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Before you post, read the title of this thread slowly and out loud. |
I really don't understand how the level of physicality in the sport/game is relevant. MMA isn't exactly the most mainstream of sports, and boxing has been one of the most corrupt sports that exists for basically all of recent history. (I don't know much about either, but a quick google search also found extremely detailed rules for the series of tournaments and qualifiers used to pick the US olympic boxing team.) Stop a second and just try to think of individual sports/competitions. Chess is a good example. So is tennis. Also golf. There are amature/minor league tournaments for these, and if you do well you qualify for bigger things.
A sport running on a lot of random one-off tournaments and so forth will of course have lots of invitationals - it's an easy way to get some very good people together for entertaining matches. But when you want to move from fun entertainment to a serious sport part of that transition is adopting fair and objective rules.
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On February 25 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:11 paksam wrote:On February 25 2011 07:04 Patriot.dlk wrote:On February 25 2011 07:01 aristarchus wrote:
I don't think there is a single serious sport that organizes major tournaments by having a bunch of "experts" sit in a room and just pick whoever they think will be good (or good for ratings). There's always some sort of qualification process. This is how MMA works at least. Not sure about boxing but pretty sure it's the same there. yes but MMA I feel is extremely more competetive (in the sense that you are physically fighting someone instead of mentally). This also applies to boxing, please use another comparison where physical ability is not an issue. So let me get this straight, you want a serious, 1v1 sport, where physical ability is not an issue. Does one exist? Darts and snooker are pretty big deals in the UK.
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On February 25 2011 07:17 Sheth wrote:
4. Do you expect them to say "no we hate the format we've already fixed with the sponsors and everyone involved" ? No if they have a format set in stone at least for the first season (I'm not sure if it is, I'm just saying) then they can and should stick by it. I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the 5 limit per team, but honestly in a Nazgul quote earlier he talked about how SC2 ISNT like the olympics and SC2 Teams aren't like countries that should be limited like the olympics. HOWEVER this is EXACTLY how it is. Teams practice together, teams can get the same style and generally players on the same team (say 2 terrans) will practice alot together and gain alot of knowledge from each other. In the Olympics say they want the BEST runners in the whole world, why don't they just say SCREW YOU EVERY COUNTRY NOW IN AFRICA and simply take the best runners from there? Its because they want the backstory, the diversity, the hope for a small player from a small country (yes I mixed metaphors) ((is that a metaphor? screw english class) to do well in the league. If every player from say Team X (Aka KOREA) was in here then it would be the best 50 players from korea, They don't want that, and neither do we honestly we have the GSL for that. They want to do this with a set business mind already placed. Everyone who keeps saying "Hey your messing with the team structure!!!!" is looking at this backwards already. GSL did the same team, they forced teams to pick there "BEST" to go to Korea. No teams were able to send their entire roster over to Korea how is this any different? I know I got off point 4, but there you have my explanation. I think I'll blog about this later as a counter to Nony's long post on the counter of what I just brought up.
I'll say as a former player of root I would have been in a team with more then 5 "star" players so I can feel your pain team liquid, but seriously send the players not in NASL to GSL and relax. Enjoy life and hopefully you took the time to read this post, because its what I really believe in. However if they want more players from more teams meh its their choice its their tournament. Find sponsors and organize your own 400,000$ league the next time you want to complain.
Peace.
Sheth, I agree with all your points accept for the last. If they are trying to get the top 50 from the world they would have to include a lot of korean players. If they are trying to get top 50 in NA/EU, then have the restriction on where you reside. I realize it seems absurd for them to even limit the amount of non-na invites but I think the NASL is trying to do too much too fast. Careful planning and maybe even delaying the start of NASL would I believe resolve these issues. I think my point shows that having an invite-only league for a game that is so new is unreasonable.(yes I know 1 out of 1024 has a chance to get into the top 16 tourney, but 1/16 = 6.25% ) Maybe I am being overcritical on this league but I am only trying to compare it with the GSL in S1.
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Diamond is right selling a HQ stream that people cannot watch is not a good thing because then they feel "why am I buying the HQ if I have to watch the free stream."
You also kind of missed my point on #4 Sheth. I'm not asking them to say they hate their own format but when you're thinking about running a world tournament and people criticize the format you have to be at least open to considering change. This is not admitting that you're weak or wrong or anything it's being receptive to the community. I also only brought up the 5 player rule in context on how you could make a lot of the flak from that go away by improving other things. I was not trying to criticize the 5 player rule at all in this instance so responding to that and not my point is kind of not helpful.
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Calgary25963 Posts
On February 25 2011 07:26 aristarchus wrote:
I really don't understand how the level of physicality in the sport/game is relevant. MMA isn't exactly the most mainstream of sports, and boxing has been one of the most corrupt sports that exists for basically all of recent history. (I don't know much about either, but a quick google search also found extremely detailed rules for the series of tournaments and qualifiers used to pick the US olympic boxing team.) Stop a second and just try to think of individual sports/competitions. Chess is a good example. So is tennis. Also golf. There are amature/minor league tournaments for these, and if you do well you qualify for bigger things.
A sport running on a lot of random one-off tournaments and so forth will of course have lots of invitationals - it's an easy way to get some very good people together for entertaining matches. But when you want to move from fun entertainment to a serious sport part of that transition is adopting fair and objective rules.
Tennis is a good example because it is a 1v1 sport with a single elimination bracket. Golf is not because everyone simultaneously competes against each other. Chess also isn't a good example because of the various round robin formats that are used.
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3) Stop responding sarcastically to money questions
Replies like "We're sponsored by pennies we picked up in the various ponds and fountains around the world. The money is there and ready to be given out to some amazing players!" come off as amazingly unprofessional.
Instead try saying that the sponsors for this amazing league are still working with us and do not wish to be named at the current time. None the less I'm sure you will be excited once we are able to name them as they are some big companies in their industry. This simple change in attitude gives a lot of confidence to your readers because it is much more professional.
GSL didn't name their sponsors straight off the bat either but they also did not respond sarcastically to every question about it. In short be professional responding sarcastically again only turns people off and brings into question the validity of your league.
they said exactly that about their sponsors. they just gave a "fun" answer first on state of the game which is more casual and entertainment focused thing. complaining about that seems very random and is mostly a problem on the listeners side.
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Invitational participation robs this of legitimacy and prestige I think.
If the organizers want to put an emphasis on teams, then it would make sense for the teams to run through a qualification process at the end of which each qualified team could select those players that would get to play for that team in that season.
Much like is the case in other sports.
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Question: Is the website a temporary solution until we see the results of a few seasons? I have a few friends who do high level web design for a living and are also gamers. They may be willing to do the site at a reduced rate considering it's for esports.
Would you be interested in speaking to such individuals about making a fully functional professional website?
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On February 25 2011 07:26 aristarchus wrote:
I really don't understand how the level of physicality in the sport/game is relevant. MMA isn't exactly the most mainstream of sports, and boxing has been one of the most corrupt sports that exists for basically all of recent history. (I don't know much about either, but a quick google search also found extremely detailed rules for the series of tournaments and qualifiers used to pick the US olympic boxing team.) Stop a second and just try to think of individual sports/competitions. Chess is a good example. So is tennis. Also golf. There are amature/minor league tournaments for these, and if you do well you qualify for bigger things.
A sport running on a lot of random one-off tournaments and so forth will of course have lots of invitationals - it's an easy way to get some very good people together for entertaining matches. But when you want to move from fun entertainment to a serious sport part of that transition is adopting fair and objective rules.
edit: I agree I took it out of context sorry.
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On February 25 2011 07:28 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:26 aristarchus wrote:
I really don't understand how the level of physicality in the sport/game is relevant. MMA isn't exactly the most mainstream of sports, and boxing has been one of the most corrupt sports that exists for basically all of recent history. (I don't know much about either, but a quick google search also found extremely detailed rules for the series of tournaments and qualifiers used to pick the US olympic boxing team.) Stop a second and just try to think of individual sports/competitions. Chess is a good example. So is tennis. Also golf. There are amature/minor league tournaments for these, and if you do well you qualify for bigger things.
A sport running on a lot of random one-off tournaments and so forth will of course have lots of invitationals - it's an easy way to get some very good people together for entertaining matches. But when you want to move from fun entertainment to a serious sport part of that transition is adopting fair and objective rules. Tennis is a good example because it is a 1v1 sport with a single elimination bracket. Golf is not because everyone simultaneously competes against each other. Chess also isn't a good example because of the various round robin formats that are used.
Why does the exact format change anything? Their league is proposing using a round robin format. Does that make chess more relevant? My point is just that there aren't three people somewhere going "Do you think Venus Williams is good enough? What about the fact that her sister is already competing? Will that be good for drama or bad?" There are specific rules about who gets to play. I think that makes everyone take the outcome of tennis tournaments a lot more seriously. Do you really think that if any of those three things switched to just having big-prize invitational tournaments with no clear selection criteria there wouldn't be massive outrage on the part of the fans?
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On February 25 2011 07:17 Sheth wrote:
1. Its a good point we have a few things that are out there that are a bit different. However the main important things, the dates, what the pole is used for, the prizes, the format I believe Russell explained it full on State of the Game. However it was said on SoTG that the top 16 will be comprised of the top 10 from the divisions, 5 from playoffs and 1 from the Open Tournament, that was then later countered by just 15 from the divisions. I don't know about this and hopefully it will be addressed, but keep in mind that the site and the rules will clear up as this gets closer. However yes, contrary information is a pain, but we can all hear things we want to hear and take what someone says out of context. Either way hopefully we can get them all to work together a bit more closely.
It seems quite clear to me, the Top 15 from divisons will go through but only 10 will go through automatically (So top 2 from each division). The other 5 spots will be competed for through play-off spots (so ranks 3-5 in each division for example will compete for a spot). The contradiction is that its not technically the top 15 from the divisions, but i can see how the top 10 and the top 15 are both valid from their point of view.
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On February 25 2011 07:33 paksam wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:26 aristarchus wrote:
I really don't understand how the level of physicality in the sport/game is relevant. MMA isn't exactly the most mainstream of sports, and boxing has been one of the most corrupt sports that exists for basically all of recent history. (I don't know much about either, but a quick google search also found extremely detailed rules for the series of tournaments and qualifiers used to pick the US olympic boxing team.) Stop a second and just try to think of individual sports/competitions. Chess is a good example. So is tennis. Also golf. There are amature/minor league tournaments for these, and if you do well you qualify for bigger things.
A sport running on a lot of random one-off tournaments and so forth will of course have lots of invitationals - it's an easy way to get some very good people together for entertaining matches. But when you want to move from fun entertainment to a serious sport part of that transition is adopting fair and objective rules. Which side are you arguing for here? you state that boxing is very corrupt? should we just accept the fact that for sc2 to be as big as boxing it needs to become corrupt? I just dont like the comparison of physical sports vs mental sports when I feel they are essentially two different topics.
I'm arguing for objective qualifications rather than invitationals, but I still argue against bad arguments when I see them, even if they are for my side. I think the distinction between physical and non-physical competitions is irrelevant. I think what is relevant is that sports governed by expert judgments about who gets to compete are constantly plagued by corruption/bias allegations, whereas sports with clear and objective rules are not.
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United States2095 Posts
On February 25 2011 07:25 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:17 Sheth wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 25 2011 05:56 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 05:35 Chill wrote:On February 25 2011 05:27 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Question:
Are you actually listening to feedback because I can give you a laundry list of things to improve on now or before the 2nd season if you want this to actually succeed but it seems like most of the NASL people are too busy being defensive to listen to actual constructive criticism. Post the list please. 1) Stop talking until you put Xeris, Incontrol, and Russel in the same room.These three guys keep contradicting each other so much it is stupid. The amount of contrary information out there from these sources including between the State of the Game podcast (<3 JP) and the official thread is alarming. This alone takes away a lot of confidence from many people in the validity of your league. 2) Change this:The quality of GSL's high quality paid stream is 650 kb/sec. Our free stream is going to be at 800 kb/sec, our paid stream will be 3 megabit / sec. We're offering much better stream quality than any other tournament can give you!Having the paid stream be only a 3 megabit stream means the vast majority of EU viewers wont be able to watch it seeing as it is also on JTV. If you set your stream bitrate too high all you are doing is limiting the number of viewers who can watch you. The EU market still has a hard time watching on JTV especially on the higher quality higher bitrate streams. Even though JTV provides quality scaling having the 3mbit as your base is not a good idea if you're going to go that high provide a second high quality stream option as well. This will also allow for a backup stream in case the primary one has any issues. 3) Stop responding sarcastically to money questionsReplies like "We're sponsored by pennies we picked up in the various ponds and fountains around the world. The money is there and ready to be given out to some amazing players!" come off as amazingly unprofessional. Instead try saying that the sponsors for this amazing league are still working with us and do not wish to be named at the current time. None the less I'm sure you will be excited once we are able to name them as they are some big companies in their industry. This simple change in attitude gives a lot of confidence to your readers because it is much more professional. GSL didn't name their sponsors straight off the bat either but they also did not respond sarcastically to every question about it. In short be professional responding sarcastically again only turns people off and brings into question the validity of your league. 4) Be open with your league formatThere is a lot of criticism about your league format and you've yet to say that you're even willing to change it for the next season. Instead of defending your format to the death why not say that you're willing to look into improving the format as much as possible in season 2 and in the time in between. Once again just saying you are willing to do it gives much more confidence than the three of you lined up on the streets weapons drawn and saying NO WE LOVE OUR FORMAT! One major factor is find a way to include more open slots as more open qualification means less of a big deal about needing to be on a team and the team limits. As if you're good enough you can make it through on the open slots when there's more than just one then not having a team isn't as big of a deal. Yes they'd prefer to be invited in almost every instance but having every player who can't make it in through an invite competing over one open slot is kind of silly In conclusion I don't want to see your tournament fail as generally when a major tournament fails it turns off potential sponsors for everyone. So please look into upping your level of professionalism when you speak to the community. Currently your attitude towards PR seems to include way too much sarcasm and saying that we thought it was a good idea. Ok see'ing that no one has answered you yet I'll do my best to despite not being that involved I do have some idea of this from things read and what not! Anyway on to answer these questions / points of concern. 1. Its a good point we have a few things that are out there that are a bit different. However the main important things, the dates, what the pole is used for, the prizes, the format I believe Russell explained it full on State of the Game. However it was said on SoTG that the top 16 will be comprised of the top 10 from the divisions, 5 from playoffs and 1 from the Open Tournament, that was then later countered by just 15 from the divisions. I don't know about this and hopefully it will be addressed, but keep in mind that the site and the rules will clear up as this gets closer. However yes, contrary information is a pain, but we can all hear things we want to hear and take what someone says out of context. Either way hopefully we can get them all to work together a bit more closely. 2. They said also they are spending a lot a LOT of money on the technical side of the equation. I'm sure they woudln't do such high kb/sec if they can't handle it. If you can't handle that high, you can always watch the free stream which will be amazingly high still anyway. No point in complaining about good stuff there! (If this completely falls apart due to technical issues then yea your point is super valid, but until then heres hoping!) 3. Sarcasm is of course not that professional. This is common sence and I agree that on important threads there shouldn't be any sarcasm. Especially when stating the rules and so forth. However come on how can you hate on Xeris he is amazing. On the actual site (NOT TL.NET) they aren't sarcastic at all and I'm hoping the news letter won't be either. Hopefully with the sarcasm here they will just build hype. Nothing wrong with being a little sarcastic here imo! 4. Do you expect them to say "no we hate the format we've already fixed with the sponsors and everyone involved" ? No if they have a format set in stone at least for the first season (I'm not sure if it is, I'm just saying) then they can and should stick by it. I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the 5 limit per team, but honestly in a Nazgul quote earlier he talked about how SC2 ISNT like the olympics and SC2 Teams aren't like countries that should be limited like the olympics. HOWEVER this is EXACTLY how it is. Teams practice together, teams can get the same style and generally players on the same team (say 2 terrans) will practice alot together and gain alot of knowledge from each other. In the Olympics say they want the BEST runners in the whole world, why don't they just say SCREW YOU EVERY COUNTRY NOW IN AFRICA and simply take the best runners from there? Its because they want the backstory, the diversity, the hope for a small player from a small country (yes I mixed metaphors) ((is that a metaphor? screw english class) to do well in the league. If every player from say Team X (Aka KOREA) was in here then it would be the best 50 players from korea, They don't want that, and neither do we honestly we have the GSL for that. They want to do this with a set business mind already placed. Everyone who keeps saying "Hey your messing with the team structure!!!!" is looking at this backwards already. GSL did the same team, they forced teams to pick there "BEST" to go to Korea. No teams were able to send their entire roster over to Korea how is this any different? I know I got off point 4, but there you have my explanation. I think I'll blog about this later as a counter to Nony's long post on the counter of what I just brought up. I'll say as a former player of root I would have been in a team with more then 5 "star" players so I can feel your pain team liquid, but seriously send the players not in NASL to GSL and relax. Enjoy life and hopefully you took the time to read this post, because its what I really believe in. However if they want more players from more teams meh its their choice its their tournament. Find sponsors and organize your own 400,000$ league the next time you want to complain. Peace. Sheth I <3 you but that reply did not actually add a whole lot. The inconsistency is more then the format, for example Xeris says White Ra can join because Duckload is a team, however Russell said on SoTG that he does not. Hell Xeris was even saying that they would not be pre recording NASL earlier on, which is proven to be false. With the tech side, he is not concerned for it on the NASL side, but the client side. Justin has some big problems with EU, and most countries do not have internet that is 3 meg/sec upload so they would not be able to watch anything but the LQ one, which defeats the purpose of them selling HQ stream's. I know I have 20 meg/up and can't get Justin to work in over 480p, so for me there is no reason to buy the premium package. No one is hating on Xeris, but being rude or sarcastic to people you want to pay $ to you has no place in business. EVER. The 5 player rule may only effect TL and EG right now but will effectively stop a lot of teams from getting more then 5 good players. Not every team has the backing of a multi-national forex trading company, and can afford to send their team to two different places. Also saying "make your own 400k tournament" is just silly.
On the inconsistencies then yea your right, I really don't know what to say about that.
With the tech side, for EU then they just won't be able to get a HQ so it would only help out the US or Asia or whoever can support it. Its not a bad thing to just be helpful for us and its free best streams possible for EU. (I believe Justin TV is the chosen stream site and I don't fully understand why Europeans can't watch HQ there, but I'm not that technical I just think its nice there trying to do their best for the ppl who can watch it like that. And yea for you just buy the cheaper / free one, no harm no foul.
I agree with you on the sarcasm however posting on a Teamliquid Q&A on the what 20th page or something of questions about it isn't too bad and come on you probably laughed the first time you heard that.
The 5 player rule will only last for the one season and will be adjusted. Its simply to provide diversity. Russell on SoTG said that the 15 lowest seats would be done away with, perhaps some of those that are gone will go to TL or EG or w/e so I agree that its not optimum to keep doing, but as a way to keep the first season lively I like it.
Yea me saying that make your own 400k tourney was stupid, but I just hate see'ing all the critiscm and no love for something alot of people put alot of effort into!  now let me post on what chill said ! XD <3 Diamond
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wow, great additional details... can't wait to hear about the Open Format
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United States2095 Posts
On February 25 2011 07:26 Chill wrote:
I think responding to legitmate criticism with "send your players to another tournament and enjoy life" is ridiculous.
Further, you don't have to "find sponsors and organize your own $400,000 league" or accept "meh it's their choice its their tournament" if you have legitimate criticism. For example, if you criticize the design of team liquid, I'm not going to ban you and say "meh go develop your own community".
If everything is in stone then NASL staff can say they are past changes and don't value suggestions or criticism, then we can move on. But I haven't gotten that impression. I find it extremely dismissive to tell everyone to accept anything NASL lays in front of them.
It is legitimate critiscm and help however I was just trying to look at it from a different view. And the enjoy life thing was just an ending I love everyone type of thing I always do. Right now TL already has Huk in Korea, he has already said he won't play cross servers. I know this 5 players thing is a bad rule, but for the first season surely you can see why it makes sence from a business point of view. Diversity = Money. And sence hes already in Korea with Ret(?) there wouldn't be too many problems for TL to just send the others to NASL. And after the first season when TL owns it up and some FXO scrub loses his spot maybe it will go to TL I don't know!
I agree that we shouldn't just accept everything / anything NASL says to us, and I appreciate all the feedback (I'm not a NASL staff just someone who is friends with them) but clearly you can see how painful it is for them that they say BAM SUPRISE!!! and the first thing the community does is send it a 50+ page hate letter on how they don't like how the suprise is set up. And yea me saying find sponsors for your own 400k league was just me ranting and being stupid I apologize. End Semi other rant.
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United States2095 Posts
On February 25 2011 07:28 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Diamond is right selling a HQ stream that people cannot watch is not a good thing because then they feel "why am I buying the HQ if I have to watch the free stream."
You also kind of missed my point on #4 Sheth. I'm not asking them to say they hate their own format but when you're thinking about running a world tournament and people criticize the format you have to be at least open to considering change. This is not admitting that you're weak or wrong or anything it's being receptive to the community. I also only brought up the 5 player rule in context on how you could make a lot of the flak from that go away by improving other things. I was not trying to criticize the 5 player rule at all in this instance so responding to that and not my point is kind of not helpful.
Ah now its clear to me. You mean Euro players /people would buy the HQ stream and find out it doens't work for them. Yea thats a bad idea, really good advice there to look into fixing that. Why didn't u say so in the first place = (
Yea I did completely by pass your #4 to rant on my point sorry lol. Yea sorry I agree with the point that you shouldn't criticise the people simply trying to help. However think of it from their point of view its a pain to get 50 pages of negative and then of course their going to be a little sarcastic because they feel annoyed that no1 is even trying to look at the good so why should they look at the bad. However I agree and I do appreciate your critiscms I think they are very valid hopefully you will look at my arguments and feel somewhat the same way !
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On February 25 2011 07:35 Sheth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:25 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On February 25 2011 07:17 Sheth wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 25 2011 05:56 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 05:35 Chill wrote:On February 25 2011 05:27 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Question:
Are you actually listening to feedback because I can give you a laundry list of things to improve on now or before the 2nd season if you want this to actually succeed but it seems like most of the NASL people are too busy being defensive to listen to actual constructive criticism. Post the list please. 1) Stop talking until you put Xeris, Incontrol, and Russel in the same room.These three guys keep contradicting each other so much it is stupid. The amount of contrary information out there from these sources including between the State of the Game podcast (<3 JP) and the official thread is alarming. This alone takes away a lot of confidence from many people in the validity of your league. 2) Change this:The quality of GSL's high quality paid stream is 650 kb/sec. Our free stream is going to be at 800 kb/sec, our paid stream will be 3 megabit / sec. We're offering much better stream quality than any other tournament can give you!Having the paid stream be only a 3 megabit stream means the vast majority of EU viewers wont be able to watch it seeing as it is also on JTV. If you set your stream bitrate too high all you are doing is limiting the number of viewers who can watch you. The EU market still has a hard time watching on JTV especially on the higher quality higher bitrate streams. Even though JTV provides quality scaling having the 3mbit as your base is not a good idea if you're going to go that high provide a second high quality stream option as well. This will also allow for a backup stream in case the primary one has any issues. 3) Stop responding sarcastically to money questionsReplies like "We're sponsored by pennies we picked up in the various ponds and fountains around the world. The money is there and ready to be given out to some amazing players!" come off as amazingly unprofessional. Instead try saying that the sponsors for this amazing league are still working with us and do not wish to be named at the current time. None the less I'm sure you will be excited once we are able to name them as they are some big companies in their industry. This simple change in attitude gives a lot of confidence to your readers because it is much more professional. GSL didn't name their sponsors straight off the bat either but they also did not respond sarcastically to every question about it. In short be professional responding sarcastically again only turns people off and brings into question the validity of your league. 4) Be open with your league formatThere is a lot of criticism about your league format and you've yet to say that you're even willing to change it for the next season. Instead of defending your format to the death why not say that you're willing to look into improving the format as much as possible in season 2 and in the time in between. Once again just saying you are willing to do it gives much more confidence than the three of you lined up on the streets weapons drawn and saying NO WE LOVE OUR FORMAT! One major factor is find a way to include more open slots as more open qualification means less of a big deal about needing to be on a team and the team limits. As if you're good enough you can make it through on the open slots when there's more than just one then not having a team isn't as big of a deal. Yes they'd prefer to be invited in almost every instance but having every player who can't make it in through an invite competing over one open slot is kind of silly In conclusion I don't want to see your tournament fail as generally when a major tournament fails it turns off potential sponsors for everyone. So please look into upping your level of professionalism when you speak to the community. Currently your attitude towards PR seems to include way too much sarcasm and saying that we thought it was a good idea. Ok see'ing that no one has answered you yet I'll do my best to despite not being that involved I do have some idea of this from things read and what not! Anyway on to answer these questions / points of concern. 1. Its a good point we have a few things that are out there that are a bit different. However the main important things, the dates, what the pole is used for, the prizes, the format I believe Russell explained it full on State of the Game. However it was said on SoTG that the top 16 will be comprised of the top 10 from the divisions, 5 from playoffs and 1 from the Open Tournament, that was then later countered by just 15 from the divisions. I don't know about this and hopefully it will be addressed, but keep in mind that the site and the rules will clear up as this gets closer. However yes, contrary information is a pain, but we can all hear things we want to hear and take what someone says out of context. Either way hopefully we can get them all to work together a bit more closely. 2. They said also they are spending a lot a LOT of money on the technical side of the equation. I'm sure they woudln't do such high kb/sec if they can't handle it. If you can't handle that high, you can always watch the free stream which will be amazingly high still anyway. No point in complaining about good stuff there! (If this completely falls apart due to technical issues then yea your point is super valid, but until then heres hoping!) 3. Sarcasm is of course not that professional. This is common sence and I agree that on important threads there shouldn't be any sarcasm. Especially when stating the rules and so forth. However come on how can you hate on Xeris he is amazing. On the actual site (NOT TL.NET) they aren't sarcastic at all and I'm hoping the news letter won't be either. Hopefully with the sarcasm here they will just build hype. Nothing wrong with being a little sarcastic here imo! 4. Do you expect them to say "no we hate the format we've already fixed with the sponsors and everyone involved" ? No if they have a format set in stone at least for the first season (I'm not sure if it is, I'm just saying) then they can and should stick by it. I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the 5 limit per team, but honestly in a Nazgul quote earlier he talked about how SC2 ISNT like the olympics and SC2 Teams aren't like countries that should be limited like the olympics. HOWEVER this is EXACTLY how it is. Teams practice together, teams can get the same style and generally players on the same team (say 2 terrans) will practice alot together and gain alot of knowledge from each other. In the Olympics say they want the BEST runners in the whole world, why don't they just say SCREW YOU EVERY COUNTRY NOW IN AFRICA and simply take the best runners from there? Its because they want the backstory, the diversity, the hope for a small player from a small country (yes I mixed metaphors) ((is that a metaphor? screw english class) to do well in the league. If every player from say Team X (Aka KOREA) was in here then it would be the best 50 players from korea, They don't want that, and neither do we honestly we have the GSL for that. They want to do this with a set business mind already placed. Everyone who keeps saying "Hey your messing with the team structure!!!!" is looking at this backwards already. GSL did the same team, they forced teams to pick there "BEST" to go to Korea. No teams were able to send their entire roster over to Korea how is this any different? I know I got off point 4, but there you have my explanation. I think I'll blog about this later as a counter to Nony's long post on the counter of what I just brought up. I'll say as a former player of root I would have been in a team with more then 5 "star" players so I can feel your pain team liquid, but seriously send the players not in NASL to GSL and relax. Enjoy life and hopefully you took the time to read this post, because its what I really believe in. However if they want more players from more teams meh its their choice its their tournament. Find sponsors and organize your own 400,000$ league the next time you want to complain. Peace. Sheth I <3 you but that reply did not actually add a whole lot. The inconsistency is more then the format, for example Xeris says White Ra can join because Duckload is a team, however Russell said on SoTG that he does not. Hell Xeris was even saying that they would not be pre recording NASL earlier on, which is proven to be false. With the tech side, he is not concerned for it on the NASL side, but the client side. Justin has some big problems with EU, and most countries do not have internet that is 3 meg/sec upload so they would not be able to watch anything but the LQ one, which defeats the purpose of them selling HQ stream's. I know I have 20 meg/up and can't get Justin to work in over 480p, so for me there is no reason to buy the premium package. No one is hating on Xeris, but being rude or sarcastic to people you want to pay $ to you has no place in business. EVER. The 5 player rule may only effect TL and EG right now but will effectively stop a lot of teams from getting more then 5 good players. Not every team has the backing of a multi-national forex trading company, and can afford to send their team to two different places. Also saying "make your own 400k tournament" is just silly. On the inconsistencies then yea your right, I really don't know what to say about that. With the tech side, for EU then they just won't be able to get a HQ so it would only help out the US or Asia or whoever can support it. Its not a bad thing to just be helpful for us and its free best streams possible for EU. (I believe Justin TV is the chosen stream site and I don't fully understand why Europeans can't watch HQ there, but I'm not that technical I just think its nice there trying to do their best for the ppl who can watch it like that. And yea for you just buy the cheaper / free one, no harm no foul. I agree with you on the sarcasm however posting on a Teamliquid Q&A on the what 20th page or something of questions about it isn't too bad and come on you probably laughed the first time you heard that. The 5 player rule will only last for the one season and will be adjusted. Its simply to provide diversity. Russell on SoTG said that the 15 lowest seats would be done away with, perhaps some of those that are gone will go to TL or EG or w/e so I agree that its not optimum to keep doing, but as a way to keep the first season lively I like it. Yea me saying that make your own 400k tourney was stupid, but I just hate see'ing all the critiscm and no love for something alot of people put alot of effort into! now let me post on what chill said ! XD <3 Diamond
It's not just EU. For example my best friend (who lives in the US) has only a 2 meg download speed, which is common (around here at least). With a 3 meg stream, he cannot use it. But if they offer both say a 3 meg stream and a 1.5 meg stream he would be able to tune into the 1.5 meg. Right now he would be an idiot to buy the HQ stream (not that he likes SC and would buy it, but the point stands)
Repeating yourself sucks I agree, but it's part of life. If they actually had a complete FAQ all in one place (ie not some here, some on NASL.tv, some on SoTG, and some on Inc's stream) would help streamline this a bit.
We are being critical because as esports fans we have seen what happens when a major tournament comes around then bombs, it scares off those big sponsors. Even on small tournaments this happens, remember ifixit.com and the GGI? I know Xeris does, say gg to ifixit.com EVER sponsoring esports anymore. Who knows, they might have been looking into sponsoring an event of this size, now never will (not a fact, just an example).
Also we care, me as much as anyone since I have known about this project since it started and even helped create a lot of the format. I have been against the 5 per team rule since December and when NASL and me parted ways that rule was 100% out, which is sad because this whole shitstorm about the rule could have been avoided for a rule that only really effects two teams, which is just silly.
Plus when people complain, it's because they care and want to see this work (most of the complainers).
On February 25 2011 07:40 Sheth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:26 Chill wrote:
I think responding to legitmate criticism with "send your players to another tournament and enjoy life" is ridiculous.
Further, you don't have to "find sponsors and organize your own $400,000 league" or accept "meh it's their choice its their tournament" if you have legitimate criticism. For example, if you criticize the design of team liquid, I'm not going to ban you and say "meh go develop your own community".
If everything is in stone then NASL staff can say they are past changes and don't value suggestions or criticism, then we can move on. But I haven't gotten that impression. I find it extremely dismissive to tell everyone to accept anything NASL lays in front of them. It is legitimate critiscm and help however I was just trying to look at it from a different view. And the enjoy life thing was just an ending I love everyone type of thing I always do. Right now TL already has Huk in Korea, he has already said he won't play cross servers. I know this 5 players thing is a bad rule, but for the first season surely you can see why it makes sence from a business point of view. Diversity = Money. And sence hes already in Korea with Ret(?) there wouldn't be too many problems for TL to just send the others to NASL. And after the first season when TL owns it up and some FXO scrub loses his spot maybe it will go to TL I don't know! I agree that we shouldn't just accept everything / anything NASL says to us, and I appreciate all the feedback (I'm not a NASL staff just someone who is friends with them) but clearly you can see how painful it is for them that they say BAM SUPRISE!!! and the first thing the community does is send it a 50+ page hate letter on how they don't like how the suprise is set up. And yea me saying find sponsors for your own 400k league was just me ranting and being stupid I apologize. End Semi other rant.
What about EG?
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On February 25 2011 07:17 Sheth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 05:56 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:On February 25 2011 05:35 Chill wrote:On February 25 2011 05:27 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Question:
Are you actually listening to feedback because I can give you a laundry list of things to improve on now or before the 2nd season if you want this to actually succeed but it seems like most of the NASL people are too busy being defensive to listen to actual constructive criticism. Post the list please. 1) Stop talking until you put Xeris, Incontrol, and Russel in the same room.These three guys keep contradicting each other so much it is stupid. The amount of contrary information out there from these sources including between the State of the Game podcast (<3 JP) and the official thread is alarming. This alone takes away a lot of confidence from many people in the validity of your league. 2) Change this:The quality of GSL's high quality paid stream is 650 kb/sec. Our free stream is going to be at 800 kb/sec, our paid stream will be 3 megabit / sec. We're offering much better stream quality than any other tournament can give you!Having the paid stream be only a 3 megabit stream means the vast majority of EU viewers wont be able to watch it seeing as it is also on JTV. If you set your stream bitrate too high all you are doing is limiting the number of viewers who can watch you. The EU market still has a hard time watching on JTV especially on the higher quality higher bitrate streams. Even though JTV provides quality scaling having the 3mbit as your base is not a good idea if you're going to go that high provide a second high quality stream option as well. This will also allow for a backup stream in case the primary one has any issues. 3) Stop responding sarcastically to money questionsReplies like "We're sponsored by pennies we picked up in the various ponds and fountains around the world. The money is there and ready to be given out to some amazing players!" come off as amazingly unprofessional. Instead try saying that the sponsors for this amazing league are still working with us and do not wish to be named at the current time. None the less I'm sure you will be excited once we are able to name them as they are some big companies in their industry. This simple change in attitude gives a lot of confidence to your readers because it is much more professional. GSL didn't name their sponsors straight off the bat either but they also did not respond sarcastically to every question about it. In short be professional responding sarcastically again only turns people off and brings into question the validity of your league. 4) Be open with your league formatThere is a lot of criticism about your league format and you've yet to say that you're even willing to change it for the next season. Instead of defending your format to the death why not say that you're willing to look into improving the format as much as possible in season 2 and in the time in between. Once again just saying you are willing to do it gives much more confidence than the three of you lined up on the streets weapons drawn and saying NO WE LOVE OUR FORMAT! One major factor is find a way to include more open slots as more open qualification means less of a big deal about needing to be on a team and the team limits. As if you're good enough you can make it through on the open slots when there's more than just one then not having a team isn't as big of a deal. Yes they'd prefer to be invited in almost every instance but having every player who can't make it in through an invite competing over one open slot is kind of silly In conclusion I don't want to see your tournament fail as generally when a major tournament fails it turns off potential sponsors for everyone. So please look into upping your level of professionalism when you speak to the community. Currently your attitude towards PR seems to include way too much sarcasm and saying that we thought it was a good idea. Find sponsors and organize your own 400,000$ league the next time you want to complain.
Or, we inform them of our opinion, they realise what the majority of thier customers want, change accordingly, league becomes bigger success than otherwise = everyone wins.
Complaining with constructive critisism should never be a bad thing, mindless hating and bashing are bad but raising concerns are not.
In the end, it is thier choice, and if they feel they know best they should ofc do it they way they think since it is their money and thier tournament.
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Well, I think a very positive thing is how mixed the reception was of when MLG announced they would pick up starcraft here on TL. Then when they announced the rules there was more mixed reception. Look at MLG now, everyone fucking loves it and has faith in them. People just care and are worried. Let's go NASL!!!!!!!
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Calgary25963 Posts
On February 25 2011 07:33 aristarchus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 07:28 Chill wrote:On February 25 2011 07:26 aristarchus wrote:
I really don't understand how the level of physicality in the sport/game is relevant. MMA isn't exactly the most mainstream of sports, and boxing has been one of the most corrupt sports that exists for basically all of recent history. (I don't know much about either, but a quick google search also found extremely detailed rules for the series of tournaments and qualifiers used to pick the US olympic boxing team.) Stop a second and just try to think of individual sports/competitions. Chess is a good example. So is tennis. Also golf. There are amature/minor league tournaments for these, and if you do well you qualify for bigger things.
A sport running on a lot of random one-off tournaments and so forth will of course have lots of invitationals - it's an easy way to get some very good people together for entertaining matches. But when you want to move from fun entertainment to a serious sport part of that transition is adopting fair and objective rules. Tennis is a good example because it is a 1v1 sport with a single elimination bracket. Golf is not because everyone simultaneously competes against each other. Chess also isn't a good example because of the various round robin formats that are used. Why does the exact format change anything? Their league is proposing using a round robin format. Does that make chess more relevant? My point is just that there aren't three people somewhere going "Do you think Venus Williams is good enough? What about the fact that her sister is already competing? Will that be good for drama or bad?" There are specific rules about who gets to play. I think that makes everyone take the outcome of tennis tournaments a lot more seriously. Do you really think that if any of those three things switched to just having big-prize invitational tournaments with no clear selection criteria there wouldn't be massive outrage on the part of the fans?
That's true. Honsetly, I think cherry picking the people in the tournament is just the easiest way to get the league rolling and I think that's where this is all coming from. But I really don't care.
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EPT
