I said before. (Provided the stream is bearable and according to Incontrol it will be.) Also, do not tell me he did not Hype this a bunch. Incontrol knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he began this hype campaign. He was blowing this thing way up, and quite frankly I can see why, I do believe it will live up to the hype. I think the issue here is that people are worried the NASL will be like that showmatch. And if it is there's gonna be issues with viewers I imagine. GSL does not restrict team members from playing though, I for one have no problem with team killing, they're gonna have to play each other any how so why does it matter when. GSL has a method for new players to get in on the GSL as well, work your way through Code A and the qualifiers for it and you can participate, Simple. Much more difficult to actually do of course, but the concept is there. The only real criticism outside of people's personal preferences seems to be the player issue. I don't think it will be league breaking, I just think the decision was not focused on the future. Although on State of the Game we were told this rule could also be done away with in the future. And this post is probably like my last one, I'm trying to contribute to this discussion, in my own way. I don't have the deep understanding of these events that many others do, so I am avoiding nit picking specific things. The only issue I am concerned about is the inability for a team to enter all their best players in the league, and why that choice was made arbitrarily. If teams have a lot of good players they should be able to enter all of them. Even if they can't I don't think it will torpedo NASL. + Show Spoiler +
No need to apologize. You expressed yourself well in both your posts, bacon is being unnecessarily abrasive. I'm sure most people feel the way you do. People criticise because they want something to live up to its promise, not because they are not supportive. The TSL experienced the same thing. Even though we have Nestea, Fruitdealer, MC, MVP, Boxer, and Nada in one tournament, a Korean line-up unheard of in international tournaments, people were still furious with one or two of the invites because they felt the tournament did not live up to what it could have been. When a tournament promises a lot, fans want to ensure that it delivers.
Hosting a tournament requires a thick skin. It requires the strength to stick to your decisions regarldess of public outcry, but also the ability to admit when you've made a mistake. Knowing when to do what comes with experience, and there's a lot of experience in the SC community. I hope the NASL organizers are taking advantage of that.
In the end, we all want the NASL to succeed. The organizers have done a great job on the business end of the tournament. The prizemoney is amazing, the deal with justin.tv is great, and the premium ticket seems like a good deal. All we, as fans, want to do is ensure that everything else is on par with the prize money. The organizers made life difficult for themselves by not preparing the announcement properly (including the showmatch and the rules), but there's a lot of time for them to get things right before the NASL launch.
Thank you for your post. I'm relieved to see that I was not misread. I post because I really do care, and I am really pumped for this tournament. The things I have pointed out will not deter me from watching in the end. I just want to see this thing be as awesome as it can be.
More power to people like Incontrol, without people like him and those at Gosu Coaching there would be no forward momentum in E-Sports. People can take shots at Incontrol all they like, but what he is doing here is important and we really should support it.
Also to Bacon, I really do appreciate your opinion and passion on this matter. People like you drive this machine forward, every once in a while we all have to be content with what we have and try to make it work instead of poking at it. I appreciate and understand the frustration.
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On February 25 2011 11:00 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
Question: will there be a Code S and A and whatnot after the first three seasons?
I think the question to answer 1st is "Will there be another season after the three guaranteed ones?"
I don't think anybody knows the answer to that question yet.
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On February 25 2011 10:39 adeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 10:30 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On February 25 2011 10:23 adeezy wrote:On February 25 2011 10:18 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On February 25 2011 10:14 adeezy wrote:
It just seems to me that I love Bacon is just defending any criticisms that come the way of the NASL. Not all of the reasons he's bringing to the table are valid. I understand that Team Liquid can be over-critical, but when it comes to tournaments that aren't happening yet, its reasonable to voice our concerns. So let me ask you this bacon, would you HONESTLY prefer the way they plan vs the GSL version... what do you think would be better for e sports in the west. If you say the former then that just means you disagree with most of the commentator base. Before I post my opinion, never take the fact that people are commenting on a subject a lot to mean it's the majority. The loud minority are always loud by definition. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people who will watch the NASL wont care about this issue at all. There were 15,000+ (note, the counter was broken after that point) watching the showmatch. I don't think anywhere close to that number of different people have posted their concerns. The question as to what I prefer, GSL vs NASL is a loaded question with a lot of facets. The better way to word it is what do I prefer: GSL season 1 vs NASL season 1 in terms of format. My answer to that is 100% the NASL season 1 over GSL season 1. Just because not everyone is posting doesn't mean people don't actually care about the issue. They are probably just uninformed and we'll just watch whatever is on. The showmatch? Have you read the live report thread? There was a TON of concerns and complaints about the production quality. I didn't really mind it. I just muted it and continued to watch so I wouldn't be confused about the audio. And if youre really getting on my question as a loaded question, im sorry I didnt phrase it as an objective survey question. And it sincerely surprises me that you would choose NASL season 1 over GSL season 1. For that I'm just gonna respect your opinion and well. I'm just not going to argue with you anymore. Allow me to explain instead of walking away because I think it's important. The team issue aside (because, like I said, it doesn't really matter at the moment). The GSL season 1 was an open qualifier filled with terribles upon terribles who managed to play televised and important matches. This happened in following seasons as well. The NASL can completely circumnavigate this issue. The GSL had no choice in how they ran their league at the start because there wasn't an established player base. The NASL, while a new entity, already has results from around the world to use to objectively try and gauge a player and determine if they should be invited. NASL season 1 is essentially GSL Season 4 because they already have information used from other leagues, just no their own. As much as we have worldwide results and that it could be used to objectively try and gauge a player to determine their invitation, I sincerely doubt it's going to go that smooth. Along with the team rule which limits who gets to enter. Can you imagine if this rule was in the GSL? oGs would be clipped. 7 oGs in code S alone in a 32 man bracket. I just can't see any way invitations could be completely objective. It's possible in theory but to see it's execution. People complained about the TSL invites, can you imagine invites for a much larger bracket with a much larger prize pool. I don't know man... By the way Daigomi sums up how I feel about the matter completely. Thanks for that
I completely understand why people can be worried. Where I take issue is that a lot of people can't seem to separate fear and anger from their posts. You can be a little worried that a player you like that is on the fringe wont get invited... that's an understandable fear. Of course there will be players left out who are relatively deserving, there are a lot of players in those last 10-20 spots who can all make arguments as to why they should be there.
The team issue to me is good and bad. I like it because I like where it's trying to push teams. I'm not bothered by it because I don't think any team has 6 players who have earned a spot on the invite list. I am worried if it is applied wrong for future seasons more so than the present one, because it certainly leaves a loooot of room for arguments and problems. While I like the idea, if I personally set up a tournament i wouldn't have implemented it simply to avoid the headache that it was undoubtedly going to cause.
And to Daigomi, your last paragraph is something I wrote about earlier. I wish this and the other NASL thread didn't exist and they hadn't released all the details until they did so in a very, very accurate and concise manner. If there were then questions or concerns they could be addressed properly instead of having soooo much misinformation spreading and causing more confusion.
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I will only comment one thing about the whole NASL vs GSL issue:
The NASL needs desperately to stop comparing itself to the GSL, so that people too won't compare them. There are conditions that the NASL just CANNOT meet which are the backbone of the GSL. For instance, the fact that the GSL is LIVE gives it a whole different context. Not only is it live, the players are physically there, you can watch them play, relate to them and see their emotions and feelings when they win/lose/screw up/focus/whatever, and koreans seem to know and exploit this by doing awesome close ups and team high fives etc. All these things enhance atmosphere and ambience in a way the NASL cannot do, no matter how good the commentary is, it's still replays, and the players are still not there.
The GSL hosts qualifiers to Code A with litterally thousands of players, on the same place, at the same time, in a huge qualifier that is probably harder to succeed on than many EU/US tournaments. Right now, I doubt NASL can host such a qualifier.
In contrast to the NASL, the GSL is, most of all, a SHOW. This is why we watch the GSL... even when we get some of the most horrible games/players known to mankind, because it's one hell of a show, in which everything is extremely tangible and gets a "real" feel, it's not just broadcasted games.
Since NASL cannot do this, because of what I explained and some other factors, they should focus on the competition, not on the "show" aspect of it, since it will always be one step behind the GSL and comparisons will be inevitable, no matter how large the prize money is. They claim to want people to relate to players as one of their objectives, however I feel that this format is clearly not the way to go if that's what they want to achieve, and I believe the best way to do this would be to implement it in a later season, in a different format, once things have settled down and the NASL has a firm ground to stand on.
I want the NASL to succeed, as any huge SC2 tournament means lots of happiness to me, however, I think that because of the way it is made and how it includes players from the whole world, playing online, on replays (definitely the only and best way to do it right now), it will be VERY hard to make it GSL-like, and I believe that doing so would only overshadow the NASL and go against its own growth, it needs to differentiate itself from it, as fast as possible, and people need to stop expecting the NASL to be the western GSL, because it is not, and will not be for at least a very long time.
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On February 25 2011 11:00 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
That said, I'm looking forward to NASL! Like GSL that I won't have to stay up until 2 in the morning for, and a much different variety of players
You know you can achieve the same effect in the GSL by waiting till the next day and watching the VODs..
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What steps will be taken to prevent cheating in the online games?
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On February 25 2011 11:40 applejuice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 11:00 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
That said, I'm looking forward to NASL! Like GSL that I won't have to stay up until 2 in the morning for, and a much different variety of players
You know you can achieve the same effect in the GSL by waiting till the next day and watching the VODs..
I guess he means for free.
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On February 25 2011 12:42 gogogadgetflow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 11:40 applejuice wrote:On February 25 2011 11:00 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
That said, I'm looking forward to NASL! Like GSL that I won't have to stay up until 2 in the morning for, and a much different variety of players
You know you can achieve the same effect in the GSL by waiting till the next day and watching the VODs.. I guess he means for free.
Yeah, kinda meant to say that.
On the entire LIVE versus not LIVE thing (I don't know why I feel compelled to capitalize that): I don't think I can really guess how the atmosphere of the NASL will be. Maybe they will be able to capture the same feel that GSL has, even if it is a recast. Though it might be kinda annoying having to not read Teamliquid to not accidentally spoil yourself who won, but that's minor... and if it works better for them, then fine by me. It's really just the five man cap to teams that bugs me (there was a similar sort of situation in my high school math competitions that bugged me, where only one team from each high school could win trophies, heh)
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On February 25 2011 09:47 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 09:30 kNightLite wrote:
What was the rationale behind setting the player per team cap at 5? I like that there is a cap because it will encourage competition and reduce collision. However Im worried that setting the cap at 5 will hurt SC2 teams if this league becomes as successful as everyone hopes it will be. They decided to have 5 divisions, and they didn't want to players from the same team to face eachother to avoid collusion
I don't question their decision to put a cap on the numbers of players per team. Like I said in my post, I think that's a great idea for reasons already mentioned.
What I do question is why they decided to set the limit at 5, instead of some slightly higher number like 6 or 7 which would make more sense for SC2.
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On February 25 2011 08:49 Phayt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 08:21 paksam wrote:
This is a common notion in all who defend NASL, because they are doing something good for the community should we just look away if the organizers' have an interior motive?(this sounds farfetchd' but if they would just change or address the rules accordingly then my whole argument gets thrown out the window). I feel like everyone is responding with the fact that they think I and people like myself don't want esports to grow ( which is not true at all). I feel like the NASL's intentions should be thoroughly questioned especially when dealing with a lot of money. I don't know about you but I dream that the NASL will exist but I do not wish it to be as corrupt as it seems (only due to their rules/explanations [or lack there of]). Please try and look at it in that POV and maybe you will see a few of their qualification rules seem unreasonable (without explanation from NASL). What do you think their intentions are? They want to put on a good show and make money. It's that simple. I don't really understand where people like you think they see all this corruption. In the player selections? It's an invitational league right now, what do you want from them? Do you go into TSL topics lambasting them for inviting all the Liquid players not named TLO? Are you critical of the ROOT gaming invitationals for not putting on open qualifiers? At the end of the day, though the scope is bigger here, this is still a bunch of guys trying to put together the best tournament they can. Sure some of the organizers are involved with some top teams, but to assume there will be any manner of "corruption" due to this is just silly. Now not everyone may like all of their rules, and maybe not everyone is happy that they don't have every last tiny detail of information available to them, but might I remind you all that this was only officially announced on MONDAY? It's gonna take some time for every single thing to be clear, and at the end of the day they will make some decisions that you might not have. That's totally okay. There's a pretty good chance they're putting more thought to this than you have anyways. I think a lot of people need to stop getting so worked up and take a wait and see approach. Asking questions and making suggestions is all quite fine, but getting all up in arms and telling these guys they're doing everything wrong is not.
I see all this corruption because this whole project revolves around money and entertainment (as you said). I do realize all they are intending to do is to have a great show and make money...but how can you justify an invite-only rule when arguably the biggest tournament in the world (GSL) has a better format. I just feel that there are biases in the rules that need to be discussed before the NASL starts. My point I feel leads to the conclusion that there is favoring (intentional or not) of some players over others. How can a league like this truthfully exist? Basically If GSL is the golden standard, shouldn't new leagues try and follow their successful format?
Yes, I also do realize that I need to give them time to figure this stuff out and I have stressed that I am willing to wait for information just as long I know it is coming. I'm trying to look at this objectively and am trying to show that there are possibly faults in the system they have presented and they should address them. I think that posts like yours are making excuses for unreasonable rules.
I want you to understand why I am getting worked up at all, I have tried to simply ask questions about the format and then I get bashed about why I am picking on them. Then I feel obligated to respond to all of you because you are directly responding to my comments. I just want you to understand the fustration of getting your questions shot down by opinions;which then makes me feel like I must rebutt with my own opinion.
I want the NASL to do well but it is my opinion that if these rules are not dealt with before the start of the league then it will fail. I want you to see it from my point of view, I love this community and the discussion/banter that comes from it. All I want is the same thing, a rise in the western esports scene (specifically sc2).
For those who want to know my questions they are..
I am concerned that the invite-only policy as well as the team policy restricts too many players from qualifying. I would like to know the reasoning behind these rules and the official viewpoint of the NASL when it comes to how these rules in your opinion will postively or negatively affect NASL's goal to have the top 50 players in the world play in this tournament.
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Question:
I don't suppose group picking ceremonies are in the realm of possibilities farther down the line? They are perhaps the greatest persona generating spectacle possible. I always enjoy it when they do it in the Korean StarLeagues for their crazy ceremonies (Orange Caramel Leta?) and trash talk.
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On February 25 2011 13:49 seiferoth10 wrote:
Question:
I don't suppose group picking ceremonies are in the realm of possibilities farther down the line? They are perhaps the greatest persona generating spectacle possible. I always enjoy it when they do it in the Korean StarLeagues for their crazy ceremonies (Orange Caramel Leta?) and trash talk.
The problem with something like that is figuring out how to get that same kind of feeling, but without doing it in person. I think they've made it somewhat clear that they want to keep the early rounds of the season online (so that people aren't prohibited by travel distance, until the finals).
I mentioned this earlier in this thread (and I don't know how technically possible it would be), but I think players having webcams would at least help in making this feel a bit more like a LAN. In the situation of a group picking ceremony, the viewers would be able to see the player reactions and such.
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On February 25 2011 14:39 MrWinkles wrote:
Will VODs be free?
No, not according to the G4 interview.
It'll be the same structure as GSL in terms of streams & VODs.
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EPT
