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On January 08 2011 02:51 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 02:47 kamikami wrote:On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote:
Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. You guys should really stop using that argument since it's not true at all. Not just Korea but the whole east Asia region (except Australia) is still sticking to BW (and War3 and AoE). The main reason is Sc2's high price, high system requirement and no LAN support. Sorry about that, I meant "the whole east Asia region (except Australia)" can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present.
Lol... you kids can keep moving on to the "next big thing" with shiny graphics.
Some people don't like change, some people also instantly jumps on the new thing, neither is preferable to the other.
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On January 08 2011 02:52 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 02:51 FrostOtter wrote:On January 08 2011 02:47 kamikami wrote:On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote:
Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. You guys should really stop using that argument since it's not true at all. Not just Korea but the whole east Asia region (except Australia) is still sticking to BW (and War3 and AoE). The main reason is Sc2's high price, high system requirement and no LAN support. Sorry about that, I meant "the whole east Asia region (except Australia)" can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. Lol... you kids can keep moving on to the "next big thing" with shiny graphics. Some people don't like change, some people also instantly jumps on the new thing, neither is preferable to the other.
You kids? I played BW from release. Hell, I'm probably older than you are. I never had a problem with it until SC2 came out. I can just recognize when it is time to move on, and I don't need to resist change out of nostalgia.
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On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote:
I love people who say that SC2 is not mechanically demanding, even though we have yet to see anyone play flawlessly.
Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present.
its been 6 months and people are playing more perfectly than in bw
User was warned for this post
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On January 08 2011 02:55 MuseX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote:
I love people who say that SC2 is not mechanically demanding, even though we have yet to see anyone play flawlessly.
Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. its been 6 months and people are playing more perfectly than in bw
That is in no way a subjective statement, right?
And if people are playing more perfectly than in BW, that kind of torpedoes the "no beautiful games" argument, doesn't it?
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On January 08 2011 02:55 MuseX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote:
I love people who say that SC2 is not mechanically demanding, even though we have yet to see anyone play flawlessly.
Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. its been 6 months and people are playing more perfectly than in bw
I as much as any SC2 fan want to see it thrive, but that's bullshit. Think, "do I know what I'm talking about?" before you speak.
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I'm not trying to hate on old school, die hard BW players here, but it seems a little ridiculous to think that BW can survive another 5-6 years. It is a great game and I'm glad there is such a huge community behind it, but with SC2's release I don't see how it can compete. Maybe in Korea the pro-scene will stay big, but the rest of the world has moved on, I think they should too.
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On January 08 2011 02:57 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 02:55 MuseX wrote:On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote:
I love people who say that SC2 is not mechanically demanding, even though we have yet to see anyone play flawlessly.
Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. its been 6 months and people are playing more perfectly than in bw That is in no way a subjective statement, right? And if people are playing more perfectly than in BW, that kind of torpedoes the "no beautiful games" argument, doesn't it?
No actually it doesn't. Just because one player plays perfectly does not mean the game is dynamic and exciting to watch. And because it is so easy to play perfectly, it makes the likelihood of a comeback far less, which makes gameplay less exciting because the spectator can have a pretty good idea of who is going to win fairly early on as small advantages can turn out to be game deciding.
Also, you're right, old games never retain popularity. I mean who plays that game called chess anymore?
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The question is, why should we move on to an inferior game (at least for now)? Sure, it's a matter of opinion, but if our opinion is such, then what incentive is there exactly? Just to stop "living in the past"? That would be incredibly shallow, not to mention fallacious.
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On January 08 2011 02:55 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 02:52 buhhy wrote:On January 08 2011 02:51 FrostOtter wrote:On January 08 2011 02:47 kamikami wrote:On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote:
Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. You guys should really stop using that argument since it's not true at all. Not just Korea but the whole east Asia region (except Australia) is still sticking to BW (and War3 and AoE). The main reason is Sc2's high price, high system requirement and no LAN support. Sorry about that, I meant "the whole east Asia region (except Australia)" can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. Lol... you kids can keep moving on to the "next big thing" with shiny graphics. Some people don't like change, some people also instantly jumps on the new thing, neither is preferable to the other. You kids? I played BW from release. Hell, I'm probably older than you are. I never had a problem with it until SC2 came out. I can just recognize when it is time to move on, and I don't need to resist change out of nostalgia.
What's the difference between nostalgia and instantly switching over to the new and shiny thing before it's proven? Nothing really. Until SC2 is clearly seen to be a successor to BW, and even then, it's not the "time to move on". Who are you to decide when something or someone should change?
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On January 08 2011 03:04 Enervate wrote:
. I mean who plays that game called chess anymore?
No one compared to the number of people who play Halo.
What's the difference between nostalgia and instantly switching over to the new and shiny thing before it's proven? Nothing really. Until SC2 is clearly seen to be a successor to BW, it's not the "time to move on". Who are you to decide when something or someone should change?
Who are you to decide when something or someone shouldn't change? It works both ways.
Maybe it is just because I can remember that it took a while for BW to become what it is today, and that SC2 is already more interesting for me than BW was-- and it isn't even done being changed yet.
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On January 08 2011 03:13 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 03:04 Enervate wrote:
. I mean who plays that game called chess anymore? No one compared to the number of people who play Halo. Show nested quote +What's the difference between nostalgia and instantly switching over to the new and shiny thing before it's proven? Nothing really. Until SC2 is clearly seen to be a successor to BW, it's not the "time to move on". Who are you to decide when something or someone should change? Who are you to decide when something or someone shouldn't change? It works both ways. Maybe it is just because I can remember that it took a while for BW to become what it is today, and that SC2 is already more interesting for me than BW was-- and it isn't even done being changed yet.
I just like to see how everyone is like "It's been a year and SC2 is NOT the new BW, must be bad."
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Until there is cooperation between the BW and SC2 scenes, there will always be competition between the two games that threatens the overall stability of the Korean SC scene. KeSPA and Blizzard need to get their act together and work out a deal, even if it is detrimental to either one or both of the scenes. Right now, both scenes are completely different entities competing for the same audience, sponsors, and resources. Until the barriers between KeSPA and the SC2 scene are broken down, it will remain this way.
If the games compete, growth will be slow and destructive damage will always be a possibility for either scene. If both scenes cooperate, however, both SC2 and BW can flourish without risk of one being artificially killed off.
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One thing you can learn from this at least, always shoot for too small when you're renting a stadium. It looks better to have a line out the door than empty seats, no matter what the numbers are. Hopefully GSL can get past this bad PR.
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I wonder who the E-Sports personel were that declared it a failure, Kespa has already shown a taint in some of the E sports Journalists, who put out only what kespa say. If it was from those two journalists then i would discount them greatly about the "failure" but if it was others then i would be a little more inclined to believe them. I don't consider it a failure as much as an optimism.
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On January 08 2011 03:13 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 03:04 Enervate wrote:
. I mean who plays that game called chess anymore? No one compared to the number of people who play Halo. Show nested quote +What's the difference between nostalgia and instantly switching over to the new and shiny thing before it's proven? Nothing really. Until SC2 is clearly seen to be a successor to BW, it's not the "time to move on". Who are you to decide when something or someone should change? Who are you to decide when something or someone shouldn't change? It works both ways. Maybe it is just because I can remember that it took a while for BW to become what it is today, and that SC2 is already more interesting for me than BW was-- and it isn't even done being changed yet.
If it's so subjective, why label BW fans as backwards and nostalgic. Is it so hard to believe that some people still genuinely enjoy playing and/or watching BW more than SC2? You seem to be optimistic about the development of SC2, but not everyone shares that optimism, so it shouldn't be surprising that some people don't accept SC2 yet.
On January 08 2011 03:18 Rah wrote:
One thing you can learn from this at least, always shoot for too small when you're renting a stadium. It looks better to have a line out the door than empty seats, no matter what the numbers are.
Haha, so true.
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I think people also need to have a reality check on the influence of e-sports and the connection to Blizzard, and how all that relates to the success/failure of a game.
Blizzard is a major company that currently operates some of the biggest and most successful games in the world. They have confirmed over 3 million sales of SC2 - and that was in September. One can only assume at this point that number is over 4 million. As much as we want to say things like "if eSports dies cause Blizzard won't support it then SC2 will die!"
No it won't. Brood War is not successful because of the eSport scene. Broodwar was successful before eSports were anything big at all.
People need to separate the success and failure of SC2 and BW from the success and failure of the respectable eSport. Of the 4 million+ people that own SC2 how many do you think follow the pro scene at all? I mean most of those people don't care, and Blizzard's job isn't to foster eSports that will generate them no real money in the long run. That is just the reality of it.
So SC2 is not going to fail. And it isn't reasonable to expect them to do anything to SC2 to help the eSport scene if it doesn't also help their bottom line. People making comments like "make it mechanically harder..." well you don't sell 4 million copies of a game these days that nobody can play at a respectable level without 200APM. Most people don't have 100APM.
They are trying to market to the next generation gamer. Not updating things like mechanics will just be frustrating and that would lead to the failure in the game much more than easier mechanics will. Look at Broodwar, so few people could really play it at a high level by the end of the game people were mostly playing fastest money maps and customs.
With expansions coming and the fact the game is already ridiculously successful SC2 isn't going to fail. 2 years from now it isn't going to be a bunch of empty servers and 20 minute waits to get a ladder game.
tl;dr - The success and failure of eSports for both SC2 and BW is completely separate issue from the success or failure of SC2. SC2 is already successful as a game, and will continue to be for a long time regardless of if it is a major eSport or not.
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On January 08 2011 03:22 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 03:13 FrostOtter wrote:On January 08 2011 03:04 Enervate wrote:
. I mean who plays that game called chess anymore? No one compared to the number of people who play Halo. What's the difference between nostalgia and instantly switching over to the new and shiny thing before it's proven? Nothing really. Until SC2 is clearly seen to be a successor to BW, it's not the "time to move on". Who are you to decide when something or someone should change? Who are you to decide when something or someone shouldn't change? It works both ways. Maybe it is just because I can remember that it took a while for BW to become what it is today, and that SC2 is already more interesting for me than BW was-- and it isn't even done being changed yet. If it's so subjective, why label BW fans as backwards and nostalgic. Is it so hard to believe that some people still genuinely enjoy playing and/or watching BW more than SC2? You seem to be optimistic about the development of SC2, but not everyone shares that optimism, so it shouldn't be surprising that some people don't accept SC2 yet.
The same reason you seem to think that optimism is misguided is the reason that I think BW is nostalgic.,.it is called an opinion. Something being subjective does not mean it is an invalid point of view, it is just means that there is no objectivity within it-- and usually subjectivity is so strong that we will argue it as if it is objective.
My main problem with the remaining BW fans is the insistence that mechanics are synonymous with interesting gameplay. If everyone wants demanding mechanics, why not play Warcraft II or an even older game? When are people going to realize that BW's design was due to the limits of technology, not the way the creators necessarily wanted it to be played?
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I think less people showing up to GSL events has to do with how the matches are played so close to each other. There's a few matches pretty much every day and every week. Since they're played out so fast and the season is over so quick, the audiences will only attend big events such as finals and probably get used to watching the games online at home.
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The part I don't get is the people who seem to want SC2 to fail. I mean, I understand the hardcore BW fanboy aspect, but there's really no reason that SC2 has to cannibalize BW's audience. SC2 brought in a ton of new people who never played BW at all, the two can coexist in harmony just fine with different audiences.
This is a really self-destructive attitude because, if there's one thing Blizzard has proven, it's that they are greedy, vindictive, and myopic. If SC2 fails, what do you think Blizzard will do to BW (I mean aside from all the stuff they're already doing)? It's clear that the company is like a small child that needs to be distracted with rewards to keep them from misbehaving. If SC2 fails, BW will suffer - more than it's already suffering. That's clearly not good - not good for the BW fanboys, not good for Korea, not good for anyone.
So all the people going "hurp, SC2 is just not a spectator sport, of course it's going to fail", this is the completely wrong attitude to have. You should be hoping and praying that SC2 succeeds beyond anyone's imagination, so that Blizzard will be satisfied and move on and leave BW alone. Personally I hope that both games succeed because I think they are almost entirely different games, in terms of spectating at least, but there are a lot of obstacles in the way of their success, most notably Blizzard itself.
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On January 08 2011 03:39 Krigwin wrote:
The part I don't get is the people who seem to want SC2 to fail. I mean, I understand the hardcore BW fanboy aspect, but there's really no reason that SC2 has to cannibalize BW's audience. SC2 brought in a ton of new people who never played BW at all, the two can coexist in harmony just fine with different audiences.
This is a really self-destructive attitude because, if there's one thing Blizzard has proven, it's that they are greedy, vindictive, and myopic. If SC2 fails, what do you think Blizzard will do to BW (I mean aside from all the stuff they're already doing)? It's clear that the company is like a small child that needs to be distracted with rewards to keep them from misbehaving. If SC2 fails, BW will suffer - more than it's already suffering. That's clearly not good - not good for the BW fanboys, not good for Korea, not good for anyone.
So all the people going "hurp, SC2 is just not a spectator sport, of course it's going to fail", this is the completely wrong attitude to have. You should be hoping and praying that SC2 succeeds beyond anyone's imagination, so that Blizzard will be satisfied and move on and leave BW alone. Personally I hope that both games succeed because I think they are almost entirely different games, in terms of spectating at least, but there are a lot of obstacles in the way of their success, most notably Blizzard itself.
What more could blizzard do to hurt bw than what it's already doing?
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