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Before you post, read the title of this thread slowly and out loud. |
On February 25 2011 06:53 tsuxiit wrote:
...you don't trust them to pick the 50 best players to compete in North America? What has indicated that they won't have the best competitor pool possible?
The fact that they keep talking about picking people who are "relatable" and the fact that the application includes things like "are you rivals with anyone?", for starters. The fact that some of the organizers are affiliated with the teams from which they're selecting players. (In fact, some of the organizers *are* the potential players.) [edit: also the fact that a poll has any relevance whatsoever] More importantly, though, any invitational system is going to constantly have allegations of corruption whether it exists or not - it's just the nature of the beast.
I can't speak for everyone asking this question (and there are a lot), but I for one am ok with it being invitational to get started - an elaborate set of qualification tournaments would be very hard to organize and run in time for the first season. In the long term, though, it seems obvious to me that this needs to switch to some sort of objective qualification system. (The open tournament, a special qualification tournament, or allowing TL Opens, craft cups, etc. to hand out "NASL qualification points" as part of the prizes... anything.)
I don't think there is a single serious sport that organizes major tournaments by having a bunch of "experts" sit in a room and just pick whoever they think will be good (or good for ratings). There's always some sort of qualification process.
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As much as I want to copy/paste what I typed while banned, I feel this has turned out very positive, the way I wanted it to be.
Will the qualifier be before the team invites?
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On February 25 2011 06:59 paksam wrote:
I dont trust them because it is very biased (lets say for example specifically iNcontrol - sorry dude for picking on you so much today) . We all know that iNcontrol is the face of the league and will probably play in the league but how can they objectively pick 50 people when they're own organizers want a chance to win the prize...Without any thorough explanation on how the 50 are picked(without biases), how can you honestly say you trust them to pick the top players in the world (yes i say world because they ahve not limited qualifications to where you live, but what server you are able to play on.)
I again you hope you change your opinion on the matter and try and look at this objectively.
Who can honestly agree on who the top 50 players are in the world? I would think you could get as many as 75 or 100 players mentioned as being top 50 in the world. Hell everyone in the GSL Code S is the top T/P/Z at the time they are playing according to Tastetosis.
They will get as many of the best players that they can into their league because they want as many people as possible to watch and/or buy the stream. They need to get good viewership numbers to justify their sponsors and to attract new sponsors.
It doesn't do them any good to pick 40 shitty players so EG and Fnatic can roflstomp everyone else.
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On February 25 2011 07:01 aristarchus wrote:
I don't think there is a single serious sport that organizes major tournaments by having a bunch of "experts" sit in a room and just pick whoever they think will be good (or good for ratings). There's always some sort of qualification process.
This is how MMA works at least. Not sure about boxing but pretty sure it's the same there.
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This might already of been asked before, but I dread looking through all 58 pages to find a simple question. But anyways, How will NASL choose what teams will compete in the tournament? And once they are approved, are they in indefinitely? Or could they lose their spot to another team down the road?
IE : Lets say team X gets in and their 5 players are somewhat... underwhelming. Since they have been accepted in however, Team Y became a new (franchise? Club?) and is making big results across many other tournaments. Will they be able to knock out team X for a slot in the NASL?
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On February 25 2011 06:41 tsuxiit wrote:
I'm so tired of people freaking out about iNcontroL being the face of this organization, and I'm so tired of people ACTUALLY considering that this tournament could be bad for the growth of eSports. It's literally as if these people, Russell and iNcontroL and whoever else is behind it, are holding out fucking "eSports Growth and Success in North America" on a silver goddamn platter in front of the entire Starcraft community and everyone is saying "well, hmm, do we REALLY want Starcraft to succeed and grow? I forgot."
Look at what the NASL has given us! $400,000 tournament. Sensitivity to the community. World class players. Competent, responsible leadership. Gigantic sponsors and the possibility for mainstream exposure. It's literally EVERYTHING I thought Team Liquid ever wanted. We're never going to get anything better.
Don't get ahead of yourself... it hasn't actually DONE anything yet. We don't know the sponsors, we don't know the players, or if it'll be mainstream or not. Unless you're being completely sarcastic here which doesn't belong either.
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On February 25 2011 07:04 Patriot.dlk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:01 aristarchus wrote:
I don't think there is a single serious sport that organizes major tournaments by having a bunch of "experts" sit in a room and just pick whoever they think will be good (or good for ratings). There's always some sort of qualification process. This is how MMA works at least. Not sure about boxing but pretty sure it's the same there.
yes but MMA I feel is extremely more competetive (in the sense that you are physically fighting someone instead of mentally). This also applies to boxing, please use another comparison where physical ability is not an issue.
edit: I also feel that I should point out that I think there are probably more unknown sc2 players (new game) compared to mma fighters and thus I feel like your argument is due wrong in comparison.
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Calgary25979 Posts
On February 25 2011 07:11 paksam wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:04 Patriot.dlk wrote:On February 25 2011 07:01 aristarchus wrote:
I don't think there is a single serious sport that organizes major tournaments by having a bunch of "experts" sit in a room and just pick whoever they think will be good (or good for ratings). There's always some sort of qualification process. This is how MMA works at least. Not sure about boxing but pretty sure it's the same there. yes but MMA I feel is extremely more competetive (in the sense that you are physically fighting someone instead of mentally). This also applies to boxing, please use another comparison where physical ability is not an issue.
So let me get this straight, you want a serious, 1v1 sport, where physical ability is not an issue. Does one exist?
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On February 25 2011 07:01 aristarchus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 06:53 tsuxiit wrote:
...you don't trust them to pick the 50 best players to compete in North America? What has indicated that they won't have the best competitor pool possible? The fact that they keep talking about picking people who are "relatable" and the fact that the application includes things like "are you rivals with anyone?", for starters. The fact that some of the organizers are affiliated with the teams from which they're selecting players. (In fact, some of the organizers *are* the potential players.) [edit: also the fact that a poll has any relevance whatsoever] More importantly, though, any invitational system is going to constantly have allegations of corruption whether it exists or not - it's just the nature of the beast.
Uhh this is quite worrying. How far is this whole 'storylines' bullshit going to affect the quality of players in the tournament?
On February 25 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:
So let me get this straight, you want a serious, 1v1 sport, where physical ability is not an issue. Does one exist?
Chess?
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On February 25 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:11 paksam wrote:On February 25 2011 07:04 Patriot.dlk wrote:On February 25 2011 07:01 aristarchus wrote:
I don't think there is a single serious sport that organizes major tournaments by having a bunch of "experts" sit in a room and just pick whoever they think will be good (or good for ratings). There's always some sort of qualification process. This is how MMA works at least. Not sure about boxing but pretty sure it's the same there. yes but MMA I feel is extremely more competetive (in the sense that you are physically fighting someone instead of mentally). This also applies to boxing, please use another comparison where physical ability is not an issue. So let me get this straight, you want a serious, 1v1 sport, where physical ability is not an issue. Does one exist?
no i want him to jsut not compare it to mma in the context of his argument, but maybe compare it to something like chess
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On February 25 2011 06:37 Antoine wrote:
Question:
Will the members of NASL staff affiliated with a team recuse themself from the selection of the 50 invites? In the NCAA men's basketball selections, there is 1 representative from every conference on the selection committee, but it's probably not feasible for NASL to have a representative from every team on the "selection committee" - so is there another fair way to handle this?
There are ten members on the selection committee and 31 conferences that participate in the NCAA tournament.
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You know I wouldn't mind if they made the tournament style the exact mirror of gsl 1-3. It gave a lot of drama to who did or didn't make the qualifiers. Then the tournament 64 man bracket should be random drawn. This tournament should definitely be open. Considering you guys are already getting criticized about professionalism you don't want to be also criticized favoritism which will inevitably be the case if you guys self pick the invitees. What's your guys plan to stray away from possible accusations when invites come
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United States2095 Posts
On February 25 2011 05:56 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 05:35 Chill wrote:On February 25 2011 05:27 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Question:
Are you actually listening to feedback because I can give you a laundry list of things to improve on now or before the 2nd season if you want this to actually succeed but it seems like most of the NASL people are too busy being defensive to listen to actual constructive criticism. Post the list please. 1) Stop talking until you put Xeris, Incontrol, and Russel in the same room.These three guys keep contradicting each other so much it is stupid. The amount of contrary information out there from these sources including between the State of the Game podcast (<3 JP) and the official thread is alarming. This alone takes away a lot of confidence from many people in the validity of your league. 2) Change this:The quality of GSL's high quality paid stream is 650 kb/sec. Our free stream is going to be at 800 kb/sec, our paid stream will be 3 megabit / sec. We're offering much better stream quality than any other tournament can give you!Having the paid stream be only a 3 megabit stream means the vast majority of EU viewers wont be able to watch it seeing as it is also on JTV. If you set your stream bitrate too high all you are doing is limiting the number of viewers who can watch you. The EU market still has a hard time watching on JTV especially on the higher quality higher bitrate streams. Even though JTV provides quality scaling having the 3mbit as your base is not a good idea if you're going to go that high provide a second high quality stream option as well. This will also allow for a backup stream in case the primary one has any issues. 3) Stop responding sarcastically to money questionsReplies like "We're sponsored by pennies we picked up in the various ponds and fountains around the world. The money is there and ready to be given out to some amazing players!" come off as amazingly unprofessional. Instead try saying that the sponsors for this amazing league are still working with us and do not wish to be named at the current time. None the less I'm sure you will be excited once we are able to name them as they are some big companies in their industry. This simple change in attitude gives a lot of confidence to your readers because it is much more professional. GSL didn't name their sponsors straight off the bat either but they also did not respond sarcastically to every question about it. In short be professional responding sarcastically again only turns people off and brings into question the validity of your league. 4) Be open with your league formatThere is a lot of criticism about your league format and you've yet to say that you're even willing to change it for the next season. Instead of defending your format to the death why not say that you're willing to look into improving the format as much as possible in season 2 and in the time in between. Once again just saying you are willing to do it gives much more confidence than the three of you lined up on the streets weapons drawn and saying NO WE LOVE OUR FORMAT! One major factor is find a way to include more open slots as more open qualification means less of a big deal about needing to be on a team and the team limits. As if you're good enough you can make it through on the open slots when there's more than just one then not having a team isn't as big of a deal. Yes they'd prefer to be invited in almost every instance but having every player who can't make it in through an invite competing over one open slot is kind of silly In conclusion I don't want to see your tournament fail as generally when a major tournament fails it turns off potential sponsors for everyone. So please look into upping your level of professionalism when you speak to the community. Currently your attitude towards PR seems to include way too much sarcasm and saying that we thought it was a good idea.
Ok see'ing that no one has answered you yet I'll do my best to despite not being that involved I do have some idea of this from things read and what not! Anyway on to answer these questions / points of concern.
1. Its a good point we have a few things that are out there that are a bit different. However the main important things, the dates, what the pole is used for, the prizes, the format I believe Russell explained it full on State of the Game. However it was said on SoTG that the top 16 will be comprised of the top 10 from the divisions, 5 from playoffs and 1 from the Open Tournament, that was then later countered by just 15 from the divisions. I don't know about this and hopefully it will be addressed, but keep in mind that the site and the rules will clear up as this gets closer. However yes, contrary information is a pain, but we can all hear things we want to hear and take what someone says out of context. Either way hopefully we can get them all to work together a bit more closely.
2. They said also they are spending a lot a LOT of money on the technical side of the equation. I'm sure they woudln't do such high kb/sec if they can't handle it. If you can't handle that high, you can always watch the free stream which will be amazingly high still anyway. No point in complaining about good stuff there! (If this completely falls apart due to technical issues then yea your point is super valid, but until then heres hoping!)
3. Sarcasm is of course not that professional. This is common sence and I agree that on important threads there shouldn't be any sarcasm. Especially when stating the rules and so forth. However come on how can you hate on Xeris he is amazing. On the actual site (NOT TL.NET) they aren't sarcastic at all and I'm hoping the news letter won't be either. Hopefully with the sarcasm here they will just build hype. Nothing wrong with being a little sarcastic here imo!
4. Do you expect them to say "no we hate the format we've already fixed with the sponsors and everyone involved" ? No if they have a format set in stone at least for the first season (I'm not sure if it is, I'm just saying) then they can and should stick by it. I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the 5 limit per team, but honestly in a Nazgul quote earlier he talked about how SC2 ISNT like the olympics and SC2 Teams aren't like countries that should be limited like the olympics. HOWEVER this is EXACTLY how it is. Teams practice together, teams can get the same style and generally players on the same team (say 2 terrans) will practice alot together and gain alot of knowledge from each other. In the Olympics say they want the BEST runners in the whole world, why don't they just say SCREW YOU EVERY COUNTRY NOW IN AFRICA and simply take the best runners from there? Its because they want the backstory, the diversity, the hope for a small player from a small country (yes I mixed metaphors) ((is that a metaphor? screw english class) to do well in the league. If every player from say Team X (Aka KOREA) was in here then it would be the best 50 players from korea, They don't want that, and neither do we honestly we have the GSL for that. They want to do this with a set business mind already placed. Everyone who keeps saying "Hey your messing with the team structure!!!!" is looking at this backwards already. GSL did the same team, they forced teams to pick there "BEST" to go to Korea. No teams were able to send their entire roster over to Korea how is this any different? I know I got off point 4, but there you have my explanation. I think I'll blog about this later as a counter to Nony's long post on the counter of what I just brought up.
I'll say as a former player of root I would have been in a team with more then 5 "star" players so I can feel your pain team liquid, but seriously send the players not in NASL to GSL and relax. Enjoy life and hopefully you took the time to read this post, because its what I really believe in. However if they want more players from more teams meh its their choice its their tournament. Find sponsors and organize your own 400,000$ league the next time you want to complain.
Peace.
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On February 25 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:11 paksam wrote:On February 25 2011 07:04 Patriot.dlk wrote:On February 25 2011 07:01 aristarchus wrote:
I don't think there is a single serious sport that organizes major tournaments by having a bunch of "experts" sit in a room and just pick whoever they think will be good (or good for ratings). There's always some sort of qualification process. This is how MMA works at least. Not sure about boxing but pretty sure it's the same there. yes but MMA I feel is extremely more competetive (in the sense that you are physically fighting someone instead of mentally). This also applies to boxing, please use another comparison where physical ability is not an issue. So let me get this straight, you want a serious, 1v1 sport, where physical ability is not an issue. Does one exist?
I agree with Patriot. There's nothing wrong with picking players based on whoever people want to see. We all know that SC2 has a fantastic amount of characters playing the game. People will cheer for/cheer against; that's what makes it exciting.
To suceed outside of this community you have to explain that to everyone else.
The best players will win in the end anyway.
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On February 25 2011 07:10 Energizer wrote:
This might already of been asked before, but I dread looking through all 58 pages to find a simple question. But anyways, How will NASL choose what teams will compete in the tournament? And once they are approved, are they in indefinitely? Or could they lose their spot to another team down the road?
IE : Lets say team X gets in and their 5 players are somewhat... underwhelming. Since they have been accepted in however, Team Y became a new (franchise? Club?) and is making big results across many other tournaments. Will they be able to knock out team X for a slot in the NASL?
I think and hope that the spots will be given to players, not teams. It would make a lot more sense to try to get top 50 players that can can play in the league, instead of getting top 10 teams and letting them choose 5 players each.
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I think Daniel Negreanu is one of the "secret investors." And because he is affiliated with PokerStars I am thinking that if the first 3 seasons of NASL go well and show promise, I think PokerStars might sponsor the seasons following.
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On February 25 2011 07:17 Sheth wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 25 2011 05:56 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 05:35 Chill wrote:On February 25 2011 05:27 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Question:
Are you actually listening to feedback because I can give you a laundry list of things to improve on now or before the 2nd season if you want this to actually succeed but it seems like most of the NASL people are too busy being defensive to listen to actual constructive criticism. Post the list please. 1) Stop talking until you put Xeris, Incontrol, and Russel in the same room.These three guys keep contradicting each other so much it is stupid. The amount of contrary information out there from these sources including between the State of the Game podcast (<3 JP) and the official thread is alarming. This alone takes away a lot of confidence from many people in the validity of your league. 2) Change this:The quality of GSL's high quality paid stream is 650 kb/sec. Our free stream is going to be at 800 kb/sec, our paid stream will be 3 megabit / sec. We're offering much better stream quality than any other tournament can give you!Having the paid stream be only a 3 megabit stream means the vast majority of EU viewers wont be able to watch it seeing as it is also on JTV. If you set your stream bitrate too high all you are doing is limiting the number of viewers who can watch you. The EU market still has a hard time watching on JTV especially on the higher quality higher bitrate streams. Even though JTV provides quality scaling having the 3mbit as your base is not a good idea if you're going to go that high provide a second high quality stream option as well. This will also allow for a backup stream in case the primary one has any issues. 3) Stop responding sarcastically to money questionsReplies like "We're sponsored by pennies we picked up in the various ponds and fountains around the world. The money is there and ready to be given out to some amazing players!" come off as amazingly unprofessional. Instead try saying that the sponsors for this amazing league are still working with us and do not wish to be named at the current time. None the less I'm sure you will be excited once we are able to name them as they are some big companies in their industry. This simple change in attitude gives a lot of confidence to your readers because it is much more professional. GSL didn't name their sponsors straight off the bat either but they also did not respond sarcastically to every question about it. In short be professional responding sarcastically again only turns people off and brings into question the validity of your league. 4) Be open with your league formatThere is a lot of criticism about your league format and you've yet to say that you're even willing to change it for the next season. Instead of defending your format to the death why not say that you're willing to look into improving the format as much as possible in season 2 and in the time in between. Once again just saying you are willing to do it gives much more confidence than the three of you lined up on the streets weapons drawn and saying NO WE LOVE OUR FORMAT! One major factor is find a way to include more open slots as more open qualification means less of a big deal about needing to be on a team and the team limits. As if you're good enough you can make it through on the open slots when there's more than just one then not having a team isn't as big of a deal. Yes they'd prefer to be invited in almost every instance but having every player who can't make it in through an invite competing over one open slot is kind of silly In conclusion I don't want to see your tournament fail as generally when a major tournament fails it turns off potential sponsors for everyone. So please look into upping your level of professionalism when you speak to the community. Currently your attitude towards PR seems to include way too much sarcasm and saying that we thought it was a good idea. Ok see'ing that no one has answered you yet I'll do my best to despite not being that involved I do have some idea of this from things read and what not! Anyway on to answer these questions / points of concern. 1. Its a good point we have a few things that are out there that are a bit different. However the main important things, the dates, what the pole is used for, the prizes, the format I believe Russell explained it full on State of the Game. However it was said on SoTG that the top 16 will be comprised of the top 10 from the divisions, 5 from playoffs and 1 from the Open Tournament, that was then later countered by just 15 from the divisions. I don't know about this and hopefully it will be addressed, but keep in mind that the site and the rules will clear up as this gets closer. However yes, contrary information is a pain, but we can all hear things we want to hear and take what someone says out of context. Either way hopefully we can get them all to work together a bit more closely. 2. They said also they are spending a lot a LOT of money on the technical side of the equation. I'm sure they woudln't do such high kb/sec if they can't handle it. If you can't handle that high, you can always watch the free stream which will be amazingly high still anyway. No point in complaining about good stuff there! (If this completely falls apart due to technical issues then yea your point is super valid, but until then heres hoping!) 3. Sarcasm is of course not that professional. This is common sence and I agree that on important threads there shouldn't be any sarcasm. Especially when stating the rules and so forth. However come on how can you hate on Xeris he is amazing. On the actual site (NOT TL.NET) they aren't sarcastic at all and I'm hoping the news letter won't be either. Hopefully with the sarcasm here they will just build hype. Nothing wrong with being a little sarcastic here imo! 4. Do you expect them to say "no we hate the format we've already fixed with the sponsors and everyone involved" ? No if they have a format set in stone at least for the first season (I'm not sure if it is, I'm just saying) then they can and should stick by it. I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the 5 limit per team, but honestly in a Nazgul quote earlier he talked about how SC2 ISNT like the olympics and SC2 Teams aren't like countries that should be limited like the olympics. HOWEVER this is EXACTLY how it is. Teams practice together, teams can get the same style and generally players on the same team (say 2 terrans) will practice alot together and gain alot of knowledge from each other. In the Olympics say they want the BEST runners in the whole world, why don't they just say SCREW YOU EVERY COUNTRY NOW IN AFRICA and simply take the best runners from there? Its because they want the backstory, the diversity, the hope for a small player from a small country (yes I mixed metaphors) ((is that a metaphor? screw english class) to do well in the league. If every player from say Team X (Aka KOREA) was in here then it would be the best 50 players from korea, They don't want that, and neither do we honestly we have the GSL for that. They want to do this with a set business mind already placed. Everyone who keeps saying "Hey your messing with the team structure!!!!" is looking at this backwards already. GSL did the same team, they forced teams to pick there "BEST" to go to Korea. No teams were able to send their entire roster over to Korea how is this any different? I know I got off point 4, but there you have my explanation. I think I'll blog about this later as a counter to Nony's long post on the counter of what I just brought up. I'll say as a former player of root I would have been in a team with more then 5 "star" players so I can feel your pain team liquid, but seriously send the players not in NASL to GSL and relax. Enjoy life and hopefully you took the time to read this post, because its what I really believe in. However if they want more players from more teams meh its their choice its their tournament. Find sponsors and organize your own 400,000$ league the next time you want to complain. Peace.
Sheth I <3 you but that reply did not actually add a whole lot. The inconsistency is more then the format, for example Xeris says White Ra can join because Duckload is a team, however Russell said on SoTG that he does not. Hell Xeris was even saying that they would not be pre recording NASL earlier on, which is proven to be false.
With the tech side, he is not concerned for it on the NASL side, but the client side. Justin has some big problems with EU, and most countries do not have internet that is 3 meg/sec upload so they would not be able to watch anything but the LQ one, which defeats the purpose of them selling HQ stream's. I know I have 20 meg/up and can't get Justin to work in over 480p, so for me there is no reason to buy the premium package.
No one is hating on Xeris, but being rude or sarcastic to people you want to pay $ to you has no place in business. EVER.
The 5 player rule may only effect TL and EG right now but will effectively stop a lot of teams from getting more then 5 good players. Not every team has the backing of a multi-national forex trading company, and can afford to send their team to two different places.
Also saying "make your own 400k tournament" is just silly.
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I don't see how you can defend an organization that hasn't done anything quite yet sheth, especially If you don't work for it. There's quite a few legitimate concerns about the league(prominently liquid tylers), and honestly for me if they aren't addressed before the start up I don't see myself enjoying the nasl. Of course no matter what I'm going to watch it but I'd prefer it to be at a better standard and address the concerns of the community the way gom has with us
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Calgary25979 Posts
I think responding to legitmate criticism with "send your players to another tournament and enjoy life" is ridiculous.
Further, you don't have to "find sponsors and organize your own $400,000 league" or accept "meh it's their choice its their tournament" if you have legitimate criticism. For example, if you criticize the design of team liquid, I'm not going to ban you and say "meh go develop your own community".
If everything is in stone then NASL staff can say they are past changes and don't value suggestions or criticism, then we can move on. But I haven't gotten that impression. I find it extremely dismissive to tell everyone to accept anything NASL lays in front of them.
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EPT
